Vulnerability and submission in public play (Full Version)

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CdnExplorer -> Vulnerability and submission in public play (11/2/2007 3:17:43 PM)

A topic came up on a local forum today that I'd like to bring here to see what a wider audience has to say. It all stems from an incident at a recent party, where a dominant took their sub to a place that had been psychologically difficult. (names and specific details omitted to protect the innocent and not so innocent). It ended up being a great and very rewarding scene, but afterwards a third party said some things to the submissive that really hurt.

When we submit we experience a raw, almost animal state. With help from our dominant we strip away our social masks and become vulnerable to them in a way that most people never get to see. That takes trust, but it also builds trust. The activity itself seems most often to be secondary to this vulnerability, and the reasons for doing it. What happened at this party was another person used that vulnerability in a very personal way, labeling the submissive and asking them to perform similar acts on them. Essentially taking the vulnerability created during the scene and using it to their own advantage. I would expect that this was more a result of the other person misinterpreting what they saw rather than any malice.

So then...questions.
Have you ever felt let down after a scene because of how observers treated you afterwards?
As a Dom/me how can you maximize vulnerability will decreasing these risks?
As a submissive how can you cope with the misinterpretation and misuse of your vulnerability / trust by others?



southernhart -> RE: Vulnerability and submission in public play (11/2/2007 4:51:22 PM)

That has never happened to me. Was the sub approached that way because she submits to more than one Master and they have witnessed this?

i have only one Master and no one would dare disrespect him or me that way. We enjoy what we do in public. We don't do scenes we just live this way and everyone is happy for us as we are for them.



CdnExplorer -> RE: Vulnerability and submission in public play (11/2/2007 6:52:12 PM)

Nope, the sub had / served only one dominant, though I don't believe it was on the same level as collared slave. Regardless this person had only consented to submit to one person. I had a similar take on it...people wouldn't dare interrupt a scene unless asked to do so by the dominant in charge. Why then would you use the after effects of the scene in a similar way, without being invited?



RRafe -> RE: Vulnerability and submission in public play (11/2/2007 10:54:57 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: CdnExplorer

Nope, the sub had / served only one dominant, though I don't believe it was on the same level as collared slave. Regardless this person had only consented to submit to one person. I had a similar take on it...people wouldn't dare interrupt a scene unless asked to do so by the dominant in charge. Why then would you use the after effects of the scene in a similar way, without being invited?


I used to scene in public all the time at a local club.

I was well known for keeping an eye on my dates-people knew better than to pull any funny business. Unless they were invited to.



CdnExplorer -> RE: Vulnerability and submission in public play (11/3/2007 9:33:38 AM)

That was my main suggestion really, that the dominant keep an eye on the sub until they've recovered psychologically enough to stand up for themselves. Incidentally that was the only idea I had as a submissive, was to tell someone their attention wasn't welcome...but that's easier said than done if you've been mind fucked.



tulitukka -> RE: Vulnerability and submission in public play (11/3/2007 11:03:25 AM)

Afterwards, I might be sorry for the person who brought up my anger. As a dominant I am very protective about my submissive. If somebody did that to her, that somebody would receive such a telling off that it would take a long while for him to recover. I would do that while making sure my submissive feels safe and secure in my care. If I was unsure initially whether the approach was unwanted by my submissive or not, I would ask her. I also would lose all respect to the person who did such a thing.

To me it sounds like the dom did not do the aftercare of the submissive properly. Doing intense and difficult thing for the first time is something. Doing that with audience most likely heightens the vulnerability and need for aftercare. At least the dom should have been with the sub and either given a go ahead to the party that approached, or kicked him out and loud.



CdnExplorer -> RE: Vulnerability and submission in public play (11/3/2007 11:21:07 AM)

*nods*

The dominant wasn't terribly pleased about what had happened, and actually started the topic to make people a little more aware of the issue. The hard part of it was that as far as I'm aware the third party in question is well known to them, and my impression is that they never thought they might act this way. What happened was the other person misinterpreted the act as something that the submissive absolutely loves, rather than as something being done for the dominant.

This raises a question for me. I have no real experience with this stuff aside from being a bit of a voyeur at parties heh. After a scene that really gets past the sub's defences and deep into their head, what should the aftercare look like? I realize how subjective the question is...but should the dominant not be leaving the submissive's side for even a moment? The aftercare I've seen done has been after really tame scenes of heavy bondage etc, nothing really intense.



WillowRain -> RE: Vulnerability and submission in public play (11/3/2007 2:04:30 PM)

I cannot even imagine submitting to someone who would move me into that type of vulnerable open space and then not protect me like a rabbid dog until I was closed off enough to make good choices with a logic led solid mind. I cannot even imagine. It makes sense that there are Dominants who might do that, but I would hate to be the one serving them, or care for anyone that was involved in serving them.

If you want to pop people open into very primal basic states of experience, you better darn well have the personal integrity and strength to see them through to the other side or you simply have no place doing it. I recognize that is a strong opinion to voice, but I really feel that way.



MistressPurpleFL -> RE: Vulnerability and submission in public play (11/3/2007 2:11:45 PM)

AFTERCARE is very important; in my circles even though I am a woman who looks like a sweet teddy bear I am much the Lioness.  I am very protective of those who are in my care; Disrespect is not tolerated and no one in their right mind would approach a slave of mine without my permission.  Also if I have just scened with someone NO is allowed to talk to my submissive until I am sure that they are Ok and out of that subspace trance.   It is a case by case situation depending on the intensity of the play.



LuckyAlbatross -> RE: Vulnerability and submission in public play (11/3/2007 3:36:00 PM)

Was the problem that she was still feeling vulnerable?  If so, she should have kept to herself or kept her dom with her to shield.  If she didn't know that she was still vulnerable- well that's what we call a "life lesson" and thankfully no serious damage was done.

If it was just that she didn't like what the person said, well learn to brush off opinions that don't matter.



MystressDream -> RE: Vulnerability and submission in public play (11/3/2007 3:40:00 PM)

IMO.... the Dominant fell down on his/her responsibilites.  It is our responsibility to protect the submissive we have just taken into another level, and to keep any unwanted approaches from happening.  I play in public all the time.  Nobody in the club would ever approach one of my play partners without my permission during or after a scene.  It is common manners and courtesy.  What a shame that poor girl was subjected to it.  As much of a cad as the third person was, however, I would put the blame and responsibility where it belongs.  On the shoulders of the Dom who took her there.



LuckyAlbatross -> RE: Vulnerability and submission in public play (11/3/2007 5:06:50 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MystressDream
Nobody in the club would ever approach one of my play partners without my permission during or after a scene.  It is common manners and courtesy. 

No it's not- if a person isn't IN a scene, or very visibly "out of it" then why should anyone be expected to treat them differently?  I agree perhaps the dom could have been more aware, but I don't think it's anyone's FAULT.  Shit happens, obviously no one expected this to happen.  Lesson learned.



CdnExplorer -> RE: Vulnerability and submission in public play (11/3/2007 5:17:53 PM)

That's an important detail that I'm not really aware of, since I don't actually know the submissive from this scenario. It's quite possible that they didn't realize how vulnerable they really were at the time.

This was a really good lesson to have learned from at a distance rather than from experience.



Celeste43 -> RE: Vulnerability and submission in public play (11/4/2007 8:00:31 AM)

If the sub was still lying under a blanket, then presumably they weren't up to conversation. If however the remark was made two hours later, while the sub was no longer being held, but was wandering around talking with friends, then people shouldn't have to assume they were still in subspace.



junecleaver -> RE: Vulnerability and submission in public play (11/4/2007 10:39:29 AM)

Honestly, being vulnerable to my Dominant doesn't mean I'm vulnerable to everyone else.  Unless I'm coming down, I'm still capable of defending myself.  If a person just approached me expecting to get the same treatment as my Dominant, I would let them know that wasn't happening.



quote:

Have you ever felt let down after a scene because of how observers treated you afterwards?


No.

quote:

As a Dom/me how can you maximize vulnerability will decreasing these risks?


People make bad choices.  They make good choices.  It's hard to decrease risks that are just a part of interacting with other people.  If you don't want to be hurt by people, you better avoid them all together.


quote:

As a submissive how can you cope with the misinterpretation and misuse of your vulnerability / trust by others?


I don't put THAT much trust in other people.  I expect them to follow the guidelines of the group and the venue.  When they break the rules, they'll probably be talked to or kicked out of the group/venue.  It's nice if they aren't mean or rude, but sometimes that will be hoping for too much and I acknowledge that.



lateralist1 -> RE: Vulnerability and submission in public play (11/4/2007 11:34:55 AM)

Unfortunately some men are incapable of distinguishing what a woman will do with her man with what she will do with any man.
I will not even attend a munch anymore because of the attitude of certain men towards women in the lifestyle and I am a dominant woman.
I would expect every decent man to be aware of that fact and protect their partner from potential upset.
However my expectations of men seem to be very much higher than most are able to live up to.
However as usual we do not have enough facts about the situation to really judge individuals actions.
As has been said let's just hope a lesson has been learned without any serious harm.



Maya2001 -> RE: Vulnerability and submission in public play (11/4/2007 3:03:13 PM)

I know of one bdsm local group which has strict rules at their private events  in which it is stated that no interruptions are allowed during a scene and for a half hour afterward in order to give the sceners(both dom and sub)  a chance to recover, anyone violating those rules would be thrown out.  



Obsidiansnamaste -> RE: Vulnerability and submission in public play (11/4/2007 3:20:30 PM)

Greetings,

This type of thing has not ever occured to me, i think predominately because i'm always w/ Master...esp if we are in a situation with unknown people. In our local community we are pretty well known so its not an issue. Either way i am normally in physical proximity to Him. After a scene i'm a puddle so i'm normally curled up under a blankie and He's near me. Either way the idea that someone would grasp onto the things said during a scene and think to use them is tactless.



Cloudz -> RE: Vulnerability and submission in public play (11/5/2007 5:41:41 PM)

I concur with LA. It sounds like the person who made the faux pas was known to both parties. Stuff happens, even bad stuff happens when the intention was good. We are all human beings, and Dom's, like subs, and even voyeur's make mistakes. I would chalk it up to a life lesson, and be done with it. Sometimes people (not a reference to the OP - just a general observation) jump on a negative bandwagon on the boards, and honestly - it can do a disservice to someone who is merely trying to learn. So - I hope all the parties involved were able to engage in a honest discussion, and that everyone lived happily ever after.



lillminx -> RE: Vulnerability and submission in public play (11/6/2007 2:23:34 PM)

I have had on-lookers say things to me after a scene in public play. It feels terrible!  What I've done is discuss it with Master and we came up with appropriate responses. For example, 'this scene wasn't for you, it was for US' or 'I'll mention your concerns to Master and He'll discuss it with you.'
It has subsided a great deal, and as I became more confident, I told them 'what for.'



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