RE: Fallacies of "Topping from the Bottom"

RE: Fallacies of "Topping from the Bottom" (Full Version)

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bmcelhinney -> RE: Fallacies of "Topping from the Bottom" (8/11/2005 1:05:46 PM)
quote: Yes, I am Gordon Freeman. Accept this, and move on with your life. This is completely unrelated, but I'm guessing about 4 people on this site will get your sig... I happen do be one of them[:)]. Oh... and you DO look like him... got a pic with a crowbar, just to make sure ?

Veav -> RE: Fallacies of "Topping from the Bottom" (8/11/2005 4:21:54 PM)
Sadly, the red-and-silver seems to be out of vogue - all I run across are matte black crowbars these days. I know a guy, though, so eventually I hope to get some proper pics. One of these days I'll track down a Stormtrooper cosplayer and get him to do me up an HEV suit... rubs hands together with a sinister leer And, yes, some people get it, others don't. It's a good icebreaker either way. }:D

LadyKim -> RE: Fallacies of "Topping from the Bottom" (8/24/2005 10:39:43 AM)
Communication in any form is essential for a strong relationship. When a sub tops from below he/she is giving his/her desires or objections a voice. What the dominant does with this information is purely to Her/His discretion. As I stated previously, I enjoy a sub that will occassionally try to flip the role on me by topping from the bottom. There are times they can be down right cunning in their approach which provides for a good chuckle when I'm thinking about it later. If their 'idea' is not counterproductive to whatever goal I am seeking to achieve, I will grant it most of the time without them knowing I picked up on what just happenes. (I can honestly say, there have been a few times over the years that I didn't pick it up until reflection later.) This can make for a very interesting........ catalyst for a later time. Reminding the sub of whatever the topic was, and reminding them of their role. There have been times the subs idea was a good one that enhanced things all the way around. I do not view 'listening' to a sub as a weakness because I'm utlizing their mind also. I believe the true weakness is when a dominant believes just because they claim the title they are omnicient. For me this is a lifestyle and not just a game. As the dominant, I do reserve the right to CHOOSE what will happen; however, my choosing to do something the submissive requests does not make me less dominant. We do not live in the Byzantine Empire or the Pre-Civil War South. Ownership and slavery today are voluntary; thereby, allowing both the dominant and submissive to choose who they wish to control or be controlled by. It just makes sense to me to keep the submissives needs, desires, wants, and best interests in mind. There are times I may WANT something that is contrary to what my submissive NEEDS. Even though I am the dominant one, his need trumps my WANT anytime...... that goes part and parcel with being the one responsible for the submissive.

NakedOnMyChain -> RE: Fallacies of "Topping from the Bottom" (8/24/2005 11:20:12 AM)
I really don't view topping from the bottom intimating weakness on the dom/me's part. Maybe that's just me.

tedibare -> RE: Fallacies of "Topping from the Bottom" (8/24/2005 7:53:23 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sanita but seriously, if it is not what the Dom/me wants, and they can't get that through to their sub, they will hopefully move on. if the sub/slave is unhappy with the level of control, or lack of it, and communication doesn't help- hopefully, they will move on. there is always someone who wants it just they same way you do. Veav, that scenario was hilarious, btw! i know im new around here but just a bit of a different perspective... i have been known to "top from the bottom" and honestly i dont do it on purpose... generally when i find myself doing so, its because im not getting those things i need to feel fulfilled and i may not even realize i need it, sometimes its cause i dont know how to ask for it... i have found for me, that a Dom who will stop and try to find out what it is im asking for, and then to help me to understand that is much much better than one who will just give up... my two cents, YMMV tedi

tedibare -> RE: Fallacies of "Topping from the Bottom" (8/24/2005 8:21:05 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster I agree (although I don't think it has to do with "spine"). But that doesn't mean it's particularly enjoyable for a dom to deal with. Yes, I can put an end to topping from the bottom if it annoys me--but, you know, it's usually easier just to give the person the boot and find someone new. Subs who try to manipulate their dom usually have other kinds of character defects too. everyone, and i mean EVERYONE has character defects... children who push their parents are usually looking for their parents to take more control... that is often the case with subs/slaves who are pushy... other times theyre just finding the boundries tedi

Lordandmaster -> RE: Fallacies of "Topping from the Bottom" (8/24/2005 9:31:51 PM)
It's not fair to children to compare them to adults. I don't believe subs need to act like two-year-olds just because they are submissive. Yes, everyone has character defects, but some people's character defects are more serious than others'.

tedibare -> RE: Fallacies of "Topping from the Bottom" (8/24/2005 9:43:51 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster It's not fair to children to compare them to adults. I don't believe subs need to act like two-year-olds just because they are submissive. Yes, everyone has character defects, but some people's character defects are more serious than others'. true but having the character defect of not always knowing how to communicate properly in interpersonal settings should not always be cause for dismissal... if noone is willing to help the sub/slave how will they ever get any better? some of us do truely want to get better, we just dont always know how... tedi

Lordandmaster -> RE: Fallacies of "Topping from the Bottom" (8/24/2005 9:46:56 PM)
Well, yes, I agree with that. A sub who TRULY wants to get better deserves more than one chance.

tedibare -> RE: Fallacies of "Topping from the Bottom" (8/24/2005 9:53:30 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster Well, yes, I agree with that. A sub who TRULY wants to get better deserves more than one chance. ahhh good then it was my own perceptions that made me think you were saying that a sub who behaved that way is to be dumped... i do so hate it when my ears(so to speak) play tricks on me... lol part of the reason i talk with people alot.. tedi

hardbodysub -> RE: Fallacies of "Topping from the Bottom" (8/24/2005 10:42:41 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: dark~angel quote: ORIGINAL: Fidelity Tink? How can one "manipulate a Dominant" into doing something they don't want to? Any more than a Dom can do the same with a sub who doesn't want to? Does it not by definition of the basic personality TRAITS,rule them out AS Dominants, if they are weak and foolish enough to allow this to happen? Who says that they are any less dominant than you, just because you view it as weak or foolish? Your speaking as though you make the rules. You do not. What and who is dominant to you, may not be to another and visa versa - makes them no less a dominant to someone though. Peace and Love Fidelity's just stating an opinion and posing a question of logic, not making rules. If you disagree, feel free to voice your opinion. It would be better to back it up with logic instead of preaching as though YOU make the rules.

OwnedByHim -> RE: Fallacies of "Topping from the Bottom" (8/24/2005 10:55:27 PM)
quote: true but having the character defect of not always knowing how to communicate properly in interpersonal settings should not always be cause for dismissal... if noone is willing to help the sub/slave how will they ever get any better? some of us do truely want to get better, we just dont always know how...tedi This one was accused of attempting to top from the bottom. Was one? Yes, though that was not the intention. What were this one's intentions? Well, one was new to the lifestyle, newly Owned, and wanted to see what would happen with poor behavior - it was important to this one to know that her Dominant could and would control her. Does one do this any more? No. one has learned a lot and grown in her slavery, and does not feel the need to do these things anymore. one is still a 'slave in training', but would not disrespect Master in ways that she used to. one did not know at that time how disrespectful she was, thankfully with the help of Master and some good friends one now realizes the error of her ways. one approaches Him appropriately, has lost many of the bad habits that she acquired over the years as the spoiled rotten youngest child. and knows the world does not revolve around her. Also..............Master made it quite clear that He not only could, but would control this one - and some of those lessons were not very pleasant. Thank God this one was not booted out the door and was given a second, third, fourth chance - one will spend the rest of her life making sure that Master does not regret keeping her.

pandoravampire -> RE: Fallacies of "Topping from the Bottom" (8/25/2005 4:57:09 AM)
All this talk of dismissing a sub for TFTB? Arent any of you guys living with your significant other? Joint mortgage/offspring etc where booting a TFTB sub is NOT a option? For some of us, this is our lives, not a weekend hobby. Once you have found someone special, you will presumably cohabit. Once 'IN' its harder to 'Move on'. And rightfully so. Problems occur in relationships, and they pop up and bite your arse from time to time. Relationships that are what used to be called 'serious' dont get discarded, they get worked through. Mommy doesnt live with Daddy anymore sweetheart, coz she tops from the bottom. Get real guys! At some point, a lot of you will be IN relationships that are no longer disposable like some razor thats blunt for the new and shinier blade. Even if you think youve found the perfect ying to your yang, long term relationships arent always a bed of roses. Topping from the bottom is sometimes a conciously aware manipulation, but also sometimes unconciously done. It is however a behaviour that is a form of communication. Admitedly, it would be a lot more succinct to say honestly what it is you expect your behaviour to say for you. But sometimes you dont know yourself. And for me, i have agreed to submit. But sometimes, i dont want to just offer my submission, some nights, i want him to take it from me, to force it from me, i get high when he does this. I love being overwhelmed, my submission dragged from me kicking and screaming so to speak. Im sure you dont have to 'be there' to realise this is topping from the bottom. But for me and mine at the time, its fucking hot. It is not because a Dom/me is weak, that i get to enact this fantasy, its coz they can feed into it too, quite nicely. A win win. Manipulation/passive aggressive behaviour/transference call it what you will, each to their own eh? Please keep in mind, that my mind set is perhaps a little on the piss, as i started my journey from the top, identify as a switch, but now submitting in a D/s relationship. As a ex top, TFTB is a fault im possessed of. Pandoravampire

LadyAngelika -> RE: Fallacies of "Topping from the Bottom" (8/25/2005 8:22:02 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Fidelity I have to admit that I am very amused by so many instances of "topping form the bottom" being expressed here. Usually by Dominants. So I will simply open this discusion with a simple question. Why is your "control" so important to you As Dominants, that your subs cannot make simple requests of you,and not be seen in this light? I never saw any difficulty with this-I could always decline-or dismiss girls who became overly annoying. But perhaps my more laid back stance comes for the simple fact that I have my own power,and really see no need to take it from others. I prefer any EXCESS of it be given to me freely. And I have NO sense of insecurity in this,at ALL. My impression is that some of the people who identify with the label Dom or Domme are doing it out of insecurity and a need to control others in a desperate attempt to have a modicum of control in their lives. In their everyday lives, they have very little control over what happens to them and in their fantasies, they need to be in control. Just like many of the submissive men that I meet are absolutely totally in control of everything in their day to day lives to the point that they feel a need to completely give it all up with me. Don't they always remind you of Eric Cartman? [image]http://www.londonpostcard.co.uk/images/southpark/spmp3058.jpg[/image] Now getting back to the type of Dom/me that I was profiling, when this type of Dom/me feels their authority threatened in this arena where they have their only opportunity to be in control, they tend to get on the defensive and accuse others of topping from the bottom. Now there are people who are simply naturally dominant, who as you said have their own power and do not need to take it from others. They are not simply Dom/mes (the role) but dominant (the personality trait). That is how I've always seen it. - LA

Lordandmaster -> RE: Fallacies of "Topping from the Bottom" (8/25/2005 9:04:46 AM)
I think you're stating a false set of alternatives. I have a slave, and I don't believe she has EVER consciously tried to top from the bottom. We have had disagreements, problems, and so on, and now and then she does something I don't like, but I am not aware that she has ever tried to manipulate me. That is why she is my slave in the first place. quote: ORIGINAL: pandoravampire All this talk of dismissing a sub for TFTB? Arent any of you guys living with your significant other? Joint mortgage/offspring etc where booting a TFTB sub is NOT a option? For some of us, this is our lives, not a weekend hobby. Once you have found someone special, you will presumably cohabit. Once 'IN' its harder to 'Move on'. And rightfully so. Problems occur in relationships, and they pop up and bite your arse from time to time. Relationships that are what used to be called 'serious' dont get discarded, they get worked through. Mommy doesnt live with Daddy anymore sweetheart, coz she tops from the bottom. Get real guys! At some point, a lot of you will be IN relationships that are no longer disposable like some razor thats blunt for the new and shinier blade. Even if you think youve found the perfect ying to your yang, long term relationships arent always a bed of roses.

tedibare -> RE: Fallacies of "Topping from the Bottom" (8/25/2005 6:51:32 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: OwnedByHim This one was accused of attempting to top from the bottom. Was one? Yes, though that was not the intention. What were this one's intentions? Well, one was new to the lifestyle, newly Owned, and wanted to see what would happen with poor behavior - it was important to this one to know that her Dominant could and would control her. Does one do this any more? No. one has learned a lot and grown in her slavery, and does not feel the need to do these things anymore. one is still a 'slave in training', but would not disrespect Master in ways that she used to. one did not know at that time how disrespectful she was, thankfully with the help of Master and some good friends one now realizes the error of her ways. one approaches Him appropriately, has lost many of the bad habits that she acquired over the years as the spoiled rotten youngest child. and knows the world does not revolve around her. Also..............Master made it quite clear that He not only could, but would control this one - and some of those lessons were not very pleasant. Thank God this one was not booted out the door and was given a second, third, fourth chance - one will spend the rest of her life making sure that Master does not regret keeping her. it is so refreshing to see someone who HAS been helped by a patient determined Dom/me/Master/Mistress... so many ive seen here and other places seem to be of the opinion that the sub/slave should be ready made and perfect from the word go... people who expect perfection are often disappointed... we are all learning and continue to learn... gods forbid i should ever stop learning myself... tedi

AbstractSavant -> RE: Fallacies of "Topping from the Bottom" (9/3/2005 6:08:32 PM)
I think it all depends. I do a lot of topping from the bottom...if only because I have a few years of experience and my Master is still relatively a novice. But it doesn't have anything to do with the power exchange.

Temji -> RE: Fallacies of "Topping from the Bottom" (9/6/2005 9:53:21 PM)
greetings... ~likes angel... always has...~ *grin*... cain't nobuddy say what's right for anyone else in this lifestyle... nature of the beast says every relationship will be different... CAN offer advice to those who ask... that's about it... be well, Temji KnightStorm

LadyJC -> RE: Fallacies of "Topping from the Bottom" (9/7/2005 3:09:39 AM)
I just got out of a bad relationship as posted a few times on here. He was a submissive (supposedly) however he wouldn't listen to me half the time if I asked him to do something he'd bitch about it and whine. It got to the point I couldn't even bother. If I wanted to play it was literally a struggle...I couldn't bother to try and tie him down anymore, by the time I'd have him pinned and tied I'd be too exhausted to play. I tried to get him to realize this but to him the struggle was what was fun. Well that's his cup of tea not mine. He would constantly tell me I never took his feelings into consideration...like I would only play with things he liked if I felt he deserved those things...sort of a reward for good behaviour. But most of the time he'd bitch and complain about what he had to do and I got sick of it. He had a drinking problem, which is one of the main reasons why I left. He would get drunk and tell me how I'm not a good Dom, and how he's a grown man and he shouldn't be having people tell him what to do. I got up and left Now does this make me weak? I don't think so, I'm sure there are better Doms than me who couldn't have made him stopped drinking. You can only control someone if the want you to control them. He didn't want me to control his drinking, he couldn't respect me enough to stop, he had an addiction and needed stronger help than what I could have given him. Should I have given him another chance? Maybe to someone else but at the same time I had given him A LOT of chances. I would punish him for his bad behaviour and that didn't work, I did everything I could think of and even asked advice from others, nothing worked. Once again Does this make me weak? LadyJC

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