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Ive come over all feminist?!? - 10/30/2007 1:12:25 PM   
colouredin


Posts: 4279
Joined: 2/2/2007
Status: offline 		I want to prefix this message with the fact that im aiming it at subs/slaves.

I have never identified with feminists. In fact in sociology it was the theory that wound me up most. So i find it strange that this arena brings out the feminist in me. I argue that i am submissive by nature, why then do i get so angry when anyone suggests that it is womens born role to please men? should i not agree with that because it part of who i am? basically i was wondering (hoping) if anyone else felt this way ever.

This is written with respect i dont want a big row about whether women are that role or not.


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RE: Ive come over all feminist?!? - 10/30/2007 1:17:49 PM   
Guest123


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...perhaps because you wish to give it not have it expected of you,.. if i am understanding the statement... i would say that i was born and trained to have a submissive nature,... that does not necessarily mean that i was born to please men... it means that i have a servants heart, a mothers heart, and caring , giving, loving nurturing nature, willing and able to serve, but that does not mean that my only role is to please men,... perhaps i've missed the statement or the intention of your statement... please correct me if i not understanding you




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RE: Ive come over all feminist?!? - 10/30/2007 1:24:46 PM   
toservez


Posts: 1733
Joined: 9/7/2006
From: All over now in Minnesota
Status: offline 		This gets into the “true” way type of thing.

I have no problem with feminist that fight to have equal rights for things that in history women have been second class citizens. I though do not think to characterize all feminist as people who think women should behave exactly like men and disapprove of the more traditional roles women in relationships have had over the years. I think this is an unfair judgment on most. I think most feminist are just in favor of the women choosing what role in society is best for them individually.

Personally though I do tend to get into bad arguments with feminists when they are out spoken about topics when they are comparing apples to oranges instead of apples to apples. I will avoid examples to not hijack the thread.

I think to paint a picture of feminist not approving of a more traditional role of a woman as an individual preference is no better then for anyone else to go all women are this or any other true way or gross generalization statement.




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RE: Ive come over all feminist?!? - 10/30/2007 2:17:46 PM   
batshalom


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Joined: 9/17/2007
Status: offline 		Maybe because even though you're a submissive you still want your submission to be acknowleded and appreciated, not just expected.

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RE: Ive come over all feminist?!? - 10/30/2007 3:14:02 PM   
TotalState


Posts: 278
Joined: 9/3/2007
Status: offline 		When did feminism become a dirty word?

I always, and still, equate feminism with the fight for equality, not for special treatment.  And as such, it is nothing to be ashamed of - quite the opposite!  It's true that today's society may require a new brand of feminism, that focuses on different issues than 30 years ago, but I don't think we're ready to call it quits just yet, equality-wise. 


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RE: Ive come over all feminist?!? - 10/30/2007 3:28:10 PM   
RedMagic1


Posts: 6470
Joined: 5/10/2007
Status: offline 		Women have called me a feminist my entire life, as a compliment or a "glad you're in the club" remark.  I have a fundamental belief that women are just as capable as anyone else (i.e., men :-) ) to play any role in industry, society, academics, etc., and I have acted on that belief by providing training and education to people who might not otherwise have gotten it.

I'm also a Dom interested in power exchange, and am most attracted to very competent, in-charge women who pay me the honor of handing over their control and trust to me.

I suppose we could analyze me and my kinks into the ground (or do the same with anybody else) but I don't see any contradiction whatsoever between being a feminist and being a Dom or a sub.  The first is a belief about equality for all on a societal level; the second is a personal orientation for what I want in my personal life with the person or people I trust the most in the world.

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RE: Ive come over all feminist?!? - 10/30/2007 3:48:56 PM   
colouredin


Posts: 4279
Joined: 2/2/2007
Status: offline 		I guess it sounded like i was feminist bashing, sorry about that  but it is like every fundematal belief, it can go too far. People reading into everything when there is nothing there so for me i found it hard to identify with that. I have never felt that my gender is a hiderance to me. But i think batshalom probably got closest to my understanding of it. I guess some of the backlash does come from people questioning my ability to be a sub and true sub and all that rubbish we all get thrown at us at some point. I also guess its due to reading the opinions of a vast number of people and obviously im bound to disagree and maybe even be offended by some views because they are not something i have ever really had to face. It makes me understnad more how women like emiline pankhurst felt which before was something i guess i had no real grasp of. I just think its rather amazing how you can actualyl see your perception change as more things happen in your life. Something that one day you would swear off the next you embrace. being aware of these changes is something new to me im rather amazingly stubborn .

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RE: Ive come over all feminist?!? - 10/30/2007 4:43:08 PM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TotalState

When did feminism become a dirty word?


When virtually every person you run into who uses it is all about women's rights, rather than equal rights.

When did you last see a self-proclaimed feminist fight to overturn the trend for women to always get custody of children, for instance? Around here, that is pretty universally what happens. Similarly, when did you last see one fight to have it more widely recognized that women also perpetrate domestic violence, if not as often? I've seen my share of legitimately psycho bitches (as in forced inpatient care candidates) get restraining orders on the gentlest men you'd ever meet.

Similarly, virtually every person I ran into- prior to CM- using the Gorean label was nothing more than a weak and pathetic misogynist who had to rely on fandom to get girls, and with no comprehension of the philosophy inherent in that lifestyle, let alone living by it. Here, I instead found people who were using the word to describe a way of life that I closely identified with, although I don't agree with everyone, of course.

In both cases, 90% of the people who identify as it, are simply morons hiding behind a legitimate label.

Sorting out those 10% who lend a label some legitimacy is non-trivial.

Health,
al-Aswad.


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RE: Ive come over all feminist?!? - 10/30/2007 4:55:33 PM   
Shawn1066


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quote:

ORIGINAL: colouredin

I want to prefix this message with the fact that im aiming it at subs/slaves.

I have never identified with feminists. In fact in sociology it was the theory that wound me up most. So i find it strange that this arena brings out the feminist in me. I argue that i am submissive by nature, why then do i get so angry when anyone suggests that it is womens born role to please men? should i not agree with that because it part of who i am? basically i was wondering (hoping) if anyone else felt this way ever.

This is written with respect i dont want a big row about whether women are that role or not.



Well, of course you should get angry when people say that all women are submissive...  That's simply untrue.  You being submissive has nothing to do with your Feminist ideology.  After all, you have the power to choose what you want your role to be in life.  You're not forced by society to -have- to fill a submissive role just because that's how things work.  It's your choice.  So yes, as a submissive, you're perfectly allowed to be angry when somebody says that it is a women's role to please men in a submissive manner(If that's indeed what you were implying)...because we both know that's simply not true.




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RE: Ive come over all feminist?!? - 10/30/2007 4:57:08 PM   
batshalom


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

quote:

ORIGINAL: TotalState

When did feminism become a dirty word?


When virtually every person you run into who uses it is all about women's rights, rather than equal rights.




Oh. Aswad. Hi. ~taken slightly aback~ Didn't recognize you there for a sec (wouldn't have recognized you without your sig, in fact). Nice new pic.

anyway

Agreed. Feminism has so long been about women's rights rather than equal rights ... but there is a reason, of course. The first feminists really had to push and push hard, and now that there is forward momentum behind it, it's difficult to slow that ball down.

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RE: Ive come over all feminist?!? - 10/30/2007 5:06:27 PM   
Aswad


Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline 		Thanks, batshalom. Same guy, different camera.

I don't disagree in the slightest about how it's a problem of inertia. Society can be modeled as a resonant circuit of sorts... you get overshoot and ringing. Hopefully, the next backlash won't put women back in the dark ages. Anyway, I just commented that a consequence of this is that the label has lost its original connotations in any useful sense.

While one can try to retain the original semantics of the word, the reality is that- in communication- the meaning is different from what it once was. There's a huge machine of sorts going, with lots of commercial interests, as well as a bunch of people who are a movement in their own right. And a lot of those actually show that men and women are not so different after all, by seeking nothing more than a role reversal, rather than fixing the problem.

So, yeah, hard to slow the ball down, but hopefully it will happen so a backlash can be avoided.

Health,
al-Aswad.


_____________________________

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From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


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RE: Ive come over all feminist?!? - 10/30/2007 5:06:44 PM   
laurell3


Posts: 6577
Joined: 5/5/2005
Status: offline 		Role doesn't necessarily equal personality.  Submissive doesn't always mean always submissive and female certainly doesn't always mean submissive personality or role.  I have a very assertive personality, I am also primarily a submissive for the right person in the right circumstances.  To have someone criticise or think less of me because of my sex in general life is offensive to me, that doesn't mean I'm any less submissive in my private life for the right Dom/me. 

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RE: Ive come over all feminist?!? - 10/30/2007 5:08:23 PM   
TotalState


Posts: 278
Joined: 9/3/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

When did you last see a self-proclaimed feminist fight to overturn the trend for women to always get custody of children, for instance?

There is some movement on that in my country.  Only a few years ago, men were awarded the same rights to a paternity leave as women are to maternity leave.  The gender roles and laws have been somwhat improved, albeit slowly, in the past 10 years, around here (Iceland). 

Feminists were at the forefront of these changes.


I do know what you are talking about, though.  The problem is, that many self-proclaimed feminists are unwilling to see the balance tip in the other direction, even on issues that favor women, until the balance in general is more equal.  That doesn't excuse their behaviour of course.


Sorry for the semi-hijack, by the way. 


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RE: Ive come over all feminist?!? - 10/30/2007 5:15:04 PM   
Axxxiss


Posts: 5
Joined: 10/22/2007
Status: offline 		Women are treated like second class citizens..? What about the second class citizens.. who are they.. and don't they have rights too.

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RE: Ive come over all feminist?!?ORIGINAL: Aswad When did you last see a self-proclaimed feminist fight to overturn the trend for women to always get custody of children, for in...RE: An example of why our military loves the press ....ORIGINAL:SimplyMichael This would be amusing if it wasn't so utterly tragic. You do realize that the natives living in America before the...


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RE: Ive come over all feminist?!? - 10/30/2007 5:24:29 PM   
Aswad


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Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline 		Same thing here in Norway, TotalState. Although I would note that the agenda was quite different, as far as I can tell. For that matter, lesbian mothers don't get maternity/paternity leave, but they take unpaid time off, and spend more time with their kids than straight mothers do, on average. Do a better job of securing male role models, too. Makes me think the whole model of parental leave has issues, but I digress.

As a man who has always considered people on their individual merits, rather than on the various factors that people are prejudiced about (excepting intelligence, which I had a lot of prejudices regarding until a few years back)... it's really sad to see that needle swing in a direction where I've seen qualified men turned down in favour of a woman that meets quota regulations while providing the boss something to oogle at, to take a very minor problem.

In fact, one of the places I worked, even the women in the place made no secret that the one girl they hired for IT was just a pair of legs, with no qualifications, eating up the money that could have been spent on making it a better workplace for everyone. I am pretty confident that she didn't feel any better about that than those of us who had to pick up her slack.

I love women, and I'd love to see people judged "on the content of their character" and their merits, rather than by their chest and groin regions. While feminism has gone a long way toward making that possible, it has now become the greatest obstacle to realizing it.

Edit: And borrowing a point from the Mars vs Venus thread... the operative word in "boys' club" (as applied to management) is not "boys," but rather "club." The sooner women pick up on that, and also realize that the business world will not stand still during a culture shift (that would be yielding ground to the competition, regardless of the eventual productivity boost), the sooner we will see more women in the board rooms.

I have to play by the same "boys' club" rules as a woman would, and I hate it more than the average woman.

Health,
al-Aswad.

< Message edited by Aswad -- 10/30/2007 5:28:14 PM >

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From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


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RE: Ive come over all feminist?!? - 10/30/2007 8:24:43 PM   
junecleaver


Posts: 1145
Joined: 4/6/2005
Status: offline 		 
quote:

ORIGINAL: colouredin

I want to prefix this message with the fact that im aiming it at subs/slaves.

I have never identified with feminists. In fact in sociology it was the theory that wound me up most. So i find it strange that this arena brings out the feminist in me. I argue that i am submissive by nature, why then do i get so angry when anyone suggests that it is womens born role to please men? should i not agree with that because it part of who i am? basically i was wondering (hoping) if anyone else felt this way ever.

This is written with respect i dont want a big row about whether women are that role or not.



Maybe you find it disrespectful that someone simply expects you to submit because you have a vagina. 

I've never been into feminism, at least the way that most feminists have spun it for me.  I think of my submission as a girly type of thing.  It enhances my feminity.  And in my own little bubble, it works.  I like having different gender roles.  I enjoy it when men open the door for me.  I think it's awesome that I get drinks for free.  I have gotten out of speeding tickets before simply because I am a woman.  I never pay for dates.  I will never be drafted into the army.  I don't need an excuse to have a fabulous collection of shoes.  The list goes on.

If feminism means changing any of that stuff...yeah...I'm not a feminist.


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RE: Ive come over all feminist?!? - 10/30/2007 8:45:04 PM   
arayofsunshine55


Posts: 545
Joined: 8/1/2004
From: San Francisco, CA
Status: offline 		That you do not believe women were born to please men does not make you a feminist.  Just a woman with an opinion.  And as a feminist I fully support your right to have one.

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RE: Ive come over all feminist?!? - 10/30/2007 8:51:07 PM   
JackM1


Posts: 137
Joined: 2/3/2007
Status: offline 		theres a difference between thinking women were born to serve men, and that women who love their men choose to serve them. (or anyone, for that matter)

i choose to serve those that i love because i feel as though they deserve it, but i'll be the first to say that most people do NOT deserve it and are likely to have their nuts cut off with a scalpel if they even suggest that i should simply roll over for them.

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RE: Ive come over all feminist?!? - 10/30/2007 10:06:50 PM   
Honsoku


Posts: 422
Joined: 6/26/2007
Status: offline 		Just because being submissive is part of who you are, doesn't mean you need to believe it is part of everyone who shares your gender. IMNSHO, feminism at it's core should be about ensuring as much free choice as possible. That a woman should not be treated as X, Y, or Z just because she is a woman. In that regard I am an ardent feminist (though my fantasies might speak differently ). This also means that both male and female supremacists rankle me to no small degree.

You probably get angry for any of several reasons;

1: Perhaps because the statement "all women are submissive" devalues and depersonalizes your submissiveness (it is no longer "your's").

2: You recognize that everybody is different and that blanket statements like that lead to misery on all sides.

3: Stupidity pisses you off.

4: Any or all of the above, plus others I haven't thought of.

Honsoku

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RE: Ive come over all feminist?!? - 10/30/2007 10:24:18 PM   
secretagentgirl


Posts: 70
Joined: 9/16/2007
Status: offline 		I had to check your age and wasn't surprised to see that you are young.  I think a lot of younger women feel the way you do about feminism... because the original feminists paved a nice path for you.  Now you can feel that your gender is no hindrance to anything, as you stated.  Unfortunately, as you get older, you may learn that not everyone actually feels that way.  And so now you've seen that some people (both males and females) do want gender differentiation.  I doubt you'll end up being a hard-core feminist, but over time you'll probably "get it" more.

I do identify with feminists, probably since I was a kid in the 70's and my mom was always feeding me the lines about women's opportunities.  She'd say "BE a doctor, don't MARRY a doctor."  Now I wish I'd just married one.   I'm reversing a bit as a I get older.  In fact, the expectations set by feminists that we can work and parent and change the world all at once is a load of crap.  Nobody has that much energy.  And you will be surprised to see how men still expect women to do about 90% of the work when it comes to child-rearing even if both parents work.  Some ideas are hard to change.

Needless to say, I am a feminist who is quite happy to submit in the bedroom, as long as it is not presumed.  It is my CHOICE, and that is what feminism is all about.


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