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RE: An example of why our military loves the press .... - 11/1/2007 3:01:21 PM   
herfacechair


Posts: 1046
Joined: 8/29/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

Which of these is a lie, and what facts contradict them?


Your argument, that we pulled out because of Bin Laden’s request, isn’t represented in the facts that you bring up, quoted below. The argument that we pulled out because of Bin Laden’s request doesn’t reflect reality.

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

August 1995: Bin Laden Criticizes Saudi Royals, Threatens Attacks on US Forces in Saudi Arabia

August 1996: Bin Laden Calls for Attack on Western Targets in Arabia
May 26, 1998: Bin Laden Promises to Bring Jihad to US

April 30-August 26, 2003: US Withdraws Most of Its Troops from Saudi Arabia, Fulfilling Key Bin Laden Demand

The withdrawal of US troops from Saudi Arabia has been bin Laden’s most persistent demand since the troops entered the country in 1990.

For instance, in his 1996 fatwa (see August 1996), he said, “The latest and greatest of these aggressions incurred by Muslims since the death of the Prophet… is the occupation of the land of the two Holy Places… by the armies of the American Crusaders and their allies.” [Daily Telegraph, 4/30/2003]


This is precisely what I’m talking about when I mention that you’re using inductive fallacy. In order for your premise to be true, we’d have to pull out immediately after the 9/11 attacks, like in the fall or winter of 2001/early 2002.

NOT in the spring and summer of 2003, up to two years after Bin Laden’s last act against us.

Our pulling out immediately after 9/11 would establish a cause and effect to prove your premise true. But that’s not how it happened.

The last attack against us, prior to our pulling out, was almost two years later. That’s a large lag that proves your premise, that we pulled out because of Bin Laden’s request, WRONG.

Again:

Say you don’t feel like eating. Your wife makes hourly demands that you eat something. But you refuse.


Finally, you get hungry. You get up and head to the kitchen so that you could eat. Right when you pass the room your wife is in, on your way to the kitchen, she tells you to grab something to eat.

In this case, did you eat because your wife told you to, or did you eat because you were hungry?

HINT: You refused to eat when you weren’t hungry, despite her constant demands.

Now, copy and paste the below options, and place an “X” in your response.


Q: Why did you eat in this scenario?

1. You ate because you were hungry [    ]
2. You ate because your wife told you to [    ]


Simply copy and paste those options, and place an X in the answer. You’re restricted to the above scenario in answer that question.

Your failure to answer the question, per the above directions, will speak volumes abut the faith and confidence you place in your premise that we pulled out “because” of bin Laden.


quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

One senior US military official says the decision to leave was made partly to help relieve internal political pressure on the royal family: “The Saudis will be happy when we leave. But they’re concerned that it not look as if it’s precipitous, because it will look like bin Laden won.” [Washington Post, 4/30/2003]


On the first part, partly. The MAJOR reason behind our pulling out was that Operation Southern Watch was no longer applicable.

On the second part, Bin Laden ISN’T in Saudi Arabia. That pressure came from within Saudi Arabia.

On the third part, LOOKS LIKE, they’re not saying that HE DID “win”. This supports what I’ve argued, with regards to inductive fallacy. The way it’s worded, they’re concerned about a misconception about why we did that. And that misconception would be one that Bin Laden “won” this. Which isn’t true, and isn’t supported in that quote.


quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

One unnamed senior Saudi prince who participated in high-level debates about the withdrawal says, “We are fighting for our lives, and we are going to do what is necessary to save our behinds.” New York Times, 4/30/2003]


This isn’t something that has to do with what Bin Laden wanted, he was talking about internal pressure in Saudi Arabia. Again, Bin Laden isn’t in Saudi Arabia. He’s somewhere else.

(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 401
RE: An example of why our military loves the press .... - 11/1/2007 3:03:40 PM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: pinkme2

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle


quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

Since DADT is specifically for the military, there isn't going to be any investigation, any more than there was going to be one against Janet Reno


Yeah, that's my point. It's wrong that State gets a pass ( and DOJ ), while people taking the risk of dying have to be shit on by their branch of service.

Being SHIT ON is worst than being SPIT ON, innit?


I gave you all the reasons that the military was treated differently.


I don't buy your excuses for bigotry.

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to pinkme2)
Profile   Post #: 402
RE: An example of why our military loves the press .... - 11/1/2007 3:04:45 PM   
herfacechair


Posts: 1046
Joined: 8/29/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle


quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

Officals generally have qualified immunity,,, the violation of the law has to be outside the scope of their legitimate duties.

There is no law against an official making decisions that you don't agree with, no matter how much you pretend otherwise, FB


I would say that:

"the presentation of information to Congress and the general public through
deceit,
craft,
trickery,
dishonest means,
and fraudulent representations,
including
lies,
half-truths,
material omissions,
and statements made with reckless indifference to their truth or falsity,
while knowing and intending that such fraudulent representations would influence Congress' decisions"

falls outside of the "scope of their legitimate duties", wouldn't you?



All you have is an opinion that those are precisely what happened. Now, let’s look at what others have said:

http://www.frankenlies.com/truth/bush-did-not-lie.htm

MADELEINE ALBRIGHT, SECRETARY OF STATE, CLINTON ADMINISTRATION: "Iraq is a long way from Ohio, but what happens there matters a great deal here. For the risk that the leaders of a rogue state will use nuclear, chemical or biological weapons against us or our allies is the greatest security threat we face. And it is a threat against which we must and will stand firm. In discussing Iraq, we begin by knowing that Saddam Hussein, unlike any other leader, has used weapons of mass destruction even against his own people." (CNN’s "Showdown With Iraq: International Town Meeting," 2/18/98)

SANDY BERGER, NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER, CLINTON ADMINISTRATION: "Some have suggested that we should basically turn away. We should close our eyes to this effort to create a safe haven for weapons of mass destruction. But imagine the consequences if Saddam fails to comply and we fail to act. Saddam will be emboldened believing the international community has lost its will. He will rebuild his arsenal of weapons of mass destruction, and someday, some way, I am certain, he will use that arsenal again as he has 10 times since 1983." (CNN’s "Showdown With Iraq: International Town Meeting," 2/18/98)

SEN. JOHN KERRY (D-MA): "Saddam Hussein has already used these weapons and has made it clear that he has the intent to continue to try, by virtue of his duplicity and secrecy, to continue to do so. … It is a threat with respect to the potential of terrorist activities on a global basis." (Press Conference, 2/23/98)

These are democrats who, in the official capacity, made similar assessments about Iraq that President Bush made. As for regime change:

http://www.cnn.com/ALLPOLITICS/stories/1998/12/16/transcripts/clinton.html

quote:

President Clinton Statement, December 16, 1998

The hard fact is that so long as Saddam remains in power, he threatens the well-being of his people, the peace of his region, the security of the world.

The best way to end that threat once and for all is with a new Iraqi government -- a government ready to live in peace with its neighbors, a government that respects the rights of its people. Bringing change in Baghdad will take time and effort.
We will strengthen our engagement with the full range of Iraqi opposition forces and work with them effectively and prudently.


None of your charges apply, as these conclusions were around long before Bush became president.

And these conclusions, made by both parties, were made within the scope of their duties, based on information they had at the time.

(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 403
RE: An example of why our military loves the press .... - 11/1/2007 3:05:27 PM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline
quote:


NOT in the spring and summer of 2003, up to two years after Bin Laden’s last act against us.


Yeah, with the SAUDI Financiers and Planners still at large.



_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to herfacechair)
Profile   Post #: 404
RE: An example of why our military loves the press .... - 11/1/2007 3:07:00 PM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: herfacechair

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle


quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

Officals generally have qualified immunity,,, the violation of the law has to be outside the scope of their legitimate duties.

There is no law against an official making decisions that you don't agree with, no matter how much you pretend otherwise, FB


I would say that:

"the presentation of information to Congress and the general public through
deceit,
craft,
trickery,
dishonest means,
and fraudulent representations,
including
lies,
half-truths,
material omissions,
and statements made with reckless indifference to their truth or falsity,
while knowing and intending that such fraudulent representations would influence Congress' decisions"

falls outside of the "scope of their legitimate duties", wouldn't you?



All you have is an opinion that those are precisely what happened. Now, let’s look at what others have said:


What you need to do, to support your claim, is defend, for Bush, against THESE charges.

quote:


Overt Acts

A. On December 9, 2001, CHENEY announced on NBC's Meet the Press that "it was pretty well confirmed" that lead 9/11 hijacker Mohamed Atta had met the head of Iraqi intelligence in Prague in April 2001, which statement was, as CHENEY well knew, made without reasonable basis and with reckless disregard for the truth, because it was based on a single witness's uncorroborated allegation that had not been fully investigated by U.S. intelligence agencies.

B. On July 15, 2002, POWELL stated on Ted Koppel's Nightline: "What we have consistently said is that the President has no plan on his desk to invade Iraq at the moment, nor has one been presented to him, nor have his advisors come together to put a plan to him," which statement was deliberately false and misleading in that it deceitfully implied the President was not planning an invasion of Iraq when, as POWELL well knew, the President was close to finalizing detailed military plans for such an invasion that he had ordered months previously.

C. On August 26, 2002, CHENEY made numerous false and fraudulent statements including: "Simply stated there is no doubt that Saddam Hussein now has weapons of mass destruction. There is no doubt that he is amassing them to use against our friends, against our allies, and against us," when, as CHENEY well knew, this statement was made without reasonable basis and with reckless indifference to the truth in that the IC's then prevailing assessment was that Iraq had neither nuclear weapons nor a reconstituted nuclear weapons program.

D. On September 7, 2002, appearing publicly with Blair, BUSH claimed a recent IAEA report stated that Iraq was "six months away from developing a [nuclear] weapon" and "I don't know what more evidence we need," which statements were made without basis and with reckless indifference to the truth in that: (1) the IAEA had not even been present in Iraq since 1998; and (2) the report the IAEA did write in 1998 had concluded there was no indication that Iraq had the physical capacity to produce weapons-usable nuclear material or that it had attempted to obtain such material.

E. On September 8, 2002, on Late Edition with Wolf Blitzer, RICE asserted that Saddam Hussein was acquiring aluminum tubes that were "only suited" for nuclear centrifuge use, which statement was deliberately false and fraudulent, and made with reckless indifference to the truth in that it omitted to state the following material facts: (1) the U.S. intelligence community was deeply divided about the likely use of the tubes; (2) there were at least fifteen intelligence reports written since April 2001 that cast doubt on the tubes' possible nuclear-related use; and (3) the U.S. Department of Energy nuclear weapons experts had concluded, after analyzing the tubes's specifications and the circumstances of the Iraqis' attempts to procure them, that the aluminum tubes were not well suited for nuclear centrifuge use and were more likely intended for artillery rocket production.

F. On September 8, 2002, RUMSFELD stated on Face the Nation: "Imagine a September 11th, with weapons of mass destruction. It's not three thousand, it's tens of thousands of innocent men, women and children," which statement was deliberately fraudulent and misleading in that it implied without reasonable basis and in direct contradiction to then prevailing intelligence that Saddam Hussein had no operational relationship with al Qaeda and was unlikely to provide weapons to terrorists.

G. On September 19, 2002, RUMSFELD told the Senate Armed Services Committee that "no terrorist state poses a greater or more immediate threat to the security of our people than the regime of Saddam Hussein," which statement was, as Rumsfeld well knew, made without reasonable basis and with reckless indifference to the truth in that: (1) Hussein had not acted aggressively toward the United States since his alleged attempt to assassinate President George H. W. Bush in 1993; (2) Iraq's military forces and equipment were severely debilitated because of UN sanctions imposed after the 1991 Gulf War; (3) the IC's opinion was that Iraq's sponsorship of terrorists was limited to ones whose hostility was directed toward Israel; and (4) Iran, not Iraq, was the most active state sponsor of terrorism.

H. On October 1, 2002, the defendants caused the IC's updated classified National Intelligence Estimate to be delivered to Congress just hours before the beginning of debate on the Authorization to Use Military Force. At the same time, the defendants caused an unclassified "White Paper" to be published which was false and misleading in many respects in that it failed to include qualifying language and dissents that substantially weakened their argument that Iraq posed a serious threat to the United States.

I. On October 7, 2002, in Cincinnati, Ohio, BUSH made numerous deliberately misleading statements to the nation, including stating that in comparison to Iran and North Korea, Iraq posed a uniquely serious threat, which statement BUSH well knew was false and fraudulent in that it omitted to state the material fact that a State Department representative had been informed just three days previously that North Korea had actually already produced nuclear weapons. The defendants continued to conceal this information until after Congress passed the Authorization to Use Military Force against Iraq.

J. Between September 1, 2002, and November 2, 2002, BUSH traveled the country making in excess of thirty congressional-campaign speeches in which he falsely and fraudulently asserted that Iraq was a "serious threat" which required immediate action, when as he well knew, this assertion was made without reasonable basis and with reckless indifference to the truth.

K. In his January 28, 2003 State of the Union address, BUSH announced that the "British have recently learned that Iraq was seeking significant quantities of uranium from Africa" which statement was fraudulent and misleading and made with reckless disregard for the truth, in that it falsely implied that the information was true, when the CIA had advised the administration more than once that the allegation was unsupported by available intelligence.

L. In a February 5, 2003, speech to the UN, POWELL falsely implied, without reasonable basis and with reckless disregard for the truth, that, among other things: (1) those who maintained that Iraq was purchasing aluminum tubes for rockets were allied with Saddam Hussein, even though POWELL well knew that both Department of Energy nuclear weapons experts and State Department intelligence analysts had concluded that the tubes were not suited for nuclear centrifuge use; and (2) Iraq had an ongoing cooperative relationship with al Qaeda, when he well knew that no intelligence agency had reached that conclusion.

M. On March 18, 2003, BUSH sent a letter to the Speaker of the House of Representatives and the President Pro Tempore of the Senate which asserted that further reliance on diplomatic and peaceful means alone would not either: (1) adequately protect United States national security against the "continuing threat posed by Iraq" or (2) likely lead to enforcement of all relevant UN Security Council resolutions regarding Iraq, which statement was made without reasonable basis and with reckless indifference to the truth in that, as BUSH well knew, the U.S. intelligence community had never reported that Iraq posed an urgent threat to the United States and there was no evidence whatsoever to prove that Iraq had either the means or intent to attack the U.S. directly or indirectly. The statement was also false because, as BUSH well knew, the UN weapons inspectors had not found any weapons of mass destruction in Iraq and wanted to continue the inspection process because it was working well.

N. In the same March 18, 2003 letter, BUSH also represented that taking action pursuant to the Resolution was "consistent with continuing to take the necessary actions against international terrorists and terrorist organizations, including those nations, organizations or persons who planned, authorized, committed, or aided the terrorists attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001," which statement was entirely false and without reasonable basis in that, as BUSH well knew, Iraq had no involvement with al Qaeda or the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001.

All in violation of Title 18, United States Code, Section 371.




< Message edited by farglebargle -- 11/1/2007 3:08:24 PM >


_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to herfacechair)
Profile   Post #: 405
RE: An example of why our military loves the press .... - 11/1/2007 3:13:40 PM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: herfacechair

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

Which of these is a lie, and what facts contradict them?


Your argument, that we pulled out because of Bin Laden’s request, isn’t represented in the facts that you bring up, quoted below. The argument that we pulled out because of Bin Laden’s request doesn’t reflect reality.




If a simple timeline is too challenging, there's nothing else I can contribute to the discussion.

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to herfacechair)
Profile   Post #: 406
RE: An example of why our military loves the press .... - 11/1/2007 7:25:28 PM   
pinkme2


Posts: 236
Joined: 8/17/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle


quote:

ORIGINAL: pinkme2

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle


quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

Since DADT is specifically for the military, there isn't going to be any investigation, any more than there was going to be one against Janet Reno


Yeah, that's my point. It's wrong that State gets a pass ( and DOJ ), while people taking the risk of dying have to be shit on by their branch of service.

Being SHIT ON is worst than being SPIT ON, innit?


I gave you all the reasons that the military was treated differently.


I don't buy your excuses for bigotry.


LOL  That's hilarious!

(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 407
RE: An example of why our military loves the press .... - 11/2/2007 1:17:32 PM   
herfacechair


Posts: 1046
Joined: 8/29/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1

Consider that according to some Farg's logic...

OBL demanded the US out of Arabia, we did so, hence we appeased him.

OBL demands that we leave Iraq,  so does Farg.....

So is Farg an appeaser of OBL or is his logic flawed?


Farglebargle said it best:

“I know there are people living in Fantasy Land where OBEYING TERRORIST DEMANDS is not, in some way, OBEYING TERRORIST DEMANDS, but they're probably just crazy.” -farglebargle 

(in reply to luckydog1)
Profile   Post #: 408
RE: An example of why our military loves the press .... - 11/2/2007 1:21:01 PM   
herfacechair


Posts: 1046
Joined: 8/29/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle


quote:

ORIGINAL: pinkme2

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle


quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

Since DADT is specifically for the military, there isn't going to be any investigation, any more than there was going to be one against Janet Reno


Yeah, that's my point. It's wrong that State gets a pass ( and DOJ ), while people taking the risk of dying have to be shit on by their branch of service.

Being SHIT ON is worst than being SPIT ON, innit?


I gave you all the reasons that the military was treated differently.


I don't buy your excuses for bigotry.


Don’t mistake a reasoned argument as to how the military was treated differently as “bigotry”.

(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 409
RE: An example of why our military loves the press .... - 11/2/2007 1:29:03 PM   
herfacechair


Posts: 1046
Joined: 8/29/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

quote:

NOT in the spring and summer of 2003, up to two years after Bin Laden’s last act against us.


Yeah, with the SAUDI Financiers and Planners still at large.
REPEAT POINT


“Yeah”, in response to a statement proving your premise wrong, shows that you’re making progress. On your Red Herring statement, again:

quote:

Within each stable country’s boundaries, the POLICE, and other law enforcement agencies, are responsible for spearheading counter terrorism efforts. It’s the POLICE that go in and bust up terrorist cells.

Saudi Arabia is a stable country. And they are going after and busting terror cells.


And:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2984547.stm

quote:

Tuesday, 29 April, 2003

The BBC's Middle East analyst Roger Hardy says this is a strategic shift of great political as well as military significance.

Technically US troops there have been part of Operation Southern Watch, which has enforced the no-fly zone over southern Iraq set up after 1991.


As well as this:

quote:

Your position that we should’ve left the troops in Saudi Arabia to pursue terrorists (not in the scope of their mission) shows that you don’t understand how things work with regard to the global war on terror, and with regard to how our different assets, military and civilian, are used.


The troops we had in Saudi Arabia were there for enforcing the Northern Fly Zone. Arguing that these troops should’ve been turned around to fight terrorism in Saudi Arabia shows lack of understanding of two things:

1. A lack of understanding of how the military works, and what each job specialty is capable and not capable of doing.

And

2. A lack of understanding of the use of the police and other law enforcement to take terrorism in country’s around the world actively going after the terrorists.

(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 410
RE: An example of why our military loves the press .... - 11/2/2007 1:38:46 PM   
herfacechair


Posts: 1046
Joined: 8/29/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle


quote:

ORIGINAL: herfacechair

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

I would say that:

"the presentation of information to Congress and the general public through
deceit,
craft,
trickery,
dishonest means,
and fraudulent representations,
including
lies,
half-truths,
material omissions,
and statements made with reckless indifference to their truth or falsity,
while knowing and intending that such fraudulent representations would influence Congress' decisions"

falls outside of the "scope of their legitimate duties", wouldn't you?


All you have is an opinion that those are precisely what happened. Now, let’s look at what others have said:

http://www.frankenlies.com/truth/bush-did-not-lie.htm

MADELEINE ALBRIGHT, SECRETARY OF STATE, CLINTON ADMINISTRATION: "Iraq is a long way from Ohio, but what happens there matters a great deal here. For the risk that the leaders of a rogue state will use nuclear, chemical or biological weapons against us or our allies is the greatest security threat we face. And it is a threat against which we must and will stand firm. In discussing Iraq, we begin by knowing that Saddam Hussein, unlike any other leader, has used weapons of mass destruction even against his own people." (CNN’s "Showdown With Iraq: International Town Meeting," 2/18/98)

SANDY BERGER, NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER, CLINTON ADMINISTRATION: "Some have suggested that we should basically turn away. We should close our eyes to this effort to create a safe haven for weapons of mass destruction. But imagine the consequences if Saddam fails to comply and we fail to act. Saddam will be emboldened believing the international community has lost its will. He will rebuild his arsenal of weapons of mass destruction, and someday, some way, I am certain, he will use that arsenal again as he has 10 times since 1983." (CNN’s "Showdown With Iraq: International Town Meeting," 2/18/98)

SEN. JOHN KERRY (D-MA): "Saddam Hussein has already used these weapons and has made it clear that he has the intent to continue to try, by virtue of his duplicity and secrecy, to continue to do so. … It is a threat with respect to the potential of terrorist activities on a global basis." (Press Conference, 2/23/98)


These are democrats who, in the official capacity, made similar assessments about Iraq that President Bush made. As for regime change:

http://www.cnn.com/ALLPOLITICS/stories/1998/12/16/transcripts/clinton.html

quote:

President Clinton Statement, December 16, 1998

The hard fact is that so long as Saddam remains in power, he threatens the well-being of his people, the peace of his region, the security of the world.

The best way to end that threat once and for all is with a new Iraqi government -- a government ready to live in peace with its neighbors, a government that respects the rights of its people. Bringing change in Baghdad will take time and effort.
We will strengthen our engagement with the full range of Iraqi opposition forces and work with them effectively and prudently.


None of your charges apply, as these conclusions were around long before Bush became president.

And these conclusions, made by both parties, were made within the scope of their duties, based on information they had at the time.


What you need to do, to support your claim, is defend, for Bush, against THESE charges.


WRONG. I supported my statement with the statements you CUT OUT of the quote. I put the rest of what I said back in. Had you included my entire statement, you wouldn’t have any need to ask me for proof.

I’ve supported my statements in the posts that I’ve made. What you’re doing is applying shoot and move tactics rather than simply accept that you don’t have an argument.

Now, watch me to do your “charges” what you should’ve done to them in the first place.

(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 411
RE: An example of why our military loves the press .... - 11/2/2007 1:46:31 PM   
herfacechair


Posts: 1046
Joined: 8/29/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

Overt Acts


Where’s your SOURCE farglebargle?

A. On December 9, 2001, CHENEY announced on NBC's Meet the Press that "it was pretty well confirmed" that lead 9/11 hijacker Mohamed Atta had met the head of Iraqi intelligence in Prague in April 2001, which statement was, as CHENEY well knew, made without reasonable basis and with reckless disregard for the truth, because it was based on a single witness's uncorroborated allegation that had not been fully investigated by U.S. intelligence agencies.

Don’t be fooled by the use of the word “uncorroborated” in this statement. If you’re the ONLY person to witness something, you know for a fact what you witnessed. But if nobody else witnessed what you witnessed, then your statements would be considered “uncorroborated”.

Corroborate indicates that your story matches with what someone else says. This person, who obviously has an ax to grind against the Administration, is making this sound like there’s another observation that OPPOSES this information.

But NOBODY observed the opposite.

The word “allegation” is an attempt, by an experienced attorney, (the author of these charges) uses to try to spin this like someone is making something up.

Not the case.

Czech intelligence officials are adamant that the meeting between Atta and Iraqi intelligence officials took place.

Unless our CIA finds another group of people that could vouch for that, it remains “uncorroborated”, but NOT untrue. See above exame.

The Author assumes what Cheney knew, and what he didn’t know. She arrogantly assumes that her position is a “no brainer”, and that Cheney was deliberately misleading the audience.

Unlike you, I don’t put any confidence in her ESP abilities, or her abilities to know what Cheney’s cognitive processes were.


B. On July 15, 2002, POWELL stated on Ted Koppel's Nightline: "What we have consistently said is that the President has no plan on his desk to invade Iraq at the moment, nor has one been presented to him, nor have his advisors come together to put a plan to him," which statement was deliberately false and misleading in that it deceitfully implied the President was not planning an invasion of Iraq when, as POWELL well knew, the President was close to finalizing detailed military plans for such an invasion that he had ordered months previously.

And Powell’s statement was the truth.

Had you gone to Bush’s desk on July 15, 2002, while Ted Koppel’s Nightline was playing, you wouldn’t have seen any invasion plan on the President’s desk. Heck, you probably wouldn’t have seen anything on his desk but things you’d normally find on a person’s desk when they’re not there.

Had you walked in during the time the President was doing business, you’d see other pressing matters on his desk.

His advisors don’t need to put a plan together for him. The Pentagon looks at hotspots around the world, and generate contingency plans, from evacuation/humanitarian operations to full scale invasion.

This included Iraq.

These plans have been in place for YEARS, long before President Bush became president. And these plans are updated as the geopolitical and geostrategic environment for the area changes.

And given the time that Power made that statement, the President wouldn’t be anywhere NEAR to finalizing something that’s constantly changing.

Again, she’s assuming that her views are a “no brainer” and that Powell saw the same things she saw, and that he was being “deceptive”. This makes her automatically wrong.


C. On August 26, 2002, CHENEY made numerous false and fraudulent statements including: "Simply stated there is no doubt that Saddam Hussein now has weapons of mass destruction. There is no doubt that he is amassing them to use against our friends, against our allies, and against us," when, as CHENEY well knew, this statement was made without reasonable basis and with reckless indifference to the truth in that the IC's then prevailing assessment was that Iraq had neither nuclear weapons nor a reconstituted nuclear weapons program.

Again, not true. After the invasion, both Sarin and Mustard gas were used against our troops. Anybody in the military that’s been through NBC/CBR training would recognize those as chemical agents, thus WMD.

Also, take note of statements made by democrats, such as Clinton:

SEN. JOHN KERRY (D-MA): "Saddam Hussein has already used these weapons and has made it clear that he has the intent to continue to try, by virtue of his duplicity and secrecy, to continue to do so. … It is a threat with respect to the potential of terrorist activities on a global basis." (Press Conference, 2/23/98)

I don’t see Kerry as one of the Defendants, Elizabeth’s bias is plain and obvious.

Also, Cheney wouldn’t be saying that unless the Intelligence Community was feeding him that information. And they weren’t the only intelligence community that accused Saddam of having WMD.

The author is slick here. Cheney said “Weapons of Mass Destruction”. Yet, the author talks about nuclear weapons.

She’s hoping that the reader wouldn’t be smart enough to figure out that three main weapons of mass destruction are nuclear, chemical, and biological. The intelligence community saying that he doesn’t have a nuclear weapon is NOT them saying that he “doesn’t” have WMD.

Again, both Sarin and Mustard gas, both chemical agents, were found post invasion. The only person that’s making an unreasonable statement with reckless disregard for the truth is the author of these charges.


D. On September 7, 2002, appearing publicly with Blair, BUSH claimed a recent IAEA report stated that Iraq was "six months away from developing a [nuclear] weapon" and "I don't know what more evidence we need," which statements were made without basis and with reckless indifference to the truth in that: (1) the IAEA had not even been present in Iraq since 1998; and (2) the report the IAEA did write in 1998 had concluded there was no indication that Iraq had the physical capacity to produce weapons-usable nuclear material or that it had attempted to obtain such material.

Doesn’t matter if IAEA was in Iraq or not. If Saddam didn’t want them to know his true capabilities, they weren’t going to know his true capabilities. This was the case when they were there in 1998, and this was the case when they weren’t there.

This woman seems to forget that Saddam played cat and mouse games with these guys. For example, denying that they had any elements of a nuclear program--right before some Iraqis are caught with elements of a nuclear program. (See Iraq inspection timeline by year).

There was one time when Saddam denied having a certain WMD capability, until some Iraqis slipped and were caught red handed. Then Saddam came out and re-adjusted his claims of what he had.

So, even if the IAEA was in Iraq, they weren’t in the know of what Saddam really had, and what he didn’t have.

The best that they could do is make an assessment based on what they’ve found, and project that.

Saying that there was no indication isn’t saying that something existed.


For example, prior to my making my first post on this message board, you had no indication that I existed.

Using that reasoning, it’s understandable why both Democratic and Republican administrations made the same conclusions with regards to WMD in Saddam’s hands.

President Bush making his judgement based on the IAEA report of 2002 doesn’t make him a liar, or a deceiver. And the IAEA’s conclusions were based on both Saddam’s playing cat and mouse, and what they could extrapolate and project from information that they DID dig up.


E. On September 8, 2002, on Late Edition with Wolf Blitzer, RICE asserted that Saddam Hussein was acquiring aluminum tubes that were "only suited" for nuclear centrifuge use, which statement was deliberately false and fraudulent, and made with reckless indifference to the truth in that it omitted to state the following material facts: (1) the U.S. intelligence community was deeply divided about the likely use of the tubes; (2) there were at least fifteen intelligence reports written since April 2001 that cast doubt on the tubes' possible nuclear-related use; and (3) the U.S. Department of Energy nuclear weapons experts had concluded, after analyzing the tubes's specifications and the circumstances of the Iraqis' attempts to procure them, that the aluminum tubes were not well suited for nuclear centrifuge use and were more likely intended for artillery rocket production.

First red flag, NOTHING is mentioned about what those tubes “actually” were for if they weren’t sufficient for use in a nuclear centrifuge.

Next red flags.

The intelligence community was deeply divided. Meaning, there was a group that strongly believed that they could be used for a nuclear program and there was a group that strongly believed otherwise.

The author places more weight on the side that doesn’t believe that this was the case. This is a no brainer as she disagrees with the President. Then she canvases the assessments she favored in a way that made it look like the entire community agreed with them. Which wasn’t the case.

On the intelligence reports, the same thing. There were at least fifteen intelligence reports written that opposed the idea. But those reports didn’t form a consensus, and the other reports indicated the opposite position.

Again, the author takes the side that argues “no” and canvasses the entire group of intelligence reports.

The third point she makes misses the point behind improvising. Anybody that’s been around the world would see numerous examples of things, that are not well suited for certain purposes, being used for those purposes anyway.

The ones that she agrees with didn’t speak for the entire community, or population sample, of the organizations or papers she brought up.

Meaning, there was enough argument in favor of what the Administration was arguing that under Asymmetrical Warfare, ignoring them in favor of the assumption that we didn’t have a certain threat doesn’t constitute that threat not being there.

Elizabeth, the anti Bush author of these charges, misses that point.

Again, this isn’t fraud, but the commander in chief acting in our security best interest.


F. On September 8, 2002, RUMSFELD stated on Face the Nation: "Imagine a September 11th, with weapons of mass destruction. It's not three thousand, it's tens of thousands of innocent men, women and children," which statement was deliberately fraudulent and misleading in that it implied without reasonable basis and in direct contradiction to then prevailing intelligence that Saddam Hussein had no operational relationship with al Qaeda and was unlikely to provide weapons to terrorists.

Not true. Prevailing intelligence DIDN’T discount an INDIRECT relationship between Saddam and Al-Qaeda. Saddam built Salman Pak, a terror training camp. That camp’s last commander admitted that they took and trained Al-Qaeda in Salman Pak.

During the first Persian Gulf War, Saddam sent 100 terrorists out to attack our interests. Those plots failed.

Ever since the Persian Gulf War, he always saw himself at war with the United States. He was always looking for a way to attack the US where it hurts. In fact, during a TV interview in the mid 90s, they asked him if he had a nuclear weapon.

His response? “Of course not, if I did, I’d send it to Washington D.C.!”

How could he do that without an intercontinental ballistic missile? Easy, a member of a terrorist organization’s martyrdom brigade.

Osama Bin Laden was looking on getting his hands on a WMD that’ll wreck mass casualties on US soil.
Their planing the 9/11 attacks was partly in response to their dissatisfaction with the low U.S. casualty rates at overseas U.S. interests.

Those who say that they couldn’t imagine Osama and Saddam working together, that they couldn’t imagine that Saddam would give Al-Qaeda WMD, miss the point behind the saying, “An enemy of my enemy is a friend.” THAT’S an ARAB saying.

We provided aid to the Soviet Union during World War II, two countries whose ideologies were further apart than that between a Shiite and a Sunni. Only a fool would assume that no such relation could form between Saddam and Al-Qaeda.

Under asymmetrical warfare, a joint Al-Qaeda and Saddam effort to detonate four nuclear weapons at one time on the U.S. mainland is a very strong possibility. Al-Qaeda gets bragging rights, and Saddam carries out what he wishes while maintaining deniability.

Implied without reasonable basis? Bullshit! That assessment was very reasonable, and fell within asymmetrical warfare. Rumsfeld’s (sp) assessment reflected reality.


I wonder if Elizabeth saw the 9/11 commission’s statement getting on the government’s failure to exercise an IMAGINATION capable of envisioning how things like 9/11 could be carried out.

G. On September 19, 2002, RUMSFELD told the Senate Armed Services Committee that "no terrorist state poses a greater or more immediate threat to the security of our people than the regime of Saddam Hussein," which statement was, as Rumsfeld well knew, made without reasonable basis and with reckless indifference to the truth in that: (1) Hussein had not acted aggressively toward the United States since his alleged attempt to assassinate President George H. W. Bush in 1993; (2) Iraq's military forces and equipment were severely debilitated because of UN sanctions imposed after the 1991 Gulf War; (3) the IC's opinion was that Iraq's sponsorship of terrorists was limited to ones whose hostility was directed toward Israel; and (4) Iran, not Iraq, was the most active state sponsor of terrorism.

WRONG.

Out of all the states that we were dealing with, none had all the following criteria:

1. Invaded neighboring countries TWO times in less than a 15 year time frame.

2. Used WMD in anger.

3. Had a cease fire agreement with us which they violated.

4. Had a leader that hosted radical terrorist conventions, and appeared at these conventions to make death to America threats.

5. Was in a hot state of war with us, where they traded fire with us. The statement that he didn’t act hostilely against us since the assassination attempts is wrong. He constantly fired at our aircraft while they patrolled the No Fly Zone.

Contrary to popular belief, the Iraq War was a continuation of a war that NEVER ENDED. And Saddam properly saw that Iraq and the United States were in a state of war against each other. 

Meanwhile . . .

Al-Qaeda is looking for someone that’ll give them WMD to use against the United States.

Under Asymmetrical warfare, you DON’T need a military, or a ballistic missile system, to deliver a blow to the United States, or to any other country in the world.

All you need is a willing member of a terrorist’s martyrdom brigade. The argument about Iraq’s military state is a non argument given that fact, thus the administration’s arguments still stand.

Also, on the statement that Iraq’s support for terrorism was limited to those that were hostile against Israel is wrong.

Again, he tried to send terrorists against our interests during the first Gulf War. Additionally, he hosted radical terrorist conventions, many of these terrorists had hostile intensions for the US. Bet they loved Saddam’s “Death to America” speaches.


H. On October 1, 2002, the defendants caused the IC's updated classified National Intelligence Estimate to be delivered to Congress just hours before the beginning of debate on the Authorization to Use Military Force. At the same time, the defendants caused an unclassified "White Paper" to be published which was false and misleading in many respects in that it failed to include qualifying language and dissents that substantially weakened their argument that Iraq posed a serious threat to the United States.

The first charge is misleading. The National Intelligence Estimate would’ve generated the report much later. However, their report was moved up in order to accommodate the debate taking place with regards to whether to authorize military action or not.

The second part doesn’t provide any proof that what that white paper talked about was “misleading”. Unlike the other charges on this farse of a charge, this one is generalized and lacks specificity.

However, if it came from the administration, it contained an assessment that reflected the asymmetrical reality that we faced.

NOTE: The author of this charge would label things that she disagrees with as “misleading”.  


I. On October 7, 2002, in Cincinnati, Ohio, BUSH made numerous deliberately misleading statements to the nation, including stating that in comparison to Iran and North Korea, Iraq posed a uniquely serious threat, which statement BUSH well knew was false and fraudulent in that it omitted to state the material fact that a State Department representative had been informed just three days previously that North Korea had actually already produced nuclear weapons. The defendants continued to conceal this information until after Congress passed the Authorization to Use Military Force against Iraq.

And Iraq DID pose a unique and serious threat compared to Iran and North Korea.

Iran has enough of a critical mass to where they could end up changing from within, and becoming a democratic state. North Korea is bordered, on all sides, by countries that don’t want it to have nuclear weapons.

And, unlike Iraq, neither North Korea nor Iran had ALL of the following under their belt . . .

Neither invaded two countries in a 15 year time frame within the past 27 years.

North Korea has a cease fire agreement with us, and they’re not going out of their way to violate that cease fire agreement on a continuous basis.

That statement that an official was notified that North Korea already had a bomb was false. It wouldn’t make sense to wait a long time to test a nuclear bomb if the international community was intent on getting you to stop.

North Korea would’ve detonated their first nuclear bomb to test it as soon as they created it. No such test conducted in 2002.

The administration is going to get many reports of many things. It’s up to him and his administration to come up with an assessment based on all the reports that they get.

If one guys says that North Korea already has a bomb, and a few others disagree with that assessment, its up to the President to decide which side has more weight, and act on that.

Unlike Iran and North Korea, Iraq is in the right spot for us to open up another Democratic front. Now, we have a checkerboard pattern of democracies in the Middle East that surround one or two problem child countries.


J. Between September 1, 2002, and November 2, 2002, BUSH traveled the country making in excess of thirty congressional-campaign speeches in which he falsely and fraudulently asserted that Iraq was a "serious threat" which required immediate action, when as he well knew, this assertion was made without reasonable basis and with reckless indifference to the truth.

This is just the author’s opinion.

With the way the charge is written, she’s acting like she knows for a fact what Bush’s cognitive processes where. She erroneously assumed that the President sees things through the end of a soda straw just like the way she sees things.

She’s taking conclusions made long after the fact and applying it to 2002, hoping the reader wouldn’t be smart enough to figure out that we didn’t have hindsite back then.

The statement that Iraq under Saddam possessed a serious threat to us IS NOT a “false” and “misleading” “assertion”, but an assessment that understands the asymmetric warfare realities that we face.

Saddam with WMD, Al-Qaeda with a need to use WMD. The enemy of my enemy is a friend, both hate the US and want to see it hurt bad.

Do the math.

Fruad? NO. Asymmetric reality? YES.


K. In his January 28, 2003 State of the Union address, BUSH announced that the "British have recently learned that Iraq was seeking significant quantities of uranium from Africa" which statement was fraudulent and misleading and made with reckless disregard for the truth, in that it falsely implied that the information was true, when the CIA had advised the administration more than once that the allegation was unsupported by available intelligence.

From the American Enterprise website, Urban Legends about the Iraq War:

Reality: On July 14, 2004—after a nearly half-year investigation—a special panel reported to the British Parliament that British intelligence had indeed concluded that Saddam Hussein was seeking to buy uranium from Africa. The Review of Intelligence on Weapons of Mass Destruction, chaired by Lord Butler, summarized: “It is accepted by all parties that Iraqi officials visited Niger in 1999. The British government had intelligence from several different sources indicating that this visit was for the purpose of acquiring uranium…. The statement in President Bush’s State of the Union Address of 28 January 2003 that ‘The British Government has learned that Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa’ was well-founded.”

The only person that’s being reckless and showing willful disregard for the truth is the author of these charges.

L. In a February 5, 2003, speech to the UN, POWELL falsely implied, without reasonable basis and with reckless disregard for the truth, that, among other things: (1) those who maintained that Iraq was purchasing aluminum tubes for rockets were allied with Saddam Hussein, even though POWELL well knew that both Department of Energy nuclear weapons experts and State Department intelligence analysts had concluded that the tubes were not suited for nuclear centrifuge use; and (2) Iraq had an ongoing cooperative relationship with al Qaeda, when he well knew that no intelligence agency had reached that conclusion.

The first point with regards to Powell made was spot on. Many of the people that argued that Iraq was purchasing aluminum tubes for rockets WERE allied to Saddam Hussein. That’s called using deceit and misinformation to deflect enemy charges of what you’re doing, and to try to discredit the enemy. And deceive them as to your true intentions.

As for the statement about the tubes:

The third point she makes misses the point behind improvising. Anybody that’s been around the world would see numerous examples of things, that are not well suited for certain purposes, being used for those purposes anyway.

Other parts of the world don’t have the West’s technical standards when it comes to things like this. For example, people thought that the Soviets were more advanced than we were in space technology--until the Apollo Suez linkup.

The Soviet’s initial successes against us partly resulted from them using less advanced technology than what we were using doing the same thing.

That’s an example of third world attitude today, where they’ll attempt to use technology and engineering that isn’t as advanced as our own to do the same job we’re doing with more advanced technology.

Under asymmetrical warfare, (HINT: Think outside the box), only a fool would dismiss these tubes’s possible usability.

As for the cooperative relationship between Iraq and Al-Qaeda. Again, Saddam built Salman Pak. Believe it or not, it was built around the time Al-Qaeda bottom lined the Bojinka Project (what eventually evolved into the 9/11 plots.) This was during the mid 90s.

According to Salman Pak’s commander at the time that fascility was captured, Al-Qaeda went through that camp to receive terror training.

NOTE: They had an Airliner model on the grounds where they trained terrorists to take over the craft with nail cutters, box cutters, and other unusual items we wouldn’t think of as “weapons”. (Asymmetrical warfare at work).

They didn’t have that in Afghanistan. Something to think about.


M. On March 18, 2003, BUSH sent a letter to the Speaker of the House of Representatives and the President Pro Tempore of the Senate which asserted that further reliance on diplomatic and peaceful means alone would not either: (1) adequately protect United States national security against the "continuing threat posed by Iraq" or (2) likely lead to enforcement of all relevant UN Security Council resolutions regarding Iraq, which statement was made without reasonable basis and with reckless indifference to the truth in that, as BUSH well knew, the U.S. intelligence community had never reported that Iraq posed an urgent threat to the United States and there was no evidence whatsoever to prove that Iraq had either the means or intent to attack the U.S. directly or indirectly. The statement was also false because, as BUSH well knew, the UN weapons inspectors had not found any weapons of mass destruction in Iraq and wanted to continue the inspection process because it was working well.

President Bush’s statements were based on historical precedent, check this inspection timeline out:

http://usinfo.state.gov/products/pubs/iraq/timeline.htm

Saddam played cat and mouse with the international community throughout the first inspections. And did precisely the same things during the second inspection rounds. There’s no way that these inspections were going well.

This is kind of like the saying, insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. Or something like that.

The inspectors were only saying that to avert going to war.

It didn’t matter what we did, if we continued much the same things, Saddam would’ve still played cat and mouse with the international community. His plan was that after the inspectors gave him a clean bill of health, he’d have the WMD that he sent to Syria shipped back to Iraq.

Then continue on with his WMD programs:


http://www.theamericanenterprise.org/issues/articleID.18837/article_detail.asp

quote:

Urban Legend: Saddam Hussein posed no threat. In the words of former Senator Max Cleland, “Iraq was no threat. We now know that. There are no weapons of mass destruction, no nuclear weapons programs, no ties to al-Qaeda. We now know that.”

Reality: Upon his return from Iraq, weapons inspector David Kay, head of the Iraq Survey Group, said in Senate testimony: “I think the world is far safer with the disappearance and the removal of Saddam Hussein…. I actually think this may be one of those cases where it was even more dangerous than we thought…. After 1998, it became a regime that was totally corrupt….
And in a world where we know others are seeking WMD, the likelihood at some point in the future of a seller and a buyer meeting up would have made that a far more dangerous country.”

Dr. Kay’s report noted that, “We have discovered dozens of WMD-related program activities and significant amounts of equipment that Iraq concealed from the United Nations during the inspections that began in late 2002.” He concluded, “Saddam, at least as judged by those scientists and other insiders who worked in his military-industrial programs, had not given up his aspirations and intentions to continue to acquire weapons of mass destruction…. Saddam intended to resume these programs whenever the external restrictions were removed. Several of these officials acknowledge receiving inquiries since 2000 from Saddam or his sons about how long it would take to restart CW [chemical weapons] production.”


All he needed to do was to fool the weapons inspectors that he had nothing, then have the UN lift the restrictions. Something that Russia and China were pushing for.

Judging by this person’s statements, that the inspections were “doing well”, it looked like Saddam could’ve succeeded doing just that.

Not finding WMD is not the same as “no evidence”. Again, before I made my first post on this message board, you had no evidence that I existed.

And she misses the point on intelligence reports. They’re going to report what they have on a country, and leave the reader with the option to look at what they presented and draw their own conclusions.

Unlike an estimate, where they give their assessment of something.

This author puts words in what these documents say, and implies that the President saw the same things she believes in. Never mind that she doesn’t have the clearance to view the same kind of information the President views.


N. In the same March 18, 2003 letter, BUSH also represented that taking action pursuant to the Resolution was "consistent with continuing to take the necessary actions against international terrorists and terrorist organizations, including those nations, organizations or persons who planned, authorized, committed, or aided the terrorists attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001," which statement was entirely false and without reasonable basis in that, as BUSH well knew, Iraq had no involvement with al Qaeda or the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001.

The resolution that the above talks about:

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2003/03/20030319-1.html

“Consistent with section 3(b) of the Authorization for Use of Military Force Against Iraq Resolution of 2002 (Public Law 107-243), and based on information available to me, including that in the enclosed document, I determine that:”

What information was available to him? Good chance that it talked about something like this:

http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/home/cold/salman_pak.guest.html

http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/home/cold/salman_pak.Par.0001.ImageFile.jpg

http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/world/iraq/salman_pak.htm

“Former Iraqi military officers have described a highly secret terrorist training facility at Salman Pak, where both Iraqis and non-Iraqi Arabs receive training on hijacking planes and trains, planting explosives in cities, sabotage, and assassinations.”

http://www.nationalreview.com/murdock/murdock040703.asp

“Confirming that Operation Iraqi Freedom is an integral part of the war on terror, soldiers of the 7th Marine Regiment destroyed a suspected terrorist camp early Sunday en route to Baghdad. Located a mile east of the Tigris River, the Salman Pak base was exactly where U.S. terrorism experts and Iraqi defectors said it would be”

Again, this is where terrorists learned how to hijack aircraft with BOX CUTTERS among other things.

NOTE: After the 9/11 attacks, Saddam evacuated many of his installations.

Also, throughout the “charges”, the author constantly accused certain people of saying things they “knew” wasn’t “true”. The author arrogantly assumes that her position was a “no brainer”, and that these people were deliberately disregarding the “facts” just so that they could invade Iraq.

Yet, the only person that I saw who showed reckless disregard for the truth, and the facts, is Elizabeth de la Vega, an anti Bush person with an ax to grind.

Another thing that she does is take the results of an investigation after the fact, and SECOND GUESSES decisions made before the fact, as if the views of these investigations were obvious back then.

I’m getting a sense that you DELIBERATELY failed to link your source for fear that we wouldn’t trust it:


http://www.commondreams.org/views06/1129-32.htm

HMM, who wrote that? Elizabeth de la Vega maybe?

Elizabeth needs to read the book, “Unrestricted Warfare,” and consult subject matter experts, on both sides of the argument, on this subject. Otherwise, she should just stick with her profession and stay out of discussions dealing with National Security and the geostratigic environment.

Otherwise, she’s like a kid intrusted with something that only adults should manage. She did a good job at hurting her credibility with the above farce she calls “the charges”. And does further damage by adding to the arsenal of those who have problems getting off their hind ends to learn what’s actually going on.

I’d LOVE to see her get subjected to cross examination.

(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 412
RE: An example of why our military loves the press .... - 11/2/2007 1:55:21 PM   
herfacechair


Posts: 1046
Joined: 8/29/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

What you need to do, to support your claim, is defend, for Bush, against THESE charges.



I’ve successfully provided a reasoned, logical, and substantiated argument against each of those charges.

Those charges don’t prove that the President and the other defendants committed “fraud” or any other crime or misdemeanor. Had this gone into a REAL court of law, the defense attorney would pulverize the person advancing these arguments and the Jury would acquit the defendants.

Heck, I’d love to see the person that came up with those charges squirm in their chair under cross examination. I’d love to see the expression on their face as their houses of cards fall apart.

It speaks volumes that a democrat controlled congress won’t take those charges up against the president.

I don’t think that moderate democrats/classical liberals would by those arguments, may even go through and destroy many of them as well.

Again, you’ve failed to prove that the president committed conspiracy.

(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 413
RE: An example of why our military loves the press .... - 11/2/2007 2:11:22 PM   
herfacechair


Posts: 1046
Joined: 8/29/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle


quote:

ORIGINAL: herfacechair

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

Which of these is a lie, and what facts contradict them?


Your argument, that we pulled out because of Bin Laden’s request, isn’t represented in the facts that you bring up, quoted below. The argument that we pulled out because of Bin Laden’s request doesn’t reflect reality.

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

August 1995: Bin Laden Criticizes Saudi Royals, Threatens Attacks on US Forces in Saudi Arabia

August 1996: Bin Laden Calls for Attack on Western Targets in Arabia
May 26, 1998: Bin Laden Promises to Bring Jihad to US

April 30-August 26, 2003: US Withdraws Most of Its Troops from Saudi Arabia, Fulfilling Key Bin Laden Demand

The withdrawal of US troops from Saudi Arabia has been bin Laden’s most persistent demand since the troops entered the country in 1990.

For instance, in his 1996 fatwa (see August 1996), he said, “The latest and greatest of these aggressions incurred by Muslims since the death of the Prophet… is the occupation of the land of the two Holy Places… by the armies of the American Crusaders and their allies.” [Daily Telegraph, 4/30/2003]


This is precisely what I’m talking about when I mention that you’re using inductive fallacy. In order for your premise to be true, we’d have to pull out immediately after the 9/11 attacks, like in the fall or winter of 2001/early 2002.

NOT in the spring and summer of 2003, up to two years after Bin Laden’s last act against us.

Our pulling out immediately after 9/11 would establish a cause and effect to prove your premise true. But that’s not how it happened.

The last attack against us, prior to our pulling out, was almost two years later. That’s a large lag that proves your premise, that we pulled out because of Bin Laden’s request, WRONG.

Again:

Say you don’t feel like eating. Your wife makes hourly demands that you eat something. But you refuse.


Finally, you get hungry. You get up and head to the kitchen so that you could eat. Right when you pass the room your wife is in, on your way to the kitchen, she tells you to grab something to eat.

In this case, did you eat because your wife told you to, or did you eat because you were hungry?

HINT: You refused to eat when you weren’t hungry, despite her constant demands.

Now, copy and paste the below options, and place an “X” in your response.


Q: Why did you eat in this scenario?

1. You ate because you were hungry [    ]
2. You ate because your wife told you to [    ]


Simply copy and paste those options, and place an X in the answer. You’re restricted to the above scenario in answer that question.

Your failure to answer the question, per the above directions, will speak volumes abut the faith and confidence you place in your premise that we pulled out “because” of bin Laden.


quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

One senior US military official says the decision to leave was made partly to help relieve internal political pressure on the royal family: “The Saudis will be happy when we leave. But they’re concerned that it not look as if it’s precipitous, because it will look like bin Laden won.” [Washington Post, 4/30/2003]


On the first part, partly. The MAJOR reason behind our pulling out was that Operation Southern Watch was no longer applicable.

On the second part, Bin Laden ISN’T in Saudi Arabia. That pressure came from within Saudi Arabia.

On the third part, LOOKS LIKE, they’re not saying that HE DID “win”. This supports what I’ve argued, with regards to inductive fallacy. The way it’s worded, they’re concerned about a misconception about why we did that. And that misconception would be one that Bin Laden “won” this. Which isn’t true, and isn’t supported in that quote.


quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

One unnamed senior Saudi prince who participated in high-level debates about the withdrawal says, “We are fighting for our lives, and we are going to do what is necessary to save our behinds.” New York Times, 4/30/2003]


This isn’t something that has to do with what Bin Laden wanted, he was talking about internal pressure in Saudi Arabia. Again, Bin Laden isn’t in Saudi Arabia. He’s somewhere else.




If a simple timeline is too challenging, there's nothing else I can contribute to the discussion.


If you were trying to get people to agree with your inductive fallacy, you’re wasting your time.

If anything, I’m using that timeline to prove my point. You’re using inductive fallacy. Since that timeline preceded our pulling out, we “pulled” out “because” of that timeline.

I’m arguing that the timeline of events that you presented is SEPARATE from our decision to pull out of Saudi Arabia.

The timeline isn’t at question. If you didn’t leave out the rest of the stuff I said, which I put back, it’d been obvious. Or are you afraid to answer a simple question truthfully without proving your entire argument wrong?

As for your contributions to this discussion, LOL!

(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 414
RE: An example of why our military loves the press .... - 11/2/2007 2:12:52 PM   
herfacechair


Posts: 1046
Joined: 8/29/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: pinkme2

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle


quote:

ORIGINAL: pinkme2

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle


quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

Since DADT is specifically for the military, there isn't going to be any investigation, any more than there was going to be one against Janet Reno


Yeah, that's my point. It's wrong that State gets a pass ( and DOJ ), while people taking the risk of dying have to be shit on by their branch of service.

Being SHIT ON is worst than being SPIT ON, innit?


I gave you all the reasons that the military was treated differently.


I don't buy your excuses for bigotry.


LOL  That's hilarious!



It’s funny watching someone pull those stunts when they’ve been bested in an argument. Simply make something up just to have something to say, plus leave out what other people say so that they could be taken out of context.

(in reply to pinkme2)
Profile   Post #: 415
RE: An example of why our military loves the press .... - 11/2/2007 2:31:13 PM   
DMFParadox


Posts: 1405
Joined: 9/11/2007
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Wow.  This is the clearest defense of the Iraqi war I've ever seen.  I was honestly leaning towards hanging Bush, but this does make me reconsider.

Of course, I've never really objected to the way we started the war.  I have objected to the way we ran it.  And the way we ran the rebuilding process.  That was embarrasing enough to make EVERYTHING leading up to the war look bad; hell, it practically makes the Revolutionary war look like a bad idea, because it ended up putting us in charge of this mess.

I mean, using packets of $100 bills as fricken' footballs?  Destroying the best medical system in the middle east--not during the war, but AFTER IT?  *Losing* 27 billion dollars in contractor's fees?  It's an absolute circus over there right now.  What the f*ck is going on with the actual rebuilding process that these things can happen?  I might be exaggerating, but only slightly... look up the reports on it, it's a real eye opener.  I'm not sitting on top of the news reports that gave me those concepts, so take it with a grain of salt and do your own research.  But that's where my opinion is right now.


_____________________________

bloody hell, get me some aspirin and a whiskey straight

"The role of gender in society is the most complicated thing I’ve ever spent a lot of time learning about, and I’ve spent a lot of time learning about quantum mechanics." - Randall Munroe

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Profile   Post #: 416
RE: An example of why our military loves the press .... - 11/2/2007 3:32:27 PM   
herfacechair


Posts: 1046
Joined: 8/29/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DMFParadox

Wow.  This is the clearest defense of the Iraqi war I've ever seen.  I was honestly leaning towards hanging Bush, but this does make me reconsider.

Of course, I've never really objected to the way we started the war.  I have objected to the way we ran it.  And the way we ran the rebuilding process.  That was embarrasing enough to make EVERYTHING leading up to the war look bad; hell, it practically makes the Revolutionary war look like a bad idea, because it ended up putting us in charge of this mess.

I mean, using packets of $100 bills as fricken' footballs?  Destroying the best medical system in the middle east--not during the war, but AFTER IT?  *Losing* 27 billion dollars in contractor's fees?  It's an absolute circus over there right now.  What the f*ck is going on with the actual rebuilding process that these things can happen?  I might be exaggerating, but only slightly... look up the reports on it, it's a real eye opener.  I'm not sitting on top of the news reports that gave me those concepts, so take it with a grain of salt and do your own research.  But that's where my opinion is right now.




I’ve done my own research on what’s going on over there, and they range from experience, to research and reading, both online and offline, as well as sources of information that the public doesn’t normally have access to.

Your position is an example of what I see when I talk to people over here. It’s criminal that the mainstream media doesn’t put things into proper perspective, blowing things out of proportion instead and making things worse than they actually are.

Consequently, just as the media blows things out of proportion as to what’s going on over there, people end up with an exaggerated version of one part of what’s actually going on in Iraq.

I’ve seen some of those reports that you might be talking about, and they’ve raised red flags with me whenever an attempt was made to tie them to the administration, or to the U.S. military.

Reading deeper into that report, you find something else going on, which attempts to apply a zero defect mentality to an operation the author doesn’t agree with.

Ever since the beginning, we started to turn projects over to the Iraqi government. We had to do this to make the government take on less of an appearance of being a puppet and more of one that the people saw as their own. We followed through on this through the election process, where they eventually created their own constitution and their own government.

While all of this was going on, we turned over more and more administrative functions to the Iraqi government, letting them take on more of a responsibility for their own reconstruction.

We’ve got to do that. Not only do we have to mature their military enough to stand on their own two feet, we have to mature their government and other agencies to operate without having us as a crutch.

They’re going to make mistakes. No nation is perfect. Right now, the surge is starting to shift focus to fighting mafia like corruption.

EPGAH touched on one thing that leads to where they could’ve done better on the military side. Putting too much restraint on our troops for politically correct reasons. Many of these restraints placed on them by the Iraqi government.

However, allot of this was lifted effective the surge, when the troops finally were able to do things they couldn’t do before because of politically correct restrictions. We’ve made lots of headway since then.

Also, try conducting a reconstruction when you have an insurgency that’s bombing each other and the US military. Allot of the infrastructure damage you talk about resulted in the hands of the terrorists who’re trying to work hard against us, and the Iraqi government, at every turn.

However, despite the terrorist interruption, our reconstruction efforts are progressing. Even hard core opponents who go over there end up coming back with a statement that amounts to them grudgingly admitting that things are going well over there.

And given the time that country’s infrastructure deteriorated, what we’ve done since the invasion represents light years worth of improvements over what they had before.

Also, you ask how all these things could happen during the reconstruction. Show me a country that’s perfect, where there’s no corruption, bribery, and where people don’t lose hold of their accountability, either by negligence or foul intentions, and I’ll turn around and raise a commotion as to why things aren’t going “perfectly” over there.

Since you mentioned the Revolutionary War, believe it or not it had its detractors. It wasn’t even a popular war, was very dirty, and bloody as heck. Not quite what they teach in the history books in High School. Nothing mentioned about the humanitarian crises that resulted for example. Nor about the laws the Patriot’s passed authorizing the continental army to SEIZE cattle from their owners, in exchange for what was then worthless American money, against the owner’s will.

Things didn’t go clean during the Revolutionary War, and they’re not exactly going clean during this war.

Earlier, I referenced a report that took place in post World War II Europe. Reading that report, you would’ve thought that post war Europe was nothing but a circus. Kind of hard to think that way now given what they’re doing right now.
 

(in reply to DMFParadox)
Profile   Post #: 417
RE: An example of why our military loves the press .... - 11/2/2007 5:34:26 PM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
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yep, you seem to insinuate that the blow out is on one side.

Mordant is not commensurate to  legitimate.  Examining the 12 years before the current war, which we helped arm in the 80's and until the time of the war, we have to say that they were better off 4 years ago then they are now.  It is interesting that nobody talks about the good things or it doesn't get press or facts  in situ are not ever presented because of the liberal media or whatever you gedankens are whining about now.

Fact is; that place was running pretty smoothly before we stuck our beaks in there, fact is; that there were no WMD,  fact is; the american installed government there aint working for shit. fact is; ..... ad infinitum.

Fact is; that we are poorly placed to export our enlightenment to the world, since we  can't even wipe our own ass...

Now,  fact is, that dams were figured out before writing, and we can't with the terrible might and deep pockets and shitbreathers with their ass in a swivel chair and their feet in the wastebasket build a fucking dam, or throw up electricity, or introduce toilet paper to  a country that don't want us there and haven't really harmed us.

Iraq --- WMD--- show me!!!
Iraq---Nucular --show me!!
Iraq ---according to our plan for their enlightenment------show me!!!

Iraq a threat to the world stability--show me!!!

The plan for the middle east that fixes whatever might be wrong with them--show me!!!

so far, I hear oh----------!!! there is plenty of evidence, or we have fixed it so well that nobody else can fix it------

We do not seek a wider war.
We are winning the war of attrition.
We are the only thing standing in the way of anarchy.
We are the guardians that will prevent a domino effect.

Lyndon Johnson


_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to herfacechair)
Profile   Post #: 418
RE: An example of why our military loves the press .... - 11/2/2007 7:29:08 PM   
DMFParadox


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Joined: 9/11/2007
Status: offline
Your account of the Revolutionary War was spot-on.  Frankly, the dirt on Washington, the fact that he was a scoundrel turned into a hero, makes him more of a hero in my book.  But try to get them to teach the actual history in a primary school classroom.  Meh.

Anyway, as for the Iraqi war--it, too, is a hairball.  I understand your perspective, and I respect the balanced reply you gave.  I reiterate that the way we've handled the rebuilding is an embarrassment, even to a neutral observer.  I don't consider myself a dittohead of mainstream OR alternative media; I look at the sources, and I use fairly critical judgement. 

Your counterargument raised three major points that hit me (there may have been more, but I'm tired, and not in the best shape for a thorough debate.)  First, you say that the impetus to assign responsibility and power over to the Iraqi government caused mistakes to be made--but mistakes that were unavoidable.  I agree that this is a valid argument, on the face of it.  Secondly, you mention that the insurgency created a major block towards reconstruction efforts.  This too has value as an argument.  Third, you mention that the effects of reconstruction cannot be seen very quickly, and that if we are patient we'll see improvement.  On this, I cannot agree at all. 

Without committing myself to any of these points, I'd like to cover the responses that come to mind.

First, Iraq was a zone of legal purgatory.  The old regime's laws were gone, American contract law had no jurisdiction, and no other stable system was in place.  I could research what governing body had ultimate responsibility over this, but I don't want to.  It's enough that it was our responsibility to assign a governing body to handle and enforce contract law, and that the body failed in its role.  This would be a primary, absolute top priority for a paranoid and distrustful bastard like me, when I'm bringing in thousands of money-hungry small (and big) contractors.  That this was not handled well is our responsibility, or possibly the responsibility of the U.N. council.  I dunno, you figure it out; who was in charge? In any event, it's clear how money might have been lost.  Haliburton alone vanished billions of dollars... what did they spend it on?

We don't live in the 20th century anymore; we live in the 21st, where our ability to handle complex systems integration and manage information is vastly superior--despite the regrettable rebuilding efforts in New Orleans, which I also consider criminal.  The Iraqi initial conquest took weeks, not years.  Civil infrastructure had light-to-moderate damage--at first.  And we had a population that initially regarded us as heroes toppling statues of Hussein for us when we came in.  Insurgency has been growing steadily, and the front-line reports of Iraqi citizens are almost unanimous in despairing the way that occupation was handled.  No, this is a mess that we created, and it should never have even been considered that it would take years to rebuild.  Political systems, maybe.  Medical?  Sanitation?  Transportation?  NO!  Those were already fine; *we* destroyed them through neglect.  Contrast this with the occupation of Japan, which was also a rabidly quasi-religious society.

Iraq, despite its leader, was not a hole in the ground.  It was, for all intents and purposes, the pride of the middle east.  It had a majority urban, well-educated population; doctors and lawyers and educators, not sheepherders.  There was a minimum of ethnic strife; people were too invested in the stable, modern lifestyles they had.

*Now* it's a hole in the ground.  And the doctors and lawyers have become suicide bombers. 

Here's a documentary of Fallujah:
http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=06/01/25/155226

I honestly can't care enough either way to really put fire into this argument.  Maybe if I was in the war, I could, but I'm reaching burnout from the overwhelming media coverage from both sides.  I'm losing track of up and down in Iraq.   And that's not like me.  As far as it goes, I think that the war reconstruction was abysmal, but if I really pursue that line of reasoning then I might be called on to put my money where my mouth is and help fix it, and I'm too busy right now.  So if you really want to convince me that our efforts are where they should be, then I'm not going to keep disagreeing; I'll just let you go on.  But if it ever comes to a vote, then I'm going to cast my ballot for 'hang the bastard.' 


_____________________________

bloody hell, get me some aspirin and a whiskey straight

"The role of gender in society is the most complicated thing I’ve ever spent a lot of time learning about, and I’ve spent a lot of time learning about quantum mechanics." - Randall Munroe

(in reply to herfacechair)
Profile   Post #: 419
RE: An example of why our military loves the press .... - 11/2/2007 9:27:58 PM   
herfacechair


Posts: 1046
Joined: 8/29/2004
Status: offline
mnotttertail: yep, you seem to insinuate that the blow out is on one side.

No insinuation here. I’m making factual statements. One side is looking at real world data, has access to information that the other side doesn’t have access to, and is making an assessment that matches reality.

As opposed to the detracting side, which is going out of its way to ignore the facts, and geostrategic realities in favor of cherry picking questionable data and arguments.

Then, when you come back and present the facts to that side of the argument, they go into melt down and do what people that I argue against typically do.

No, this isn’t an insinuation, but calling a spade a spade. If the other side of the argument would just quit frothing at the mouth over their hatred over Bush, and their dislike against the conservatives, and start seeing the threat that we actually face, they’d realize that what my side of the argument is saying is spot on.


mnotttertail: Mordant is not commensurate to legitimate.

Mordant doesn’t describe the argument that I present. A fact is a fact is a fact. “A” is “A”, whether you agree with it or not. Dismissing it as “not being equal” to legitimate doesn’t make it other than “legitimate.”

mnotttertail:  Examining the 12 years before the current war,

Examining the 12 years before the current war, we had people living under so much tyranny and oppression that people lived in fear of their lives. This was fear of the GOVERNMENT. It got to the point to where people were afraid to answer the phone.

Just look at one of the crimes that Saddam went on trial for. Summarily executing people in a town where there was an assassination attempt. Group punishment. Not to mention the torture that people in this town had to endure.

It got to the point to where people were wishing that the bombing would start soon, otherwise they’d kill themselves.

It speaks volumes when a human shield comes back from that country with a totally different outlook than when he entered the country. Especially when that outlook opposes what he agreed with before entering that country.


mnotttertail:  which we helped arm in the 80's and until the time of the war,

WRONG!

We didn’t arm the Iraqis in the 80s. Don’t mistake our giving them intel against the Iranians as our arming the Iraqis. If you want to look at who armed the Iraqis all this time, look to Russia, China, and France.


mnotttertail:  we have to say that they were better off 4 years ago then they are now.

Millions of Iraqis STRONGLY disagree with you. They were NOT better off before the war than they are now.

Just talk to the majority of the troops, and the people, that have spent long periods of time in Iraq, and who’ve made more than one trip to Iraq. They’ll tell you that things in their latest visit were BETTER than when they visited the place last.

And don’t tell me that getting shoved down the plastic shredder, feet first, by the government, is “better” than what they’re putting up with right now.

Their standard of living has gone up since we liberated that country, and their economy has grown faster after the war than before the war.

Heck, looking at our own history, people were saying that we were better off under the British during the aftermath of the Revolutionary War. Look at where we’re at today.

No, they’re better off today than they were four years ago, and that condition will get better in the future.


mnotttertail:  It is interesting that nobody talks about the good things or it doesn't get press or facts in situ are not ever presented because of the liberal media or whatever you gedankens are whining about now.

And it’s a fact that the mainstream media is negligent when it comes to reporting the good happening in Iraq right now.

One common complaint from troops returning from Iraq is that the Iraq they see reported on the News is nowhere NEAR the Iraq they spent a whole year in. And it speaks volumes when the troops have to cattle prod people from the media to film and talk about things that show that what we’re doing is serving the Iraqi well.

In fact, anybody willing to do a commonsense exercise would see what I’m talking about.

There have been leading Democrats who ranted and raved about how “bad” things were going in Iraq. Then make a statement contradicting their earlier positions as they compliment the progress going on in Iraq after they make a trip there.

You see, actually BEING in Iraq makes a BIG difference in a person’s perception. Especially if their opinions on Iraq are mostly based on media reports that represent the end of the straw view compared to the panorama of what’s REALLY going on.

You have a profession that has a higher percentage of Democrat supporters, compared to that of the general public, reporting on an operation supported by Republicans.

I dare you to connect the dots.


mnotttertail:  Fact is; that place was running pretty smoothly before we stuck our beaks in there,

No it wasn’t. It was a pressure cooker waiting to happen. Saddam acted as the pressure cooker. As soon as his reign ended, the successor would’ve ran a government where a bunch of cracks formed.

Iraq under Saddam was a “timebomb” waiting to happen. The longer it waited to explode, the worse the explosion.

Second, I don’t consider a dictatorship as running smoothy. If something was running smoothly, you WOULDN’T need FORCE to keep it running.

Third, why don’t you go to Iraq and tell the majority of their population that things ran smoothly in Iraq before the invasion?

I could go on, but I wouldn’t consider prewar Iraq as “running smooth.”


mnotttertail:  fact is; that there were no WMD,

Negative, that’s not fact.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,120137,00.html

quote:

BAGHDAD, Iraq— A roadside bomb containing sarin nerve agent (search) recently exploded near a U.S. military convoy, the U.S. military said Monday.

Bush administration officials told Fox News that mustard gas (search) was also recently discovered.

Two people were treated for "minor exposure" after the sarin incident but no serious injuries were reported. Soldiers transporting the shell for inspection suffered symptoms consistent with low-level chemical exposure, which is what led to the discovery, a U.S. official told Fox News.

"The Iraqi Survey Group confirmed today that a 155-millimeter artillery round containing sarin nerve agent had been found," Brig. Gen. Mark Kimmitt (search), the chief military spokesman in Iraq, told reporters in Baghdad. "The round had been rigged as an IED (improvised explosive device) which was discovered by a U.S. force convoy."


FACT: WMD consists of nuclear, biological, and chemical agents intended for use during hostilities.

FACT: Both Sarin and Mustard gas were discovered in Iraq post invasion.

FACT: Both Sarin and Mustard gas are chemical agents.


HENCE: IRAQ HAD WMD.

Therefore, the statement that Iraq had “no” WMD is NOT “fact” but FALSE.

Tell you what, copy and paste the below question to your reply, and put an “X” in the appropriate box. You could only choose one answer.

before you saw my first post on this message board, you had NO evidence of MY existence.


Did your not having evidence of my existence before I made my first post prove that I didn’t exist before making my post here? YES [   ] NO [   ]

DON’T reply to this thread until you answer that question per instruction.

mnotttertail:  fact is; the american installed government there aint working for shit.

Wrong on both counts.

First, we didn’t install that government. You could make that argument for the first one. However, it’s the IRAQI PEOPLE that INSTALLED the current government.

Second, there are things that governments in established countries around the world can’t accomplish effectively. Expecting the Iraqi government to do better than what it’s doing right now, given the complexities that they’re facing there, is asinine.

Third, that government IS WORKING. They may have some issues that they don’t agree on, that they’re still debating and hashing. Things like that happen in a Democracy.

Considering that this is a FLEDGELING democracy, your expectations, which ignore growing pains from going from a dictatorship to a democracy, are completely asinine.


mnotttertail:  fact is; ..... ad infinitum.

WRONG . . . ad infinitum

Reasoned argument proving you wrong . . . ad infinitum

More facts proving you wrong . . . ad infinitum

Conclusion that your “fact” is actually an OPINION . . . ad infinitum.


mnotttertail:  Fact is; that we are poorly placed to export our enlightenment to the world,

Don’t mistake your opinion as “fact”.

The fact that thousands of Iraqis braved mortar and death threats to head to their voting stations to cast a vote speaks volumes about your saying that we’re "not" in the proper place to assist other countries in achieving democracy.

Give people, living in dictatorships around the world, a choice, a real choice, and they’ll fight for a democratic government.

Just look at the people trying to escape these dictatorships to countries they see as being democratic.

As the Capa Familia of Western Civilization, a civilization that believes in democracy, it’s in our long term interest to leverage our strength to spread democracy throughout the globe.

Our status as a superpower, sharing interests with other western powers, puts us in a perfect place to help other countries achieve democracy, or move toward that form of government.


mnotttertail:  since we can't even wipe our own ass...

Show me a country that’s PERFECT, and you’ll have an argument.

Using that argument, a parent “shouldn’t” teach their kids anything, because they’re not perfect themselves.

We, as a country, aren’t perfect. But that’s not going to stop us from helping another country from improving it’s lot, especially if doing so solidifies our long term defense.


mnotttertail:  Now, fact is, that dams were figured out before writing, and we can't with the terrible might and deep pockets and shitbreathers with their ass in a swivel chair and their feet in the wastebasket build a fucking dam, or throw up electricity, or introduce toilet paper to a country that don't want us there and haven't really harmed us.

Wrong on all counts.

Again, you’re expecting miracles if you think that we could undo in four years what took someone else three decades to destroy.

Whatever we set out to do, we’ve accomplished. Need a new building? We’ve built it. Need electricity? We’ve routed electricity to more neighborhoods. Again, large sections of that country was without reliable electricity for decades. Expecting us to get the entire country to receive reliable electricity in just the amount of time we’ve been there after they had an ineffective one for decades is completely asinine.

And who said anything about introducing toilet paper? The free market is responsible for that. Nowhere are we forcing them to take toilet paper. Those who have western style toilet bowls may need them. Others with the other type of “toilet” may not be needed.

They clean their hind ends differently over there. We didn’t go to that country to change their toilet habits. Anybody that thinks otherwise is seriously misinformed.

Oh, and for a country that “don’t” want us there? WRONG. The vast majority of the Iraqis WANT us there. It’s the BAD GUYS that don’t want us there.

You see, I don’t listen to the bad guys. I listen to the vast majority of their population, represented by people that come up to our forces and say things like “Thank you” or “Thank for saving us”, or something like that.

If you were living there, you’d notice that its simple common sense that the majority of the Iraqis want us there until their government can do for them, security wise, what our military is currently doing.

This makes sense even to many of those that don’t quite like us, but see us as the lesser of the two evils.

And check this out. The thousands of Iraqis turning against their enemies, and fighting on our side, prove you wrong. If they wanted us out of there, they wouldn’t have turned to our side.


mnotttertail:  Iraq --- WMD--- show me!!!

Read the above link, and explanation. Sarin and Mustard gas, both WMD found in Iraq post invasion.

Or, you could simply talk to the soldier that was affected by Sarin gas use and try telling him that Iraq had “no” WMD. (Love to see what happens afterwards).


mnotttertail:  Iraq---Nucular --show me!!

That’s a non argument considering that we found chemical agents. Those chemical agents alone justify the administration’s arguments that Iraq had WMD.

mnotttertail:  Iraq ---according to our plan for their enlightenment------show me!!!

Go there in 20 years, and you’ll see what I’m talking about now.

mnotttertail:  Iraq a threat to the world stability--show me!!!

http://www.cnn.com/ALLPOLITICS/stories/1998/12/16/transcripts/clinton.html

quote:

President Clinton Statement, December 16, 1998

The hard fact is that so long as Saddam remains in power, he threatens the well-being of his people, the peace of his region, the security of the world.

The best way to end that threat once and for all is with a new Iraqi government -- a government ready to live in peace with its neighbors, a government that respects the rights of its people. Bringing change in Baghdad will take time and effort.
We will strengthen our engagement with the full range of Iraqi opposition forces and work with them effectively and prudently.


http://www.frankenlies.com/truth/bush-did-not-lie.htm

MADELEINE ALBRIGHT, SECRETARY OF STATE, CLINTON ADMINISTRATION: "Iraq is a long way from Ohio, but what happens there matters a great deal here. For the risk that the leaders of a rogue state will use nuclear, chemical or biological weapons against us or our allies is the greatest security threat we face. And it is a threat against which we must and will stand firm. In discussing Iraq, we begin by knowing that Saddam Hussein, unlike any other leader, has used weapons of mass destruction even against his own people." (CNN’s "Showdown With Iraq: International Town Meeting," 2/18/98)

SANDY BERGER, NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER, CLINTON ADMINISTRATION: "Some have suggested that we should basically turn away. We should close our eyes to this effort to create a safe haven for weapons of mass destruction. But imagine the consequences if Saddam fails to comply and we fail to act. Saddam will be emboldened believing the international community has lost its will. He will rebuild his arsenal of weapons of mass destruction, and someday, some way, I am certain, he will use that arsenal again as he has 10 times since 1983." (CNN’s "Showdown With Iraq: International Town Meeting," 2/18/98)

SEN. JOHN KERRY (D-MA): "Saddam Hussein has already used these weapons and has made it clear that he has the intent to continue to try, by virtue of his duplicity and secrecy, to continue to do so. … It is a threat with respect to the potential of terrorist activities on a global basis." (Press Conference, 2/23/98)

mnotttertail:  The plan for the middle east that fixes

I have a better idea. Go back and take as much time as necessary to read what I’ve said on this thread. This time, while cool, calm, and collected. I’ve laid that out for anybody on this forum, who goes through this thread, to see.

mnotttertail:  whatever might be wrong with them--show me!!!

First, that “might” be wrong? You don’t find anything “wrong” with an environment that encourages people to fly planes into buildings, or encourages kids to become homicide bombers?

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1423506/posts

http://www.pmw.org.il/tv%20part8.html First Clip, “Mickey Mouse”.

Could you imagine your kids hearing Big Bird talk about killing? All Clips. Picture your kids watching this instead of the normal after school programs.

http://www.pmw.org.il/tv%20part1.html

He meant that these are people that have no concept of humanity, if the above wasn’t enough for you, check this out:

http://www.magicplants.co.uk/videos/beheadingvideos.html

mnotttertail:  so far, I hear oh----------!!! there is plenty of evidence, or we have fixed it so well that nobody else can fix it------

I’ve presented that evidence throughout this thread. I’ve re-introduced some of that evidence here.

And no, nobody is saying that they fixed it so well that nobody else can fix it.

Reading comprehension would tell anybody reading my posts that my side of the argument is the only side giving a PRACTICAL solution to Iraq. One that doesn’t result in giving our enemies momentum in what they see is a larger campaign to covert the rest of us into radical Muslims.

Until you could prove otherwise, our solutions are better for our long term security, and survival as a nation, civilization, and culture.


< Message edited by herfacechair -- 11/2/2007 9:49:14 PM >

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