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RE: An example of why our military loves the press .... - 11/2/2007 9:32:24 PM   
herfacechair


Posts: 1046
Joined: 8/29/2004
Status: offline
DMFParadox,


I disagree with your insinuation that the effects of the reconstruction can be seen very quickly before we carry out that reconstruction.  And I also disagree with your insinuation that things wouldn’t improve in the long run.
Simply put, things started improving almost immediately as soon as we completed the invasion. People who’ve made more than one trip to Iraq have noticed improvements.

The reality is that despite what the news reports say, people have came back and reported changes, POSITIVE changes that they didn’t see before.

The trend is constant improvement. This is substantiated by politicians who’ve gone to the area more than once.

This trend looks like it’s going to continue, whether you agree or not. Project that trend out, and you’re going to see improvements. Mark my words.

That’s reality. NOTHING works exactly as planned. Like I’ve said in previous posts, the Pentagon came up with plans for every hotspot they could think of that’ll receive US involvement. These plans even include a post operation plan. However, almost immediately after these plans are carried out, difference already show up. Differences that result because simple things that the planners couldn’t anticipate, and practically couldn’t anticipate, ended up happening.

And it doesn’t matter whether you commit yourself to any of the points or not, or what you decide to cover. I’m going to have the exact same assessment after our exchange that I had before I entered this thread.

On the point about Iraq during the transition from the old regime to a new governing body. Anytime you assign someone, or an organization, to manage contract law, and money accountability, you’re going to have one or two main outcomes. Someone that drops the ball, and someone that doesn’t drop the ball.

This is applicable in other areas as well.

Now, I’ve held an accounting position before, where I had to manage money for the government. Having someone that managed contracts, and not drop the ball, is no guarantee. That’s the case here in the US, and that’s the case overseas.

You might be paranoid about keeping a tight lid over everybody that manages and disburses money to these contractors. But I highly doubt that you’re going to maintain effective control over all of them. I never met such an individual while I managed allot of money for the government.

Contract law isn’t always specific, or black and white. In many instances, there’s allot of holes that you could drive a semi through. There’s allot of people that burn here in the US for dropping the ball on contract related issues.

And it gets worse when the contractors subcontract some of their jobs out to subcontractors, who turn around and do the same. Expecting that this wouldn’t happen in Iraq is asinine.

They can’t account for allot of money in Iraq? Join the club, many US contractors ended up being penalized because they lost track of where their money went, here in the U.S.

I’m not defending the people that caused this to happen, just telling you that this happens.

Yes, we live in the 21st century, with more advanced technology and systems, and management systems that are later versions of what we had in the 20th century. But we’re STILL humans, capable of doing things that humans are capable of doing.

Twentieth Century technology didn’t wipe out the potential for corruption, the type of corruption that’s been around for thousands of years. Doesn’t matter if we have the latest contracting, or many handling system in the block. If someone’s going to commit fraud, or be negligent, money is going to get lost.

As for your statements on civil infrastructure. That infrastructure spent decades in decay. And the damage resulting from that decay was HEAVY before we began the invasion. Expecting us to work miracles with that infrastructure in just four to five years is like doing a full scale surgery with just a first aid kid. Not happening.

On the insurgency, they’re getting their butts handed to them. Even if the insurgency is growing, they’re FRACTURING and fighting each other. We’ve even got reports that the insurgency is breaking away from the core insurgency, siding with us, and fighting against their former parent insurgency group in greater numbers.

They’ve been doing this little by little before, but this has picked up during the surge, with more and more breaking away from the insurgency and fighting on our side.

And I had to shake my head at your referencing front line reports at Iraqi view toward how the occupation was handled. Despair? NO. Frustration? YES. That kind of frustration is bound to happen when it takes forever to get some semblance of normality.

But, deep down inside, the majority of these Iraqis would rather go through what they’re going through now rather than put up with what they had to put up with under Saddam.

Mess? Negative. The reality is that if you’re going to build a democracy from what was once a brutal dictatorship, that was around for decades, you’re going to have some hardships. Especially in an environment when you have a drastic minority - the insurgency - trying to make things difficult for everybody.

Again, Iraq was a pressure cooker under Saddam Hussein. It was a ticking time bomb waiting to happen, and it would’ve happened after Saddam’s reign. Our invasion prevented that reality, and made it “explode” with less pressure.

Your statement that “it should’ve never been considered that it would take years to rebuild” doesn’t reflect reality. Simple common sense, someone spends decades allowing infrastructure to decay, you’re not going to fix that overnight. Or in just four years. Isn’t happening, not by a long shot.

And the Bush Administration anticipated that this was going to be a long drawn out project. Something he alluded to when he said that major combat operations were over. (Nothing said about minor combat operations being “over”).

Negative on our destroying his medical, sanitation, and transportation through neglect. That was going on under Saddam, who let his infrastructure, including hospital, sanitation, transportation, and other things deteriorate for decades.

Saddam’s medical and sanitation programs were a joke. Of important note, they were going to amputate one of the U.S. soldiers that was under their custody. Yet, when that same POW entered a western hospital, amputation was no longer an option.

No, Saddam allowed those to deteriorate, as he funneled more money into his pet projects. Transportation? His military maybe. Those weren’t fine under Saddam. And we didn’t destroy them through neglect, they were already destroyed through Saddam’s neglect before we got there.

And now we have the task of reconstructing an infrastructure that’s been decaying for decades prior to our arrival.

The idea that Iraq was the pride of the Middle East with Saddam in charge doesn’t reflect reality. If you were talking about the ancient times, I’d agree with you. But we’re talking about Saddam’s Iraq. NO.

Iran was doing better, so was Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, Syria, and Jordan.

Also, since the invasion, Iraq’s economy and standard of living went up. Again, this is evidenced by one reporter’s observation that he noticed more people with cell phones, and Satellite Dishes on his second trip there than what he saw during his first trip.

Under Saddam, they didn’t have a “stable” life where they could take care of their modern lifestyles. They lived in fear. One human shield noticed that people were afraid to answer phones, afraid that it would be from the intelligence, or police. One guy told a human shield that he didn’t care if we bombed these homes, so long as we got rid of Saddam.

Not much for being “too invested” in a stable, modern lifestyle when you tell someone that you don’t care if the invading nation blows your home away at the same time it gets rid of your leader.

Minimum ethnic strife? It was there, building pressure. Saddam’s government acted as a pressure cooker. The longer that pressure build, the harder it was going to explode. In a sense, we made it “explode” sooner. Had it exploded later, without our invading Iraq, the consequences would’ve been worse.

Saddam allowed Iraq to be a hole in the ground. And those doctors and lawyers would’ve been contributing to a larger bloodshed than what we’re seeing now had that Saddam Pressure cooker been allowed to build up enough pressure to blow up on its own.


quote:



Here's a documentary of Fallujah:
http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=06/01/25/155226


No thanks, I have the military’s perspective on Fallujah. They have this talented ability to tell it like it happened, and mention things the media refuses to mention to us. Based on your argument, I’m dismissing that documentary as biased.

Now, I could see where you’d say that you’d put more fire into this argument if you was in the war.

One of the reasons to why I put allot of fire into an Iraq War argument is that I’m a veteran of the Iraq War. And when someone tells me that an operation that I took part in, that I believed in, still strongly believe in, is “wrong”, I’m going to be up and arms. And I’m going to argue with them till kingdom come.

Especially if I notice that their arguments doesn’t reflect first hand accounts of what’s happening over there.

I noticed that you rely on media coverage. Doesn’t matter if it’s from both sides. I don’t just base my position on Iraq on what the media says. I also base it on what the military, and on what many people who’ve been there for a long time, multiple times, say.

Because I don’t trust the media to give me the complete picture of what’s going on in Iraq.

Doesn’t matter if you believe that the reconstruction is abysmal. The facts indicate that we’re making progress in Iraq with regards to reconstruction, and this fact is recognized by both sides of the argument.

Well, my side of the argument and those on the other side of the argument who actually go there to see for themselves what’s going on.

Saying that our reconstruction efforts are “abysmal” because of the things that you mentioned is like saying that the forest is ugly, because the few trees you’re looking at are ugly. Never mind that the rest of the trees in the forest aren’t.

Now, I wouldn’t ask you to put money to your mouth and go over there to fix it, but thanks for the suggestion, I might change my mind and use that. If not on you, the next person that I debate who argues your position.

I’ve debated with people over the past four years who argued many of the same things you argued here. Many of them have done more than you in advancing that argument, doing what you said you didn’t feel like doing here, and providing one documentation after another to try to prove their point.

In each instance, I was able to expose their argument’s flaws, as well as use their documentations AGAINST them and in support of what I said.

And I know that if you tried the same thing, history will repeat itself with how I end up rebutting their statements.


DMFParadox: So if you really want to convince me that our efforts are where they should be

This may come as a surprise, but I have absolutely NO INTENTIONS of convincing you of anything. Likewise, I’m going to have the exact same assessments, that I've argued here, after this argument that I held before I entered this thread.

Which should speak volumes about the luck the people I’ve debated with before had in getting me to “see things” their way on this topic over the past four years.

I’m just in this for the debate. Not for the discussion, not for the discourse, but for the debate. And to present the other side of the story for someone in the middle reading this exchange.

Despite your statement that you’d vote to “hang” the man, both fact and common sense would vote to acquit.


< Message edited by herfacechair -- 11/2/2007 9:45:03 PM >

(in reply to DMFParadox)
Profile   Post #: 421
RE: An example of why our military loves the press .... - 11/2/2007 9:40:59 PM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline
quote:


This trend looks like it’s going to continue, whether you agree or not. Project that trend out, and you’re going to see improvements. Mark my words.


Ok. What are you using to measure that?

Let's take some metrics into consideration.

Biological:

Population & Live Births per Capita.
Infant Mortality Rates.
Childhood Mortality Rates.
Average Lifespans per demographic group.
Average Caloric Intake
Infectious Disease Rates

Economic:

Number of hours each day of residential electricity. Cost per hour.
Number of hours each day of residential potable water. Cost per hour.
Number of hours each day of sewage treatment. Cost per hour.
Mobile Phone Availability/Cost
Broadband Internet Availability/Cost
Per Capita Income.
Availability of Fresh Produce/Cost
Availability of Imported Product/Cost
Availability of Staple Foods/Cost
Unemployment rates

Political:

INCLUDE POLITICAL REQUIREMENTS UNDER US LAW: Currently at 17/100. 17 out of 100 == Failure.

...

You get the idea.

So, what I'm looking for is PROVABLE PROGRESS. You can handwave all you want, but until we see real numbers, ALL THAT TEXT YOU WROTE, isn't worth the time to read.




_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to herfacechair)
Profile   Post #: 422
RE: An example of why our military loves the press .... - 11/2/2007 9:43:31 PM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: herfacechair

mnotttertail: yep, you seem to insinuate that the blow out is on one side.

No insinuation here. I’m making factual statements. One side is looking at real world data, has access to information that the other side doesn’t have access to, and is making an assessment that matches reality.

As opposed to the detracting side, which is going out of its way to ignore the facts, and geostrategic realities in favor of cherry picking questionable data and arguments.

Then, when you come back and present the facts to that side of the argument, they go into melt down and do what people that I argue against typically do.

No, this isn’t an insinuation, but calling a spade a spade. If the other side of the argument would just quit frothing at the mouth over their hatred over Bush, and their dislike against the conservatives, and start seeing the threat that we actually face, they’d realize that what my side of the argument is saying is spot on.


mnotttertail: Mordant is not commensurate to legitimate.

Mordant doesn’t describe the argument that I present. A fact is a fact is a fact. “A” is “A”, whether you agree with it or not. Dismissing it as “not being equal” to legitimate doesn’t make it other than “legitimate.”

mnotttertail:  Examining the 12 years before the current war,

Examining the 12 years before the current war, we had people living under so much tyranny and oppression that people lived in fear of their lives. This was fear of the GOVERNMENT. It got to the point to where people were afraid to answer the phone.

Just look at one of the crimes that Saddam went on trial for. Summarily executing people in a town where there was an assassination attempt. Group punishment. Not to mention the torture that people in this town had to endure.

It got to the point to where people were wishing that the bombing would start soon, otherwise they’d kill themselves.

It speaks volumes when a human shield comes back from that country with a totally different outlook than when he entered the country. Especially when that outlook opposes what he agreed with before entering that country.


mnotttertail:  which we helped arm in the 80's and until the time of the war,

WRONG!

We didn’t arm the Iraqis in the 80s. Don’t mistake our giving them intel against the Iranians as our arming the Iraqis. If you want to look at who armed the Iraqis all this time, look to Russia, China, and France.


mnotttertail:  we have to say that they were better off 4 years ago then they are now.

Millions of Iraqis STRONGLY disagree with you. They were NOT better off before the war than they are now.

Just talk to the majority of the troops, and the people, that have spent long periods of time in Iraq, and who’ve made more than one trip to Iraq. They’ll tell you that things in their latest visit were BETTER than when they visited the place last.

And don’t tell me that getting shoved down the plastic shredder, feet first, by the government, is “better” than what they’re putting up with right now.

Their standard of living has gone up since we liberated that country, and their economy has grown faster after the war than before the war.

Heck, looking at our own history, people were saying that we were better off under the British during the aftermath of the Revolutionary War. Look at where we’re at today.

No, they’re better off today than they were four years ago, and that condition will get better in the future.


mnotttertail:  It is interesting that nobody talks about the good things or it doesn't get press or facts in situ are not ever presented because of the liberal media or whatever you gedankens are whining about now.

And it’s a fact that the mainstream media is negligent when it comes to reporting the good happening in Iraq right now.

One common complaint from troops returning from Iraq is that the Iraq they see reported on the News is nowhere NEAR the Iraq they spent a whole year in. And it speaks volumes when the troops have to cattle prod people from the media to film and talk about things that show that what we’re doing is serving the Iraqi well.

In fact, anybody willing to do a commonsense exercise would see what I’m talking about.

There have been leading Democrats who ranted and raved about how “bad” things were going in Iraq. Then make a statement contradicting their earlier positions as they compliment the progress going on in Iraq after they make a trip there.

You see, actually BEING in Iraq makes a BIG difference in a person’s perception. Especially if their opinions on Iraq are mostly based on media reports that represent the end of the straw view compared to the panorama of what’s REALLY going on.

You have a profession that has a higher percentage of Democrat supporters, compared to that of the general public, reporting on an operation supported by Republicans.

I dare you to connect the dots.


mnotttertail:  Fact is; that place was running pretty smoothly before we stuck our beaks in there,

No it wasn’t. It was a pressure cooker waiting to happen. Saddam acted as the pressure cooker. As soon as his reign ended, the successor would’ve ran a government where a bunch of cracks formed.

Iraq under Saddam was a “timebomb” waiting to happen. The longer it waited to explode, the worse the explosion.

Second, I don’t consider a dictatorship as running smoothy. If something was running smoothly, you WOULDN’T need FORCE to keep it running.

Third, why don’t you go to Iraq and tell the majority of their population that things ran smoothly in Iraq before the invasion?

I could go on, but I wouldn’t consider prewar Iraq as “running smooth.”


mnotttertail:  fact is; that there were no WMD,

Negative, that’s not fact.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,120137,00.html

quote:

BAGHDAD, Iraq— A roadside bomb containing sarin nerve agent (search) recently exploded near a U.S. military convoy, the U.S. military said Monday.

Bush administration officials told Fox News that mustard gas (search) was also recently discovered.

Two people were treated for "minor exposure" after the sarin incident but no serious injuries were reported. Soldiers transporting the shell for inspection suffered symptoms consistent with low-level chemical exposure, which is what led to the discovery, a U.S. official told Fox News.

"The Iraqi Survey Group confirmed today that a 155-millimeter artillery round containing sarin nerve agent had been found," Brig. Gen. Mark Kimmitt (search), the chief military spokesman in Iraq, told reporters in Baghdad. "The round had been rigged as an IED (improvised explosive device) which was discovered by a U.S. force convoy."


FACT: WMD consists of nuclear, biological, and chemical agents intended for use during hostilities.

FACT: Both Sarin and Mustard gas were discovered in Iraq post invasion.

FACT: Both Sarin and Mustard gas are chemical agents.


HENCE: IRAQ HAD WMD.

Therefore, the statement that Iraq had “no” WMD is NOT “fact” but FALSE.

Tell you what, copy and paste the below question to your reply, and put an “X” in the appropriate box. You could only choose one answer.

before you saw my first post on this message board, you had NO evidence of MY existence.


Did your not having evidence of my existence before I made my first post prove that I didn’t exist before making my post here? YES [   ] NO [   ]

DON’T reply to this thread until you answer that question per instruction.

mnotttertail:  fact is; the american installed government there aint working for shit.

Wrong on both counts.

First, we didn’t install that government. You could make that argument for the first one. However, it’s the IRAQI PEOPLE that INSTALLED the current government.

Second, there are things that governments in established countries around the world can’t accomplish effectively. Expecting the Iraqi government to do better than what it’s doing right now, given the complexities that they’re facing there, is asinine.

Third, that government IS WORKING. They may have some issues that they don’t agree on, that they’re still debating and hashing. Things like that happen in a Democracy.

Considering that this is a FLEDGELING democracy, your expectations, which ignore growing pains from going from a dictatorship to a democracy, are completely asinine.


mnotttertail:  fact is; ..... ad infinitum.

WRONG . . . ad infinitum

Reasoned argument proving you wrong . . . ad infinitum

More facts proving you wrong . . . ad infinitum

Conclusion that your “fact” is actually an OPINION . . . ad infinitum.


mnotttertail:  Fact is; that we are poorly placed to export our enlightenment to the world,

Don’t mistake your opinion as “fact”.

The fact that thousands of Iraqis braved mortar and death threats to head to their voting stations to cast a vote speaks volumes about your saying that we’re "not" in the proper place to assist other countries in achieving democracy.

Give people, living in dictatorships around the world, a choice, a real choice, and they’ll fight for a democratic government.

Just look at the people trying to escape these dictatorships to countries they see as being democratic.

As the Capa Familia of Western Civilization, a civilization that believes in democracy, it’s in our long term interest to leverage our strength to spread democracy throughout the globe.

Our status as a superpower, sharing interests with other western powers, puts us in a perfect place to help other countries achieve democracy, or move toward that form of government.


mnotttertail:  since we can't even wipe our own ass...

Show me a country that’s PERFECT, and you’ll have an argument.

Using that argument, a parent “shouldn’t” teach their kids anything, because they’re not perfect themselves.

We, as a country, aren’t perfect. But that’s not going to stop us from helping another country from improving it’s lot, especially if doing so solidifies our long term defense.


mnotttertail:  Now, fact is, that dams were figured out before writing, and we can't with the terrible might and deep pockets and shitbreathers with their ass in a swivel chair and their feet in the wastebasket build a fucking dam, or throw up electricity, or introduce toilet paper to a country that don't want us there and haven't really harmed us.

Wrong on all counts.

Again, you’re expecting miracles if you think that we could undo in four years what took someone else three decades to destroy.

Whatever we set out to do, we’ve accomplished. Need a new building? We’ve built it. Need electricity? We’ve routed electricity to more neighborhoods. Again, large sections of that country was without reliable electricity for decades. Expecting us to get the entire country to receive reliable electricity in just the amount of time we’ve been there after they had an ineffective one for decades is completely asinine.

And who said anything about introducing toilet paper? The free market is responsible for that. Nowhere are we forcing them to take toilet paper. Those who have western style toilet bowls may need them. Others with the other type of “toilet” may not be needed.

They clean their hind ends differently over there. We didn’t go to that country to change their toilet habits. Anybody that thinks otherwise is seriously misinformed.

Oh, and for a country that “don’t” want us there? WRONG. The vast majority of the Iraqis WANT us there. It’s the BAD GUYS that don’t want us there.

You see, I don’t listen to the bad guys. I listen to the vast majority of their population, represented by people that come up to our forces and say things like “Thank you” or “Thank for saving us”, or something like that.

If you were living there, you’d notice that its simple common sense that the majority of the Iraqis want us there until their government can do for them, security wise, what our military is currently doing.

This makes sense even to many of those that don’t quite like us, but see us as the lesser of the two evils.

And check this out. The thousands of Iraqis turning against their enemies, and fighting on our side, prove you wrong. If they wanted us out of there, they wouldn’t have turned to our side.


mnotttertail:  Iraq --- WMD--- show me!!!

Read the above link, and explanation. Sarin and Mustard gas, both WMD found in Iraq post invasion.

Or, you could simply talk to the soldier that was affected by Sarin gas use and try telling him that Iraq had “no” WMD. (Love to see what happens afterwards).


mnotttertail:  Iraq---Nucular --show me!!

That’s a non argument considering that we found chemical agents. Those chemical agents alone justify the administration’s arguments that Iraq had WMD.

mnotttertail:  Iraq ---according to our plan for their enlightenment------show me!!!

Go there in 20 years, and you’ll see what I’m talking about now.

mnotttertail:  Iraq a threat to the world stability--show me!!!

http://www.cnn.com/ALLPOLITICS/stories/1998/12/16/transcripts/clinton.html

quote:

President Clinton Statement, December 16, 1998

The hard fact is that so long as Saddam remains in power, he threatens the well-being of his people, the peace of his region, the security of the world.

The best way to end that threat once and for all is with a new Iraqi government -- a government ready to live in peace with its neighbors, a government that respects the rights of its people. Bringing change in Baghdad will take time and effort.
We will strengthen our engagement with the full range of Iraqi opposition forces and work with them effectively and prudently.


http://www.frankenlies.com/truth/bush-did-not-lie.htm

MADELEINE ALBRIGHT, SECRETARY OF STATE, CLINTON ADMINISTRATION: "Iraq is a long way from Ohio, but what happens there matters a great deal here. For the risk that the leaders of a rogue state will use nuclear, chemical or biological weapons against us or our allies is the greatest security threat we face. And it is a threat against which we must and will stand firm. In discussing Iraq, we begin by knowing that Saddam Hussein, unlike any other leader, has used weapons of mass destruction even against his own people." (CNN’s "Showdown With Iraq: International Town Meeting," 2/18/98)

SANDY BERGER, NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER, CLINTON ADMINISTRATION: "Some have suggested that we should basically turn away. We should close our eyes to this effort to create a safe haven for weapons of mass destruction. But imagine the consequences if Saddam fails to comply and we fail to act. Saddam will be emboldened believing the international community has lost its will. He will rebuild his arsenal of weapons of mass destruction, and someday, some way, I am certain, he will use that arsenal again as he has 10 times since 1983." (CNN’s "Showdown With Iraq: International Town Meeting," 2/18/98)

SEN. JOHN KERRY (D-MA): "Saddam Hussein has already used these weapons and has made it clear that he has the intent to continue to try, by virtue of his duplicity and secrecy, to continue to do so. … It is a threat with respect to the potential of terrorist activities on a global basis." (Press Conference, 2/23/98)

mnotttertail:  The plan for the middle east that fixes

I have a better idea. Go back and take as much time as necessary to read what I’ve said on this thread. This time, while cool, calm, and collected. I’ve laid that out for anybody on this forum, who goes through this thread, to see.

mnotttertail:  whatever might be wrong with them--show me!!!

First, that “might” be wrong? You don’t find anything “wrong” with an environment that encourages people to fly planes into buildings, or encourages kids to become homicide bombers?

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1423506/posts

http://www.pmw.org.il/tv%20part8.html First Clip, “Mickey Mouse”.

Could you imagine your kids hearing Big Bird talk about killing? All Clips. Picture your kids watching this instead of the normal after school programs.

http://www.pmw.org.il/tv%20part1.html

He meant that these are people that have no concept of humanity, if the above wasn’t enough for you, check this out:

http://www.magicplants.co.uk/videos/beheadingvideos.html

mnotttertail:  so far, I hear oh----------!!! there is plenty of evidence, or we have fixed it so well that nobody else can fix it------

I’ve presented that evidence throughout this thread. I’ve re-introduced some of that evidence here.

And no, nobody is saying that they fixed it so well that nobody else can fix it.

Reading comprehension would tell anybody reading my posts that my side of the argument is the only side giving a PRACTICAL solution to Iraq. One that doesn’t result in giving our enemies momentum in what they see is a larger campaign to covert the rest of us into radical Muslims.

Until you could prove otherwise, our solutions are better for our long term security, and survival as a nation, civilization, and culture.



not so fast there smut peddler.  it wasnt so many pages ago that you said that I was insinuating.........dont be so goddamn free with your words, slick. If I am you are, and I have the qoute waiting that says you did when you didnt.

When you have no more ambition than to say (and I fucking quote)
quote:


I’m making factual statements. One side is looking at real world data, has access to information that the other side doesn’t have access to, and is making an assessment that matches reality.

without making anything that has any sort of  factual  sort of  even similie, how  do you answer this? I mean the itotasia  here is  welcome to smear the asswipe anywhere they want, you do it, I do it...........but lets us both face this, the neo-con 'vision'is history in less than a year.  you had your run, and regarless of your seeing the truth, your future doesn't seem so bright.

And; it shouldn't, I gotta tell you, you ruined my country worlwide, pissed away my blue sky, and for what?

nothing...........

I am ashamed to have to be counted with you.

A real conservative.

Ron Melby



_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to herfacechair)
Profile   Post #: 423
RE: An example of why our military loves the press .... - 11/2/2007 10:31:10 PM   
herfacechair


Posts: 1046
Joined: 8/29/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

quote:

ORIGINAL: herfacechair

mnotttertail: yep, you seem to insinuate that the blow out is on one side.

No insinuation here. I’m making factual statements. One side is looking at real world data, has access to information that the other side doesn’t have access to, and is making an assessment that matches reality.

As opposed to the detracting side, which is going out of its way to ignore the facts, and geostrategic realities in favor of cherry picking questionable data and arguments.

Then, when you come back and present the facts to that side of the argument, they go into melt down and do what people that I argue against typically do.

No, this isn’t an insinuation, but calling a spade a spade. If the other side of the argument would just quit frothing at the mouth over their hatred over Bush, and their dislike against the conservatives, and start seeing the threat that we actually face, they’d realize that what my side of the argument is saying is spot on.


mnotttertail: Mordant is not commensurate to legitimate.

Mordant doesn’t describe the argument that I present. A fact is a fact is a fact. “A” is “A”, whether you agree with it or not. Dismissing it as “not being equal” to legitimate doesn’t make it other than “legitimate.”

mnotttertail:  Examining the 12 years before the current war,

Examining the 12 years before the current war, we had people living under so much tyranny and oppression that people lived in fear of their lives. This was fear of the GOVERNMENT. It got to the point to where people were afraid to answer the phone.

Just look at one of the crimes that Saddam went on trial for. Summarily executing people in a town where there was an assassination attempt. Group punishment. Not to mention the torture that people in this town had to endure.

It got to the point to where people were wishing that the bombing would start soon, otherwise they’d kill themselves.

It speaks volumes when a human shield comes back from that country with a totally different outlook than when he entered the country. Especially when that outlook opposes what he agreed with before entering that country.


mnotttertail:  which we helped arm in the 80's and until the time of the war,

WRONG!

We didn’t arm the Iraqis in the 80s. Don’t mistake our giving them intel against the Iranians as our arming the Iraqis. If you want to look at who armed the Iraqis all this time, look to Russia, China, and France.


mnotttertail:  we have to say that they were better off 4 years ago then they are now.

Millions of Iraqis STRONGLY disagree with you. They were NOT better off before the war than they are now.

Just talk to the majority of the troops, and the people, that have spent long periods of time in Iraq, and who’ve made more than one trip to Iraq. They’ll tell you that things in their latest visit were BETTER than when they visited the place last.

And don’t tell me that getting shoved down the plastic shredder, feet first, by the government, is “better” than what they’re putting up with right now.

Their standard of living has gone up since we liberated that country, and their economy has grown faster after the war than before the war.

Heck, looking at our own history, people were saying that we were better off under the British during the aftermath of the Revolutionary War. Look at where we’re at today.

No, they’re better off today than they were four years ago, and that condition will get better in the future.


mnotttertail:  It is interesting that nobody talks about the good things or it doesn't get press or facts in situ are not ever presented because of the liberal media or whatever you gedankens are whining about now.

And it’s a fact that the mainstream media is negligent when it comes to reporting the good happening in Iraq right now.

One common complaint from troops returning from Iraq is that the Iraq they see reported on the News is nowhere NEAR the Iraq they spent a whole year in. And it speaks volumes when the troops have to cattle prod people from the media to film and talk about things that show that what we’re doing is serving the Iraqi well.

In fact, anybody willing to do a commonsense exercise would see what I’m talking about.

There have been leading Democrats who ranted and raved about how “bad” things were going in Iraq. Then make a statement contradicting their earlier positions as they compliment the progress going on in Iraq after they make a trip there.

You see, actually BEING in Iraq makes a BIG difference in a person’s perception. Especially if their opinions on Iraq are mostly based on media reports that represent the end of the straw view compared to the panorama of what’s REALLY going on.

You have a profession that has a higher percentage of Democrat supporters, compared to that of the general public, reporting on an operation supported by Republicans.

I dare you to connect the dots.


mnotttertail:  Fact is; that place was running pretty smoothly before we stuck our beaks in there,

No it wasn’t. It was a pressure cooker waiting to happen. Saddam acted as the pressure cooker. As soon as his reign ended, the successor would’ve ran a government where a bunch of cracks formed.

Iraq under Saddam was a “timebomb” waiting to happen. The longer it waited to explode, the worse the explosion.

Second, I don’t consider a dictatorship as running smoothy. If something was running smoothly, you WOULDN’T need FORCE to keep it running.

Third, why don’t you go to Iraq and tell the majority of their population that things ran smoothly in Iraq before the invasion?

I could go on, but I wouldn’t consider prewar Iraq as “running smooth.”


mnotttertail:  fact is; that there were no WMD,

Negative, that’s not fact.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,120137,00.html

quote:

BAGHDAD, Iraq— A roadside bomb containing sarin nerve agent (search) recently exploded near a U.S. military convoy, the U.S. military said Monday.

Bush administration officials told Fox News that mustard gas (search) was also recently discovered.

Two people were treated for "minor exposure" after the sarin incident but no serious injuries were reported. Soldiers transporting the shell for inspection suffered symptoms consistent with low-level chemical exposure, which is what led to the discovery, a U.S. official told Fox News.

"The Iraqi Survey Group confirmed today that a 155-millimeter artillery round containing sarin nerve agent had been found," Brig. Gen. Mark Kimmitt (search), the chief military spokesman in Iraq, told reporters in Baghdad. "The round had been rigged as an IED (improvised explosive device) which was discovered by a U.S. force convoy."


FACT: WMD consists of nuclear, biological, and chemical agents intended for use during hostilities.

FACT: Both Sarin and Mustard gas were discovered in Iraq post invasion.

FACT: Both Sarin and Mustard gas are chemical agents.


HENCE: IRAQ HAD WMD.

Therefore, the statement that Iraq had “no” WMD is NOT “fact” but FALSE.

Tell you what, copy and paste the below question to your reply, and put an “X” in the appropriate box. You could only choose one answer.

before you saw my first post on this message board, you had NO evidence of MY existence.


Did your not having evidence of my existence before I made my first post prove that I didn’t exist before making my post here? YES [   ] NO [   ]

DON’T reply to this thread until you answer that question per instruction.

mnotttertail:  fact is; the american installed government there aint working for shit.

Wrong on both counts.

First, we didn’t install that government. You could make that argument for the first one. However, it’s the IRAQI PEOPLE that INSTALLED the current government.

Second, there are things that governments in established countries around the world can’t accomplish effectively. Expecting the Iraqi government to do better than what it’s doing right now, given the complexities that they’re facing there, is asinine.

Third, that government IS WORKING. They may have some issues that they don’t agree on, that they’re still debating and hashing. Things like that happen in a Democracy.

Considering that this is a FLEDGELING democracy, your expectations, which ignore growing pains from going from a dictatorship to a democracy, are completely asinine.


mnotttertail:  fact is; ..... ad infinitum.

WRONG . . . ad infinitum

Reasoned argument proving you wrong . . . ad infinitum

More facts proving you wrong . . . ad infinitum

Conclusion that your “fact” is actually an OPINION . . . ad infinitum.


mnotttertail:  Fact is; that we are poorly placed to export our enlightenment to the world,

Don’t mistake your opinion as “fact”.

The fact that thousands of Iraqis braved mortar and death threats to head to their voting stations to cast a vote speaks volumes about your saying that we’re "not" in the proper place to assist other countries in achieving democracy.

Give people, living in dictatorships around the world, a choice, a real choice, and they’ll fight for a democratic government.

Just look at the people trying to escape these dictatorships to countries they see as being democratic.

As the Capa Familia of Western Civilization, a civilization that believes in democracy, it’s in our long term interest to leverage our strength to spread democracy throughout the globe.

Our status as a superpower, sharing interests with other western powers, puts us in a perfect place to help other countries achieve democracy, or move toward that form of government.


mnotttertail:  since we can't even wipe our own ass...

Show me a country that’s PERFECT, and you’ll have an argument.

Using that argument, a parent “shouldn’t” teach their kids anything, because they’re not perfect themselves.

We, as a country, aren’t perfect. But that’s not going to stop us from helping another country from improving it’s lot, especially if doing so solidifies our long term defense.


mnotttertail:  Now, fact is, that dams were figured out before writing, and we can't with the terrible might and deep pockets and shitbreathers with their ass in a swivel chair and their feet in the wastebasket build a fucking dam, or throw up electricity, or introduce toilet paper to a country that don't want us there and haven't really harmed us.

Wrong on all counts.

Again, you’re expecting miracles if you think that we could undo in four years what took someone else three decades to destroy.

Whatever we set out to do, we’ve accomplished. Need a new building? We’ve built it. Need electricity? We’ve routed electricity to more neighborhoods. Again, large sections of that country was without reliable electricity for decades. Expecting us to get the entire country to receive reliable electricity in just the amount of time we’ve been there after they had an ineffective one for decades is completely asinine.

And who said anything about introducing toilet paper? The free market is responsible for that. Nowhere are we forcing them to take toilet paper. Those who have western style toilet bowls may need them. Others with the other type of “toilet” may not be needed.

They clean their hind ends differently over there. We didn’t go to that country to change their toilet habits. Anybody that thinks otherwise is seriously misinformed.

Oh, and for a country that “don’t” want us there? WRONG. The vast majority of the Iraqis WANT us there. It’s the BAD GUYS that don’t want us there.

You see, I don’t listen to the bad guys. I listen to the vast majority of their population, represented by people that come up to our forces and say things like “Thank you” or “Thank for saving us”, or something like that.

If you were living there, you’d notice that its simple common sense that the majority of the Iraqis want us there until their government can do for them, security wise, what our military is currently doing.

This makes sense even to many of those that don’t quite like us, but see us as the lesser of the two evils.

And check this out. The thousands of Iraqis turning against their enemies, and fighting on our side, prove you wrong. If they wanted us out of there, they wouldn’t have turned to our side.


mnotttertail:  Iraq --- WMD--- show me!!!

Read the above link, and explanation. Sarin and Mustard gas, both WMD found in Iraq post invasion.

Or, you could simply talk to the soldier that was affected by Sarin gas use and try telling him that Iraq had “no” WMD. (Love to see what happens afterwards).


mnotttertail:  Iraq---Nucular --show me!!

That’s a non argument considering that we found chemical agents. Those chemical agents alone justify the administration’s arguments that Iraq had WMD.

mnotttertail:  Iraq ---according to our plan for their enlightenment------show me!!!

Go there in 20 years, and you’ll see what I’m talking about now.

mnotttertail:  Iraq a threat to the world stability--show me!!!

http://www.cnn.com/ALLPOLITICS/stories/1998/12/16/transcripts/clinton.html

quote:

President Clinton Statement, December 16, 1998

The hard fact is that so long as Saddam remains in power, he threatens the well-being of his people, the peace of his region, the security of the world.

The best way to end that threat once and for all is with a new Iraqi government -- a government ready to live in peace with its neighbors, a government that respects the rights of its people. Bringing change in Baghdad will take time and effort.
We will strengthen our engagement with the full range of Iraqi opposition forces and work with them effectively and prudently.


http://www.frankenlies.com/truth/bush-did-not-lie.htm

MADELEINE ALBRIGHT, SECRETARY OF STATE, CLINTON ADMINISTRATION: "Iraq is a long way from Ohio, but what happens there matters a great deal here. For the risk that the leaders of a rogue state will use nuclear, chemical or biological weapons against us or our allies is the greatest security threat we face. And it is a threat against which we must and will stand firm. In discussing Iraq, we begin by knowing that Saddam Hussein, unlike any other leader, has used weapons of mass destruction even against his own people." (CNN’s "Showdown With Iraq: International Town Meeting," 2/18/98)

SANDY BERGER, NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER, CLINTON ADMINISTRATION: "Some have suggested that we should basically turn away. We should close our eyes to this effort to create a safe haven for weapons of mass destruction. But imagine the consequences if Saddam fails to comply and we fail to act. Saddam will be emboldened believing the international community has lost its will. He will rebuild his arsenal of weapons of mass destruction, and someday, some way, I am certain, he will use that arsenal again as he has 10 times since 1983." (CNN’s "Showdown With Iraq: International Town Meeting," 2/18/98)

SEN. JOHN KERRY (D-MA): "Saddam Hussein has already used these weapons and has made it clear that he has the intent to continue to try, by virtue of his duplicity and secrecy, to continue to do so. … It is a threat with respect to the potential of terrorist activities on a global basis." (Press Conference, 2/23/98)

mnotttertail:  The plan for the middle east that fixes

I have a better idea. Go back and take as much time as necessary to read what I’ve said on this thread. This time, while cool, calm, and collected. I’ve laid that out for anybody on this forum, who goes through this thread, to see.

mnotttertail:  whatever might be wrong with them--show me!!!

First, that “might” be wrong? You don’t find anything “wrong” with an environment that encourages people to fly planes into buildings, or encourages kids to become homicide bombers?

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1423506/posts

http://www.pmw.org.il/tv%20part8.html First Clip, “Mickey Mouse”.

Could you imagine your kids hearing Big Bird talk about killing? All Clips. Picture your kids watching this instead of the normal after school programs.

http://www.pmw.org.il/tv%20part1.html

He meant that these are people that have no concept of humanity, if the above wasn’t enough for you, check this out:

http://www.magicplants.co.uk/videos/beheadingvideos.html

mnotttertail:  so far, I hear oh----------!!! there is plenty of evidence, or we have fixed it so well that nobody else can fix it------

I’ve presented that evidence throughout this thread. I’ve re-introduced some of that evidence here.

And no, nobody is saying that they fixed it so well that nobody else can fix it.

Reading comprehension would tell anybody reading my posts that my side of the argument is the only side giving a PRACTICAL solution to Iraq. One that doesn’t result in giving our enemies momentum in what they see is a larger campaign to covert the rest of us into radical Muslims.

Until you could prove otherwise, our solutions are better for our long term security, and survival as a nation, civilization, and culture.



not so fast there smut peddler.  it wasnt so many pages ago that you said that I was insinuating.........dont be so goddamn free with your words, slick. If I am you are, and I have the qoute waiting that says you did when you didnt.

When you have no more ambition than to say (and I fucking quote)

quote:


I’m making factual statements. One side is looking at real world data, has access to information that the other side doesn’t have access to, and is making an assessment that matches reality.

without making anything that has any sort of  factual  sort of  even similie, how  do you answer this? I mean the itotasia  here is  welcome to smear the asswipe anywhere they want, you do it, I do it...........but lets us both face this, the neo-con 'vision'is history in less than a year.  you had your run, and regarless of your seeing the truth, your future doesn't seem so bright.

And; it shouldn't, I gotta tell you, you ruined my country worlwide, pissed away my blue sky, and for what?

nothing...........

I am ashamed to have to be counted with you.

A real conservative.

Ron Melby







Did you even bother reading what I said with the intentions of understanding what I said?

I stand by my statement with regards to you insinuating things. And this garbage that I’m doing what you are doing is nothing but that, garbage.

I’m reading your posts on this thread, and you’ve yet to present facts to support your position. Take a look at your first statement. I couldn’t tell if you’re mad, drunk, or both.

Yes, I’ve said that you insinuated something, I never denied saying that I said that, I think I even mentioned you as insinuating something again. This isn’t a case of me being “free” with my words, you appear to be having an episode over a non argument, my saying that you insinuated something.

Contrary to your complaint, I’ve done precisely what I said in that quote. I’ve provided you with facts, facts that you completely ignored. If you decide to look at my posts with the intentions of understanding what I’m saying, with a calm, cool, and level, mind, you’d see that I’m providing the goods with regards to the facts, logical reasoning, and a reasoned argument.

Go back, you even quoted my post where I quoted some of those facts.

Don’t mistake my giving you a reasoned argument as my “smearing” anybody. Don’t mistake my destroying your argument as my “smearing” anybody.

There’s no equivalency between giving a reasoned argument, and giving a post like yours that doesn’t even try to present a logical argument. Just repeats of what I see on liberal blogs.

As for your statement about, “you had your run”, again, LOL.

That’s a big negative. I made a projection for Iraq back in 2004, and that projection is still holding as accurate.

My projection for our struggle? That’s still holding, unless people like you get their way and we lose our will to fight.

As for your insinuations that I’m “ruining” this country, I’ve got news for you. Its people like me that are fighting to preserve what’s made us great in the first place. And one of those is our willingness to stick with a challenge, no matter how rough it gets.

Especially with our refusal to give up the will to fight.

And you call yourself a conservative? ROTFLMFAO!

Look, I live in a conservative district, and I was raised by conservatives. Many people on the Internet, and on the streets, recognize me as a conservative.

I’ve debated with allot of people that have identified themselves as liberal. They’ve said pretty much the same things you’ve said here.

You, my “friend”, aren’t conservative. You may be “conservative” by your state’s standards, but NOT by Virginia, or Southern standards. You’re not one of us.

As for your statement about, “you had your run”, again, LOL.

The moment that people like me lose the will to fight, it’ll be the beginning of the end for our civilization. If that happens, remember to say “Allay al Akbar” (sp)(?) When someone screams “Taqhbir!” (sp)(?)

Because if your side of the argument gets its way, like it did during the Vietnam War, the enemy will win.


(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 424
RE: An example of why our military loves the press .... - 11/2/2007 10:32:29 PM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline
Can you learn how to fucking edit your replies?

Maybe you have a point. Who can fucking tell?

Oh, and simply put. If you support Bush Policy, you're NOT A CONSERVATIVE. You're a NEOCON PARTY WHORE.

There's a world of difference. Basically all the REAL CONSERVATIVES were thrown out of the party, when they had the balls to criticize the Neocon Party Whores.

Essentially the same thing Rush did to the Republicans, with his whole "Phony" and "Crazy" fiasco.

< Message edited by farglebargle -- 11/2/2007 10:37:50 PM >


_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to herfacechair)
Profile   Post #: 425
RE: An example of why our military loves the press .... - 11/2/2007 10:37:43 PM   
herfacechair


Posts: 1046
Joined: 8/29/2004
Status: offline
Still waiting for you to answer this question . . .

Before you saw my first post on this message board, you had NO evidence of MY existence.


Did your not having evidence of my existence before I made my first post prove that I didn’t exist before making my post here? YES [   ] NO [   ]

Please copy and paste the question, and mark your answer right next to the Yes or No with an “X”.

This is applicable to the WMD segment of our argument.

(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 426
RE: An example of why our military loves the press .... - 11/2/2007 10:38:39 PM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline
quote:

mnotttertail: fact is; that there were no WMD,

Negative, that’s not fact.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,120137,00.html


negative, that is not only not fact that is anecdotal, you can go over in the corner by your dish and lay down now. 

This is probably where alot of you guys go wrong, it is only fact if you think it, but a generally accepted as not true and even if you understand  pictures and simple english, should  be, if you can find it, avoided, since someone may actually read it.

But cute, give it to luckydog, it is more fact than he has.  so maybe there are 4 or 5 of you here.

Ron


_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to herfacechair)
Profile   Post #: 427
RE: An example of why our military loves the press .... - 11/2/2007 10:43:10 PM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: herfacechair

Still waiting for you to answer this question . . .

Before you saw my first post on this message board, you had NO evidence of MY existence.


Did your not having evidence of my existence before I made my first post prove that I didn’t exist before making my post here? YES [   ] NO [   ]

Please copy and paste the question, and mark your answer right next to the Yes or No with an “X”.

This is applicable to the WMD segment of our argument.




I believe there were blue types before you, in fact they heralded your coming, I beleive there were red ones, this argument does not extend to WMD or you, other than a typist.  I will not answer your poll, I will mark an X in bullshit, there were none...........bad poll


_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to herfacechair)
Profile   Post #: 428
RE: An example of why our military loves the press .... - 11/2/2007 10:43:59 PM   
herfacechair


Posts: 1046
Joined: 8/29/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

Can you learn how to fucking edit your replies?

Maybe you have a point. Who can fucking tell?


I generate my replies on MS Word, then go back and edit my replies before responding.

I won’t present a perfectly composed message, but I do present something that’s easily read. I generate my replies so that even a grade school student could understand what I’m talking about.

I’ve read enough of your posts to know that you need to do a better job at getting your point across, and editing your replies, before telling others that they need to do the same.
If you have problems reading what I posted, then the problem is with your reading comprehension.

I recommend that you have the patience to go through and read my replies with the intentions of understanding what you’re reading. If that’s still an issue, RESIST the urge to read and reply to my posts.

As a standard procedure, I DON’T accommodate people that debate with me.

And yes, I do have a point. Pardon me if I don’t repeat the same thing over and over again without proof.

HINT: Take Pinkme2’s advice before you dish it.

(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 429
RE: An example of why our military loves the press .... - 11/2/2007 10:48:01 PM   
herfacechair


Posts: 1046
Joined: 8/29/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

quote:

mnotttertail: fact is; that there were no WMD,

Negative, that’s not fact.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,120137,00.html


negative, that is not only not fact that is anecdotal, you can go over in the corner by your dish and lay down now. 

This is probably where alot of you guys go wrong, it is only fact if you think it, but a generally accepted as not true and even if you understand  pictures and simple english, should  be, if you can find it, avoided, since someone may actually read it.

But cute, give it to luckydog, it is more fact than he has.  so maybe there are 4 or 5 of you here.

Ron



Are Sarin and Mustard chemical agents? YES [   ] NO [   ]

I’ll give you a hint. When I went through NBC/CBR training, we learned that they were examples of chemical agents. The training manual said the same thing.

Chemical agent, one of those things we had to don the gas mask so that we wouldn’t inhale them.

You could spin this all you want, but that doesn’t change that fact. I’ll be waiting for you to select an answer.
 

(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 430
RE: An example of why our military loves the press .... - 11/2/2007 10:48:04 PM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline
Wait, are you 2 arguing of Iraq WMD?

Simply Put, Bush committed FELONY FRAUD in violation of 18 USC 371, regarding his claims of Iraq being any sort of threat to the US, WMD claims or not. The evidence is overwhelming.

The LEGAL STANDARD is:

quote:


13. A "false" or "fraudulent" representation is one that is: (a) made with knowledge that it is untrue; (b) a half-truth; (c) made without a reasonable basis or with reckless indifference as to whether it is, in fact, true or false; or (d) literally true, but intentionally presented in a manner reasonably calculated to deceive a person of ordinary prudence and intelligence. The knowing concealment or omission of information that a reasonable person would consider important in deciding an issue also constitutes fraud.

14. Congress is a "department of the United States" within the meaning of Section 371. In addition, hearings regarding funding for military action and authorization to use military force are "lawful functions" of Congress.

15. Accordingly, the presentation of information to Congress and the general public through deceit, craft, trickery, dishonest means, and fraudulent representations, including lies, half-truths, material omissions, and statements made with reckless indifference to their truth or falsity, while knowing and intending that such fraudulent representations would influence Congress' decisions regarding authorization to use military force and funding for military action, constitutes interfering with, obstructing, impairing, and defeating a lawful government function of a department of the United States within the meaning of Section 371.


To which I submit the following overt acts in furtherance of a the alleged crime:

Overt Acts

quote:


A. On December 9, 2001, CHENEY announced on NBC's Meet the Press that "it was pretty well confirmed" that lead 9/11 hijacker Mohamed Atta had met the head of Iraqi intelligence in Prague in April 2001, which statement was, as CHENEY well knew, made without reasonable basis and with reckless disregard for the truth, because it was based on a single witness's uncorroborated allegation that had not been fully investigated by U.S. intelligence agencies.

B. On July 15, 2002, POWELL stated on Ted Koppel's Nightline: "What we have consistently said is that the President has no plan on his desk to invade Iraq at the moment, nor has one been presented to him, nor have his advisors come together to put a plan to him," which statement was deliberately false and misleading in that it deceitfully implied the President was not planning an invasion of Iraq when, as POWELL well knew, the President was close to finalizing detailed military plans for such an invasion that he had ordered months previously.

C. On August 26, 2002, CHENEY made numerous false and fraudulent statements including: "Simply stated there is no doubt that Saddam Hussein now has weapons of mass destruction. There is no doubt that he is amassing them to use against our friends, against our allies, and against us," when, as CHENEY well knew, this statement was made without reasonable basis and with reckless indifference to the truth in that the IC's then prevailing assessment was that Iraq had neither nuclear weapons nor a reconstituted nuclear weapons program.

D. On September 7, 2002, appearing publicly with Blair, BUSH claimed a recent IAEA report stated that Iraq was "six months away from developing a [nuclear] weapon" and "I don't know what more evidence we need," which statements were made without basis and with reckless indifference to the truth in that: (1) the IAEA had not even been present in Iraq since 1998; and (2) the report the IAEA did write in 1998 had concluded there was no indication that Iraq had the physical capacity to produce weapons-usable nuclear material or that it had attempted to obtain such material.

E. On September 8, 2002, on Late Edition with Wolf Blitzer, RICE asserted that Saddam Hussein was acquiring aluminum tubes that were "only suited" for nuclear centrifuge use, which statement was deliberately false and fraudulent, and made with reckless indifference to the truth in that it omitted to state the following material facts: (1) the U.S. intelligence community was deeply divided about the likely use of the tubes; (2) there were at least fifteen intelligence reports written since April 2001 that cast doubt on the tubes' possible nuclear-related use; and (3) the U.S. Department of Energy nuclear weapons experts had concluded, after analyzing the tubes's specifications and the circumstances of the Iraqis' attempts to procure them, that the aluminum tubes were not well suited for nuclear centrifuge use and were more likely intended for artillery rocket production.
...



There are more, but since there's no defense for even these first 5, I'll save everyones time and omit them.



_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 431
RE: An example of why our military loves the press .... - 11/2/2007 10:51:58 PM   
herfacechair


Posts: 1046
Joined: 8/29/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

quote:

ORIGINAL: herfacechair

Still waiting for you to answer this question . . .

Before you saw my first post on this message board, you had NO evidence of MY existence.


Did your not having evidence of my existence before I made my first post prove that I didn’t exist before making my post here? YES [   ] NO [   ]

Please copy and paste the question, and mark your answer right next to the Yes or No with an “X”.

This is applicable to the WMD segment of our argument.




I believe there were blue types before you, in fact they heralded your coming, I beleive there were red ones, this argument does not extend to WMD or you, other than a typist.  I will not answer your poll, I will mark an X in bullshit, there were none...........bad poll



Your side of the argument argues that “no” WMD were found based on inspection teams not sighting evidence of such.  My side of the argument argues that “no” evidence doesn’t constitute no existence.

In both cases, you have something that you had no evidence off.

If you’re confident of your position that there were “no” evidence of WMD, then you shouldn’t have a problem answering my question.

Still waiting for you to answer it.


(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 432
RE: An example of why our military loves the press .... - 11/2/2007 10:52:14 PM   
mnottertail


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Joined: 11/3/2004
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OK,  syllable sensei, here is the thing, simple as you are, most of us give up see spot run  a couple weeks after we win the gold star for reading to the class in kindergarden because we were so cute, for Miss Lilly; you know--

then they bother us kinda folk with content....not blue type, which is a rather good gizmo, but the carnival has a tarnish pretty quick on that sort of gimmick


_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to herfacechair)
Profile   Post #: 433
RE: An example of why our military loves the press .... - 11/2/2007 10:55:12 PM   
herfacechair


Posts: 1046
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quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

Wait, are you 2 arguing of Iraq WMD?

Simply Put, Bush committed FELONY FRAUD in violation of 18 USC 371, regarding his claims of Iraq being any sort of threat to the US, WMD claims or not. The evidence is overwhelming.

The LEGAL STANDARD is:

quote:


13. A "false" or "fraudulent" representation is one that is: (a) made with knowledge that it is untrue; (b) a half-truth; (c) made without a reasonable basis or with reckless indifference as to whether it is, in fact, true or false; or (d) literally true, but intentionally presented in a manner reasonably calculated to deceive a person of ordinary prudence and intelligence. The knowing concealment or omission of information that a reasonable person would consider important in deciding an issue also constitutes fraud.

14. Congress is a "department of the United States" within the meaning of Section 371. In addition, hearings regarding funding for military action and authorization to use military force are "lawful functions" of Congress.

15. Accordingly, the presentation of information to Congress and the general public through deceit, craft, trickery, dishonest means, and fraudulent representations, including lies, half-truths, material omissions, and statements made with reckless indifference to their truth or falsity, while knowing and intending that such fraudulent representations would influence Congress' decisions regarding authorization to use military force and funding for military action, constitutes interfering with, obstructing, impairing, and defeating a lawful government function of a department of the United States within the meaning of Section 371.



Negative, Bush didn’t commit felony, fraud, or whatever it is you’re charging him of doing. You failed to prove that last time, and you continued to fail to prove that here. Going through that quote, I don’t see anything that describes Bush’s actions.

< Message edited by herfacechair -- 11/2/2007 11:04:42 PM >

(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 434
RE: An example of why our military loves the press .... - 11/2/2007 11:02:00 PM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: herfacechair

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

quote:

mnotttertail: fact is; that there were no WMD,

Negative, that’s not fact.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,120137,00.html


negative, that is not only not fact that is anecdotal, you can go over in the corner by your dish and lay down now. 

This is probably where alot of you guys go wrong, it is only fact if you think it, but a generally accepted as not true and even if you understand  pictures and simple english, should  be, if you can find it, avoided, since someone may actually read it.

But cute, give it to luckydog, it is more fact than he has.  so maybe there are 4 or 5 of you here.

Ron



Are Sarin and Mustard chemical agents? YES [   ] NO [   ]

I’ll give you a hint. When I went through NBC/CBR training, we learned that they were examples of chemical agents. The training manual said the same thing.

Chemical agent, one of those things we had to don the gas mask so that we wouldn’t inhale them.

You could spin this all you want, but that doesn’t change that fact. I’ll be waiting for you to select an answer.
 


you inhaled yours stateside, you are now displaying an audacity, a goddamn gall to sy that they cannot have any sort of improvements in war over a scimitar because  when you waltz in there with gas and iron and bombs, yours are not wmd and since they have been the obvious radicals all invading countries and shit, you are the world mediator, and only you and yours can hold siegeworks.....

Get fuckin lost dangerous men.  I also am getting the feeling that you aint got no more ambition than to be a cop in real life.............

still no fact presented, I am waiting to check the box until you present a fact, which---------you have not, so no x for you




_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to herfacechair)
Profile   Post #: 435
RE: An example of why our military loves the press .... - 11/2/2007 11:03:05 PM   
herfacechair


Posts: 1046
Joined: 8/29/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

To which I submit the following overt acts in furtherance of a the alleged crime:

Overt Acts

quote:


REPEAT POINT
A. On December 9, 2001, CHENEY announced on NBC's Meet the Press that "it was pretty well confirmed" that lead 9/11 hijacker Mohamed Atta had met the head of Iraqi intelligence in Prague in April 2001, which statement was, as CHENEY well knew, made without reasonable basis and with reckless disregard for the truth, because it was based on a single witness's uncorroborated allegation that had not been fully investigated by U.S. intelligence agencies.

B. On July 15, 2002, POWELL stated on Ted Koppel's Nightline: "What we have consistently said is that the President has no plan on his desk to invade Iraq at the moment, nor has one been presented to him, nor have his advisors come together to put a plan to him," which statement was deliberately false and misleading in that it deceitfully implied the President was not planning an invasion of Iraq when, as POWELL well knew, the President was close to finalizing detailed military plans for such an invasion that he had ordered months previously.

C. On August 26, 2002, CHENEY made numerous false and fraudulent statements including: "Simply stated there is no doubt that Saddam Hussein now has weapons of mass destruction. There is no doubt that he is amassing them to use against our friends, against our allies, and against us," when, as CHENEY well knew, this statement was made without reasonable basis and with reckless indifference to the truth in that the IC's then prevailing assessment was that Iraq had neither nuclear weapons nor a reconstituted nuclear weapons program.

D. On September 7, 2002, appearing publicly with Blair, BUSH claimed a recent IAEA report stated that Iraq was "six months away from developing a [nuclear] weapon" and "I don't know what more evidence we need," which statements were made without basis and with reckless indifference to the truth in that: (1) the IAEA had not even been present in Iraq since 1998; and (2) the report the IAEA did write in 1998 had concluded there was no indication that Iraq had the physical capacity to produce weapons-usable nuclear material or that it had attempted to obtain such material.

E. On September 8, 2002, on Late Edition with Wolf Blitzer, RICE asserted that Saddam Hussein was acquiring aluminum tubes that were "only suited" for nuclear centrifuge use, which statement was deliberately false and fraudulent, and made with reckless indifference to the truth in that it omitted to state the following material facts: (1) the U.S. intelligence community was deeply divided about the likely use of the tubes; (2) there were at least fifteen intelligence reports written since April 2001 that cast doubt on the tubes' possible nuclear-related use; and (3) the U.S. Department of Energy nuclear weapons experts had concluded, after analyzing the tubes's specifications and the circumstances of the Iraqis' attempts to procure them, that the aluminum tubes were not well suited for nuclear centrifuge use and were more likely intended for artillery rocket production.
...
REPEAT POINT




There are more, but since there's no defense for even these first 5, I'll save everyones time and omit them.




Where’s your SOURCE farglebargle?

A. On December 9, 2001, CHENEY announced on NBC's Meet the Press that "it was pretty well confirmed" that lead 9/11 hijacker Mohamed Atta had met the head of Iraqi intelligence in Prague in April 2001, which statement was, as CHENEY well knew, made without reasonable basis and with reckless disregard for the truth, because it was based on a single witness's uncorroborated allegation that had not been fully investigated by U.S. intelligence agencies.

Don’t be fooled by the use of the word “uncorroborated” in this statement. If you’re the ONLY person to witness something, you know for a fact what you witnessed. But if nobody else witnessed what you witnessed, then your statements would be considered “uncorroborated”.

Corroborate indicates that your story matches with what someone else says. This person, who obviously has an ax to grind against the Administration, is making this sound like there’s another observation that OPPOSES this information.

But NOBODY observed the opposite.

The word “allegation” is an attempt, by an experienced attorney, (the author of these charges) uses to try to spin this like someone is making something up.

Not the case.

Czech intelligence officials are adamant that the meeting between Atta and Iraqi intelligence officials took place.

Unless our CIA finds another group of people that could vouch for that, it remains “uncorroborated”, but NOT untrue. See above exame.

The Author assumes what Cheney knew, and what he didn’t know. She arrogantly assumes that her position is a “no brainer”, and that Cheney was deliberately misleading the audience.

Unlike you, I don’t put any confidence in her ESP abilities, or her abilities to know what Cheney’s cognitive processes were.


B. On July 15, 2002, POWELL stated on Ted Koppel's Nightline: "What we have consistently said is that the President has no plan on his desk to invade Iraq at the moment, nor has one been presented to him, nor have his advisors come together to put a plan to him," which statement was deliberately false and misleading in that it deceitfully implied the President was not planning an invasion of Iraq when, as POWELL well knew, the President was close to finalizing detailed military plans for such an invasion that he had ordered months previously.

And Powell’s statement was the truth.

Had you gone to Bush’s desk on July 15, 2002, while Ted Koppel’s Nightline was playing, you wouldn’t have seen any invasion plan on the President’s desk. Heck, you probably wouldn’t have seen anything on his desk but things you’d normally find on a person’s desk when they’re not there.

Had you walked in during the time the President was doing business, you’d see other pressing matters on his desk.

His advisors don’t need to put a plan together for him. The Pentagon looks at hotspots around the world, and generate contingency plans, from evacuation/humanitarian operations to full scale invasion.

This included Iraq.

These plans have been in place for YEARS, long before President Bush became president. And these plans are updated as the geopolitical and geostrategic environment for the area changes.

And given the time that Power made that statement, the President wouldn’t be anywhere NEAR to finalizing something that’s constantly changing.

Again, she’s assuming that her views are a “no brainer” and that Powell saw the same things she saw, and that he was being “deceptive”. This makes her automatically wrong.


C. On August 26, 2002, CHENEY made numerous false and fraudulent statements including: "Simply stated there is no doubt that Saddam Hussein now has weapons of mass destruction. There is no doubt that he is amassing them to use against our friends, against our allies, and against us," when, as CHENEY well knew, this statement was made without reasonable basis and with reckless indifference to the truth in that the IC's then prevailing assessment was that Iraq had neither nuclear weapons nor a reconstituted nuclear weapons program.

Again, not true. After the invasion, both Sarin and Mustard gas were used against our troops. Anybody in the military that’s been through NBC/CBR training would recognize those as chemical agents, thus WMD.

Also, take note of statements made by democrats, such as Clinton:

SEN. JOHN KERRY (D-MA): "Saddam Hussein has already used these weapons and has made it clear that he has the intent to continue to try, by virtue of his duplicity and secrecy, to continue to do so. … It is a threat with respect to the potential of terrorist activities on a global basis." (Press Conference, 2/23/98)

I don’t see Kerry as one of the Defendants, Elizabeth’s bias is plain and obvious.

Also, Cheney wouldn’t be saying that unless the Intelligence Community was feeding him that information. And they weren’t the only intelligence community that accused Saddam of having WMD.

The author is slick here. Cheney said “Weapons of Mass Destruction”. Yet, the author talks about nuclear weapons.

She’s hoping that the reader wouldn’t be smart enough to figure out that three main weapons of mass destruction are nuclear, chemical, and biological. The intelligence community saying that he doesn’t have a nuclear weapon is NOT them saying that he “doesn’t” have WMD.

Again, both Sarin and Mustard gas, both chemical agents, were found post invasion. The only person that’s making an unreasonable statement with reckless disregard for the truth is the author of these charges.


D. On September 7, 2002, appearing publicly with Blair, BUSH claimed a recent IAEA report stated that Iraq was "six months away from developing a [nuclear] weapon" and "I don't know what more evidence we need," which statements were made without basis and with reckless indifference to the truth in that: (1) the IAEA had not even been present in Iraq since 1998; and (2) the report the IAEA did write in 1998 had concluded there was no indication that Iraq had the physical capacity to produce weapons-usable nuclear material or that it had attempted to obtain such material.

Doesn’t matter if IAEA was in Iraq or not. If Saddam didn’t want them to know his true capabilities, they weren’t going to know his true capabilities. This was the case when they were there in 1998, and this was the case when they weren’t there.

This woman seems to forget that Saddam played cat and mouse games with these guys. For example, denying that they had any elements of a nuclear program--right before some Iraqis are caught with elements of a nuclear program. (See Iraq inspection timeline by year).

There was one time when Saddam denied having a certain WMD capability, until some Iraqis slipped and were caught red handed. Then Saddam came out and re-adjusted his claims of what he had.

So, even if the IAEA was in Iraq, they weren’t in the know of what Saddam really had, and what he didn’t have.

The best that they could do is make an assessment based on what they’ve found, and project that.

Saying that there was no indication isn’t saying that something existed.


For example, prior to my making my first post on this message board, you had no indication that I existed.

Using that reasoning, it’s understandable why both Democratic and Republican administrations made the same conclusions with regards to WMD in Saddam’s hands.

President Bush making his judgement based on the IAEA report of 2002 doesn’t make him a liar, or a deceiver. And the IAEA’s conclusions were based on both Saddam’s playing cat and mouse, and what they could extrapolate and project from information that they DID dig up.


E. On September 8, 2002, on Late Edition with Wolf Blitzer, RICE asserted that Saddam Hussein was acquiring aluminum tubes that were "only suited" for nuclear centrifuge use, which statement was deliberately false and fraudulent, and made with reckless indifference to the truth in that it omitted to state the following material facts: (1) the U.S. intelligence community was deeply divided about the likely use of the tubes; (2) there were at least fifteen intelligence reports written since April 2001 that cast doubt on the tubes' possible nuclear-related use; and (3) the U.S. Department of Energy nuclear weapons experts had concluded, after analyzing the tubes's specifications and the circumstances of the Iraqis' attempts to procure them, that the aluminum tubes were not well suited for nuclear centrifuge use and were more likely intended for artillery rocket production.

First red flag, NOTHING is mentioned about what those tubes “actually” were for if they weren’t sufficient for use in a nuclear centrifuge.

Next red flags.

The intelligence community was deeply divided. Meaning, there was a group that strongly believed that they could be used for a nuclear program and there was a group that strongly believed otherwise.

The author places more weight on the side that doesn’t believe that this was the case. This is a no brainer as she disagrees with the President. Then she canvases the assessments she favored in a way that made it look like the entire community agreed with them. Which wasn’t the case.

On the intelligence reports, the same thing. There were at least fifteen intelligence reports written that opposed the idea. But those reports didn’t form a consensus, and the other reports indicated the opposite position.

Again, the author takes the side that argues “no” and canvasses the entire group of intelligence reports.

The third point she makes misses the point behind improvising. Anybody that’s been around the world would see numerous examples of things, that are not well suited for certain purposes, being used for those purposes anyway.

The ones that she agrees with didn’t speak for the entire community, or population sample, of the organizations or papers she brought up.

Meaning, there was enough argument in favor of what the Administration was arguing that under Asymmetrical Warfare, ignoring them in favor of the assumption that we didn’t have a certain threat doesn’t constitute that threat not being there.

Elizabeth, the anti Bush author of these charges, misses that point.

Again, this isn’t fraud, but the commander in chief acting in our security best interest.


F. On September 8, 2002, RUMSFELD stated on Face the Nation: "Imagine a September 11th, with weapons of mass destruction. It's not three thousand, it's tens of thousands of innocent men, women and children," which statement was deliberately fraudulent and misleading in that it implied without reasonable basis and in direct contradiction to then prevailing intelligence that Saddam Hussein had no operational relationship with al Qaeda and was unlikely to provide weapons to terrorists.

Not true. Prevailing intelligence DIDN’T discount an INDIRECT relationship between Saddam and Al-Qaeda. Saddam built Salman Pak, a terror training camp. That camp’s last commander admitted that they took and trained Al-Qaeda in Salman Pak.

During the first Persian Gulf War, Saddam sent 100 terrorists out to attack our interests. Those plots failed.

Ever since the Persian Gulf War, he always saw himself at war with the United States. He was always looking for a way to attack the US where it hurts. In fact, during a TV interview in the mid 90s, they asked him if he had a nuclear weapon.

His response? “Of course not, if I did, I’d send it to Washington D.C.!”

How could he do that without an intercontinental ballistic missile? Easy, a member of a terrorist organization’s martyrdom brigade.

Osama Bin Laden was looking on getting his hands on a WMD that’ll wreck mass casualties on US soil.
Their planing the 9/11 attacks was partly in response to their dissatisfaction with the low U.S. casualty rates at overseas U.S. interests.

Those who say that they couldn’t imagine Osama and Saddam working together, that they couldn’t imagine that Saddam would give Al-Qaeda WMD, miss the point behind the saying, “An enemy of my enemy is a friend.” THAT’S an ARAB saying.

We provided aid to the Soviet Union during World War II, two countries whose ideologies were further apart than that between a Shiite and a Sunni. Only a fool would assume that no such relation could form between Saddam and Al-Qaeda.

Under asymmetrical warfare, a joint Al-Qaeda and Saddam effort to detonate four nuclear weapons at one time on the U.S. mainland is a very strong possibility. Al-Qaeda gets bragging rights, and Saddam carries out what he wishes while maintaining deniability.

Implied without reasonable basis? Bullshit! That assessment was very reasonable, and fell within asymmetrical warfare. Rumsfeld’s (sp) assessment reflected reality.


I wonder if Elizabeth saw the 9/11 commission’s statement getting on the government’s failure to exercise an IMAGINATION capable of envisioning how things like 9/11 could be carried out.

G. On September 19, 2002, RUMSFELD told the Senate Armed Services Committee that "no terrorist state poses a greater or more immediate threat to the security of our people than the regime of Saddam Hussein," which statement was, as Rumsfeld well knew, made without reasonable basis and with reckless indifference to the truth in that: (1) Hussein had not acted aggressively toward the United States since his alleged attempt to assassinate President George H. W. Bush in 1993; (2) Iraq's military forces and equipment were severely debilitated because of UN sanctions imposed after the 1991 Gulf War; (3) the IC's opinion was that Iraq's sponsorship of terrorists was limited to ones whose hostility was directed toward Israel; and (4) Iran, not Iraq, was the most active state sponsor of terrorism.

WRONG.

Out of all the states that we were dealing with, none had all the following criteria:

1. Invaded neighboring countries TWO times in less than a 15 year time frame.

2. Used WMD in anger.

3. Had a cease fire agreement with us which they violated.

4. Had a leader that hosted radical terrorist conventions, and appeared at these conventions to make death to America threats.

5. Was in a hot state of war with us, where they traded fire with us. The statement that he didn’t act hostilely against us since the assassination attempts is wrong. He constantly fired at our aircraft while they patrolled the No Fly Zone.

Contrary to popular belief, the Iraq War was a continuation of a war that NEVER ENDED. And Saddam properly saw that Iraq and the United States were in a state of war against each other. 

Meanwhile . . .

Al-Qaeda is looking for someone that’ll give them WMD to use against the United States.

Under Asymmetrical warfare, you DON’T need a military, or a ballistic missile system, to deliver a blow to the United States, or to any other country in the world.

All you need is a willing member of a terrorist’s martyrdom brigade. The argument about Iraq’s military state is a non argument given that fact, thus the administration’s arguments still stand.

Also, on the statement that Iraq’s support for terrorism was limited to those that were hostile against Israel is wrong.

Again, he tried to send terrorists against our interests during the first Gulf War. Additionally, he hosted radical terrorist conventions, many of these terrorists had hostile intensions for the US. Bet they loved Saddam’s “Death to America” speaches.


H. On October 1, 2002, the defendants caused the IC's updated classified National Intelligence Estimate to be delivered to Congress just hours before the beginning of debate on the Authorization to Use Military Force. At the same time, the defendants caused an unclassified "White Paper" to be published which was false and misleading in many respects in that it failed to include qualifying language and dissents that substantially weakened their argument that Iraq posed a serious threat to the United States.

The first charge is misleading. The National Intelligence Estimate would’ve generated the report much later. However, their report was moved up in order to accommodate the debate taking place with regards to whether to authorize military action or not.

The second part doesn’t provide any proof that what that white paper talked about was “misleading”. Unlike the other charges on this farse of a charge, this one is generalized and lacks specificity.

However, if it came from the administration, it contained an assessment that reflected the asymmetrical reality that we faced.

NOTE: The author of this charge would label things that she disagrees with as “misleading”. 


I. On October 7, 2002, in Cincinnati, Ohio, BUSH made numerous deliberately misleading statements to the nation, including stating that in comparison to Iran and North Korea, Iraq posed a uniquely serious threat, which statement BUSH well knew was false and fraudulent in that it omitted to state the material fact that a State Department representative had been informed just three days previously that North Korea had actually already produced nuclear weapons. The defendants continued to conceal this information until after Congress passed the Authorization to Use Military Force against Iraq.

And Iraq DID pose a unique and serious threat compared to Iran and North Korea.

Iran has enough of a critical mass to where they could end up changing from within, and becoming a democratic state. North Korea is bordered, on all sides, by countries that don’t want it to have nuclear weapons.

And, unlike Iraq, neither North Korea nor Iran had ALL of the following under their belt . . .

Neither invaded two countries in a 15 year time frame within the past 27 years.

North Korea has a cease fire agreement with us, and they’re not going out of their way to violate that cease fire agreement on a continuous basis.

That statement that an official was notified that North Korea already had a bomb was false. It wouldn’t make sense to wait a long time to test a nuclear bomb if the international community was intent on getting you to stop.

North Korea would’ve detonated their first nuclear bomb to test it as soon as they created it. No such test conducted in 2002.

The administration is going to get many reports of many things. It’s up to him and his administration to come up with an assessment based on all the reports that they get.

If one guys says that North Korea already has a bomb, and a few others disagree with that assessment, its up to the President to decide which side has more weight, and act on that.

Unlike Iran and North Korea, Iraq is in the right spot for us to open up another Democratic front. Now, we have a checkerboard pattern of democracies in the Middle East that surround one or two problem child countries.


J. Between September 1, 2002, and November 2, 2002, BUSH traveled the country making in excess of thirty congressional-campaign speeches in which he falsely and fraudulently asserted that Iraq was a "serious threat" which required immediate action, when as he well knew, this assertion was made without reasonable basis and with reckless indifference to the truth.

This is just the author’s opinion.

With the way the charge is written, she’s acting like she knows for a fact what Bush’s cognitive processes where. She erroneously assumed that the President sees things through the end of a soda straw just like the way she sees things.

She’s taking conclusions made long after the fact and applying it to 2002, hoping the reader wouldn’t be smart enough to figure out that we didn’t have hindsite back then.

The statement that Iraq under Saddam possessed a serious threat to us IS NOT a “false” and “misleading” “assertion”, but an assessment that understands the asymmetric warfare realities that we face.

Saddam with WMD, Al-Qaeda with a need to use WMD. The enemy of my enemy is a friend, both hate the US and want to see it hurt bad.

Do the math.

Fruad? NO. Asymmetric reality? YES.


K. In his January 28, 2003 State of the Union address, BUSH announced that the "British have recently learned that Iraq was seeking significant quantities of uranium from Africa" which statement was fraudulent and misleading and made with reckless disregard for the truth, in that it falsely implied that the information was true, when the CIA had advised the administration more than once that the allegation was unsupported by available intelligence.

From the American Enterprise website, Urban Legends about the Iraq War:

Reality: On July 14, 2004—after a nearly half-year investigation—a special panel reported to the British Parliament that British intelligence had indeed concluded that Saddam Hussein was seeking to buy uranium from Africa. The Review of Intelligence on Weapons of Mass Destruction, chaired by Lord Butler, summarized: “It is accepted by all parties that Iraqi officials visited Niger in 1999. The British government had intelligence from several different sources indicating that this visit was for the purpose of acquiring uranium…. The statement in President Bush’s State of the Union Address of 28 January 2003 that ‘The British Government has learned that Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa’ was well-founded.”

The only person that’s being reckless and showing willful disregard for the truth is the author of these charges.

L. In a February 5, 2003, speech to the UN, POWELL falsely implied, without reasonable basis and with reckless disregard for the truth, that, among other things: (1) those who maintained that Iraq was purchasing aluminum tubes for rockets were allied with Saddam Hussein, even though POWELL well knew that both Department of Energy nuclear weapons experts and State Department intelligence analysts had concluded that the tubes were not suited for nuclear centrifuge use; and (2) Iraq had an ongoing cooperative relationship with al Qaeda, when he well knew that no intelligence agency had reached that conclusion.

The first point with regards to Powell made was spot on. Many of the people that argued that Iraq was purchasing aluminum tubes for rockets WERE allied to Saddam Hussein. That’s called using deceit and misinformation to deflect enemy charges of what you’re doing, and to try to discredit the enemy. And deceive them as to your true intentions.

As for the statement about the tubes:

The third point she makes misses the point behind improvising. Anybody that’s been around the world would see numerous examples of things, that are not well suited for certain purposes, being used for those purposes anyway.

Other parts of the world don’t have the West’s technical standards when it comes to things like this. For example, people thought that the Soviets were more advanced than we were in space technology--until the Apollo Suez linkup.

The Soviet’s initial successes against us partly resulted from them using less advanced technology than what we were using doing the same thing.

That’s an example of third world attitude today, where they’ll attempt to use technology and engineering that isn’t as advanced as our own to do the same job we’re doing with more advanced technology.

Under asymmetrical warfare, (HINT: Think outside the box), only a fool would dismiss these tubes’s possible usability.

As for the cooperative relationship between Iraq and Al-Qaeda. Again, Saddam built Salman Pak. Believe it or not, it was built around the time Al-Qaeda bottom lined the Bojinka Project (what eventually evolved into the 9/11 plots.) This was during the mid 90s.

According to Salman Pak’s commander at the time that fascility was captured, Al-Qaeda went through that camp to receive terror training.

NOTE: They had an Airliner model on the grounds where they trained terrorists to take over the craft with nail cutters, box cutters, and other unusual items we wouldn’t think of as “weapons”. (Asymmetrical warfare at work).

They didn’t have that in Afghanistan. Something to think about.


M. On March 18, 2003, BUSH sent a letter to the Speaker of the House of Representatives and the President Pro Tempore of the Senate which asserted that further reliance on diplomatic and peaceful means alone would not either: (1) adequately protect United States national security against the "continuing threat posed by Iraq" or (2) likely lead to enforcement of all relevant UN Security Council resolutions regarding Iraq, which statement was made without reasonable basis and with reckless indifference to the truth in that, as BUSH well knew, the U.S. intelligence community had never reported that Iraq posed an urgent threat to the United States and there was no evidence whatsoever to prove that Iraq had either the means or intent to attack the U.S. directly or indirectly. The statement was also false because, as BUSH well knew, the UN weapons inspectors had not found any weapons of mass destruction in Iraq and wanted to continue the inspection process because it was working well.

President Bush’s statements were based on historical precedent, check this inspection timeline out:

http://usinfo.state.gov/products/pubs/iraq/timeline.htm

Saddam played cat and mouse with the international community throughout the first inspections. And did precisely the same things during the second inspection rounds. There’s no way that these inspections were going well.

This is kind of like the saying, insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. Or something like that.

The inspectors were only saying that to avert going to war.

It didn’t matter what we did, if we continued much the same things, Saddam would’ve still played cat and mouse with the international community. His plan was that after the inspectors gave him a clean bill of health, he’d have the WMD that he sent to Syria shipped back to Iraq.

Then continue on with his WMD programs:


http://www.theamericanenterprise.org/issues/articleID.18837/article_detail.asp

quote:

Urban Legend: Saddam Hussein posed no threat. In the words of former Senator Max Cleland, “Iraq was no threat. We now know that. There are no weapons of mass destruction, no nuclear weapons programs, no ties to al-Qaeda. We now know that.”

Reality: Upon his return from Iraq, weapons inspector David Kay, head of the Iraq Survey Group, said in Senate testimony: “I think the world is far safer with the disappearance and the removal of Saddam Hussein…. I actually think this may be one of those cases where it was even more dangerous than we thought…. After 1998, it became a regime that was totally corrupt….
And in a world where we know others are seeking WMD, the likelihood at some point in the future of a seller and a buyer meeting up would have made that a far more dangerous country.”

Dr. Kay’s report noted that, “We have discovered dozens of WMD-related program activities and significant amounts of equipment that Iraq concealed from the United Nations during the inspections that began in late 2002.” He concluded, “Saddam, at least as judged by those scientists and other insiders who worked in his military-industrial programs, had not given up his aspirations and intentions to continue to acquire weapons of mass destruction…. Saddam intended to resume these programs whenever the external restrictions were removed. Several of these officials acknowledge receiving inquiries since 2000 from Saddam or his sons about how long it would take to restart CW [chemical weapons] production.”


All he needed to do was to fool the weapons inspectors that he had nothing, then have the UN lift the restrictions. Something that Russia and China were pushing for.

Judging by this person’s statements, that the inspections were “doing well”, it looked like Saddam could’ve succeeded doing just that.

Not finding WMD is not the same as “no evidence”. Again, before I made my first post on this message board, you had no evidence that I existed.

And she misses the point on intelligence reports. They’re going to report what they have on a country, and leave the reader with the option to look at what they presented and draw their own conclusions.

Unlike an estimate, where they give their assessment of something.

This author puts words in what these documents say, and implies that the President saw the same things she believes in. Never mind that she doesn’t have the clearance to view the same kind of information the President views.


N. In the same March 18, 2003 letter, BUSH also represented that taking action pursuant to the Resolution was "consistent with continuing to take the necessary actions against international terrorists and terrorist organizations, including those nations, organizations or persons who planned, authorized, committed, or aided the terrorists attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001," which statement was entirely false and without reasonable basis in that, as BUSH well knew, Iraq had no involvement with al Qaeda or the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001.

The resolution that the above talks about:

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2003/03/20030319-1.html

“Consistent with section 3(b) of the Authorization for Use of Military Force Against Iraq Resolution of 2002 (Public Law 107-243), and based on information available to me, including that in the enclosed document, I determine that:”

What information was available to him? Good chance that it talked about something like this:

http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/home/cold/salman_pak.guest.html

http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/home/cold/salman_pak.Par.0001.ImageFile.jpg

http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/world/iraq/salman_pak.htm

“Former Iraqi military officers have described a highly secret terrorist training facility at Salman Pak, where both Iraqis and non-Iraqi Arabs receive training on hijacking planes and trains, planting explosives in cities, sabotage, and assassinations.”

http://www.nationalreview.com/murdock/murdock040703.asp

“Confirming that Operation Iraqi Freedom is an integral part of the war on terror, soldiers of the 7th Marine Regiment destroyed a suspected terrorist camp early Sunday en route to Baghdad. Located a mile east of the Tigris River, the Salman Pak base was exactly where U.S. terrorism experts and Iraqi defectors said it would be”

Again, this is where terrorists learned how to hijack aircraft with BOX CUTTERS among other things.

NOTE: After the 9/11 attacks, Saddam evacuated many of his installations.

Also, throughout the “charges”, the author constantly accused certain people of saying things they “knew” wasn’t “true”. The author arrogantly assumes that her position was a “no brainer”, and that these people were deliberately disregarding the “facts” just so that they could invade Iraq.

Yet, the only person that I saw who showed reckless disregard for the truth, and the facts, is Elizabeth de la Vega, an anti Bush person with an ax to grind.

Another thing that she does is take the results of an investigation after the fact, and SECOND GUESSES decisions made before the fact, as if the views of these investigations were obvious back then.

I’m getting a sense that you DELIBERATELY failed to link your source for fear that we wouldn’t trust it:


http://www.commondreams.org/views06/1129-32.htm

HMM, who wrote that? Elizabeth de la Vega maybe?

Elizabeth needs to read the book, “Unrestricted Warfare,” and consult subject matter experts, on both sides of the argument, on this subject. Otherwise, she should just stick with her profession and stay out of discussions dealing with National Security and the geostratigic environment.

Otherwise, she’s like a kid intrusted with something that only adults should manage. She did a good job at hurting her credibility with the above farce she calls “the charges”. And does further damage by adding to the arsenal of those who have problems getting off their hind ends to learn what’s actually going on.

I’d LOVE to see her get subjected to cross examination.



(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 436
RE: An example of why our military loves the press .... - 11/2/2007 11:10:08 PM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline
quote:

Saddam played cat and mouse with the international community throughout the first inspections. And did precisely the same things during the second inspection rounds. There’s no way that these inspections were going well.


since you obviously have no concept of history, there was once this country called persia  , before that babylon, anyway-------------the hiustory out there in the fertile crescent , is as old arguable as is the cradle of civilization...............
nah, you go ahead---I am sure you have the facts, the right and the crop dusters to hang for about the next 18 months


_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to herfacechair)
Profile   Post #: 437
RE: An example of why our military loves the press .... - 11/2/2007 11:24:59 PM   
herfacechair


Posts: 1046
Joined: 8/29/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

OK,  syllable sensei, here is the thing, simple as you are, most of us give up see spot run  a couple weeks after we win the gold star for reading to the class in kindergarden because we were so cute, for Miss Lilly; you know--

then they bother us kinda folk with content....not blue type, which is a rather good gizmo, but the carnival has a tarnish pretty quick on that sort of gimmick



If I’m “simple” you shouldn’t have a hard time answering my questions, or understanding my posts.

I know it’s easier to recount something you did in kindergarden, when things were nicer and they handed you milk and cookies.

Stress does that, make you want to go back to relaxing times. But, time for you to man up and answer simple questions to “put” your “money” where your “mouth” is.

(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 438
RE: An example of why our military loves the press .... - 11/2/2007 11:27:54 PM   
Sinergy


Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: herfacechair

Because they HAVE enhanced our safety.



[sarcasm]

In the same sense that the Department of Homeland Security being put in charge of FEMA has protected the citizens of New Orleans and the gulf coast from a hurricane predicted by scientists for years prior to it actually sinking the city while the Doofus In Chief was responsible for protecting US citizens.

Additionally, it explains how the Department of Homeland Security has been instrumental in rebuilding the city and giving those US citizens who once lived there their homes back, as opposed to simply warehousing them hundreds of miles from their jobs.

[/sarcasm]

I would love to hear empirical evidence to suggest we are safer now than we were under Clinton or Carter or Nixon or Jackson or Jefferson or King George III, but I am not interested in hearing a bunch of unqualified dittohead talking points.

When Bill O'Reilly told Stephen Colbert that his entire show was "an act,"  Stephen Colbert responding "Sir, if your show is an act, what does that make my show?"

Sinergy


_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


(in reply to herfacechair)
Profile   Post #: 439
RE: An example of why our military loves the press .... - 11/2/2007 11:28:55 PM   
herfacechair


Posts: 1046
Joined: 8/29/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

quote:

ORIGINAL: herfacechair

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

quote:

mnotttertail: fact is; that there were no WMD,

Negative, that’s not fact.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,120137,00.html


negative, that is not only not fact that is anecdotal, you can go over in the corner by your dish and lay down now. 

This is probably where alot of you guys go wrong, it is only fact if you think it, but a generally accepted as not true and even if you understand  pictures and simple english, should  be, if you can find it, avoided, since someone may actually read it.

But cute, give it to luckydog, it is more fact than he has.  so maybe there are 4 or 5 of you here.

Ron



Are Sarin and Mustard chemical agents? YES [   ] NO [   ]

I’ll give you a hint. When I went through NBC/CBR training, we learned that they were examples of chemical agents. The training manual said the same thing.

Chemical agent, one of those things we had to don the gas mask so that we wouldn’t inhale them.

You could spin this all you want, but that doesn’t change that fact. I’ll be waiting for you to select an answer.
 


you inhaled yours stateside, you are now displaying an audacity, a goddamn gall to sy that they cannot have any sort of improvements in war over a scimitar because  when you waltz in there with gas and iron and bombs, yours are not wmd and since they have been the obvious radicals all invading countries and shit, you are the world mediator, and only you and yours can hold siegeworks.....

Get fuckin lost dangerous men.  I also am getting the feeling that you aint got no more ambition than to be a cop in real life.............

still no fact presented, I am waiting to check the box until you present a fact, which---------you have not, so no x for you





Sorry, I don’t’ do drugs. And I don’t drink to excess. Not good for you.

And now, another question for you:


WHERE, in MY POSTS, do I say that they can’t have an improvement in war, as well as the rest of what you said I said?

Would it kill you to read what I said with the intentions of understanding what I’m saying?

Simply put, Saddam’s Iraq was part of an asymmetrical threat. Go back and read the posts I made where I talked about the danger of someone with WMD getting with someone that wants the WMD to use against us, with both those people hating us.

I do recommend that you allow yourself to get sober before you continue participating on this thread. Each one of your posts is getting more and more incoherent.

And you still haven’t answered my question, above, bolded in red. It’s simple, put an X in your response.

The chances that my ambitions are to be a “cop” are as great as your ambitions of being a drunken bum. Judging by your recent posts.


“Get fuckin lost dangerous men”

Don’t tell me that you CAN’T see the cause and effect that’s causing me to continue to come back to hammer you. ***roles eyes***

Your claiming that I “didn’t” present any facts isn’t refutation. And it doesn’t make things so.

I’ve provided you with facts, and I did so with that question. If you don’t believe that I presented you with the facts, then the answer above should be obvious.

Quit beating around the bush and answer the above question.

(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 440
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