If it weren’t for the preconceptions…

If it weren’t for the preconceptions… (Full Version)

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Tigrita -> If it weren’t for the preconceptions… (11/7/2007 11:52:25 AM)
I think a lot about my first D/s type relationship (it was in the ‘vanilla world’, undefined, but still very D/s), and how I was before I discovered the labeled, semi-organized world of BDSM. There are a lot of things that come pretty naturally to me now that wouldn’t have before I discovered this world and realized that there are certain norms and expectations (though I use those terms very loosely) of submissives and dominants. Things like service, training, kneeling, protocols, discipline, outlandish toys, intense S&M (okay, some of those things are still kind of hard for me, but I still ‘get it’ with regard to their significance and role in D/s relationships). I’m not saying all those things play a role in every relationship, but I’m just realizing that so many things I would have said WTF!?!? to and would have threatened my ‘empowered woman’ mantras before now seem natural. I came to CM seeking fulfillment of my desire to be dominated, and found a whole lot of stuff that sort of ‘comes with the territory’ that I now accept and often enjoy, but I’m sure I wouldn’t have arrived at on my own. My first "dominant" was a natural alpha, got what he wanted, totally dominated me and kept me in my place without any of the kneeling, protocols, kinky toys (besides a short piece of rope sometimes and some light spanking with hands and household items), titles, grand demonstrations of authority/submission, negotiated limits or power transfers etc., and we were both ecstatically happy, things flowed totally naturally and undefined. He just had complete, unconditional power over me sexually, and I did whatever I could to make him happy in and out of the bedroom without ever being commanded to because he exuded an overpowering natural dominance that drew me to him, and that in its self encouraged my submissiveness. So, my question to everyone is, what do you think would have been different about the way you express your submissiveness or dominance if you’d never been introduced to others into BDSM and some of the ‘norms’ that come with it for other lifestylers? Do you think it would be less satisfying? More satisfying? Just as satisfying but very different? Just as satisfying and not any different? Looking forward to seeing what others think.

batshalom -> RE: If it weren’t for the preconceptions… (11/7/2007 12:08:21 PM)
The way I expressed my submissiveness was to choke on it. I didn't find it acceptable so I used different negative means to shut it up: drugs, alcohol, etc. I thougth I had to be dominant in order to survive, chose a dominant career, chose the dominant role in many relationships. I couldn't find the key to my unhappiness. I faked being dominant for the better part of my life until an accidental encounter opened up a whole new world to me. Suddenly it was acceptable and desirable to be submissive. I didn't need to feel misplaced, didn't need alcohol or drugs, and I came out to my therapist who ultimately found that it was a turning point in my healing. I still have the dominant career but I don't have the therapist or the twelve-step programs. I am going through a very difficult period at the moment but I am not losing myself in self-defeating behaviors the way I would have before I realized who and what I am. I am taking responsibility for myself, my UM's, maintaining my career, and working on my PhD. I am moving forward one step at a time (thank you for the kick in the ass, Bounty). I am a stronger person for embracing this part of myself and know that tomorrow is going to be a beautiful day. My response to this sort of turmoil before coming to terms with my submissiveness would have been to drink myself numb.

IrishMist -> RE: If it weren’t for the preconceptions… (11/7/2007 12:09:35 PM)
quote: So, my question to everyone is, what do you think would have been different about the way you express your submissiveness or dominance if you’d never been introduced to others into BDSM and some of the ‘norms’ that come with it for other lifestylers? Nothing would be different. I am who I am, with or without the label, and with or without others sharing the same thing.

toservez -> RE: If it weren’t for the preconceptions… (11/7/2007 12:14:29 PM)
Interesting question, on the one hand I would certainly have a submissive personality even if I never discovered my life and if just been in a regular relationship would still be a beta. On the other hand my first experience of being sexually dominated and objectified was done with none of the formality or either of us knowing this was a well documented way. I simply would not have talked about in the terms we all do. I then spent several years always trying to re-create the experience until I found who would become my first owners who introduce me to the more “formal” way. I am not sure if I would have ever thought about what I was trying to duplicate my experience to what I might click on the Internet, let alone understand the far bigger picture, and might have never gotten to pursue this life. I was still happy when stumbling around but obvious to me then and now I was definitely looking for something not “regular”. I think I would have been happy, I still would end up with someone who was an alpha personality no matter what, but I have to believe not as happy as I am with the path I have found for myself.

LadyHibiscus -> RE: If it weren’t for the preconceptions… (11/7/2007 12:16:28 PM)
Anyone in the lifestyle who sees my family, our dynamic, and how I was brought up can see the obvious D/s dynamic. My grandmother was a dominant, my mom is, and so am I. To me, it's just the natural order of things. (yes, imagine the drama of a house with three topwomen in it...) The biggest shock to me when I got into the scene was that the stuff I had been doing as a TEEN was D/s! Imagine, 15 yr old, me with her little slaveboys! If I never learned to play with exciting toys, I would still be having the same kinds of relationships, and still looking for the same kinds of people. I can't say if I would miss playing, obviously, but I know that I can go for long periods without it. I think I would happily go on being the Responsible One, the Person in Charge, etc, and I would have people in my life who would try to keep me happy. So, the same, really! Only with fewer toys, and less glamourous costumes.

RRafe -> RE: If it weren’t for the preconceptions… (11/7/2007 12:22:25 PM)
I learned that The whole ritual aspects were only a small part of the overall scheme. That chemistry and the simple ability to pay attention to another individual trumped all of the structure stuff. That there were a whole lot of really idiotic justifications for simply following the primal to it's roots. I trashed them, as useless and confining. And that I really only needed to look at things in practical and naturalistic terms-it's more about your gut than your head. I'm not a role, a protocol, or an expectation-I'm a person. And that's exactly how I relate to anyone else-without any need to hide behind a mask.

maudite -> RE: If it weren’t for the preconceptions… (11/7/2007 12:38:54 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RRafe I'm not a role, a protocol, or an expectation-I'm a person. And that's exactly how I relate to anyone else-without any need to hide behind a mask. I agree with this -- discovering that there were various expectations in the scene didn't change the way I view my own submissive nature, or what my personal kinks are. I've learned some new ones along the way, but I feel no need or desire to follow some established "protocol" just because that's the way everybody else does things. We all came to our kink in our own way -- the only "rules" I follow are the ones set down for me in-scene by a dominant.

MsBearlee -> RE: If it weren’t for the preconceptions… (11/7/2007 1:06:55 PM)
sooooooooooo... ritual (and tradition) has been reduced to 'masking'? I'm sorry; that feels too simplistic, for me. but maybe that's it...just for ME Beverly

MadRabbit -> RE: If it weren’t for the preconceptions… (11/7/2007 1:08:44 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Tigrita So, my question to everyone is, what do you think would have been different about the way you express your submissiveness or dominance if you’d never been introduced to others into BDSM and some of the ‘norms’ that come with it for other lifestylers? It would probably be a part of me that won't be as developed as much as it is now. I would also have less knowledge, tools, understanding, and ideas for making my own personal fulfilling relationship. However, I do wonder what would have happened if I had simply stumbled on a person who was compatible with me and my natural personality and then proceeded to explore and discover what made the two of us happy without any outside influence. Because...to be honest, as I date and meet more and more women on the other end of the spectrum, it becomes more and more clear to me that a lot of them aren't looking for a "person", but rather searching for the rituals, the dominance, the collar, the "ideals".

RRafe -> RE: If it weren’t for the preconceptions… (11/7/2007 1:12:33 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MsBearlee sooooooooooo... ritual (and tradition) has been reduced to 'masking'? I'm sorry; that feels too simplistic, for me. but maybe that's it...just for ME Beverly Smiles, if being a conformist to a fantasy world is right for you, go with the herd....... Baaaaaaaaaaaa!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I'm more of a goat than a sheep.[:D]

toservez -> RE: If it weren’t for the preconceptions… (11/7/2007 1:15:16 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MsBearlee sooooooooooo... ritual (and tradition) has been reduced to 'masking'? I'm sorry; that feels too simplistic, for me. but maybe that's it...just for ME Beverly I strongly agree. I have opinions of this but not to start a flame war or hijack this thread I will just say many of us are a fan of such things and rules and “protocols” are what the two people make and benefit out of them and not some pissing contest of I am more natural in my way then others type phrases.

toservez -> RE: If it weren’t for the preconceptions… (11/7/2007 1:19:48 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RRafe quote: ORIGINAL: MsBearlee sooooooooooo... ritual (and tradition) has been reduced to 'masking'? I'm sorry; that feels too simplistic, for me. but maybe that's it...just for ME Beverly Smiles, if being a conformist to a fantasy world is right for you, go with the herd....... Baaaaaaaaaaaa!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I'm more of a goat than a sheep.[:D] Actually you are way more of a sheep in terms of the human behavior of wanting to feel better then others and your way is the cooler/better way. There is a huge difference between rules, rituals and protocols that work for two people in their personal relationship then some sort of thing to follow that a person printed off the Internet or follow the heard in a local community setting. Try respecting to each their own and not confusing the two.

RRafe -> RE: If it weren’t for the preconceptions… (11/7/2007 1:23:51 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: toservez quote: ORIGINAL: RRafe quote: ORIGINAL: MsBearlee sooooooooooo... ritual (and tradition) has been reduced to 'masking'? I'm sorry; that feels too simplistic, for me. but maybe that's it...just for ME Beverly Smiles, if being a conformist to a fantasy world is right for you, go with the herd....... Baaaaaaaaaaaa!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I'm more of a goat than a sheep.[:D] Actually you are way more of a sheep in terms of the human behavior of wanting to feel better then others and your way is the cooler/better way. There is a huge difference between rules, rituals and protocols that work for two people in their personal relationship then some sort of thing to follow that a person printed off the Internet or follow the heard in a local community setting. Try respecting to each their own and not confusing the two. I've done it both ways-you are manking asumptions based on slim details. What I found was this. Way too many people use this sort of pat structure and protocol as a way to objecfify a relationship. I see it as lazy and dull. It's like following a script that was written by someone else. Why would I want to "honor" something created by gay swingers who wanted to get thier rocks off?

Rover -> RE: If it weren’t for the preconceptions… (11/7/2007 1:49:23 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Tigrita So, my question to everyone is, what do you think would have been different about the way you express your submissiveness or dominance if you’d never been introduced to others into BDSM and some of the ‘norms’ that come with it for other lifestylers? Do you think it would be less satisfying? More satisfying? Just as satisfying but very different? Just as satisfying and not any different? Looking forward to seeing what others think. I think it's natural to assume that we'd all be the same individuals one way or the other. But I don't think that's the same as saying our lives have not been changed.... drastically... by having discovered the organized lifestyle and building our own relationships, shaping our opinions and expectations, discovering ourselves more fully... all upon the backs of those who came before us. Even those who have discovered nothing more organized than the internet are exposed to an enormous quantity of information that is based upon the cumulative knowledge of the organized lifestyle. And to claim that it has not changed their lives profoundly is, in my opinion, not credible in the least. Has it made them into who they are? No, probably not. No more than the discovery of a sport and the experience of a coach can create an athlete where none existed. But has it allowed them to maximize their athletic potential? Absolutely, in the same way that organized sport and coach can do for someone in possession of unrealized athletic potential. Without the benefit of an existing body of knowledge we would: Lack a self-awareness of who and what we are. Feel like outcasts, wrong, unacceptable, deviantly diseased, etc. Unable to know enough about ourselves to locate a compatible partner. Unable to construct a fulfilling relationship. Anyone claiming to have done it all on their own is only fooling themselves. John

RRafe -> RE: If it weren’t for the preconceptions… (11/7/2007 1:55:52 PM)
I got my really useful knowledge base from real time interactions with submissive and switch women. Not from paying attention to a bunch of posturing windbags.[;)]

Rover -> RE: If it weren’t for the preconceptions… (11/7/2007 2:02:45 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RRafe I got my really useful knowledge base from real time interactions with submissive and switch women. Not from paying attention to a bunch of posturing windbags.[;)] Correcting my error in confusing you with someone else. Just consider it excess wind, though not one of posturing. John

CuriousLord -> RE: If it weren’t for the preconceptions… (11/7/2007 2:04:33 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Tigrita So, my question to everyone is, what do you think would have been different about the way you express your submissiveness or dominance if you’d never been introduced to others into BDSM and some of the ‘norms’ that come with it for other lifestylers? Do you think it would be less satisfying? More satisfying? Just as satisfying but very different? Just as satisfying and not any different? Looking forward to seeing what others think. I feel it's entirely more satisfying to have a relationship that isn't "BDSM"-esque by design but by happenstance. Then again, I guess I've never gone into a long term commitment under the assumption it'd be a BDSM relationship. They've just turned into a D/s-like or M/s-like dynamic over time. I've just always been happier that way. I often get the feeling that BDSM, proper, is more of a sexually-based lifestyle, with protocols and such; I feel that there are lifestyles like BDSM, but not truly part of it, that have D/s and M/s -like dynamics, but are moreso romantic. ("Taken in Hand", I suppose.) They're the best, for me. PS- A point I was hinting at, but on reading over, seem to have failed to state more directly.. Since I haven't ever started a relationship as a BDSM-based one as a starting assumption, I can't say exactly how that'd be. I'm rather partial to the alternative, so I'm working under the assumption that it's better to have a relationship that evolves into an M/s one, but I suppose I can't be sure based off my experience alone.

LaTigresse -> RE: If it weren’t for the preconceptions… (11/7/2007 2:07:43 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RRafe I got my really useful knowledge base from real time interactions with submissive and switch women. Not from paying attention to a bunch of posturing windbags.[;)] I don't mind saying that this statement makes you look exactly like a "posturing windbag". I don't care for alot of structure and protocol myself but I can certainly accept that there are people that do. My way is not the one true way, it is just MY WAY. Capiche?

RRafe -> RE: If it weren’t for the preconceptions… (11/7/2007 2:12:25 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LaTigresse quote: ORIGINAL: RRafe I got my really useful knowledge base from real time interactions with submissive and switch women. Not from paying attention to a bunch of posturing windbags.[;)] I don't mind saying that this statement makes you look exactly like a "posturing windbag". I don't care for alot of structure and protocol myself but I can certainly accept that there are people that do. My way is not the one true way, it is just MY WAY. Capiche? What I do works for me. Do what you do your way. Did you miss the part where I told everyone that they had to do what I said? Or did you create it?

RRafe -> RE: If it weren’t for the preconceptions… (11/7/2007 2:19:34 PM)
deleted due to a simple misunderstanding.

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