Choice as a method of control (Full Version)

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anopheles -> Choice as a method of control (8/2/2005 6:43:43 AM)

I'd be very much interested to hear what people have to say on the subject of using choice as a method of control. What I mean is this.

If I want my sub to go out to the car and get my cell phone that I forgot, as opposed to saying, "Go get my cell phone from the car," I say, "Will you go get your cell phone from the car?" Now she may not feel like doing it at that moment, more than likely she won't feel like it. There might be a time where she is completely naked, and fulfilling that task entails a lot more than just walking out the door. But she would do it, no matter how I phrased it, because she is good and obedient. The reason that I ask a question is because I like to give her a moment of pause, to make a choice, to say yes or no. This way, she has to think about her decision to submit to me, and decide again to submit to me everytime that she receives a task, rather than respond to every word out of my mouth, much as a dog might respond to his owner snapping his fingers and knowing to come. My feeling is that this reinforces and keeps her decision to submit to me perpetually fresh. She doesn't get conditioned to just do because she was told, she becomes conditioned to choose her Dominant.

The question is, since I am still rather new to this, has anyone used this method before? If so, how well did it work for you? Does it work well over the long term? Any thoughts and opinions greatly appreciated.



mistoferin -> RE: Choice as a method of control (8/2/2005 6:57:33 AM)

quote:

But she would do it, no matter how I phrased it, because she is good and obedient. The reason that I ask a question is because I like to give her a moment of pause, to make a choice, to say yes or no. This way, she has to think about her decision to submit to me, and decide again to submit to me everytime that she receives a task, rather than respond to every word out of my mouth, much as a dog might respond to his owner snapping his fingers and knowing to come. My feeling is that this reinforces and keeps her decision to submit to me perpetually fresh. She doesn't get conditioned to just do because she was told, she becomes conditioned to choose her Dominant.


I am fairly certain that you are looking for the Dominant perspective on this...but I will throw out the submissive perspective, or at least my submissive perspective.

I prefer commands to be given in the form of a question, for the very reasons you have stated...it makes me make a choice and reaffirm my submission with every task. I have had it phrased in such a way that takes that even one step farther...."Would you LIKE to go out to the car and get my cell phone for me?" This makes me break it down farther into...well no I really don't like having to drop what I am doing to go to the car....but yes, I really like doing things that please you because you are the one I have chosen to please.

I, of course will answer to commands that are just stated without choice, but if I had a preference, I would like them better just as you have described.



stormsfate -> RE: Choice as a method of control (8/2/2005 6:57:43 AM)

My owner rarely phrases instructions as orders, but whether he asks or tells, the meaning behind it is the same and his expectations are the same as if he had said "you will do such and such".


best regards,
fate



pup -> RE: Choice as a method of control (8/2/2005 7:02:47 AM)

I would say it would depend on the psychology.

I like going back to square on military style retraining from time to time. And I am an alpha. I am used to making on the fly decisions etc..

I follow orders with a good head on my shoulders, and anticipate most of them.


However.. If asked if I will do something... one could say I trained my owner never to ask (total joke btw)

If I am truly asked to make a decision like what kind of restaurant to go to.. I can get thoroughly confused. Not because I dont know what kind of restaurant I would like.. but because the Alpha in me takes over.. and I start analyzing what Mistress .. slave brothers etc.. would or could like.. and averaging that etc...

and then pup passes out.. lol


So usually if im asked "would you go get my cellphone from the car?"

My reply .. "NO!" .. to which I follow with immediately performing said task.


henceforth... I am no longer asked.. simply told XD


Alpha reaction FTW!



Leonidas -> RE: Choice as a method of control (8/2/2005 7:03:37 AM)

I don't use linguistically ambiguous syntax with a slave. A command posed as a question is what linguists call a "conversational postulate". It's understood in our culture to be a request, even though it's posted as a question. I prefer to be direct and unambiguous with a slave. If I command something, I will phrase it as a command, to which I expect an acknowledgement (yes, Master). If I want to give her a choice, I do.



imtempting -> RE: Choice as a method of control (8/2/2005 7:12:10 AM)

I was always asked to do something. Same at work. The boss would ask me to do something not tell as asking gets better results yet if I said no then id be told to do it.



MrThorns -> RE: Choice as a method of control (8/2/2005 7:14:21 AM)

I have a tendency to phrase directives in the form of a question. I think this is just because I value courtesy. There is no doubt, however, that there is no real choice to be made. Smilezz does, from time to time, like to test this. Here's an example.

Me: Pet, would you please grab me a soda?

Smilezz: Hmmmmz. Would I? Hmmmmmz...(Insert cheeky grin)

Me: (Cocks an eyebrow)

Smilezz: Absolutely Master!

I do have to alternate eyebrows, lest I develop one more than the other and get a lopsided forhead.

~Thorns



anopheles -> RE: Choice as a method of control (8/2/2005 7:18:25 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

I am fairly certain that you are looking for the Dominant perspective on this...but I will throw out the submissive perspective, or at least my submissive perspective.

I prefer commands to be given in the form of a question, for the very reasons you have stated...it makes me make a choice and reaffirm my submission with every task. I have had it phrased in such a way that takes that even one step farther...."Would you LIKE to go out to the car and get my cell phone for me?" This makes me break it down farther into...well no I really don't like having to drop what I am doing to go to the car....but yes, I really like doing things that please you because you are the one I have chosen to please.

I, of course will answer to commands that are just stated without choice, but if I had a preference, I would like them better just as you have described.


I was actually looking for submissive perspectives, and yours is much appreciated.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Leonidas

I prefer to be direct and unambiguous with a slave. If I command something, I will phrase it as a command, to which I expect an acknowledgement (yes, Master). If I want to give her a choice, I do.


Your opinion is greatly appreciated as well. I suppose I don't have a strong command instinct with her. I am very, very Alpha male, and have a brutally viscious tongue at times, and coupling that with a sensitive submissive, I'm not sure how well that would work to uplift her and make her the submissive that I want her to be for me. If I commanded her firmly all the time, just in our experience, I would be exhausted and unrewarded, and she would be confused as hell as to whether she was pleasing me or not.

On the flip side though, If she is not remembering her place, or inappropriately asserting herself, I will and do deliver commands without question. When I have to do that, that is her signal that she is out of line and she needs to correct herself accordingly. Sensing the disapproval in my voice and seeing it on my face is a very stern punishment for her.



Leonidas -> RE: Choice as a method of control (8/2/2005 7:31:44 AM)

quote:

I'm not sure how well that would work to uplift her and make her the submissive that I want her to be for me. If I commanded her firmly all the time, just in our experience, I would be exhausted and unrewarded, and she would be confused as hell as to whether she was pleasing me or not.


What's wrong with "well done" or "I am pleased" or simply "good girl" for that purpose (assuming that the task was in fact done well). Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that there's anything wrong with the way that you're doing it. I'm just pointing out alternatives. I came into this life in a "high protocol" subculture, which probably accounts for the difference in style. For example, if the task in question is completed somewhere other than at my feet, my girl is also required to return to my feet and tell me "I have done as you commanded, Master". More protocol than most expect, no doubt. It's probably more a difference in style than in substance.




EmeraldSlave2 -> RE: Choice as a method of control (8/2/2005 7:41:09 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: anopheles
The question is, since I am still rather new to this, has anyone used this method before? If so, how well did it work for you? Does it work well over the long term? Any thoughts and opinions greatly appreciated.

Well, whether the dominant GIVEs the sub a moment to reject or accept the order, the sub still CAN accept or reject the order.

However, if the Owner gave me a direct order and then just paused and looked at me for a moment, I'd give him a funny look and ask if there was something else.

The accepting of obedience comes when you accept the terms of the relationship. If the terms of your relationship states that the sub can still decide on their own for each order given without negative consequences, that's fine. In my relationships though, I'm expected to obey and I accepted that when I became owned. To have to choose to obey each time just seems gratuitous.

As far as keeping control within me, well of course I have that. I simply don't have authority to decide how to use that control.



EmeraldSlave2 -> RE: Choice as a method of control (8/2/2005 7:45:31 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: anopheles
Alpha male, and have a brutally viscious tongue at times, and coupling that with a sensitive submissive, I'm not sure how well that would work to uplift her and make her the submissive that I want her to be for me. If I commanded her firmly all the time, just in our experience, I would be exhausted and unrewarded, and she would be confused as hell as to whether she was pleasing me or not.


I'm having this problem with a VA beau of mine. I'm putting ALL focus of our relationship right now on training him to not break down at the mere mention of criticism or correction, and to trust my judgement rather than falling to pieces any time one of his insecurities pop up.

Whew, it's a long issue, but well worth the long term effects.

I think you should stop pandering to her sensitivities QUITE so much. Simply saying "Slave, please get my phone from the car" still implies an absolute command, but said politely. When the order is done, you can smile and say good girl, giving a clear positive affirmation. She needs to learn the realities of the situation she accepted. While it's great that you want to help her through it, changing your own style and making things more complicated won't work in the end.



tinkJH -> RE: Choice as a method of control (8/2/2005 8:28:11 AM)

Most of all commands in Master's house are askes. Tho there are sometimes when it is just a command. Once thing Master is big on - Please, and Thank you.. Basic manners. Especially with children in the house. "Tink, get me some paper for the printer, please." or "Tink, grab me another soda, please." There are several times I've had to slip on a robe and run out to the truck for something for him. All of it followed by a Thank You, or of some other type of praise if the kids are asleep. Which I respond to with "Of course" and a kiss. Or a "Yes Master" if the kids are asleep.

Usually however, if I am naked or in the shower - He will just go and do it himself.

The times when commands are just commands - are usually after the kids are in bed - or are simple things. "Come here", "I need you to get ___ for me."

However, command or asking - I can say no if I want to. Sometimes I do. He will ask or command, I will grin, say no, and giggle. He'll give me a look, sometimes go "What was that?" and off I will scamper quickly, and usually gettings a little swat once I do what was needed. Its just in play, I wouldnt disobey him on purpose or intentionally. I have long since learned that lesson.

As for a Praise, that is always something I felt like I had to earn - not something that should be freely given. However, that is me. Praise can be as easy as a "Good" or even "Thank you" to me is praise. A pet to the head, a light caress, even a smile - just tells me that I am pleasing him. Which.. is enough to me.



HalloweenWhite -> RE: Choice as a method of control (8/2/2005 9:19:17 AM)




.................."And then pup passes out..". -S-. Poor pup. [:(]



HalloweenWhite.



HalloweenWhite -> RE: Choice as a method of control (8/2/2005 9:27:29 AM)



This is a really interesting question, Ive often wondered how a Domme/Dom interact with their subs/slaves in this specific context-to ask or order.

This topic will run and run Ill bet.There must be soooo many ways to make a request/order sound like something other than what it is and yet still retain the true meaning.


HalloweenWhite.



Fidelity -> RE: Choice as a method of control (8/2/2005 10:29:39 AM)

The best service comes from a desire to serve.

Not from the threat of consequences in not serving. If I have done my job properly,requests are usually seen as opportunities to serve-rather than orders.



Lordandmaster -> RE: Choice as a method of control (8/2/2005 10:33:26 AM)

I don't do this and frankly find it a little manipulative.

I don't like false questions, at least not between adults--in other words, questions to which the speaker already knows the answer, or questions that express something else in a phoney question form. They're a great way not to communicate, and can be used in passive-aggressive and otherwise deceptive ways.

I suppose you could say that "Will you go get my cell phone from the car?" is a true question, because, not possessing a crystal ball, you can't say you really know the answer to the question. But I don't think that's a legitimate response, since you certainly expect her to do your bidding. You've admitted that you say it INSTEAD of just ordering her to do it, so what you're really doing is ordering her to do it.

So just order her to do it.

Lam

quote:

ORIGINAL: anopheles

If I want my sub to go out to the car and get my cell phone that I forgot, as opposed to saying, "Go get my cell phone from the car," I say, "Will you go get your cell phone from the car?"



pup -> RE: Choice as a method of control (8/2/2005 10:35:03 AM)

Like theyve been telling us for years..

JUST SAY NO! ^_^;; [8|]



MistressFire70 -> RE: Choice as a method of control (8/2/2005 1:41:42 PM)

I do this mainly because I'm a polite person, but also because I value my subs and slaves as PEOPLE. If I'm in a hurry or it is something I need NOW, I'll give a direct order. But, usually, I ask nicely. Those that serve me well appreciate it. Of course, like you, if they choose not to do it, I pause and reflect on that and their choice! ;-)

Fire



anopheles -> RE: Choice as a method of control (8/2/2005 3:42:13 PM)

Thank you all, i've gotten some really thoughtful and insightful responses from everyone, and I do appreciate you taking the time to share your view points. I suppose I should clarify some of my viewpoints. Though in the interest of keeping the discussion going :)


My relationship with my luvdragon is a very tender and special one, because she is the mother of my children, my wife, and my loving and faithful emotional and spiritual supporter for basically my entire adult life. We have only been Dominant and submissive for a short time. We're very intertwined, and as her Dominant, she doesn't need that type of training and conditioning from me, and I'm not satisfied with guiding her that way. All she craves is direction and guidance from me, this was stated before we began on this journey. I am her Dominant because I am uniquely qualified to provide this for her, and she believes in me. I fully respect Dominants that require more strict protocols of their submissives, and I also respect submissives that need and crave it from their Dominants. We should all be in this to get what we need, and find the person/people that consent to giving or providing it for us. If luvdragon needs it from me some day, then I will give it to her, because she does a damn good job of giving me whatever I want ;)


Hey me thinks I started rambling with my post.....



subcheryl -> RE: Choice as a method of control (8/2/2005 4:22:20 PM)

My question is this, is it neccessary or true to beleive that if a submissive or a slave chooses to answer "no" to a request,"will you go and get my cell phone", that she has choosen not to be submissive, and is then questioned in her or his submissiveness? In my way of thinking that was a choice to either do it or not, and for some reason if she choose not to do it , does that mean her submission isn't as true of her as one that would do it? If given a choice that gives her the right to choose to do it or not. Also if she choose not to do it would you get upset and punish her? Would that be right since you gave her the choice in the way you asked. There are ways of getting things done and be in control without being overbearing and a brute. "please, go get the cellphone out of the car, I forgot it." "get me a coke, thankyou." not rudely but still with some authority. But than I am a submissive/littlegirl so perhaps I see it differently. just my opinion



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