Follow up to my post yesterday

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Kondolinni -> Follow up to my post yesterday (10/30/2007 6:25:54 AM)
Well. My post was moved, as you all can see. I reviewed the rules for posting in General BDSM, and I am assuming it was moved because I spoke negatively about another person's predilictions. To the site administrators: my apologies. 62 responses. More than I expected. Over-all, a good discusssion. Not too many drive by's... no rants. Even the insults I garnered (not too many of those either) were delivered in what I thought was a very civil way. I didn't count or anything, but, of the serious responses, it seems to be almost evenly split between those who saw some level of what I saw in the quote, and those who did not. Of those who did not agree, the vast majority did so from the mind-set; "to each their own".... One little point of self-defense: I never was offended by ANY of the responses to my OP. Interested, enlightened, entertained, even educated a bit... but not offended. Honestly, I felt the discussion was pretty good for an un-structured online forum... I wonder if they will move this post.... Thanks to all who responded. My last thoughts on the original topic: There are things we all encounter in our lives that provoke feelings within us. Positive and negative. If such were not the case, we would all be vulcans. Humans feel their way through this world. Almost every initial reaction to any stimulus is emotional. It is then followed up by an intellectual response (at least, such is to be hoped for) but, humans "feel" before they "think", most of the time. That's all that I did in this case. My experiences, my intellect, and yes, my emotions, told me that what I quoted was evidence of someone who was potentially exposing herself to great hurt. The initial reaction was, I admit, strong enough to cause me to post without giving the matter a lot of consideration. Passion made me write the post, guys... passionate feelings of concern. However, I do not wish to come across as ratiolizing my thoughts and the post. I feel strongly that too many women have joined the BDSM community as submissives for reasons that are not based on healthy perspectives. I have met (both online and in real life) too many of them to discount this as just an aberation. In my (very humble) opinion, the potential for further possible hurt in this venue is too great for these women to engage in without first having resolved the issues which place them in an un-healthy mind-set, if for no other reason than to protect themselves, and to maximize their chances of actually finding what their heart desires, as well. Thanks to all who responded.

missturbation -> RE: Follow up to my post yesterday (10/30/2007 6:36:02 AM)
That's all that I did in this case. My experiences, my intellect, and yes, my emotions, told me that what I quoted was evidence of someone who was potentially exposing herself to great hurt. The initial reaction was, I admit, strong enough to cause me to post without giving the matter a lot of consideration. Passion made me write the post, guys... passionate feelings of concern. Very noble intent, i have to say. I feel strongly that too many women have joined the BDSM community as submissives for reasons that are not based on healthy perspectives. Of course. But there are also males out there who have done the same. There are also those who have only joined to abuse others, men / women. I don't think female subs are the only people here who have joined for not so healthy reasons. My experiences, my intellect, and yes, my emotions, told me that what I quoted was evidence of someone who was potentially exposing herself to great hurt Potentially yes. However when any of us put ourselves out there we are opening ourselves up to being hurt. This woman did not ask for your help or advice, she as far as we know is quite content with her lot.

Driver1961 -> RE: Follow up to my post yesterday (10/30/2007 6:37:49 AM)
He dips; I missed your thread but understand your explanation. Many threads have been written previously on (what appears) to be similar issues. Do a search on the top right. Many subs take offence on comments like; I feel strongly that too many women have joined the BDSM community as submissives for reasons that are not based on healthy perspectives. and your comment can easily relate to Dominants also. Unfortunately we can often see how someone is walking the wrong direction in life but not be open to listening to others for various reasons. Unfortunately that's life and One's belief that life is a 'school of hard knocks'. It's a perspective that is iron-clad in some peoples thoughts and not easily dismantled. The forums provide a means for this if the iron clad blinkers are not affixed. Warm regards Driver.

chellekitty -> RE: Follow up to my post yesterday (10/30/2007 6:38:11 AM)
they moved the post because it was not on the topic of General BDSM, as they saw it....this may or may not be moved....if it was seen as speaking negatively about another person so severely that it had to be moved, they would have removed the whole thread or moderated you, as you can still post, you are good....

slavegirljoy -> RE: Follow up to my post yesterday (10/30/2007 6:38:25 AM)
While i do respect your thoughts on this issue, i do not respect the way that you went about it. You could have just as easily stated your concerns, in general terms, and made your case, without copying and pasting a portion of a person's profile here to do it. That was my chief complaint in your OP of yesterday. Every one is entitled to voice their thoughts and opinions on here but, why must it be done at the expense of another's right to post whatever they want on their personal profile? It would have been different if she had posted on this board that she had "met Mr. Wonderful and that he was going to save her from all her troubles and they were going to ride off in the sunset and live happily ever after. What d'yall think 'bout that? Aint it grand?" Then, you and everyone else would have every right to tell her what you think of her rosey outlook. But, to go about it the way you did, without even giving her the opportunity to defend herself on here, was just plain wrong, in my eyes. You could have, at least, written to her cmail first, telling her of your concerns and asking her if she would mind having her profile used as an example for discussion on this forum. Discussion is good but, going behind someone's back and taking stabs at them for public humiliation and condemnation, without their knowledge, is cowardly and a cheap shot, in my mind. slave joy Owned property of Master David quote: ORIGINAL: Kondolinni I feel strongly that too many women have joined the BDSM community as submissives for reasons that are not based on healthy perspectives. I have met (both online and in real life) too many of them to discount this as just an aberation. In my (very humble) opinion, the potential for further possible hurt in this venue is too great for these women to engage in without first having resolved the issues which place them in an un-healthy mind-set, if for no other reasonh than to protect themselves, and to maximize their chances of actually finding what their heart desires, as well. Thanks to all who responded.

Rover -> RE: Follow up to my post yesterday (10/30/2007 6:49:12 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Kondolinni I feel strongly that too many women have joined the BDSM community as submissives for reasons that are not based on healthy perspectives. I have met (both online and in real life) too many of them to discount this as just an aberation. In my (very humble) opinion, the potential for further possible hurt in this venue is too great for these women to engage in without first having resolved the issues which place them in an un-healthy mind-set, if for no other reason than to protect themselves, and to maximize their chances of actually finding what their heart desires, as well. I didn't read the original post, and will not comment upon it as a result. But this passage has me wondering several things: 1. By what basis have you determined who (and how many) have joined the BDSM community for unhealthy reasons? 2. Are you degreed in the mental health field that we should give any weight to your opinion? 3. Why do you single out submissives? You don't see unhealthy reasons as the motivation for Dominants/Tops to join the community? 4. How is it that you are able to divine that someone is not actually following their true heart's desires? 5. Why should we not view this as just another in a long line of "sensitive Dominant protector for all those poor submissives unable to fend for themselves" posts? John

bigdaddybaba -> RE: Follow up to my post yesterday (10/30/2007 6:58:26 AM)
hi slave joy could you talk

bandit25 -> RE: Follow up to my post yesterday (10/30/2007 7:06:54 AM)
What he said.

Celeste43 -> RE: Follow up to my post yesterday (10/30/2007 7:09:25 AM)
Seconding that the mod must have believed it didn't quite fit into the forum since you were postulating about abuse and not discussion BDSM directly. I just thought you were arrogant as hell for reading a profile, and without any further knowledge of the writer, jumping to the conclusion that what she sought was impossible and that the only reason she sought it was because she was an unhealthy victim type. Profiles simply don't give you enough info to make that kind of judgment.

Kondolinni -> RE: Follow up to my post yesterday (10/30/2007 7:29:19 AM)
I didn't read the original post, and will not comment upon it as a result. But this passage has me wondering several things: 1. By what basis have you determined who (and how many) have joined the BDSM community for unhealthy reasons? Personal experience only. A very quickly described example would be that I have met a submissive for a date, then discovered she has tremendous issues with hurts from her past (usually, but not always, centering on abusive interactions with men), as well as her appearance. Because of this, her reactions to me, both as a Dominant, and as a normal, virile male, were skewed in a very negative and potentially hurtful way. This is, of course, not the only example I could offer, but, I admit, my perspective on this is based on annecdotal evidence only. 2. Are you degreed in the mental health field that we should give any weight to your opinion? Of Course not. I am a person with feelings and an opinion. The original post was written from a personal perspective, not a professional one. Your suggestion that I am speaking above my station is more indicative of your opinions than it is of the topic itself. I suggest you go to the POLLS forum and actually read the thread mentioned here. 3. Why do you single out submissives? You don't see unhealthy reasons as the motivation for Dominants/Tops to join the community? Of course I do. Doms/Dommes have issues, just like everybody else. A good response in the original thread said that there is a range of personalities in any group... some good, some not so good. Doms/Dommes have issues that could be construed as un-healthy for forming the basis of a D/s interaction. However, that was not the subject of the OP or the subsequent thread. Is it neccesary to write a comprehensive thesis on a subject to render an opinion? 4. How is it that you are able to divine that someone is not actually following their true heart's desires? I am not able to divine anything. Furthermore, I never rendered an opinion on what the girl inquestion wants, or her motivations for wanting it. If you want to issue a challenge, check your facts. My OP was based on a "feeling", which was, in turn, based on several interactions with subs both online and in real life. 5. Why should we not view this as just another in a long line of "sensitive Dominant protector for all those poor submissives unable to fend for themselves" posts?Feel free to view it as you see fit. In the grand scheme of my life, how you feel about something I write in this forum, while not inconsequential to me, does not have any noteworthy affect on me. John [/quote]

slavegirljoy -> RE: Follow up to my post yesterday (10/30/2007 7:30:11 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Rover 5. Why should we not view this as just another in a long line of "sensitive Dominant protector for all those poor submissives unable to fend for themselves" posts? John This is what it is, to me. And, not only that, i have to wonder why do they only want to 'protect' the submissive 'girls' on CM? What about all the 'real girls', who are 16, 15, or even 14 and below, who are vulnerable to the seduction of guys who pay them some attention and sucker them into giving up their virginity to them, only for them to find out, after, that the guy could not care less about her feelings? Don't they deserve protection from being hurt by guys who will take advantage of their need to feel loved? If someone feels a need to reach out and offer help to the vulnerable, why don't they contact their local Domestic Violence and Sexual Abuse center or, any other such group, and ask about volunteering opportunities that are available? Wouldn't that be more productive and useful than simply talking about wanting to help the "helpless" and "wounded" submissives on CM? slave joy Owned property of Master David

Dnomyar -> RE: Follow up to my post yesterday (10/30/2007 7:39:06 AM)
bigdaddybaba this isnt a pick up joint. Other than that this is interesting reading

LATEXBABY64 -> RE: Follow up to my post yesterday (10/30/2007 7:51:03 AM)
general thought on thread YOu know talking to this forum sometimes is like a bunch of rocks they just all pile together. Individual thought seems to be a lost art. If other people have to do the thinking for you your life is just blowing way like dust. what is point of living your life if everyone is living thinking it for you. To me that is boarder line escapism. not dealing with responsiblity or prioties. Kinda of like a acholic only in a emotional addict way. People always talk about Maturity which comes with responsiblity. Screw up it is on you. If you hear to find someone to try and fix your problems it is not going to happen. It is like watching rats in a race for cheese

Rover -> RE: Follow up to my post yesterday (10/30/2007 8:11:41 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Kondolinni 1. By what basis have you determined who (and how many) have joined the BDSM community for unhealthy reasons? Personal experience only. A very quickly described example would be that I have met a submissive for a date, then discovered she has tremendous issues with hurts from her past (usually, but not always, centering on abusive interactions with men), as well as her appearance. Because of this, her reactions to me, both as a Dominant, and as a normal, virile male, were skewed in a very negative and potentially hurtful way. This is, of course, not the only example I could offer, but, I admit, my perspective on this is based on annecdotal evidence only. The same issues exist in vanilla women and vanilla relationships. I cannot imagine that would cause you to question their participation in a vanilla lifestyle. Can you? quote: 2. Are you degreed in the mental health field that we should give any weight to your opinion? Of Course not. I am a person with feelings and an opinion. The original post was written from a personal perspective, not a professional one. Your suggestion that I am speaking above my station is more indicative of your opinions than it is of the topic itself. I suggest you go to the POLLS forum and actually read the thread mentioned here. My only suggestion is, as I stated, how much weight to give to this opinion (not whether you should have or express an opinion). Coming from a degreed professional it has considerably more validity than coming from a layman such as you or I. That's the nature of "considering the source" for any information. quote: 3. Why do you single out submissives? You don't see unhealthy reasons as the motivation for Dominants/Tops to join the community? Of course I do. Doms/Dommes have issues, just like everybody else. A good response in the original thread said that there is a range of personalities in any group... some good, some not so good. Doms/Dommes have issues that could be construed as un-healthy for forming the basis of a D/s interaction. However, that was not the subject of the OP or the subsequent thread. Is it neccesary to write a comprehensive thesis on a subject to render an opinion? No, a comprehensive thesis isn't necessary. Though a single sentence, or even part of a sentence, saying that you also see unhealthy reasons for Dominants as well is easy enough to slip in there. Though even in your response here you seem unwilling to make an uqualified statement that Dominants join the community for unhealthy reasons as well (you speak of issues that can be construed as unhealthy, which is a far bit less than your unqualified statement about submissives). I think it's reasonable for me to draw opinions from that, same as you have done. quote: 4. How is it that you are able to divine that someone is not actually following their true heart's desires? I am not able to divine anything. Furthermore, I never rendered an opinion on what the girl inquestion wants, or her motivations for wanting it. If you want to issue a challenge, check your facts. My OP was based on a "feeling", which was, in turn, based on several interactions with subs both online and in real life. I apologize if I misread your statement, but it seemed to me that you were infering that these submissives were not following their true heart's desire and I was wondering how you were able to come to that conclusion. I suppose this may be a lesson in what happens when we extrapolate too much from a mere "feeling". Though people have drawn conclusions and opinions based upon less. quote: 5. Why should we not view this as just another in a long line of "sensitive Dominant protector for all those poor submissives unable to fend for themselves" posts?Feel free to view it as you see fit. In the grand scheme of my life, how you feel about something I write in this forum, while not inconsequential to me, does not have any noteworthy affect on me. Well now, that's not exactly a denial, is it? John

Kondolinni -> RE: Follow up to my post yesterday (10/30/2007 8:35:43 AM)
The same issues exist in vanilla women and vanilla relationships. I cannot imagine that would cause you to question their participation in a vanilla lifestyle. Can you?Actually, if I were inclined to formulate either an emotional response or a personal opinion about a person in a vanilla relationship with issues similar to the ones referred to in this and the previous chain, it would likely effect me in a similar way. My only suggestion is, as I stated, how much weight to give to this opinion (not whether you should have or express an opinion). Coming from a degreed professional it has considerably more validity than coming from a layman such as you or I. That's the nature of "considering the source" for any information.Interesiting. What do you expect to find in a forum such as this? If I have an expectation of hearing the opinions and diagnoses of professionals, I go to a forum specific to their field of expertise. No, a comprehensive thesis isn't necessary. Though a single sentence, or even part of a sentence, saying that you also see unhealthy reasons for Dominants as well is easy enough to slip in there. Though even in your response here you seem unwilling to make an uqualified statement that Dominants join the community for unhealthy reasons as well (you speak of issues that can be construed as unhealthy, which is a far bit less than your unqualified statement about submissives). I think it's reasonable for me to draw opinions from that, same as you have done.Very well. I'll be unambiguous. There are issues Doms/Dommes use to form the reason for their participation in this lifestyle that are (on an equal level) potentially harmful to themselves and others. Again, such was not the topic of the OP, or this follow-up. I apologize if I misread your statement, but it seemed to me that you were infering that these submissives were not following their true heart's desire and I was wondering how you were able to come to that conclusion. I suppose this may be a lesson in what happens when we extrapolate too much from a mere "feeling". Though people have drawn conclusions and opinions based upon less.If I had to guess, I'd say this girl wants what she wants very passionately. Perhaps even despirately. It would also be my personal opinion that the depth of that need/desire is a marker/indicator (possibly) for the underlying issues that have been discussed here. Well now, that's not exactly a denial, is it?Hmm...was there something to confirm or deny? For the record; I am not a crusader. More like a concerned citizen. As I stated; form your own opinions.

Rover -> RE: Follow up to my post yesterday (10/30/2007 9:03:17 AM)
quote: The same issues exist in vanilla women and vanilla relationships. I cannot imagine that would cause you to question their participation in a vanilla lifestyle. Can you?Actually, if I were inclined to formulate either an emotional response or a personal opinion about a person in a vanilla relationship with issues similar to the ones referred to in this and the previous chain, it would likely effect me in a similar way. Nice answer, except that wasn't the question. We both know that you would not question her lifestyle, even if you thought she had issues. So why you would question the lifestyle of a submissive with those issues seems a bit inconsistent at best, if not disingenuous. quote: My only suggestion is, as I stated, how much weight to give to this opinion (not whether you should have or express an opinion). Coming from a degreed professional it has considerably more validity than coming from a layman such as you or I. That's the nature of "considering the source" for any information.Interesiting. What do you expect to find in a forum such as this? If I have an expectation of hearing the opinions and diagnoses of professionals, I go to a forum specific to their field of expertise. I have no expectations on what people will post. Only that I give relative weight to their opinions about mental health based upon their qualifications. If you are willing to accept everyone's opinion as equally qualified, that is your prerogative. Though I suspect that if you require a medical opinion you be looking for that diploma on the wall. Same goes for whomever you might choose to work on your car, build your home, do your taxes, etc. quote: No, a comprehensive thesis isn't necessary. Though a single sentence, or even part of a sentence, saying that you also see unhealthy reasons for Dominants as well is easy enough to slip in there. Though even in your response here you seem unwilling to make an uqualified statement that Dominants join the community for unhealthy reasons as well (you speak of issues that can be construed as unhealthy, which is a far bit less than your unqualified statement about submissives). I think it's reasonable for me to draw opinions from that, same as you have done.Very well. I'll be unambiguous. There are issues Doms/Dommes use to form the reason for their participation in this lifestyle that are (on an equal level) potentially harmful to themselves and others. Again, such was not the topic of the OP, or this follow-up. Thanks, that clears up a question I had. I hope someone will become a vocal advocate on their behalf, as you have for the poor submissives who can't make "good" and healthy decisions for themselves. quote: I apologize if I misread your statement, but it seemed to me that you were infering that these submissives were not following their true heart's desire and I was wondering how you were able to come to that conclusion. I suppose this may be a lesson in what happens when we extrapolate too much from a mere "feeling". Though people have drawn conclusions and opinions based upon less.If I had to guess, I'd say this girl wants what she wants very passionately. Perhaps even despirately. It would also be my personal opinion that the depth of that need/desire is a marker/indicator (possibly) for the underlying issues that have been discussed here. Yep, you're right... it's a guess. On that we now both agree. quote: Well now, that's not exactly a denial, is it?Hmm...was there something to confirm or deny? For the record; I am not a crusader. More like a concerned citizen. As I stated; form your own opinions. You say to-ma-to, I say to-mah-to. To which I have indeed formed an opinion. John

Kondolinni -> RE: Follow up to my post yesterday (10/30/2007 9:36:36 AM)
It sure is nice to work from home. I have billed $250.00 so far this morning during this exchange. Round 3... DING! Nice answer, except that wasn't the question. We both know that you would not question her lifestyle, even if you thought she had issues. So why you would question the lifestyle of a submissive with those issues seems a bit inconsistent at best, if not disingenuous. I understand now. Okay, I'll concede that my forming an opinion would not be in any way affected by her lifestyle, but rather on the problem only. I admit I would be less likely to connect the two if the person were involved in a vanilla relationship. I would suggest, however, that, in both cases, many of the underlying causes for the kinds of issues we are talking about would be the same. Abuse is abuse. Self-loathing is self-loathing. Now, I have to let you know, you've maintained my attention throughout these posts, but this one may be our first slip-up. I find it hard to believe you don't already know what my answer to this is. I'm guessing you took us here because you wanted to have these thoughts expressed in the forum. I'll bite, but much further down this road, and we'll lose sight of the original destination. Towit: What we call a "vanilla" relationship is a stereotype, or an archtype. Created and revised over hundreds of thousands of years to represent the "standard" by which males and females interact for the purposes of reproduction. We have been talking here about issues pertaning to a sub-class of relationship, one without the body of human experience and reflection behind it to allow us to formaulate a base-line archtype. As a sub-set of what we as humans generally define as a "typical" relationship, any BDSM oriented relationship is obviously more subject to evaluation and discussion. I have no expectations on what people will post. Only that I give relative weight to their opinions about mental health based upon their qualifications. If you are willing to accept everyone's opinion as equally qualified, that is your prerogative. Though I suspect that if you require a medical opinion you be looking for that diploma on the wall. Same goes for whomever you might choose to work on your car, build your home, do your taxes, etc. You need to take a few extra minutes to consider your responses. Do you honestly believe, from what you have seen of my intelligence (such as it may be), that I don't carefully check the referrences of any profesional I interact with? If you're getting bored with this exchange, we can stop anytime. Equally qualified? Do you honestly think this would be true? Equally welcome, yes, but I reserve the right to privately evaluate the relevence and usefulness of each person's comments/opinions as I see fit. Thanks, that clears up a question I had. I hope someone will become a vocal advocate on their behalf, as you have for the poor submissives who can't make "good" and healthy decisions for themselves. I don't know whether to hope you are being bluntly serious, or crafty and sly. I kind of hope for the latter. It would be more entertaining and interesting. Yep, you're right... it's a guess. On that we now both agree. Was that really neccesary? I never indicated otherwise. I hope flinging this (tiny) barb makes you feel better. Have your opinion. Enjoy it. More than anyone else in this or the original thread, you deserve it. You're a fairly entertaining person to talk to. At least in this venue. I feel I have, at this point, not only defended my OP and subsequent related statements, but also allowed fair and equal time for the democratic response. I'm getting a tad bored.

ownedgirlie -> RE: Follow up to my post yesterday (10/30/2007 10:44:34 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Rover I didn't read the original post, and will not comment upon it as a result. But this passage has me wondering several things: 1. By what basis have you determined who (and how many) have joined the BDSM community for unhealthy reasons? 2. Are you degreed in the mental health field that we should give any weight to your opinion? 3. Why do you single out submissives? You don't see unhealthy reasons as the motivation for Dominants/Tops to join the community? 4. How is it that you are able to divine that someone is not actually following their true heart's desires? 5. Why should we not view this as just another in a long line of "sensitive Dominant protector for all those poor submissives unable to fend for themselves" posts? John Brilliant. Can you please save this and post it every time someone posts about unhealthy submissives trying to find their way in life through BDSM?? Please?? I contend that lots of unhealthy people try to find their way in life through lots of different avenues - BDSM, Church, Sports, Music, Travel, Books, Career Paths - you name it, there are unhealthy individuals out there doing it, trying to get by. Maybe we should just stick them all on an island with the lepers, eh? :) I see post after post about unhealthy submissives searching for meaning in BDSM - To that I say, so fucking what? The folks who post that - are their lives so complete and healthy in every way? I think if so, they wouldn't be so concerned about reprimanding everyone who isn't. I didn't read the thread the OP is referring to. I'm not at all interested in it. On that note, I have to go help my unhealthy mother with her all too healthy finances. Hmm, I wonder if I'm an unhealthy submissive trying to find my way in life through helping my mother...? [8D]

Rover -> RE: Follow up to my post yesterday (10/30/2007 10:50:14 AM)
quote: Nice answer, except that wasn't the question. We both know that you would not question her lifestyle, even if you thought she had issues. So why you would question the lifestyle of a submissive with those issues seems a bit inconsistent at best, if not disingenuous. I understand now. Okay, I'll concede that my forming an opinion would not be in any way affected by her lifestyle, but rather on the problem only. I admit I would be less likely to connect the two if the person were involved in a vanilla relationship. I would suggest, however, that, in both cases, many of the underlying causes for the kinds of issues we are talking about would be the same. Abuse is abuse. Self-loathing is self-loathing. Well, unless I've completely misread your initial post, as your clarification changes the meaning considerably. I understood your post to be concerned with unhealthy reasons for submissives to have joined the BDSM community, rather than the underlying causes of unhealthy relationships for women. quote: Now, I have to let you know, you've maintained my attention throughout these posts, but this one may be our first slip-up. I find it hard to believe you don't already know what my answer to this is. I'm guessing you took us here because you wanted to have these thoughts expressed in the forum. I'll bite, but much further down this road, and we'll lose sight of the original destination. I think you're reading far too much into my questions. I'm not that complicated. Pretty simple, in fact. quote: Towit: What we call a "vanilla" relationship is a stereotype, or an archtype. Created and revised over hundreds of thousands of years to represent the "standard" by which males and females interact for the purposes of reproduction. We have been talking here about issues pertaning to a sub-class of relationship, one without the body of human experience and reflection behind it to allow us to formaulate a base-line archtype. As a sub-set of what we as humans generally define as a "typical" relationship, any BDSM oriented relationship is obviously more subject to evaluation and discussion. You've been discussing an (unfortunate) reality that some women in any lifestyle have been abused (by whatever standard you mean) and are self-loathing as a result (by whatever mechanism you may mean), or have other undefined issues, as if it were unique to women in BDSM and was the catalyst for them having sought out the Leather community. When questioned about the validity of that assumption, you admit that it's not unique to women in BDSM. So whether their relationship is "typical" (ie: vanilla) or not (ie: power exchange) is an (as you have already admitted) unrelated to the problems that some women (regardless of lifestyle) encounter. quote: I have no expectations on what people will post. Only that I give relative weight to their opinions about mental health based upon their qualifications. If you are willing to accept everyone's opinion as equally qualified, that is your prerogative. Though I suspect that if you require a medical opinion you be looking for that diploma on the wall. Same goes for whomever you might choose to work on your car, build your home, do your taxes, etc. You need to take a few extra minutes to consider your responses. Do you honestly believe, from what you have seen of my intelligence (such as it may be), that I don't carefully check the referrences of any profesional I interact with? If you're getting bored with this exchange, we can stop anytime. Equally qualified? Do you honestly think this would be true? Equally welcome, yes, but I reserve the right to privately evaluate the relevence and usefulness of each person's comments/opinions as I see fit. I don't "need" to do anything, thank you very much. And I can no more "see" your intelligence than I can "see" your blood pressure (though both can be tested and quantified by methods unavailable to me where I sit). Though I do "see" that you've grasped my point... you carefully check the references of anyone whose opinion is meaningful to you. Just as I ascertained your references for your opinion regarding someone's mental health. And like yourself, I will evaluate its relevance and usefulness on that basis. quote: Thanks, that clears up a question I had. I hope someone will become a vocal advocate on their behalf, as you have for the poor submissives who can't make "good" and healthy decisions for themselves. I don't know whether to hope you are being bluntly serious, or crafty and sly. I kind of hope for the latter. It would be more entertaining and interesting. I'm not very crafty or sly. Though I can have a bit of a sarcastic and sardonic sense of humor. Not to be mistaken for a lack of seriousness. quote: Yep, you're right... it's a guess. On that we now both agree. Was that really neccesary? I never indicated otherwise. I hope flinging this (tiny) barb makes you feel better. It was no barb; just a statement that we are both in agreement on the characterization of your opinion as a "guess" (your term, not mine). quote: Have your opinion. Enjoy it. More than anyone else in this or the original thread, you deserve it. You're a fairly entertaining person to talk to. At least in this venue. I feel I have, at this point, not only defended my OP and subsequent related statements, but also allowed fair and equal time for the democratic response. I'm getting a tad bored. I've enjoyed the conversation thus far as well. John

RRafe -> RE: Follow up to my post yesterday (10/30/2007 10:56:15 AM)
Fast reply. I wish people would quit being such goddamned nannies. You have no right to tell other people how to live. We make our own choices in life, and we live with them. As long as they are within the law, I see nothing wrong with pursuing what you desire.

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