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MsScarlett and the xenophobic English........ - 10/28/2007 6:33:05 AM   
NorthernGent


Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline 		I look at my fellow Brits and feel ashamed of their bigotry, xenophobia, agression and overall behaviour.  When I travel abroad I blend in, I learn the local ways and languages, eat the local food, and avoid the Brits wherever possible.  The thought that they will go abroad to complain about the food, the weather, the Germans, the locals, the beer - it disgusts me.  En masse, at their lowest level, they're a bunch of petty, whining idiots with whom I would rather not associate.  At their best they're just about tolerable. 
 
Saw this from MsScarlett, and couldn't resist. 'A few minutes to kill, so here's a case for the defence:

This post is concerned with the English rather than the rest of the British Isles; I have no idea what goes on in Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland, so let's leave them out of it.....'last I heard, they were dwelling in caves and dancing 'round large pots of boiling water: let's leave them to it (for those not acquainted with the cryptic English sense of humour...it's a joke, a self-depreciating one at that).

By and large, I don't think we're xenophobic at all: we're simply indifferent to foreigners.

Our homes are our castles, that's where our interests lie. We've never had such a thing as a Fatherland, or a Motherland, or a Patrie, unlike our friends across the water. We simply have "home"; meaning the individual's home, meaning we're not that interested in nationalism which leads us to be indifferent to what is going on over the other side of the water. So, when we meet them abroad, we tend to amble along with our own way of doing things, it's not a case of showing disdain, it's a case of not wanting to get in someone's face; let them do their own thing, and we'll do ours type of attitude, and just because we're in a foreign country, do we have to pretend we're something we're not in order to blend in? As far as I'm aware, there's no such law, and I don't think this suggests xenophobia. 

For example, we'll take on board the ideas of other countries, and use them to suit our needs, sort of give them an English twist. We've always done that. I don't think it's a case that we think we know best, it's more a case that we like who we are: best or not. But, we're a very parochial people who reserve our piss taking for other Englishmen/women. In my view, most people couldn't care less about what is going in France or Germany or wherever, and that's not xenophobic, it's more the case that our homes are far more important than what is going on hundreds of miles away - that is where out interests lie, and that's where we expend our energy.

Contrary to your statement about English/German relations.....I have found the exact opposite. There is a mutual respect. I've found the Germans are very welcoming to the English. We share certain characteristics. It's hard not to like them, and there's just something there that's hard to put your finger on that instantly invites friendship between the English and the Germans. Of course, there are a few idiots here and there in England, but we all have them. I'm talking about the rule, not the exception. In my experience, the Germans warm to the English, and that wouldn't happen if they believed the rule is a xenophobic nation.

In fairness, you're not alone in your beliefs:

An Italian visiting England 1492: The English are great lovers of themselves, and of everything belonging to them; they think that there are no other men than themselves and no other world but England.
 
Emmanuel Van Meteren 1553: The English are bold, courageous, ardent and cruel in war, but very inconstant, rash, vainglorious, light and deceiving, and very suspicious, especially of foreigners, whom they despise
 
Duke of Wurttemburg 1592: The English are extremely proud and overbearing...they care little for foreigners but scoff and laugh at them.
 
Let's be honest about this, we like ourselves.......it's not that we're xenophobic, it's more the case that we're comfortable in our skin....so nationalism never takes off, and we can laugh at ourselves. If you don't love yourself, no one else will.

To rest my case, I always immerse myself in French culture when I cross the water.......I take a bag of croissants made in England and wash them down with a cup of tea. 'Can't say fairer than that!

Edited for spelling.

< Message edited by NorthernGent -- 10/28/2007 6:39:03 AM >

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RE: MsScarlett and the xenophobic English........ - 10/28/2007 6:51:05 AM   
LadyEllen


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From: Stourport-England
Status: offline 		You know? I'm going to agree with you - the English are not xenophobic, in that in order to be a xenophobe would require some awareness of the qualities of other nations - and to be honest, the vast majority here are too damned ignorant and dim witted to have such an awareness.

This is the ultimate problem for us - that we refuse to celebrate achievement, refuse to value application, refuse to recognise education, refuse to acknowledge that anyone should be better at anything than anyone else - all in the misguided notion that all are equal and must be legislated into being equal where required. The lowest common denominator becomes what is celebrated, valued, recognised and acknowledged, and anyone not conforming to that denominator is denounced as an elitist. Denounced, for wanting everyone to achieve, be valued, be recognised and acknowledged for the things at which they are supreme.

Luckily, this happens to fit in very well with those running the show - ignorant and dim witted people being far easier to control. The adverse effects are manifold of course, but then those running the show are well insulated from those. How fortunate, to engineer a society where everyone can be targetted with the same message whether its as a consumer, worker or voter - and a message at that which will be misunderstood as to its real intent because the people dare not show they understand for fear of being outted as an elitist, or else cannot show they understand because they lack the means of understanding. 1984, anyone?

E

< Message edited by LadyEllen -- 10/28/2007 6:54:01 AM >

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RE: MsScarlett and the xenophobic English........ - 10/28/2007 7:01:45 AM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

You know? I'm going to agree with you - the English are not xenophobic, in that in order to be a xenophobe would require some awareness of the qualities of other nations - and to be honest, the vast majority here are too damned ignorant and dim witted to have such an awareness.



A nation that has given the world so much is populated with "a vast majority........too damned ignorant and dim-witted"....'sounds unlikely.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

This is the ultimate problem for us - that we refuse to celebrate achievement, refuse to value application, refuse to recognise education, refuse to acknowledge that anyone should be better at anything than anyone else - all in the misguided notion that all are equal and must be legislated into being equal where required.



Equal access to opportunity Ellen, which I'm sure you appreciate.

Out of interest, how does this refusal to value application manifest itself?

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RE: MsScarlett and the xenophobic English........ - 10/28/2007 7:05:54 AM   
RealityLicks


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Status: offline 		Can't resist this one.

In contrast to NG, although I was born in England, I do not consider myself English, except for in the most abstract sense.

No. I am a Londoner - and that is a very different thing altogether. Now London is quite clearly the capital of the world. Far from indifference to foreigners, they are its lifeblood. You'll find people from the four corners of the globe here and usually we are curious about each other and keen to test drive each others' cultural motors.

I can eat every cuisine you can name within a mile of my house, the galleries and theatres are filled with the photographs, paintings, plays and various other works of artists the world over. But our curiosity is more than just transient, friendships and relations with all-comers happen, too. Worryingly, I've noticed among my friends that those with the overall least diverse social network tend to be new arrivals from the Shires. And pensioners.

For those who don't know, once you're fifty miles outside London its a bit like the barren wastes where the mutants live in science fiction films. The grim industrial North is a case in point, they even have problems attracting footballer's wives!

When abroad, there is nowadays a bit more likelihood of Brits joining the flow a little more but I can remember parts of Southern Spain which were like little outposts of Empire, with imported Yorkshire Tea, Bovril and no alternative but to feign ignorance of the language if another Brit approached you.

Happily, with the civilising influence of London reaching the outposts of Albion we tend to export more enlightened types ... I hope. The days when our football hooligans really terrorised people aren't lost from memory yet but we're getting there.

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RE: MsScarlett and the xenophobic English........ - 10/28/2007 7:28:20 AM   
meatcleaver


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Status: offline 		I've lived in Germany, France, Belgium and now I live in Holland. I've heard the Germans, Belgians and Dutch make all the same comnplaints about their compatriots that you make of the English. The French are excepted as they don't go abroad unless its to make money. As for British ex-pats in Spain, I think you will find there are more Germans there and more Dutch and Scandinavians per capita there than Brits.

I've lived in London for ten years and I can tell you that there are more enlightened and creative types in the north than all of the south east where people are largely pre-occupied with exploiting and ripping their fellow citizens off. Just look at all the great people, be it artists or engineers or inventors Britain has produced, most come from the sticks. I've seen more enlightment in Bavaria than in London.

You are just displaying normal London and home counties arrogance.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 10/28/2007 7:29:38 AM >

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RE: MsScarlett and the xenophobic English........ - 10/28/2007 7:32:38 AM   
Politesub53


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Status: offline 		i consider myself English, more so than British. i was also born, and for the most part lived, in London. I miss the joy of the street markets seeling different clothes and food from across the world. I miss the noise of different languages being spoken at the same time. I miss the smells, ok not the Battersea smell if anyone remember that ( from Prices candle factory )  I miss the sounds of different music blaring from each house.


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RE: MsScarlett and the xenophobic English........ - 10/28/2007 7:34:41 AM   
Politesub53


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Status: offline 		Meatcleaver whats arrogant about loving the place you were raised in ? Memories of childhood, schooling, grandparents. I dont see anything arrogant about it at all.

Edited to spell meatcleaver correctly.

< Message edited by Politesub53 -- 10/28/2007 7:35:50 AM >

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RE: MsScarlett and the xenophobic English........ - 10/28/2007 7:36:17 AM   
LadyEllen


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From: Stourport-England
Status: offline 		NG - I would agree that in our past, we certainly gave the world an awful lot. But things have changed - what we give the world today is a tourist spot for those coming here, and tourism blight for our lot going abroad.

My family came straight out of the industrial Midlands; every one of the older generation suffered the unfair system of education in place in the old Britain, and left at 14 to work in factories. Yet they aspired to learn, and I can say with some confidence that they did learn and though they never made it off the factory floors until Thatcher came along and their work was made redundant, one could have a reasonable debate with them where facts were important.

Contrast that to my generation, who received comprehensive education and access to the resources and information previously reserved only to those who passed an 11+. Its not good - no aspiration to learn anything, and in fact aspiration to demonstrate "street cool" by speaking without reference to grammar in order not to appear "uppity" - an offence which here can get one beaten to a pulp.

The problem with equal opportunity NG, is that obsessed as we are with class system regardless, we enforce access to equal opportunity only to what is perceived as being higher up the scale - trying to make every child an office worker / manager / professional, whilst totally and deliberately disregarding the fact that some people are far more apt and valuable in other roles - the so called "lower", working class professions like engineering, building, carpentry et al. The result is, we have millions unemployed who have been failed by a system which did not recognise their potential and did nothing to build on it, whilst we import Polish plumbers and electricians et al.

The refusal to value application is manifested all around us NG. Why work hard when one can get rich and famous on Big Brother, or win the lottery? Why work hard, when to do so demonstrates an attempt to be better than the rest - and thus risk a beating? Why work hard, when the entire system is pedicated on getting lucky? How many hard workers are celebrated here, not to say rewarded, compared to the number of celebrities, so called? The messages are clear - dont try, because its hopeless - something which pervades the whole nation - work gets you nowhere and we'll all be celebrities soon.

E

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RE: MsScarlett and the xenophobic English........ - 10/28/2007 7:42:37 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Meatcleaver whats arrogant about loving the place you were raised in ? Memories of childhood, schooling, grandparents. I dont see anything arrogant about it at all.

Edited to spell meatcleaver correctly.


To quote Realitylicks Happily, with the civilising influence of London reaching the outposts of Albion we tend to export more enlightened types ... I hope. The days when our football hooligans really terrorised people aren't lost from memory yet but we're getting there.
 
Her quote as far as I am concerned is total shite.

EDITED TO ADD I am struggling to think of all these enlightening types London exported. The last time I heard the enlightenment started in Edinburgh.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 10/28/2007 7:44:42 AM >

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RE: MsScarlett and the xenophobic English........ - 10/28/2007 7:53:06 AM   
RealityLicks


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Status: offline 		The quote isn't total shite. There was definitely a bit of piss in it for the taking, too.

Does sort of prove the point, sadly. lol

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RE: MsScarlett and the xenophobic English........ - 10/28/2007 7:59:23 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RealityLicks

The quote isn't total shite. There was definitely a bit of piss in it for the taking, too.

Does sort of prove the point, sadly. lol


No it doesn't prove a point. Pulling someone up on an idiotic statement doesn't prove a point, you running away from defending your position proves a point.

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RE: MsScarlett and the xenophobic English........ - 10/28/2007 8:05:15 AM   
TheMsScarlet


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From: London - Bristol - Surrey
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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver
Her quote as far as I am concerned is total shite.


So nice to see that you're offering us all an alternative pov by demonstrating the polite and enlightened attitudes available outside of London.  It's lovely to watch you research the subject, check back to the original context of the snipped quote made by NG, and then address the points logically and with reason.  No doubt you are celebrated everywhere for your ability to raise the tone of debates with your errudition. 


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RE: MsScarlett and the xenophobic English........ - 10/28/2007 8:24:25 AM   
seeksfemslave


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Status: offline 		I think the xenophobia that does exist in the UK basically stems from being an island where up until about say mid 1950 most people only met their own type. and only heard one language.

Dont forget there is also much  class antagonism in the UK.
Everybody knows the upper middle classes despise the lower orders but what the upper types I suspect dont know but due to their stranglehold on the "top" job market dont need to care about, is that the lower orders despise them
Due to this a striving for upward mobility has never been present in the working class areas of the UK.

I remember when I did my National Service I thought the officers were a bunch of pansies and I did my little bit to undermine their authority. Needless to say I lost lol

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RE: MsScarlett and the xenophobic English........ - 10/28/2007 8:32:04 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheMsScarlet

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver
Her quote as far as I am concerned is total shite.


So nice to see that you're offering us all an alternative pov by demonstrating the polite and enlightened attitudes available outside of London.  It's lovely to watch you research the subject, check back to the original context of the snipped quote made by NG, and then address the points logically and with reason.  No doubt you are celebrated everywhere for your ability to raise the tone of debates with your errudition. 



I'm still waiting for this source of enlightenment eminating from our great capital unless the enlightenment being referred to was civilizing the savages in the far flung regions of the world.

Calling realitylicks atatement shite was raising the level of debate because of her very low starting point.

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RE: MsScarlett and the xenophobic English........ - 10/28/2007 8:33:11 AM   
RealityLicks


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Status: offline 		I echo your sentiments, MsScarlet. To think Britons were once renowned for their sense of irony.

meatlever, learn a little self-government, there's no need to be insulting.

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RE: MsScarlett and the xenophobic English........ - 10/28/2007 8:33:25 AM   
Sephy


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Status: offline 		wow.......... do people here live in a different England to me?
They must do.... I have travelled extenstively for work and hve to say... England is one of the most enlightened, tolerant, temperant, giving, arrogant, loving, happy diverse (I could go on)places on this planet. People would do well to remember what we have instead of moaning about what we have not.

< Message edited by Sephy -- 10/28/2007 8:34:26 AM >

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RE: MsScarlett and the xenophobic English........ - 10/28/2007 8:33:35 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

I think the xenophobia that does exist in the UK basically stems from being an island where up until about say mid 1950 most people only met their own type. and only heard one language.



Elizabeth I complained about the number of swarthy people (blacks) in London. The number being around 20,000 at the time.

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RE: MsScarlett and the xenophobic English........ - 10/28/2007 8:35:28 AM   
NorthernGent


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Status: offline 		I enjoyed reading that Reality...'good to hear a view from our friends in the South as it's a while since I've been down there, my sister lived in Greenwich for around 8 years. 'Always enjoyed myself when I went down. No complaints.

Had to smile at the cultural motors comment........have you ever been abroad (anywhere in the world) and not heard a Londoner about 20 miles away distressed and screaming "what d'ya mean there's no facking chips?!"

quote:

ORIGINAL: RealityLicks

Can't resist this one.

In contrast to NG, although I was born in England, I do not consider myself English, except for in the most abstract sense.



I'm not too dissimilar. I'm a Durham lad first and foremost, a Northerner second, and an Englishman third. I suppose if there is a hallmark of Englishness, it's the desire to pride the community above the nation. 'Truth be told, I've been actively campaigning for a border just south of Manchester and stretching across to the East coast. I now live in Manchester which is a grand place..........a sort of Northern paradise......grim but gritty, wet on the face of it but sunny at it's core....a sort of substance over style place.

The amount of lads and lasses from down your way that came up here to university and bought the "Born in the South, Live in the North, Die in the North" t-shirts, was impressive.....all a matter for personal taste, I suppose.

quote:

ORIGINAL: RealityLicks

Now London is quite clearly the capital of the world.



Clearly, yes, are the streets still paved with gold down there?

quote:

ORIGINAL: RealityLicks

I can eat every cuisine you can name within a mile of my house, the galleries and theatres are filled with the photographs, paintings, plays and various other works of artists the world over. But our curiosity is more than just transient, friendships and relations with all-comers happen, too.



Fair enough. Sounds good to me.

quote:

ORIGINAL: RealityLicks

When abroad, there is nowadays a bit more likelihood of Brits joining the flow a little more but I can remember parts of Southern Spain which were like little outposts of Empire, with imported Yorkshire Tea, Bovril and no alternative but to feign ignorance of the language if another Brit approached you.



I tend to avoid Western Europe when I go abroad, so I've nothing to share on Spain...although I did go to Madrid once. Case in point: we've a few mates in Barcelona, and were deciding where to go for a week in a few weeks time, we discussed Barcelona (as they would have put us up and showed us around) for about 3 seconds, and decided on Vienna and Bratislava.....I like difference, so Eastern Europe, Asia, the Middle East suits me fine....I also tend to avoid English speaking countries.

Ok, I'll offer a quick summary of proceedings so far:

a) Well, would you believe it, we have 5 Englishmen/women on this thread who spend time in other countries without resorting to casual violence and alcoholism, and all seem to value the worth of other people/countries; the defence is gaining strength. 

b) I'm sensing a consensus that the peasant stock are the agitators in foreign countries and the Middle Class veterans of the board are sneering at them with their noses in the air, which, incidentally, mirrors the accusations thrown at the peasants.

On a positive note: if it all goes wrong, we will always have nectar points.

For God, King and Country,
NG.

Edited for grammar.

< Message edited by NorthernGent -- 10/28/2007 8:41:16 AM >

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RE: MsScarlett and the xenophobic English........ - 10/28/2007 8:36:28 AM   
RealityLicks


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Status: offline 		Times have moved on since then. Glad you have, too.

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RE: MsScarlett and the xenophobic English........ - 10/28/2007 8:43:42 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RealityLicks

Times have moved on since then. Glad you have, too.


So have I. I had enough of class snobbery when I lived in Britain which is why I chose to live abroad and bring my eldest daughter up in a more eqalitarian society where she wouldn't be penalized because of her accent or where she came from.

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