RE: Fallacies of "Topping from the Bottom" (Full Version)

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Fidelity -> RE: Fallacies of "Topping from the Bottom" (8/2/2005 10:34:07 AM)

I don't really mind people acting weakly.

You are correct,it is thier choice.



darkinshadows -> RE: Fallacies of "Topping from the Bottom" (8/2/2005 10:35:04 AM)

Couldnt agree more sanita - its very often another sub/slave that says such. Possibly this is because the outside view sees a submissive who is controlled and under great leadership as strong. Many confuse strength with power. I also find it is usually someone who wants the power yet who cannot get the power, because it isn't offered, who tend to cry 'topping from below'...

Peace and Love



Fidelity -> RE: Fallacies of "Topping from the Bottom" (8/2/2005 10:37:50 AM)

quote:

but seriously, if it is not what the Dom/me wants, and they can't get that through to their sub, they will hopefully move on. if the sub/slave is unhappy with the level of control, or lack of it, and communication doesn't help- hopefully, they will move on. there is always someone who wants it just they same way you do.


Exactly sanita,it's more of a mismatch,is it not?

quote:

you know, while i have not counted instances, my perspective is that i see subs/slaves pointing the finger at other subs more often than i see Dom/mes suggesting that someone is topping from the bottom. it seems to be a mini-flame of choice for some people.


You noticed that too? I wonder just WHY that is?

Especially when they are NOT involved in the relationships of others?

Hmmmmmmmmmmmm[:D]



Lordandmaster -> RE: Fallacies of "Topping from the Bottom" (8/2/2005 10:40:19 AM)

I agree (although I don't think it has to do with "spine"). But that doesn't mean it's particularly enjoyable for a dom to deal with. Yes, I can put an end to topping from the bottom if it annoys me--but, you know, it's usually easier just to give the person the boot and find someone new. Subs who try to manipulate their dom usually have other kinds of character defects too.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Fidelity

A person who ALLOWS this has no spine. If nothing else works,there is always the option of dismissal.




Fidelity -> RE: Fallacies of "Topping from the Bottom" (8/2/2005 10:42:16 AM)

quote:

any confuse strength with power. I also find it is usually someone who wants the power yet who cannot get the power, because it isn't offered, who tend to cry 'topping from below'...


Then we are in total agreement when I speak of "weak Dominants" angel.

Is it really so confusing to realize that what actually happens in so many instances is more about bitter Tops who never realize that power and control must be EARNED?

THIS was the entire point of this thread. Why DO these sorts always cry "topping from the bottom!" when they are questioned,or don't get what they want?

Never having EARNED the perogative?



Fidelity -> RE: Fallacies of "Topping from the Bottom" (8/2/2005 10:46:08 AM)

Nods........."character defects" is a good way to put it.

I've dealt with my share-and I still have trust issues over it. But I am also more patient now,than I was in my younger days.

But my focus has shifted-I do realize perogatives carry equal responsibility. And I am not afraid to end something that's going no where in any case.



Veav -> RE: Fallacies of "Topping from the Bottom" (8/2/2005 11:12:27 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Fidelity
Why is your "control" so important to you As Dominants, that your subs cannot make simple requests of you,and not be seen in this light?
...
THIS was the entire point of this thread. Why DO these sorts always cry "topping from the bottom!" when they are questioned,or don't get what they want? Never having EARNED the perogative?
...
I don't really mind people acting weakly. You are correct,it is thier choice.


This is getting a little confusing for me now. Is it that some doms are too weak to enforce control over their subs and resort to this as an excuse? Or that some doms haven't earned the right from their subs to enforce that control? Or that some doms are too controlling and domineering - that was interesting to type - and cry wolf at the first glimpse of resistance because they feel a sub should submit wholly and without consideration for self?

I'm trying to understand here, and it sounds like you feel these doms have improper expectations... do you have any examples you could give?



darkinshadows -> RE: Fallacies of "Topping from the Bottom" (8/2/2005 11:47:07 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Fidelity

quote:

any confuse strength with power. I also find it is usually someone who wants the power yet who cannot get the power, because it isn't offered, who tend to cry 'topping from below'...


Then we are in total agreement when I speak of "weak Dominants" angel.

Is it really so confusing to realize that what actually happens in so many instances is more about bitter Tops who never realize that power and control must be EARNED?

THIS was the entire point of this thread. Why DO these sorts always cry "topping from the bottom!" when they are questioned,or don't get what they want?

Never having EARNED the perogative?


I do not believe we are in agreement persay - because I don't view that as a weak dominant, just someone who doesn't understand the sub/slave they are accusing such of. Doesn't make them weak or any less of a dominant, just means they either don't comprehend the bottom or comprehend their own dominance - as yet.

I dont believe that that power and control needs to be earnt either. In some cases, it just occurs. I am strong in my belief that nothing has to be earned or expected. Its when people believe in earning or expectation that is unwarrented that things like 'topping from below' occurs.

In answer to your question - Unrealistic idealology.

Peace and Love



Fidelity -> RE: Fallacies of "Topping from the Bottom" (8/2/2005 1:15:23 PM)

This has always been a confusing topic,which is why it is so often rehashed.

Let me put it this way. Trust and respect ARE earned, by deed and action-not just words. Whether certain people wish to admit this or not is moot. That's the way it happens.

I'll give a for instance from the Dominant side. I advertise for a "service sub". I make it quite clear what this means to me-one who enjoys being of service, in both domestic and sexual situations. I contact, or am contacted by a sub who claims to fill the bill. But I quickly notice on getting to know her more intimately-that she refuses to do chores I assign. Instead,she wheedles me constantly for sex scenes-playing passive aggressive games until I am about ready to throttle her.

This is a really GOOD example of topping from the bottom. It's all about HER and there is no balance that also serves MY needs being seen to. This is not to say that I am not WILLING to pleasure someone close to me. But if I make a compact,I expect it to be honored.

Were I the "weak" sort of Dominant,I might put up with this-just to keep having the sex part. But fuming inside at the frustration of feeling used-and not in good ways. This is NOT healthy,it's a bit like swallowing drano. So I would communicate this to the "bottom" and make it quite clear that the initial deal needs to be honored-or it's over. In actuality this is much more honest for both parties involved. I really don't expect people to change their core ways of being.

So if we are not a match-better to just end it gracefully, and move on. But would I really call it topping form the bottom?

No,I would simply refer to it as "incompatibility."

Now here is one from the sub side. She gets involved with a man who really is into control. He keeps her on such a short leash she can barely breathe. His responses to simple requests for answers is so virulent that she becomes afraid to even ask.

This man is horribly insecure,and his need to control arises from FEAR of not having it. Any slight disagreement is labeled "topping from the bottom" and is punished harshly. Soon she feels her self respect begin to erode under his influence. And is left with no choice but to run.

And of course,her being smothered and totally disrespected is HER fault in the eyes of the Dominant. After all, should she not have been STRONG enough to be able to take it? Hardly-when the slightest sign of it was slapped down with an iron fist.



darkinshadows -> RE: Fallacies of "Topping from the Bottom" (8/2/2005 1:33:09 PM)

quote:

Let me put it this way. Trust and respect ARE earned, by deed and action-not just words. Whether certain people wish to admit this or not is moot. That's the way it happens.


In your opinion - but not in everyones. Do I feel I need to earn respect? No. Do I pay respect by being polite - yes. Even if someone is rude and obnoxious, does not mean I have to disrespect the person, because they havent earnt respect. Earning respect implies some sort of compliance. 'If you do this, it earns my respect' - or - 'To gain respect, I must perform like this' - Not everyone is like you. It might be moot to you, but it isn't for everyone. Not everyone has the same ethics, codes, spirituality or personality. All these things must be taken into consideration before making such a wide open claim.
quote:

Were I the "weak" sort of Dominant,I might put up with this-just to keep having the sex part.


Again, weak maybe in your eyes. But it is possible that this dominant just doesn't know himself yet - doesnt make him weak - just not understanding of what makes him totally tick. Everyone learns from somewhere at sometime. Doesnt mean that ALL dominants like that are weak.

quote:

Now here is one from the sub side. She gets involved with a man who really is into control. He keeps her on such a short leash she can barely breathe. His responses to simple requests for answers is so virulent that she becomes afraid to even ask.

This man is horribly insecure,and his need to control arises from FEAR of not having it. Any slight disagreement is labeled "topping from the bottom" and is punished harshly. Soon she feels her self respect begin to eroding under his influence. And is left with no choice but to run.

And of course,her being smothered and totally disrespected is HER fault in the eyes of the Dominant. After all, should she not have been STRONG enough to be able to take it? Hardly-when the slightest sign of it was slapped down with an iron fist.


So this makes the submissive weak? Or do you view her as just being used? If you believe the domiannt is weak in the previous scenario, surely you must view the same od the sub in this. Of course, that would be an unwise thought - just like assuming a dominant must be weak in the previous.

One rule for one, and one for another? Are not people, people - no matter what their preference?

Weakness is attacked by fools
Admired by the wise
And practised by the professional.
(Dali Lama)

Peace and Love



Fidelity -> RE: Fallacies of "Topping from the Bottom" (8/2/2005 1:38:24 PM)

Rather than get into an ongoing semantic debate with you over terms angel,I will just say this.

"You get exactly what you put up with. Learn from it when it either works,or does not."

"Whining about it does no good whatsoever-even the most professional of victims are soon outed as simply refusing to learn from THEIR mistakes."



darkinshadows -> RE: Fallacies of "Topping from the Bottom" (8/2/2005 1:40:55 PM)

There are no such things as mistakes - only lessons to be learnt.
[;)]

Peace and Much Love



MstrHellsFury -> RE: Fallacies of "Topping from the Bottom" (8/2/2005 1:53:14 PM)

dark~angel...I've been following this thread...watching each response...although there's been no flaming here...I must say...job well done...you've expressed something I've been saying it seems like forever...each and every relationship is different...the dynamics within each are different...even if you as a dominant have had a bilzillion submissives..each and every one has been different...to those ends...treatment of each is on the level of that person...one will only tolorate what they want to..be they D/s...if we don't have needs met..or don't get needs addressed...we can ..and in most cases..end that relationship..then we search for the one that fits what we seek...to this I say there's no right or wrong..strong or weak..just a matter of degrees...


Fury



stef -> RE: Fallacies of "Topping from the Bottom" (8/2/2005 3:08:47 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Fidelity

How can one "manipulate a Dominant" into doing something they don't want to?

Because they have buttons that can be pushed just like everyone else does. It's all a part of being human and it has absolutely nothing to do with bring a top or bottom, dom or sub.

~stef



anopheles -> RE: Fallacies of "Topping from the Bottom" (8/2/2005 4:13:12 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MstrHellsFury

dark~angel...I've been following this thread...watching each response...although there's been no flaming here...I must say...job well done...you've expressed something I've been saying it seems like forever...each and every relationship is different...the dynamics within each are different...even if you as a dominant have had a bilzillion submissives..each and every one has been different...to those ends...treatment of each is on the level of that person...one will only tolorate what they want to..be they D/s...if we don't have needs met..or don't get needs addressed...we can ..and in most cases..end that relationship..then we search for the one that fits what we seek...to this I say there's no right or wrong..strong or weak..just a matter of degrees...


Fury


I agree here. The dynamics of a particular D/s relationship are only known to those that are party to it. In my particular relationship, to many it would appear that she makes too many suggestions, asks to many questions, makes too many requests. But that is not the relationship that we have. She is my helper, and she doesn't question myself for herself, she makes requests to better Us. On the flip side though, if a Dominant has stated that he or she demands strict obedience without question to whatever that request may be, and you as a submissive agree to those terms, then you have made your choice, and you should stand by that.



GentleLady -> RE: Fallacies of "Topping from the Bottom" (8/3/2005 7:15:33 AM)

quote:

For me topping from the bottom (except in specific teaching circumstances) is when a bottom/sub tries to subvert the dominant into doing something the bottom/sub wants to do, despite whatever the dominant might want, even possibly when knowing it's NOT what the dominant wants.

That is what topping from the bottom means to Me also EmeraldSlave. And the few times it has happened to Me I call them on it and refuse. If they persist in this behaviour over time then they are told that I am no longer interested in dealing with them. That way they can find someone more suitable for their personal needs. I prefer spirited submissives with their own opinions but this is a whole other kettle of fish.

Gentle Lady



imtempting -> RE: Fallacies of "Topping from the Bottom" (8/3/2005 7:39:07 AM)

There was a certain way of me saying "please" and a smile and way id have my eyes ( the puppy dog look ) that would help me get what I wanted. My dominant knew it and I was told not too do it as I would get punished. Although at times I would still do it and ofcourse get in trouble later but is that called topping from the bottom or disobeying?



fourpeas -> RE: Fallacies of "Topping from the Bottom" (8/3/2005 9:28:17 AM)

Hmmm...

Fidelity, I can relate to where you're coming from because you sound a lot like my Dom. I am a service oriented sub and much of my time spent in service *requires* me to be bold, to be active, to be pro-active, and to do quite a lot of my own volition, following certain prime directives (Don't harm yourself, don't overextend yourself financially, etc.)

He and I haven't had the "topping from the bottom" conversation, but he has talked to me about how he finds bratty behavior annoying. And I consider manipulation in a passive-aggressive way to be BRATTY. Not just in BDSM but in the real world. Passive-aggressiveness is one of my least favorite things... And that's what "topping from the bottom" boils down to.

I am ordered to be clear and communicative with him at all times. I am working on that, slowly but surely. I just had a sudden passing in my family and I've found that really hard to talk about with him. But we're moving forward.

I am encouraged to make requests and sometimes I have to change my wording about in a huge way for it to please him, but that is how I handle not being passive-aggressive. For instance, lately he has been really busy and it has been making me feel not very sub-like. (Grr) But guess what? That's life and it happens. So I told him about a book he had made me and how much that meant to me, and I put in a request for a new book. I asked for more guidance. So... I think that's a good "win-win" situation where no one is being manipulative and no one gets offended or hurt.


I also think that sometimes the "topping from the bottom" thing is used in place of saying that a particular sub and a particular dom just aren't compatible. In that case, we should call a spade a spade and go from there.



OscarHargraves -> RE: Fallacies of "Topping from the Bottom" (8/11/2005 9:17:20 AM)

I have to agree with Fourpeas. I'm new here and I've been reading thru this thread. I'm amazed at the different ways people see the same things. I always encourage my Sub to make suggestions as long as it's done in a respectful way and at the proper time. Sometimes I follow them. Sometimes I don't. It's my choice. My Sub is not a service Sub and understands that her place is to be used for sexual pleasure, but I also understand that sometimes I need to go just a little bit further and be sure she receives some pleasure also. Just because I allow her to do something that brings her pleasure doesn't mean I'm weak or she is 'topping from the bottom'. It means that I ALLOW her to do this for MY pleasure (and hers) out of respect for her submissiveness or as a reward for good behavior.



ChereeAmoor -> RE: Fallacies of "Topping from the Bottom" (8/11/2005 9:30:28 AM)

Both of my Masters would agree with OscarHargraves - I am always permitted to ask. I don't always GET what I asked for, but that is the nature of life itself, never mind our playing! Many times we have talked before hand about what we each would like, and they always get what they want. I get the pleasure of serving.

Once when I was talking to someone I mentioned being permitted to ask for different things, begging prettily being one of my skills that pleases them, and was immediately accused of topping from the bottom. My response to the accusation was a shrug. What do I care what someone else thinks? as long as my Masters are happy, so am I.



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