RE: Pure/Natural subs

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Fidelity -> RE: Pure/Natural subs (8/4/2005 12:05:23 PM)
This is one of those things that are basically impossible to prove genetically. I would say that nurture plays a stronger role than nature, overall.

happypervert -> RE: Pure/Natural subs (8/4/2005 12:24:41 PM)
quote: is there any way to make one clear distinction between people who were "born" with the desires vs. those that learned about BDSM and decided it would be "fun" but really could take it or leave it? From a practical standpoint, I'd say the answer is "no" when you're in the early stages of dating and starting a relationship because I think there is an incentive to exaggerate (or lie) in order to seem desirable as a mate or as a form of puffing up one's bdsm-ness. So although your description is perfectly clear, I don't believe there is a surefire way of separating the folks who were actually born with the desires from those who would claim they were. I suppose that shying away from newcomers would help because you can assume somebody who has been doing kinky stuff for years would be less likely to "decide one day they got bored with bdsm and wanted to move on", but that's the only idea I have.

AAkasha -> RE: Pure/Natural subs (8/4/2005 1:52:32 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: happypervert quote: is there any way to make one clear distinction between people who were "born" with the desires vs. those that learned about BDSM and decided it would be "fun" but really could take it or leave it? From a practical standpoint, I'd say the answer is "no" when you're in the early stages of dating and starting a relationship because I think there is an incentive to exaggerate (or lie) in order to seem desirable as a mate or as a form of puffing up one's bdsm-ness. So although your description is perfectly clear, I don't believe there is a surefire way of separating the folks who were actually born with the desires from those who would claim they were. I suppose that shying away from newcomers would help because you can assume somebody who has been doing kinky stuff for years would be less likely to "decide one day they got bored with bdsm and wanted to move on", but that's the only idea I have. I think you can tell if someone is just saying they were "born" with the desires but really weren't, if you spend time together. It's like being "in" on an inside joke. Those of us born "wired" this way interpret things a certain way, see "things" in the vanilla world that others don't. If I see a normal movie with someone, chances are most of the time another "hardwired" kinky person would notice the same innuendo, or have the same "kinky association" about something that another person wouldn't really notice unless it was pointed out to them. Other people will know what I'm talking about -- it's like you "get" each other on a different level. Akasha

EmeraldSlave2 -> RE: Pure/Natural subs (8/4/2005 4:42:00 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: AAkasha I think you can tell if someone is just saying they were "born" with the desires but really weren't, if you spend time together. It's like being "in" on an inside joke. Those of us born "wired" this way interpret things a certain way, see "things" in the vanilla world that others don't. If I see a normal movie with someone, chances are most of the time another "hardwired" kinky person would notice the same innuendo, or have the same "kinky association" about something that another person wouldn't really notice unless it was pointed out to them. Other people will know what I'm talking about -- it's like you "get" each other on a different level. Akasha I'd have to disagree with that simply because it's a sweeping generalization. For example, I consider myself to ALWAYS have been oriented as a slave, just as I have ALWAYS been oriented as a bisexual. This was always the relationship I envisioned for myself. However, in high school a boy brought in a fetish photography book to school. I was fascinated with it completely, but then moved on. It didn't occur to me that it MEANT something, and it didn't even really stimulate fantasies in me at all. I thought they were a cool new thing but didn't think anything of it other than that. It wasn't until I found out abuot bdsm though other avenues and got active in the scene that I was able to look back and see those things in that light. And again, personality is not the same as orientation. Many subs and doms have CONFLICTS when they try and get into an actual Ds relationship because they have to relearn new ways of relating, ways that do NOT feel natural to them.

KarbonCopy -> RE: Pure/Natural subs (8/4/2005 6:42:06 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: EmeraldSlave2 quote: ORIGINAL: AAkasha I think you can tell if someone is just saying they were "born" with the desires but really weren't, if you spend time together. It's like being "in" on an inside joke. Those of us born "wired" this way interpret things a certain way, see "things" in the vanilla world that others don't. If I see a normal movie with someone, chances are most of the time another "hardwired" kinky person would notice the same innuendo, or have the same "kinky association" about something that another person wouldn't really notice unless it was pointed out to them. Other people will know what I'm talking about -- it's like you "get" each other on a different level. Akasha I'd have to disagree with that simply because it's a sweeping generalization. For example, I consider myself to ALWAYS have been oriented as a slave, just as I have ALWAYS been oriented as a bisexual. This was always the relationship I envisioned for myself. However, in high school a boy brought in a fetish photography book to school. I was fascinated with it completely, but then moved on. It didn't occur to me that it MEANT something, and it didn't even really stimulate fantasies in me at all. I thought they were a cool new thing but didn't think anything of it other than that. It wasn't until I found out abuot bdsm though other avenues and got active in the scene that I was able to look back and see those things in that light. And again, personality is not the same as orientation. Many subs and doms have CONFLICTS when they try and get into an actual Ds relationship because they have to relearn new ways of relating, ways that do NOT feel natural to them. But what if not noticing it earlier on in life had something to do with the fact that your life wasnt closely attached to it at that age. With parents having kids, these kids will know more about it most likely, and therefore be more in touch with it at an early age, what took you a long time to realize will take less and less time. Hence the notion of seeing a new Generation.

EmeraldSlave2 -> RE: Pure/Natural subs (8/4/2005 7:32:01 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: KarbonCopy With parents having kids, these kids will know more about it most likely, and therefore be more in touch with it at an early age, what took you a long time to realize will take less and less time. Hence the notion of seeing a new Generation. It didn't take me longer to realize, it took me longer to actualize. And as Ive already said, yes I think the generations to come will be different than in the past in younger and younger people will be coming into it on a wide scale than before. But I don't think Aakashas generalizations are correct.

plantlady64 -> RE: Pure/Natural subs (8/5/2005 7:40:23 AM)
quote: However, in high school a boy brought in a fetish photography book to school. I was fascinated with it completely, but then moved on. It didn't occur to me that it MEANT something, and it didn't even really stimulate fantasies in me at all. I thought they were a cool new thing but didn't think anything of it other than that. Hello There, I also was exposed to fetish things and BDSM for years as I have someone I know that's been into it for a long time. It did not stir any desire for BDSM play or attentions in me at all. I do consider myself a naturally oriented sub now though. I taught Religious Education, served on PTA Chairs, Served at homeless shelters, soup kitchens, bulk food emergency food supply groups, Christmas in April projects, habitat for humanity events etc etc etc etc.... The list could take a few pages. I love to be in service to things that benefit others, make them more comfortable, or help them mentally. You could say it's always been my thing to serve others. I also was raised in a home where Dad was KING! Dinner was when Dad would be home, and of course he got the biggest and best portions of everything as he worked hard all day. The house needed to be clean, our faces needed to be washed, and Dads word was oath or action depending on what was said, without question. You never would defy Dad he was king. I also did all our housework for our family of five and all the cooking since I was 10. Not only was I doing everything, but also my Mom would nit pick everything to death till it was so perfect she couldn't find anything to point out. All of this conditioning in my life causes me to desire approval, want to be good, want attention, want to give up control, want to take care of my Masters home, our family's nutrition, fill all of my Masters desires, makes me want to nurture him, care for his body and mind, and feel honored when he praises me. In my vanilla relationships, even when I had everything I thought I wanted, eventually it got stagnant, and left me feeling like there's got to be something better than this. This isn't all life's supposed to be like is it? The day I first let a man that wanted to dominate me take charge it was like the light came on, the key fit the lock, and once the door opened I took it off the hinges, and sent it to the dump. It will never be shut again, it does not exist in my environment any longer. This lifestyle, from my self-discovery moment foreword is how I live and breathe daily. I have a driving desire to learn, play, serve, and be able to grow in the Old Guard practices my Master is training me under. You could say I've gone from 0 to 60 in less than two seconds, and the old me was left in the dust as this lifestyle whisked me away. I've heard others say they had the kinky thoughts, and for whatever reason didn't act on them for years for various reasons who also once experiencing it could never go back. Then there are the non-natural Dom/subs that like it, but could be in vanilla relationships if they were hot enough in other ways, those that only play a few times a year, those that use it for financial gain, those who take it very lightly, those that flirt at the edges but never dive in and really commit to scenes or let go fully, and those that use it to fill other voids but it's not a driving force in their hearts to fully give in to that part of their personality. Either the fear of having that much control or causing that type of pain mixed with pleasure, or (the flip side) fearing giving up your will and control to another human being for real, or accepting the gifts of the pleasure & pain holds them back. They start out at places where they have to condition their responses and change, on purpose their choices to be able to succeed and eventually find the comfort and freeing feelings others have from the first day they figured out who they were inside. Sorry for rambling, but I guess to me that's the difference. Sincerely, sub suzanne

darkinshadows -> RE: Pure/Natural subs (8/5/2005 8:16:08 AM)
You are doing the classic 'age' seperation IMO. You are what, 19 now? I am 35 and not in your 'generation' Now, my parents are not in the Ls. Never have been and I doubt, ever will be. I was not subjected to the Ls at an early age. All I have ever been subjected to is a loving family, great parents and a grandmother who taught me that I had the ability to acheive anything I wanted to grasp at. Yet I was aware of BDSM and all its possibilities from 15 and was involved as soon as legally possible. I really dont believe its what you are exposed to as children, but that a loving open environment helps allow you to make more 'self' choices. If your raised to believe in yourself and that you can acheive, without pressure, then you will. This goes for me and lots of my friends and people I know around my age. I have noticed that people in the USA feel more repressed than people seem to be in the UK and europe and even in australia - that probably has alot to do with the 'moral majority' and fundementalism within schools, governments etc... and its only recently that the 'younger generation' seem more able to express themselves - But in the UK, I can say that its not a new thing at all. Peace and Love

Mercnbeth -> RE: Pure/Natural subs (8/5/2005 8:20:51 AM)
quote: Are we going to be seeing a new generation of lifestylers? Uncorrupted by the vanilla world? this slave hopes so--but it sounds a bit utopian, doesn't it? the corruption of the vanilla world starts when the vanillas tell you that the scenes you enjoy are against the law and you are mentally ill to even be thinking about it. Ever read "1984"? this slave hopes yours is the generation that gets the DSM changed so that you aren't considered mentally ill, as well as the laws concerning what is consensually allowed in your bedroom. Perhaps then, Masters will be able to have their slaves walk down the street with them, leash in hand, somewhere other than Folsom.

AAkasha -> RE: Pure/Natural subs (8/5/2005 10:15:18 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: EmeraldSlave2 quote: ORIGINAL: KarbonCopy With parents having kids, these kids will know more about it most likely, and therefore be more in touch with it at an early age, what took you a long time to realize will take less and less time. Hence the notion of seeing a new Generation. It didn't take me longer to realize, it took me longer to actualize. And as Ive already said, yes I think the generations to come will be different than in the past in younger and younger people will be coming into it on a wide scale than before. But I don't think Aakashas generalizations are correct. In my examples I was talking about people who have already said they are BDSM wired and are "in" the lifestyle. I was addressing the point that certainly anyone could just say they were "born that way" and there's no way to really know. I think after some years of being self aware, people "see" things a little differently than non-wired people. Akasha

KarbonCopy -> RE: Pure/Natural subs (8/5/2005 10:21:49 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth quote: Are we going to be seeing a new generation of lifestylers? Uncorrupted by the vanilla world? this slave hopes so--but it sounds a bit utopian, doesn't it? the corruption of the vanilla world starts when the vanillas tell you that the scenes you enjoy are against the law and you are mentally ill to even be thinking about it. Ever read "1984"? this slave hopes yours is the generation that gets the DSM changed so that you aren't considered mentally ill, as well as the laws concerning what is consensually allowed in your bedroom. Perhaps then, Masters will be able to have their slaves walk down the street with them, leash in hand, somewhere other than Folsom. Wouldnt having a knky utopian society be absolutely beautiful ^_^ This problem with psychologists and the like, saying that my lifestyle is a product of a mental desease pisses me off. I do hope that as my generation comes into power, we will be able to get rid of that stupid theory.

MsIncognito -> RE: Pure/Natural subs (8/5/2005 11:24:35 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: dark~angel I really dont believe its what you are exposed to as children, but that a loving open environment helps allow you to make more 'self' choices. If your raised to believe in yourself and that you can acheive, without pressure, then you will. That pretty much sums up my feelings.

nella -> RE: Pure/Natural subs (8/5/2005 12:56:07 PM)
Me and my Dom, even if we often see, kinky stuff in normal movies for example, often it are different things that gives one the assosiations, we dont react to the same things.

doubleLeo -> RE: Pure/Natural subs (8/5/2005 11:38:55 PM)
"It's something that will become more and more distracting the longer I ignore it, and if ignored long enough, I would be so frustrated that I'd want to seek it elsewhere. Someone needs to understand this when getting into a relationship with me because it's core to my desires. I will not grow out of it. My partner must know that I am serious when I say that if you deny me this, I will want to seek it elsewhere. I will not "give it up" -- it's too much a part of my wiring. " dlsays: yes, I have often considered the idea of "natural" as the idea of hardwiring.. "Someone who wasn't born with the desires doesn't understand that sometimes the desires just hit -- I don't pick days to want to do it. I miss it when it's not available, and it makes me frustrated if I have to wait. " dL says: LOL did I just write that????? Someone without that same kind of wiring could just as easily say to me, "Oh, get over it. It's not that big of a deal." Akasha " dLsays :right on the money

doubleLeo -> RE: Pure/Natural subs (8/5/2005 11:42:21 PM)
" quote: Those born with these desires, would most likely search for this lifestyle immediately when they start thinking about relationships." dL: one would think so, but not necessarily. I mean, think about it, if you are naturally submissive, your first desire might not be to seek it out, rather wonder why its not being adressed. dL

MadameDahlia -> RE: Pure/Natural subs (8/6/2005 2:30:12 AM)
In my case nature kicked nurture's arse. I would hole myself up in my room and Alien Barbie would send out her Amazon-like seductress hoards. They would bring back Earth men for her amusement. Because sex wasn't something I understood when I was still playing with dolls Barbie's friends would undress the men... tie them up... and bring them to her. She'd pick her favorites and let the crew have the rest of them. Suffice to say - no one showed me how to do this. And no one showed me how to tie up the neighbor boy to a chair with Nintendo controllers. It just felt good... it felt right. So did watching the look on his face when I told him I was going to go make a sandwich. I didn't leave him there... But I liked teasing him. Later on a friend of mine introduced me to the terms. She asked why she never saw me dating. I thought I'd freak her out and so I told her that I'd rather not talk about it. She was one of the only people I'd been getting to know at the time (early high school - and Yes! I am somewhat of a reclusive introvert). She pestered... and pestered... And I finally told her that I wanted to pull people over my knees and spank them more often than I wanted to hold their hand. She started to laugh and I thought I'd caused her to lose her sanity. But she shrugged and murmured, "Sounds like you're just a natural." So to make a long story short... if that's what this "natural" business is all about then yes. Count me in.

nella -> RE: Pure/Natural subs (8/6/2005 4:55:58 AM)
For me, i think the erlist indication of a submissive side was my early girlhood daydreams, the way i remember it, an uncle i never met showed up whit his dauther, a poiled brath, i had to live whit him for a while and he moved into our home, once that was done my daydream made the new cosin trow me out of my room and claim it for herself and took most of my things, and i was forced to be her servant. i could daydream this for houers, or play it out whit my dolls. Later, when a bit older i begune to read books where pepole had sex, forced or painful sex was always what got me hot. So i think it has been in me always.

MtPleasantsubAsh -> RE: Pure/Natural subs (8/6/2005 1:36:38 PM)
ermmm...corrupted by the vanilla life? did i miss something? I think thatthe vanilla life isn't some disease or something you don't want to get too close to...BDSM is a lifestlye, as well as vanilla...it's just a choice, a preference...mostly.. I've know people born into the BDSM life..who yearn to have a vanilla one, or to have grown up in one..i think it's something that goes both ways...and not something to be 'contaminated' with. am i wrong?

nella -> RE: Pure/Natural subs (8/6/2005 2:51:39 PM)
can pepole grow up in the BDSM lifestyle? i mean seeing your parents have such a lifestyle can not be said as growing up in it, and if you take part when a child, is not that child molesting?

KarbonCopy -> RE: Pure/Natural subs (8/6/2005 3:41:16 PM)
Lol, there was no taking part, and my mom was a single parent. But I was educated in that side of sex, the books we had around, all the stuff my mom DIDNT hide from me, her going to "Special" parties etc. It was normal, it was how things were.

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