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RE: Zogby: 52% of Americans support Iran strike - 11/2/2007 10:37:50 AM   
Lordandmaster


Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline 		And exactly how?  Anything worth hitting is underground.  The only way to accomplish what you're talking about is with a full-scale land invasion, and those haven't been going too well for us lately.  Tell me, which divisions are you going to send to Iran?

Sure, you can drop a few bombs and light up the sky and maybe even hold a press conference for CNN declaring that you've won the war, and the truth is that you won't have done jackshit--except maybe convince more teenage boys to become martyrs.

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Maybe I’m reading your post wrong Lordandmaster. If the United States decided to take out all nuclear facilities in Iran and was serious about it…. and did not give a damn about civilian casualties…they could do it and no country on this earth could stop us.

(in reply to kdsub)
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RE: Zogby: 52% of Americans support Iran strike - 11/2/2007 10:55:21 AM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		Here is how… the US already has low yield nuclear tipped penetration bombs… developed for underground bunkers after the problems during the Iraqi wars… even if the facility was not completely destroyed the area would be uninhabitable.

There was a debate whether congress should be consulted before such weapons were used.

Like I said we would need to be serious… even without penetration bombs a few H-bombs on the same area would be enough to take out any underground facility.

That type of construction is massive and cannot be hidden so we would know exactly where to hit.

I hope it never happens but it is well within out capabilities.

(in reply to Lordandmaster)
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RE: Zogby: 52% of Americans support Iran strike - 11/2/2007 11:04:42 AM   
farglebargle


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From: Albany, NY
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quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

I say the U.S. sit this one out.
Let the European Union deal with Iran.


Er...popeye....it is the US that has the problem with Iran, not the European Union.



Its israel that has a problem with Iran because they want to be king of the hill with their nukes and control the whole region with terror not the us. Oh wait, yeh I guess the us would have a problem with an oil nation capable of defending itself with nukes.



You want to allow a fundamentalist government like Iran to have nuclear weapons? Are you out of your mind? Do you have any idea the type of arms race that is going to spark?


Actually, Israel started the Nuclear Arms Race in the mideast. Aren't THEY the only ones holding now, and everyone is RACING to catch up?

Of course, at this point, all any Iranian Scientist would be guilty of is "Thoughtcrime", so the discussion is moot.



_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to cyberdude611)
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RE: Zogby: 52% of Americans support Iran strike - 11/2/2007 11:39:07 AM   
kdsub


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Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		farglebargle...unless I am mistaken no one has any proof that Israel has nuclear weapons. So haw can you say with certainty that they started the arms race?

If they do please show me the proof.

Butch

(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: Zogby: 52% of Americans support Iran strike - 11/2/2007 12:01:52 PM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline 		http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB189/index.htm



_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: Zogby: 52% of Americans support Iran strike - 11/2/2007 12:41:27 PM   
kdsub


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Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		That is not proof...they choose not to comment one way or another on their possession of such weapons.

There is no definitive proof they have them just supposition.

Now don’t get me wrong I do believe they have them I just have no proof nor does anyone else.

Butch

(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: Zogby: 52% of Americans support Iran strike - 11/2/2007 12:57:29 PM   
Real0ne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

That is not proof...they choose not to comment one way or another on their possession of such weapons.

There is no definitive proof they have them just supposition.

Now don’t get me wrong I do believe they have them I just have no proof nor does anyone else.

Butch



Weapons of Mass Destruction (WMD)

IAEA chief says Israel has nuclear capability

PLA Daily 2004-02-27

VIENNA, Feb. 26 (Xinhuanet) -- Mohamed ElBaradei, chief of the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA), said on Wednesday that Israel has nuclear capability, but the extent is a mystery.

"I know that it's a developed program, and Israel does not deny that it has nuclear capability, but the size of the program, the extent of its development, really I can't know ElBaradei said in an interview broadcast on Wednesday.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/library/news/israel/israel-040227-pla-daily01.htm



2. In a documentary, Israeli Foreign Minister Shimon Peres goes further than any other Israeli official in confirming that Israel has nuclear capability and discloses for the first time details about Israel's acquisition of nuclear weapons.

2. France Cooperated with Israel in Launching Israel's Nuclear Program At a time of rising tensions in the Middle East, Israel's broadcasting media aired a television documentary in November in which Israeli Foreign Minister Shimon Peres discloses for the first time details about Israel's acquisition of nuclear weapons. In the documentary, Peres goes further than any other Israeli official in confirming that the country has nuclear capability. Along with French officials, Peres gives details about cooperation between Israel and France in launching Israel's nuclear program. The showing of the film may be a sign that the Israeli government is beginning to relax its rule of absolute silence on its nuclear program. Mordechai Vanunu is still serving an 18-year sentence in jail for revealing in 1986 that Israel had a nuclear program and more than 100 warheads.

http://www.wagingpeace.org/articles/2002/01/00_top-five-secrets.htm



seems to be pretty common knowledge in certain circles :)






_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: Zogby: 52% of Americans support Iran strike - 11/2/2007 2:28:51 PM   
Lordandmaster


Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline 		Right, and kdsub from Collarme knows exactly where to hit.  I mean, we've NEVER bombed the wrong installation before...

I wonder, why haven't they snatched you up to serve on the Joint Chiefs of Staff?

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

That type of construction is massive and cannot be hidden so we would know exactly where to hit.

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: Zogby: 52% of Americans support Iran strike - 11/2/2007 3:24:45 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		Hell if we could blowup all of Russia I think I could hit Iran... all of Iran. It's not going to happen ... I hope...

Butch

(in reply to Lordandmaster)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: Zogby: 52% of Americans support Iran strike - 11/2/2007 6:43:51 PM   
Politesub53


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Joined: 5/7/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

That is not proof...they choose not to comment one way or another on their possession of such weapons.

There is no definitive proof they have them just supposition.

Now don’t get me wrong I do believe they have them I just have no proof nor does anyone else.

Butch


Everyone knows they have the bomb, why would they kidnap Vanunu from Italy, using a honeytrap if i recall rightly, and then keep him locked up for almost 20 years. The link is Peres admitting Israel has the bomb

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2001/12/23/wnuke23.xml

(in reply to kdsub)
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RE: Zogby: 52% of Americans support Iran strike - 11/2/2007 8:19:26 PM   
farglebargle


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From: Albany, NY
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

That is not proof...


It's way more proof than anyone's got against Iran ( or Iraq for that matter. )

So if the Iraq Intel was "Good Enough", why isn't the Israel Intel?

And then there is Mordechai Vanunu -- an Israeli former nuclear technician who revealed details of Israel's nuclear weapons programme to the British press in 1986. He was subsequently abducted in Rome by Israeli Mossad agents and smuggled to Israel, where he was tried in secret and convicted of treason.



< Message edited by farglebargle -- 11/2/2007 8:21:30 PM >

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 51
RE: Zogby: 52% of Americans support Iran strike - 11/2/2007 8:42:35 PM   
kdsub


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Joined: 8/16/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

That is not proof...


It's way more proof than anyone's got against Iran ( or Iraq for that matter. )

So if the Iraq Intel was "Good Enough", why isn't the Israel Intel?

And then there is Mordechai Vanunu -- an Israeli former nuclear technician who revealed details of Israel's nuclear weapons programme to the British press in 1986. He was subsequently abducted in Rome by Israeli Mossad agents and smuggled to Israel, where he was tried in secret and convicted of treason.


I didn’t say it was or wasn’t… you just said Israel started the nuclear arms race and everyone is trying to catch up.

I just say there is no absolute proof of either having nuclear weapons. 

If the Arab world knows that Israel has the bomb it sure has not been a deterrent to war.

I believe Iran’s goal is not a deterrent to Israel but to the United States. They know they have nothing to fear from Israel but they do from us. They can never compete militarily with us so their only hope to dominate the region is to be a nuclear power.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 11/2/2007 8:58:58 PM >

(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: Zogby: 52% of Americans support Iran strike - 11/2/2007 9:07:05 PM   
Real0ne


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having nukes isnt a detewrant to war just nuclear war.  Thats why we have the e4 doomsady plane


_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: Zogby: 52% of Americans support Iran strike - 11/2/2007 9:23:27 PM   
kdsub


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Joined: 8/16/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne



having nukes isnt a detewrant to war just nuclear war.  Thats why we have the e4 doomsady plane



I'm undecided on that point...If I was a small country surrounded by enemies…and I was just days away from being annihilated and most likely exterminated…I would use any weapon I had… nuclear bombs included. That is Israel’s predicament and I believe they would do just that.

I believe all thinking governments understand this and that would be a deterrent to total war.

If Iran had a bomb and we knew it we would not invade their country because we know they would use it…either against our army or against Israel. So it would be a deterrent to any aggression.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 11/2/2007 9:24:55 PM >

(in reply to Real0ne)
Profile   Post #: 54
RE: Zogby: 52% of Americans support Iran strike - 11/2/2007 9:25:05 PM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline
quote:


If the Arab world knows that Israel has the bomb it sure has not been a deterrent to war.


It's been, what? 40 years since Israel's neighbors tried to invade?

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 55
RE: Zogby: 52% of Americans support Iran strike - 11/2/2007 9:30:16 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		Not all but some of those governments have been organizing and supporting private armies and there has been a continual state of war for these very 40 years.
They are determined not to win a negotiating position but to annihilate Israel.

(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 56
RE: Zogby: 52% of Americans support Iran strike - 11/2/2007 9:45:41 PM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline 		"hey are determined not to win a negotiating position but to annihilate Israel."

Do you mean:
a) "Israel, the Ideal"
b) "Israel, The State"
or (c) "The Government of The State of Israel".

Because, I would agree, that (C) THE GOVERNMENT OF THE STATE OF ISRAEL MUST BE REMOVED AND REPLACED or nothing's going to meaningfully change.

Hey, I feel the same way about the Presidential Dictatorship in place since Lincoln in the US...

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 57
RE: Zogby: 52% of Americans support Iran strike - 11/2/2007 10:25:41 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		We agree on that...Israel’s position will never lead to peace. But I’m afraid the Palestinian government and its supporters in the Arab world need to be replaced as well before there can be true and meaningful peace in the region.

I do believe the people on both sides are ready for peace if they can get past their pride and hate.

Butch

(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 58
RE: Zogby: 52% of Americans support Iran strike - 11/3/2007 3:43:29 PM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

Because, I would agree, that (C) THE GOVERNMENT OF THE STATE OF ISRAEL MUST BE REMOVED AND REPLACED or nothing's going to meaningfully change.

Hey, I feel the same way about the Presidential Dictatorship in place since Lincoln in the US...


They are the spittin image of us imo, just not as covert about it as we are here.


_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 59
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