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RE: Ive come over all feminist?!? - 10/30/2007 10:42:37 PM

Lordandmaster

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I love coming all over feminists.

(in reply to colouredin)

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RE: Ive come over all feminist?!? - 10/31/2007 12:10:22 AM

Noah

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quote:

ORIGINAL: colouredin

I want to prefix this message with the fact that im aiming it at subs/slaves.

I have never identified with feminists. In fact in sociology it was the theory that wound me up most. So i find it strange that this arena brings out the feminist in me. I argue that i am submissive by nature, why then do i get so angry when anyone suggests that it is womens born role to please men? should i not agree with that because it part of who i am? basically i was wondering (hoping) if anyone else felt this way ever.

It is perfectly consistent to recognize that women in general, as members of the human species, have a right to self-determination and to do this even as you live out your personal decision (as a woman with the human right to make that decision) to express what you feel is a personal tendency toward submission.

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RE: Ive come over all feminist?!? - 10/31/2007 5:22:05 AM

Lashra

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Feminism is when you believe that women should have equal rights as men, it has nothing to do with submission/Dominance. I am a feminist and I personally do not believe that ALL women were meant to be submissive to men, particularly since I have always been quite Dominant, but I do realize that many other women are submissive. As far as the "natural order" goes its just a another boatload of crap used to control other people, thats my opinion.

So its ok to stand up for women's rights and to be submissive. I personally think a Dominant would admire you for having strong beliefs, as it is a strength.

~Lashra

_____________________________

“We can never judge the lives of others, because each person knows only their own pain and renunciation. It's one thing to feel that you are on the right path, but it's another to think that yours is the only path.”

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RE: Ive come over all feminist?!? - 10/31/2007 6:53:30 AM

Celeste43

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You're not a feminist? You believe you should do the same job as the man working next to you, yet only get half the pay? You believe that you should have to submit to rape by your boss to keep that job? You think medical schools should return to never accepting women? And of course, not being a feminist you want to see all women deprived of the right to vote. Weird!

Okay, with that point made, what's getting you upset is that someone is taking away the one thing feminism has given you the rights to, the freedom of choice. I choose to submit, and I choose who I submit to.

When a profile says all women should be submissive, it removes the freedom of choice. It says that dominant women should have to submit even though they will be miserable. It says that women who like being on their own should have to submit and be unhappy. It says that you aren't of equal value, because if you were then you would have the same right as the poster, the ability to choose for yourself how you want to live and with whom.

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RE: Ive come over all feminist?!? - 10/31/2007 9:04:50 AM

bipolarber

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The basic idea behind feminisim is that women should have equal rights under the law as men: same pay, same benefits, same voice in government. A secondary concern of feminisim is that the individual have the right to self determination. If you are submissive, you have the right to practice it. For a while there, some of the more militant factions within feminisim were trying to choke off that right of the individual. They (mostly Dworkin and McKinnon) were making all sorts of wild claims that "the slightest glance from a male was tanatamount to being raped" and other such nonsense. If your exposure to feminist theory was during those days, I can hardly blame you for wanting to distance yourself from it. But, the movement toward equality is still going on, if a bit slow. The ERA is showing signs of being revived, the equal pay for equal work is still on the table, and women are enjoying greater opportunities in the workplace.

Only recently has the freedom to choose your own form of sexual expression caught on. So, don't throw the baby out with the bathwater... remember, it's all about the rights to "Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness." (No matter if that happiness is achieved by kneeling at the feet of a Dom, or having a consenting partner kneeling at your feet, depending on personal preference.)

Oh, and Aswad, Let me compliment you on the new pic too... much better than the old one with the flashlight under the chin... LOL (I always thought that one made it look like you were telling ghost stories.)

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RE: Ive come over all feminist?!? - 10/31/2007 2:30:31 PM

handsoverhead

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Fast reply having not read all posts ...

For me, feminism is about choice. I choose to be submissive to one man and that is an active, conscious choice. In being active and conscious about my choice, I come to submission from a place of personal strength. Which works for me.

(struggled a lot with reconciling feminism and submission in the beginning ..)

edited for grammar.

< Message edited by handsoverhead -- 10/31/2007 2:31:57 PM >

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RE: Ive come over all feminist?!? - 10/31/2007 10:02:19 PM

erebus

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My mom always worked. So did my dad for that matter. My mom never let anything hold her back. She went back to school in her 40s and got another degree, opened her own business, was active in many organizations, was accomplished in her field, and had many friends and people who admired her, including her family.

Maybe that's why I don't want that in a woman. I prefer a stay-at-home woman, not necessarily highly educated, more of a traditional household. My siblings and I were lonely growing up. We were raised by a succession of what you would call now nannies. I disliked that.

I loved my mom a lot. She was a good friend. She just wasn't around a lot when I was growing up. That does not do the best for the children, in my opinion.

(in reply to Lordandmaster)

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RE: Ive come over all feminist?!? - 12/1/2007 1:45:20 PM

AquaticSub

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quote:

ORIGINAL: colouredin

So i find it strange that this arena brings out the feminist in me. I argue that i am submissive by nature, why then do i get so angry when anyone suggests that it is womens born role to please men? should i not agree with that because it part of who i am? basically i was wondering (hoping) if anyone else felt this way ever.

This is written with respect i dont want a big row about whether women are that role or not.

Why would you agree with it? You, like me, are only one woman. Neither you or I can speak for all women and I have met too many perfectly happy male submissives and female dominants to buy into that theory.

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

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RE: Ive come over all feminist?!? - 12/1/2007 2:59:00 PM

OsideGirl

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There's a difference between not being Alpha and being "born to serve". Considering that submissive personalities come in both genders, this would make no sense.

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Give a girl the right shoes and she will conquer the world. ~ Marilyn Monroe

The Accelerated Velocity of Terminological Inexactitude

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RE: Ive come over all feminist?!? - 12/1/2007 4:00:56 PM

liminalRapture

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Feminism has been an incredibly gift to me. It has meant I get relatively the same pay as the men in my department with the same education. It means I can go out in the world and accomplish as much as I have the ability to accomplish. It means I can write my own destiny--separate of what my father (who's property I would have been a century ago) thinks.

It also means I can take drugs that have been tested on women, and not just on men. It means that I have a right to birth control (yeah!) and can choose what I wish to do with my life.

That said, obnoxious feminists are obnoxious. But I think, OP, the emphasis should be on anyone who tries to make your choices for you (without your choosing to relinquish that power).

One of the gifts of feminism is I can choose where and to whom I will surrender my power, which in infrequently to a very select few. And it is SO much more powerful to relinquish that power, for me, because I have some. When I have to temp to make ends meet for a month, and I'm subservient all day, I have NO interest in surrendering at night. It is the power and authority during the day that feeds my surrender.

And, I need to have my surrender appreciated. I'm not a slave--for me that sense of having please, of delighting someone, that is a great joy. If it were just taken for granted, "oh, of course she does that--it is a woman's place," I'd just be bitchy all day long.

The attacks on feminism from within the S&M community made it harder for me to accept my submissive nature. I know NOW messed up, in 1980 when they said "sadomasochism is an issue of exploitation and violence, not affectional/sexual preference." But NOW changed its view in 1999. And NOW changed its view because of feminist activism and other feminists realizing they'd goofed and were wrong.

Being a feminist is about saying I'm free to have my own destiny. And while I haven't seen feminists talking about child support, I read a blog the other day about date rape, arguing women need to be clearer with communication and that the dialogue regarding no means no wasn't fair to men. Or something like that.

_____________________________

"Ring the bells that can still ring. Forget your perfect offering. There's a crack in everything. That's how the light gets in." Leonard Cohen.

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RE: Ive come over all feminist?!? - 12/2/2007 2:32:30 PM

slavemaia

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quote:

ORIGINAL: colouredin

I want to prefix this message with the fact that im aiming it at subs/slaves.

I have never identified with feminists. In fact in sociology it was the theory that wound me up most. So i find it strange that this arena brings out the feminist in me. I argue that i am submissive by nature, why then do i get so angry when anyone suggests that it is womens born role to please men? should i not agree with that because it part of who i am? basically i was wondering (hoping) if anyone else felt this way ever.

This is written with respect i dont want a big row about whether women are that role or not.

Being submissive by nature doesn't mean i submit to everyone and anyone just because they're a particular sex. i don't submit to men in general. i submit to Chairman. Women's Liberation provided women with the opportunity to choose our own destinies rather than have them inflicted on us. i am thankful for this, although it also created chaos in many ways too imho.

_____________________________

She reaches up, not for the apple, but for what causes it to be there.
slave to love - - Chairman's maia

(in reply to colouredin)

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RE: Ive come over all feminist?!? - 12/3/2007 9:01:54 AM

HalloweenWhite

Posts: 1028
Joined: 6/20/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: colouredin

I want to prefix this message with the fact that im aiming it at subs/slaves.

I have never identified with feminists. In fact in sociology it was the theory that wound me up most. So i find it strange that this arena brings out the feminist in me. I argue that i am submissive by nature, why then do i get so angry when anyone suggests that it is womens born role to please men? should i not agree with that because it part of who i am? basically i was wondering (hoping) if anyone else felt this way ever.

This is written with respect i dont want a big row about whether women are that role or not.

IMO the reason you get angry is because the difference between BDSM and so called sex roles is that you have -chosen- your role, not had it foisted on you by people who have a vested interest in you being a cirtain "way"; it's convenient to men that a woman stays at home, etc so that he can be looked after.

This goes against people who think of so called traditional roles as they are called (mainly to try to justify them) because you should, in their opinion, feel obliged as it were to conform to (their) conventions.

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RE: Ive come over all feminist?!? - 12/3/2007 11:21:17 AM

feralkyttin

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Joined: 11/14/2007
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To everyone,
I may or may not be a feminist. I'm all about equal rights. I think that equal rights are far from equal though. I'm tired of hearing bitches whine about not getting treated how they want. To me... freedom of choice is far more important than equal rights. I'm free to choose to be submissive. I'm free to choose to be a slave. I'm free to choose to flip you the bird if you don't like my opinions. I'm free to express my opinions. Feminism is out dated. Feminism is bull shit. To me.... feminists these days are hairy women who are pissed because men don't give them what they want when they want it.

I've read very little on the subject, but I've read far more than what I realize. I hope I haven't offended anyone, but if I did..... Go whine about it to someone who gives a damn, please, because I choose not to.

meesha

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RE: Ive come over all feminist?!? - 12/3/2007 1:01:57 PM

AquaticSub

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So... what have you read?

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

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RE: Ive come over all feminist?!? - 12/4/2007 9:18:25 AM

HalloweenWhite

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Don't knock feminism, it's the reason you have the right to -choose- to submit and the reason why, when you "safe word" the safe word is respected.

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RE: Ive come over all feminist?!? - 12/6/2007 5:06:09 AM

kesi

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I have no problem reconciling my feminism with submission, Its about choice.
Women having the same choices men have, men having the same choices women have
and generally letting people live their lives in whatever way makes them happy.

I think you girls who are antifeminst are misguided in what it really means more than anything else.

(in reply to HalloweenWhite)

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RE: Ive come over all feminist?!? - 12/6/2007 5:29:47 AM

sexyred1

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quote:

ORIGINAL: bipolarber

The basic idea behind feminisim is that women should have equal rights under the law as men: same pay, same benefits, same voice in government. A secondary concern of feminisim is that the individual have the right to self determination. If you are submissive, you have the right to practice it. But, the movement toward equality is still going on, if a bit slow. The ERA is showing signs of being revived, the equal pay for equal work is still on the table, and women are enjoying greater opportunities in the workplace.

I had to quote this as a woman in business. I am sickened to say that it is absolutely still going on and the movement, if there is any, is at a snail's pace.

I was just downsized from a company. We were purchased by a private equity company about a year ago. My beloved boss (a man who had many women on his team) was laid off in July). Since our acquisition, we got a new male boss, who had, only men on his team (sales team by the way).

Since July, 35 women over the age of 40 have all systematically been "downsized" from the company from all areas. I thought I was safe since I was the TOP PRODUCING salesperson in the entire division.

Nope. They waited till I closed the book on 2007 business and then end of October let me know I was also being "restructured" out. I pointed out how interesting it was that so many women were being let go and how a class action suit should be of interest to them.

I found out that NYC is an "at will" state of employment and anyone who received any type of severance cannot sue after the fact, so no one would join a class action suit. Plus, I was not there long enough (only 10 months) to make it worthwhile.

But, despite all things being EQUAL, on a team of 10, being the only woman and the highest producer, strangely, I was the only one downsized from the new management.

I find this goes on all the time in business, despite the endless talk about our far we have come.

Oh, and none of this has anything to do with being submissive; like other women, I am totally alpha, assertive and make my own decisions and choices in life, submit to no one except out of my own desire.

Feminism to me simply means getting equal rights under employment and opportunities and I can tell you, there is still no equality and there is still a glass ceiling.

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RE: Ive come over all feminist?!? - 12/6/2007 8:18:58 AM

Missokyst

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I never got that "woman's role is to serve men" idea. I enjoy catering to people. I love spoiling my mate and since I am hetro, that has always been a man. But I also like a bit of spoiling myself and don't really feel the need to cater to everyone.
I am not a feminist though I do believe that we are equal until we choose not to be equal.
Sure men have some physical advantage for some things. But we are not cavemen anymore, brains are just as important as brawn and the dependency has lessened in our time.
I am a peoplist with the right to choose who and what I serve.
Kyst

_____________________________

pain is the breaking of the shell that encloses your understanding ~Gibran, Kahlil

“The truth is, everyone is going to hurt you. You just got to find the ones worth suffering for.”
― Bob Marley

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RE: Ive come over all feminist?!? - 12/6/2007 11:22:18 AM

phoenixxy

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I'm not an in your face feminist, although i have family members who are, when i say that i want to serve my man I get told that women fought for years to be equal to men, however to me i feel that the fight was to have the right to choose, not to have to do anything, we should all be able to choose what we want and how we want to live our lives, feminists who say that wanting to serve a man is wrong seem to be to be trying to take away that right of choice/.

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RE: Ive come over all feminist?!? - 12/6/2007 12:01:12 PM

vield

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I've been busy and not on line much for a few weeks, so I'm glad to see this thread and the different points of views people are expressing.

I have learned that I have a problem with labels people apply to other people. Often any 2 people will have totally different definitions of whatever labels are being discussed, and will not stop to get the consent of the person they label to their definition of that label.

Often one labels another to put the other down or to try to get one's own definitions made into law.

To me a feminist is one who stands up for the rights of all people to fair and equal treatment in law, lifestyle and business. I KNOW that many have different definitions. But that is mine. I call myself a feminist, even though many people marching in the same equal rights marches and "Take Back The Night" marches going back into the '60's actively put me down for being male.

I found that I do not care for zealots of any flavor, even if they support causes I also support.

I came to believe that the only label that has any validity is one a person applies to their own forehead, and I came to understand that knowing someone carries a label does not mean that their definition of the label agrees with my definition of it.

Sometimes that label looks wrong to me, but it is not my business to judge this. It may confuse me to see a slave spank her Master, but they know their definitions and I only need to clarify things if I am asked to play with them.

It may confuse me to watch a "straight" guy serve another man sexually, but the fact he may be doing so does not mean his "label" is wrong, it just means I do not fully understand his definitions.

Very dear Lesbian friends have "made" me understand that the definition of their labels may not match Webster's definitions, to my beautiful great joy.

Freely consenting adults doing what Pleases them with other freely consenting adults is what I think is right, whether in BD/SM, in work, in politics, or in relationships.

_____________________________

As always, your mileage may vary!

vield

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