RE: Sissies' Acceptance Problem

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iwearpanties -> RE: Sissies' Acceptance Problem (12/15/2007 12:52:31 PM)
but would you say they go together humiliation and embarressmant ????/

Reigna -> RE: Sissies' Acceptance Problem (12/15/2007 1:19:39 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyHugs Dominance to me, is to not force obedience, trust, service, submission and the like. It is more of a gentle request rather than clubbing over the head using 'force' and or 'humiliation' as a tool. If I need to 'force' someone to submit to me--that is the time I hang up my whips. Humiliation isn't everyone's cup of tea, that's for sure. And what one person finds deliciously humilating, another finds just weird or even squicky. But look at it this way: Some people would think you were a big ol' meanie and perhaps even mentally unstable because you have whips and apparently use them on people. I have whips AND humiliation in my bag o' tricks. That I enjoy using them is just part of my funky charm. [;)] In this forum there's another active thread right now specifically about humiliation. Good stuff there.

Reigna -> RE: Sissies' Acceptance Problem (12/15/2007 1:20:56 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: iwearpanties but would you say they go together humiliation and embarressmant ????/ I consider embarassment a milder degree and somewhat different flavor of humiliation.

mimkyodar -> RE: Sissies' Acceptance Problem (12/15/2007 2:01:50 PM)
Not exactly. I mean, say a dominant forced me to (being crass here, but im only 20 so sue me) hook up with someone i hated. Simple as that. It's not humiliating, doubly so if in public, but, and here's the key, it's embarrassing for me personally. Don't know if that helps, but that's this sub, two cents worth. (Even though we abolished 2 cents back in 92)

LotusSong -> RE: Sissies' Acceptance Problem (12/15/2007 3:52:53 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: iwearpanties but would you say they go together humiliation and embarressmant ????/ I think embarrassment.is a more light hearted endeavor. We both smile at the same time. [:D] We dabbled in humiliation once at the very start of our relationship and of course you try everything at east once. It was a well thought out session. Everything was laid out and approved before we began. I always ran my "script" to him before hand so he knew were I was going with it all. Well, like Lady Hug's, it was a "good one". When I looked into his eyes, I could see he was a bit unsettled which was what unsettled me. He liked the fact that I took the effort to do this for him.. I enjoyed the planning and the execution of said scene. What I didn't like was the end result- the look of he being rather lost in his eyes, disbelieving he could have had that done to him even though he knew what was coming. It was a rush for him while it was happening, but the aftermath is what was unexpected. So I approached it from more of an "embarrassment" goal. Humiliation-light per say and that worked. So I think embarrassment and humiliation are two different animals.

LadyHugs -> RE: Sissies' Acceptance Problem (12/15/2007 4:17:16 PM)
Dear iwearpanties, Ladies and Gentlemen; To me, embarrassment is a 'oops' and or a 'mistake' --Something briefly done and rarely experienced, other than a 'oops' and or a 'mistake.' Humiliation is on going, and more than a mistake--its tearing someone's self esteem to shreds and no intentions of rebuilding and or being positive. Just some thoughts. Respectfully submitted for consideration, Lady Hugs

Boondoggle -> RE: Sissies' Acceptance Problem (12/15/2007 5:54:49 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyHugs Dear iwearpanties, Ladies and Gentlemen; To me, embarrassment is a 'oops' and or a 'mistake' --Something briefly done and rarely experienced, other than a 'oops' and or a 'mistake.' Humiliation is on going, and more than a mistake--its tearing someone's self esteem to shreds and no intentions of rebuilding and or being positive. Just some thoughts. Respectfully submitted for consideration, Lady Hugs Lady Hugs, What you describe is what I call emotional abuse, and I can assure you that is not what I mean by humiliation. I think that in some sense, it's closely related to role-play. For most people who enjoy humiliation (myself included), but certainly not all, being called a 'slut' by a dominant partner is humiliating and exciting. When a Domina calls me a slut, I don't think she's actually making a judgment on my sexual promiscuity, but rather, using it as a form of verbal humiliation. Humiliation is different for everyone. There are some who would abhor being called a slut for whatever reason, but may love to be humiliated in other manners. There are certain insecurities I have that I don't enjoy being humiliated about. There are other things about which I'm not okay being humiliated except by someone I'm very close to. There are certain times when a mood that isn't conducive to humiliation, or certain forms of humiliation. Humiliation doesn't have to be an all out attack on someones psyche. It can be playful teasing taken just a little further than would normally be comfortable. It can be demeaning, yet loving pet names. It can be criticizing someone for something you both know isn't true. It can be criticizing someone for something you both know is true, but that the sub is secure about and with which the sub enjoys being humiliated. And by no means does it have to exclude any sort of positivity. Positive comments can be mixed in, eg. 'It makes me so hot to see you dressed like a slut.' There can also be reassurance after the fact, especially if something was touched on that probably shouldn't have been. I'm guessing that there is a middle ground into which you have ventured, but haven't thought of as humiliation, because, by your definition, it isn't. I think that's where the discrepancies arise. And then there are people who enjoy having their self-esteem attacked with ruthless abandon. I'm not one of them, so I can't explain the appeal as I haven't the slightest clue. Ben

ShaktiSama -> RE: Sissies' Acceptance Problem (12/15/2007 5:55:27 PM)
I agree that the thread is a little difficult to follow! I realize this may be just a repeat post of a point that someone else has already made, but I can certainly explain why I as a domme have a bit of a problem with "sissies"--a problem which I don't have with drag queens and ordinary t-girls who may play domme or sub in their female persona. The problem, basically, is that I dislike a sissy's attitude toward the feminine gender. I think, at some level, that a sissy expresses loathing or disgust with femininity by assuming a feminine state only under threat, and receiving it as "humiliation". They feel they are being diminished or lessened by becoming female or feminized. This attitude raises my hackles immediately. Often men who identify as "sissies" want to be victims. And to them, a victim has to be female. They don't take on a feminine role to empower themselves or even just to express themselves. I have worked with t-girls of both the domme and sub persuasions who were not sissies--they simply had a need and a desire to manifest a female persona. By putting on the heels, lingerie, make-up, stockings, by making themselves smooth, painting their fingernails, etc--they were expressing admiration for women and a self-motivated desire to become one. Even when submitting to me personally, they would be humbling themselves to a real woman--in the hierarchy of femininity, I was a superior because I was actually born with the ovaries. [:D] The difference between this kind of approach and a person who wants me to "feminize" him to turn him into something loathesome? Is pretty much night and day. I am ok with the former; I am profoundly uncomfortable with the latter. Not that I don't think that sissies and the dominants who love them have a right to be happy--it's just not for me. I'm one of those Turrible FemiNazi types; if you're going to feminize, I want you to become a woman I respect. Domme or sub! [8D]

LotusSong -> RE: Sissies' Acceptance Problem (12/15/2007 6:25:08 PM)
LadyHugs, The best example of a "humiliation" scene was when Slave and I were at the Ren Fair. Of course there are buxom ladies just about falling out of their costumes. While he was walking beside me, I noticed one approaching. Slave is a bonafied boob man and I know he was ogling yet doing it as to not be obvious. After the conversation fell silent..I simply said "Are we now the local boob inspector?" without even looking at him.. the silence was deafening and when I looked over- he was red as a beet and smiling from ear to ear... as was MY grin [:D] Was he humiliated? Nah.. just unremorsefully embarrassed

iwearpanties -> RE: Sissies' Acceptance Problem (12/15/2007 10:08:43 PM)
after reading the past few post or pages i can see and feel the need for our type of sub just is wanted or looked for not all so called (sissies ) seek what many of you write about how ever i know there are quite a few more who do seek the topping form the bottom and what not .. so i guess were just a coin flip away form being sweept a side or under the door matt .. maybe im being little hard on my self but pulling away form the D/s scene i guess is some thing too think and look at for the 2008 yr

LadyHugs -> RE: Sissies' Acceptance Problem (12/15/2007 11:52:26 PM)
Dear iwearpanties, Ladies and Gentlemen; I personally feel that we, in a general sense; are our own harsh "Master" as we, in general sense--blame ourselves (in general terms) when something doesn't happen the way we wish/dream/hope/pray/believe it to happen. It is very easy to give up on dreams. I can attest to that personally but, that is due to being subjected to the times of my life and how cruel some individuals have to be, in order to look good and be controlling--when in fact they are insecure, bullies and intended on wrecking people mentally, spiritually and emotionally along the way to their glory, name recognition and leadership positions. I choose to be a kind person. I had to tolerate bullies and cruel people but, where I separated myself was when I refused to become one also--my leadership skills did not require me to become an royal rear ended person. This does not mean I am void of a temper and endless tolerance--but, that said--I know when someone is pushing my buttons and plucking my last nerve. That said--there is a really hard time for me to find that line between 'in role humiliation and or embarrassments--from those men who dress femme who do so as to 'top from the bottom' per se, as to deminish the power of a woman; which ShakiSama stated so well and cannot improve upon. There is no separation terms, e.g. Humiliation, force, etc. This is where there is no topical chance to weed between the gentle souls who dress femme and those who wish to use tactics which would be distasteful to those who desire to have submission from the heart and not from 'force' and or the use of 'force' and or 'threats.' The confusion will remain and those who might be good partners are caught up in this whirlpool of 'terms' and 'definitions.' What appears to me, taking it beyond the life of the thread per se; opening this dialog and wonderful and productive exchange--is that until there is a distinct line to separate those who enjoy the abusive style of submission verses those who gladly will dress feminine per the desires of the Dominant--terms like 'force,' 'humiliation,' 'threat' and such will be met with negativity. The question that must be resolved among the gentle aspects of dressing feminine is how to advance and re-coin 'trigger' phrases without loosing the value of what one seeks. With so many women still having to struggle within a male dominanted lifestyle; any 'pot shots' at the Dominant woman are noticed. Women are still dealing with a double-standard in so many respects, at least in my part of the community. In this, I think is also part of a big problem--One, that men in general fail to see the larger picture of how the style of Domination may give flawed appearances as to how a Dominant comes to their 'power.' The general question will be --is this style negative and or demeaning and will others be embarrassed to see it as the same standard as SSC and or RACK; and or abusive, bully tactics and or the like. Or, will this be a tolerated standard but, not including because it continues to appear lacking in a non-threatening form of submission and or obedience? Then, you get into the Female Dominant peer structure --it gets just as harsh as any male Dominant peer group; where appearances, perception, assumptions and such happens. The open-ended question will remain -- who is really the Dominant--the natural born woman who is Dominant or the man who wears the feminine garb and tries to be woman, for a salad bar of choices and or degrees of dressing feminine and or the 'intentions' behind it all. For me, I would like to see those who are into femme garb and or dressing with the intent of flattering a woman; to find a different series of terms which would separate from the 'force' and or 'humiliation' and or the 'threat' factor. It really must come from those men who dress in female frocks and or garments to perhaps-- 're-invent' their approaches if they are not wishing to be under the 'generalized' umbrella. For my personal experiences, the major factor has been the 'attitude' as well as 'behavior.' It is a very small percentage of men who define themselves as sissies and or cross-dressers who really serve and willingly so--as well as getting out of their garments to be subjected to a flogging, canes and things. A lot of men who have come to gatherings, identified as 'sissy sorts' have been unwilling to help and just wish an audience to applaud their appearances and support the fetish side of it all. Others have a 'set script' of how things must go--So, its these sorts that must be separated from the likes of you, iweardiapers and those, like you, who have been so informative and open to these many questions and discussions. In Victorian times, those men and boys who were bad and in dire need of discipline, were subjected to what was known as 'peticoat' discipline--this wasn't a 'fun' fetish and or enjoyed. It was punishment in all senses of the word. Dressing in female attire with much detail as possible. This was to deter those boys and or men from their behavior--usually from disrespecting, harassing, tormenting and or hurting women and or girls. In some respects I see the original roots of cross-dressing and or forced feminization from the punishment aspects is now much like masochism; in which pleasure is recieved but, this has not been expressed thus far--and the mechanics of S&M from what I see--and S&M, there is not a necessary Dominant/submissive exchange--only a TOP/bottom exchange involved; to which pain is addictive as to maintain a feeling and or sensation. This stance in the perspective of S&M--there is an absence of obedience, submission that is extensive but; only conditional to the moment in the S&M scene. Once over, the equal powers return to the TOP and the BOTTOM. It is rare to find someone who will involve themselves in the M/s and or D/s relationship "and" the S&M in an intense manner--not impossible, just rare. Just some thoughts. Respectfully submitted for consideration, Lady Hugs

Boondoggle -> RE: Sissies' Acceptance Problem (12/16/2007 12:55:10 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ShaktiSama The problem, basically, is that I dislike a sissy's attitude toward the feminine gender. I think, at some level, that a sissy expresses loathing or disgust with femininity by assuming a feminine state only under threat, and receiving it as "humiliation". They feel they are being diminished or lessened by becoming female or feminized. This attitude raises my hackles immediately. ShaktiSama, I really respect your posts and like what you have to say a lot, but I'm finding myself offended by this statement. I'm definitely someone who would find being highly feminized humiliating. It has nothing at all to do with my level of respect for femininity. I'm very attracted, sexually, emotionally and intellectually to those who identify as feminine. Most, if not all, of my close friends in my adult life have been women, and not the 'butch' type. I tend to get along better with women than men. To be more precise, I tend to get along better with femininity than masculinity. I have the utmost respect for women, be they more feminine or masculine. I will probably be much more comfortable around women who are more the feminine type than at, say, a dyke biker bar, to use a stereotype. I'm not attracted, emotionally or intellectually, much less sexually, to masculinity. I think professional sports are inane. I don't like poker or cigars. There are countless other stereotypical masculine activities with which I want no part. I think being instructed ('forced') to dress up, or somehow portray myself as highly masculine, I would feel just as absurd as I would being feminized. However, there would be no sexual attraction, I'd just feel dumb. I think the difference lies in a few different elements. The first is that socially, it is highly taboo for a man to dress as a woman, and any who do are viewed as somehow weak. I don't like this fact. I think it's a terrible view point, but I, nonetheless, don't doubt that it has left some impression on my psyche. Another factor is that I am attracted to femininity, not masculinity. I find feminine traits (whatever that means) much more attractive, on many levels, than masculine traits. In many ways, I do seek to emulate and emphasize those traits. However, I am genetically a male and I have a rather masculine physique. While I can certainly be dressed up and made to look feminine, I think it would take very poor lighting for me to come close to passing as female. And the last factor (well, that comes to mind at this time of night) is that I identify as a male, not a female. While I am miles from a macho, testosterone laced masculine beefcake, I'm farther from a buxom, sensuous pin-up. As far as personality traits, I think I'm actually quite balanced in terms of femininity vs. masculinity. I also think, however that I tend to lean slightly more towards the masculine side because I grew up and was socialized, and still am, as a male. Thus, while femininity is something of which I am very fond, attracted to, and try to emulate on some levels, it isn't how I identify, and so being instructed ('forced') to submit to feminization isn't something I would choose to do on my own and runs counter (well, probably closer to orthogonal) to my self-image. It's also something I seriously doubt I can emulate well. Much of the same could be said about 'masculinization,' except that I'm not attracted to masculinity, and, as a male, there is no cultural taboo about being too masculine, or not feminine enough. While some who identify as sissies may have the views you suspect, I certainly don't think they are shared by everyone who finds the idea of feminization under another's control humiliating.

Jasmyn -> RE: Sissies' Acceptance Problem (12/16/2007 2:02:40 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ShaktiSama The problem, basically, is that I dislike a sissy's attitude toward the feminine gender. I think, at some level, that a sissy expresses loathing or disgust with femininity by assuming a feminine state only under threat, and receiving it as "humiliation". They feel they are being diminished or lessened by becoming female or feminized. This attitude raises my hackles immediately. Often men who identify as "sissies" want to be victims. And to them, a victim has to be female. They don't take on a feminine role to empower themselves or even just to express themselves. ShaktiSama ...... I tend not to think of the desire for sissification as being about the subject wanting to become 'female' or even 'feminine' ..but rather of not wanting to be 'masculine'... so it does concern me when people do force the role of 'female' upon them and then apply gender politics to them when they are content as milksops in their frills and bows. sissy n. milksop, mollycoddle, weakling, coward, milquetoast, softy, mama's boy, chicken (Slang), pantywaist (Slang), pansy (Slang). -- adj. cowardly, weak, timid, effeminate, pusillanimous, soft, unmanly, effete, chicken (Slang). ant. n. macho, he-man, buck, bull, jock (Slang) adj. manly, aggressive, tough, macho, red-blooded, plucky Sissification has, imo, very little to do with femininity and everything to do with masculinity. I do agree sissies can be victims in their sissyhood ... but at the expense of their manhood ... not at the expense of womanhood. ... Just some food for thought.

catleggs -> RE: Sissies' Acceptance Problem (12/16/2007 2:48:40 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Jasmyn ...... I tend not to think of the desire for sissification as being about the subject wanting to become 'female' or even 'feminine' ..but rather to not wanting to be 'masculine'... so it does concern me when people do force the role of 'female' upon them and then apply gender politics to them when they are content as milksops in their frills and bows. sissy n. milksop, mollycoddle, weakling, coward, milquetoast, softy, mama's boy, chicken (Slang), pantywaist (Slang), pansy (Slang). -- adj. cowardly, weak, timid, effeminate, pusillanimous, soft, unmanly, effete, chicken (Slang). ant. n. macho, he-man, buck, bull, jock (Slang) adj. manly, aggressive, tough, macho, red-blooded, plucky Sissification has, imo, very little to do with femininity and everything to do with masculinity. I do agree sissies can be victims in their sissyhood ... but at the expense of their manhood ... not at the expense of womanhood. ... Just some food for thought. Definately hit the nail on the head with this post, Jasmyn!

Jasmyn -> RE: Sissies' Acceptance Problem (12/16/2007 3:53:25 AM)
Thanks Cat ...

ShaktiSama -> RE: Sissies' Acceptance Problem (12/16/2007 8:05:54 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Boondoggle The first is that socially, it is highly taboo for a man to dress as a woman, and any who do are viewed as somehow weak. I don't like this fact. I think it's a terrible view point, but I, nonetheless, don't doubt that it has left some impression on my psyche. This was a very long post, but I'll boil it down to this: this "impression left on your psyche" was made by societal values which I loathe. And I am not interested in insulting myself and my gender by "forcing" femininity on someone who considers himself "lowered" or "debased" by it. Hence I am friendly and willing to work with a t-girl/drag queen who dresses himself up to become something which is sexier/better/more beautiful/more true to himself--or even just different and thus erotic! But I am not willing to work with someone who thinks that becoming feminine is a punishment or a curse. There are other common BDSM activities which are also not my cup of tea for various reasons. I just thought I would contribute my personal thoughts to the thread, since the subject had come up. After all, I have a hard time "accepting" sissies and sissification myself. I don't expect my "insights" to change the rotation of the earth or alter anyone's kink, they are just my personal thoughts and feelings on the matter. Sorry to give offense. Edit: To Jasmyn: Don't get me wrong, I am aware that men in our society are also the victims of masculine gender roles. This is especially true if they cannot assume all the burdens that society places on masculinity, including exerting dominance and control. However, let's not go overboard. The situation is still not even close to equitable in terms of power or positive definition to the female. How many submissive women do you know who entertain "humiliating" fantasies of being forced to dress and behave like a man? Do you see what I'm saying here? I hope so. Masculinity as a concept has no meaning at all unless feminity is defined: all gender definitions form a yin/yang in which each moves to fill the spaces left empty by another. As a female, I do not enjoy participating in any activity which defines my own gender negatively. Just by making feminity negative, I automatically make the masculine gender positive and imply that it is superior. And as a woman, if I have to take away someone's "maleness" and make him female to exercise power and control? I end up feeling that the real "victim" of the scene is me--and all women. Weird, I know. What can I say, I'm a twisted individual. [:D]

LotusSong -> RE: Sissies' Acceptance Problem (12/16/2007 9:10:45 AM)
Wow..well said, ShaktiSama!

ShaktiSama -> RE: Sissies' Acceptance Problem (12/16/2007 5:12:44 PM)
Thanks. [8D] I try to articulate these things as well as I can. Sometimes it's hard to say where the line is drawn for me between good/not good in BDSM, but this is one of those little things that I puzzled out over time.

catleggs -> RE: Sissies' Acceptance Problem (12/17/2007 12:10:52 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ShaktiSama I don't expect my "insights" to change the rotation of the earth or alter anyone's kink, they are just my personal thoughts and feelings on the matter. Very profound words. They warrented highlighting.

iwearpanties -> RE: Sissies' Acceptance Problem (12/17/2007 3:09:33 AM)
Ladies < MIstress'es and sissy's or panty boys it appears that most dont like or play these type or session or roleplays haveing a male sub as a panty boi my question now is well you may have already answered it but say you have a sub male whos not into nor would or dosent seek too wear panties or bras .. would you at some time or point put him in them just to see the reactions or how the sub would handle this ??????? as for humilioation or embrassments for a cd or panty boi exposeing them to other Mistress"es and or other Males and or Dom Males . im sure this is they type of humiliation play many might seek or want too try or perhaps they have a secret want too ?

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