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What is it w/ this Gift issue?!?! - 11/7/2007 11:19:23 PM

MasterofScyn

Posts: 141
Joined: 11/4/2007
Status: offline

I understand that I am new here, I am posting far more than my Master is. But I've been seeing alot of question on what a gift is to a Master.

I feel that a gift is something that comes from the heart no matter what form it is given in. When we walk threw the park I'll give him a flower that I find, I know he won't keep it, but it tells him that my thoughts are of him.

This last weekend I gave him a different kind of gift, an action that told him I have finally given him my complete submission. It surprised him, but he accepted it as a gift.

I don't see how a gift can be defined. It's like trying to say that cats and dogs are the same or something. I'm not understanding why it seems to be a deal as to what a gift really is... To me it can be as simple as the little flowers I find, or an action.

Maybe I'm just a confused little pet... This is just how I feel about this whole gift issue that I keep seeing here and there.

Scyn ~

Post #: 1

RE: What is it w/ this Gift issue?!?! - 11/7/2007 11:51:43 PM

GrizzlyBear

Posts: 278
Joined: 3/26/2004
From: Missoula Montana
Status: offline

You gave him the flower, it was a gift, you do not care what he does with it. He throws it away, he sleeps with it under his pillow, no big deal, right? And you expect nothing in return, right?

Would you feel the same way about your submission, if he just threw it away? I think not. You expect something in return. You expect in return his domination. Therfore, it is not a gift it is an exchange. A power exchange. That is why it is called, a power exchange relationship.

_____________________________

GrizzlyBear

"Come to the edge," he said.
They said, "We are afraid."
"Come to the edge," he said.
They came. He pushed them. And they flew.
~Guillaume Apollinaire

(in reply to MasterofScyn)

Post #: 2

RE: What is it w/ this Gift issue?!?! - 11/8/2007 1:11:13 AM

Focus50

Posts: 3962
Joined: 12/28/2004
From: Newcastle, Australia
Status: offline

It seems you're mostly referring to that old chestnut of the "Gift of Submission"....

While I'm not unappreciative of what a fem/sub can offer me that an attractive vanilla female can't, I do have issue with it being referred to as a *gift*. So I'm nit-picking, whateva, but gifts are given freely and with no expectation of something in return and that is NOT what that submissive expects or intends.

Yes, submission has a value the Dominant me greatly appreciates and desires - but it ain't free and it ain't a gift per se' because I have something of equal value and desirability that she also can't get from any ole vanilla, either! What we have is something mutually unique to exchange for an even greater overall outcome.

There's only a "gift of submission" if you equally acknowledge its complementing opposite - a "gift of domination".... And when you compare the two, the thing that looks ridiculous to me is that word "gift".

Focus.

(in reply to MasterofScyn)

Post #: 3

RE: What is it w/ this Gift issue?!?! - 11/8/2007 1:22:34 AM

Aceton

Posts: 97
Joined: 9/2/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterofScyn

I understand that I am new here, I am posting far more than my Master is. But I've been seeing alot of question on what a gift is to a Master.

I feel that a gift is something that comes from the heart no matter what form it is given in. When we walk threw the park I'll give him a flower that I find, I know he won't keep it, but it tells him that my thoughts are of him.

This last weekend I gave him a different kind of gift, an action that told him I have finally given him my complete submission. It surprised him, but he accepted it as a gift.

I don't see how a gift can be defined. It's like trying to say that cats and dogs are the same or something. I'm not understanding why it seems to be a deal as to what a gift really is... To me it can be as simple as the little flowers I find, or an action.

Maybe I'm just a confused little pet... This is just how I feel about this whole gift issue that I keep seeing here and there.

Scyn ~

It's pretty easy really. There are a whole bunch of submissive types running around thinking that they are doing Doms a favor by being a submissive. Fact of the matter is, being a Dom can be hard work, how much hard work it is depends on the submissive, life issues, and a plethora of other possible factors.

Calling your submission a 'gift' makes it sound a wee bit like the Dom should be oh so greatful that you deigned to allow him to spend several hours sending you into your sweet little sub space trip, or whatever it is he does for you.

You don't see male subs claiming their submission as a gift anywhere near as much, in fact they often PAY to give their 'gift' away. Is their 'gift' somehow different from a female subs, or are the old economic laws of supply and demand kicking in? (Keep in mind, even though male subs have a hard time finding female dommes who will give them the time of day, it is often equally hard, if not harder for a female sub to sift through the multitude of players, horny net geeks, and plain assholes who call themselves Doms to find the sort of fellow who can be not just a Dom, but a good Dom.)

Bottom line, calling submission a gift often makes the submissive who does it seem kind of selfish and a possible abdicator of their responsibilities. AKA A spoiled, selfish princess.

(in reply to MasterofScyn)

Post #: 4

RE: What is it w/ this Gift issue?!?! - 11/8/2007 3:01:53 AM

MidnightMaiden

Posts: 142
Joined: 10/22/2007
Status: offline

I have just had this conversation in another post on this board, so I will try not to rehash all of what I said.

Humbly, how can I give my Master anything? All that I have is his, all that I formerly owned is his, I have nothing to give. It is rightfully his to take. To claim that it was a gift would be arrogance, and an assumption that I still held onto the notions of my old life that I was entitled to my own possessions. But before service, before making that step from free woman to slave, I still belonged to myself... I gave that to him.

As a submissive the only gift I give my Master, is that first act of offering myself, of giving myself over to him, after that, after I become his property, then all else is his right and cannot be considered a gift. I do not believe my continued service to be a gift, and (perhaps arrogantly) I do not believe myself to be a spoiled, selfish princess (although Master would be a better judge than I).

Do I expect domination in exchange for my submission, well duh, but if I didn't get it, or I don't get it in the form I would like, tough titties girly, to demand anything other than that which he wishes to give would be topping from the bottom. It is for that reason, that when he is dominant, I view that as a gift to me, and I am most appreciative.

quote:

Calling your submission a 'gift' makes it sound a wee bit like the Dom should be oh so greatful that you deigned to allow him to spend several hours sending you into your sweet little sub space trip, or whatever it is he does for you.

This slave is new to embrace this life, but embrace it fully I do, and it could be that I need lessons in humility, or as was suggeseted by another Master try and get into my Tops head a little more for a deeper understanding. I know my Master commands me and I obey. I mean no disrespect to my Master (or any Master) by viewing his attentions towards me as a gift, I appreciate the work and effort that he puts in, and I know I do not have what it takes within me to ever switch and give another that which he gives (gifts to) me.

This thread interweaves with another post on the forum and in keeping with forum etiquette I am trying not to double post, however I felt this part of what I wrote in the other thread was important enough to warrant repeating...

My son is 7 and he is autistic. When he was 3 I was told that he would never understand the concept of love, not the way regular people do. It's not in their wiring. If he ever said the words "I love you" it would be learned behaviour, nothing given from the heart.

Now that he is 7 and he has surpassed all expectations, he freely jumps in my lap and hugs me and says "I love you mummy". It's genuine and pure, and it is the greatest gift I have ever received. Does he see his love as a gift. No of course not. Do I? Absolutely, I should be shot if I did not.

Respectfully, Sassi

< Message edited by MidnightMaiden -- 11/8/2007 3:57:34 AM >

(in reply to Aceton)

Post #: 5

RE: What is it w/ this Gift issue?!?! - 11/8/2007 5:57:11 AM

Celeste43

Posts: 3066
Joined: 2/4/2006
From: NYS
Status: offline

Well, considering I haven't and am not going to sign over the deed to my house or my stocks and bonds to him, he doesn't own everything I own. Nor does he want to. And he enjoyed getting presents at his birthday, he probably enjoyed more not having candles on the cake. So yes I can give him gifts.

But in general, I think the term gift of submission is of most use to newbies who have a tendency to go off in sub frenzy and make stupid mistakes by trusting without proof of trustworthiness and agreeing to do things that if they thought about, they wouldn't do. So if they can get it into their heads that they are valuable also, they might not agree to the first dom who says "kneel bitch".

But as phrases go, it isn't of much use in an ongoing relationship where both peoples needs are being met. It might be useful in a one sided relationship where the sub is extremely unhappy to remind her that her submission is something that should be appreciated, as she should be, and that if all he does with it is throw it on the floor and trample it into the dirt, perhaps she should seriously consider giving it to someone else.

It's of most use to women coming out of abusive relationships to serve as a reminder to think carefully before getting into a new relationship.

(in reply to MidnightMaiden)

Post #: 6

RE: What is it w/ this Gift issue?!?! - 11/8/2007 6:36:42 AM

MasterofScyn

Posts: 141
Joined: 11/4/2007
Status: offline

I'm not saying that submission in it's self is the "Gift". I understand that part of the deal...... No, not real sure exactly how to explain that from my previous post..... The D/s is a choice, a commitment between the parties involved with the relationship. I was just saying that this little action I did for him the other weekend was in some ways a gift because that is how he accepted it. I did not intend to give it to him as such, it was in the way he accepted it. I guess it's the best way I can explain that part of it.

What I meant by action was, not the fact that the sub has submitted herself to you. But the things she/he does. Like you walk threw the door, comming home from a long day at work, all you want to do is relax. Your pet has put in the effort of cleaning up, spreading candles all over the place "setting the mood" Possibly made a hot bath for you All this would be considered a form of a gift in my eyes.

The flower, no, I don't care what he does he with it, but if it was anything else, if I put the effort and real thought into it, yes I would care how he treated it. A gift is just how someone wants to accept it. My love for Master equals to his love for me, but he accepts it as a gift, a gift that he'll charish for the rest of his life. I always care about the little things, the flower.. Sure I don't care about the flower it's self, I know it will die in a day or two, I don't expect anyone to keep a dead flower. It's the thought behind it.

I don't know... the more I type I this particular post the harder it's getting to explain. Also I just barely woke up too, can't think to straight. I never said though, that submission was a gift. I know that I made it sound that way in the first post, but it wasn't what I meant. It's was this one little action that I did that made all the difference in the world to Master, HE accepted it as a gift. If the other person accepts it as a gift of some sorts, how is that any different from an object type gift? That's what i'm trying to understand. Isn't it suppose to be the little things that matter most? Giving into complete submission isn't really that little, it's a huge step, a comitment for that tyype of relationship, I will agree that I don't consder that has the gift. It's the little things that I do for him, unexpected things, that I consider the gift.

Scyn ~

(in reply to Celeste43)

Post #: 7

RE: What is it w/ this Gift issue?!?! - 11/8/2007 6:48:32 AM

AquaticSub

Posts: 14867
Joined: 12/27/2005
Status: offline

The words "gift" and "need" get defined, redefined and defined some more in very stark and unflexible ways when this topic comes up. My advice? Use the term that feels best for you and screw everyone else.

< Message edited by AquaticSub -- 11/8/2007 6:49:27 AM >

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

(in reply to MasterofScyn)

Post #: 8

RE: What is it w/ this Gift issue?!?! - 11/8/2007 3:13:56 PM

Squeakers

Posts: 489
Joined: 10/3/2006
Status: offline

I always thought it was 'the grift' of submission.

(in reply to AquaticSub)

Post #: 9

RE: What is it w/ this Gift issue?!?! - 11/8/2007 3:57:23 PM

LuckyAlbatross

Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline

Please enjoy my gift of links:

http://www.collarchat.com/m_1180353/mpage_1/tm.htm
"Submission is a gift"

http://www.collarchat.com/m_725554/mpage_2/key_gift/tm.htm#725692
It ain't a gift

http://www.collarchat.com/m_539780/mpage_1/key_gift/tm.htm#539948
The gift of submission

http://www.collarchat.com/m_417971/mpage_2/key_gift/tm.htm#418195
submission is a gift!!!???

http://www.collarchat.com/m_285542/mpage_1/key_gift%252Csubmission/tm.htm#285542
If submission is a 'gift.' what's dominance?

http://www.collarchat.com/m_199872/mpage_1/key_gift%252Csubmission/tm.htm#199872
The Gift you give to yourself

http://www.collarchat.com/m_195087/mpage_1/key_gift%252Csubmission/tm.htm#195087
A gift???

http://www.collarchat.com/m_137582/mpage_1/key_gift%252Csubmission/tm.htm#137582
The Domly Gift

http://www.collarchat.com/m_135667/mpage_1/key_gift%252Csubmission/tm.htm#135667
Why do so many view submission as a gift?

http://www.collarchat.com/m_128811/mpage_1/key_gift%252Csubmission/tm.htm#128811
Do you consider your submission to someone a gift?

http://www.collarchat.com/m_118674/mpage_1/key_gift%252Csubmission/tm.htm#118674
Gift or not...

http://www.collarchat.com/m_109097/mpage_1/key_gift%252Csubmission/tm.htm#109097
The "gift" of submission

http://www.collarchat.com/m_26446/mpage_1/key_gift%252Csubmission/tm.htm#26446
On the gift of submission

http://www.collarchat.com/m_17487/mpage_1/key_gift%252Csubmission/tm.htm#17487
my thoughts on the "gift" of submission

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to MasterofScyn)

Post #: 10

RE: What is it w/ this Gift issue?!?! - 11/8/2007 5:30:53 PM

octavia

Posts: 377
Joined: 5/20/2007
Status: offline

I was taught that a gift is when I give someone something I want them to have and a present is when I give them something they want to have.

Just my two cents.

oct

(in reply to MasterofScyn)

Post #: 11

RE: What is it w/ this Gift issue?!?! - 11/8/2007 8:06:58 PM

TemptingNviceSub

Posts: 3054
Joined: 10/1/2005
Status: offline

What I meant by action was, not the fact that the sub has submitted herself to you. But the things she/he does. Like you walk threw the door, comming home from a long day at work, all you want to do is relax. Your pet has put in the effort of cleaning up, spreading candles all over the place "setting the mood" Possibly made a hot bath for you All this would be considered a form of a gift in my eyes.

To the quote above:..This may still not be a gift..it could be considered simply service...as far as the gift of submission..many Dominants do get their panties in an uproar over this terminology...if your Dominant sees it as a gift..then gift it is....Tempting

_____________________________

I have greatly enjoyed the second blooming...suddenly you find at the age of 50, that a whole new life has opened before you.........Agatha Christie.

You must make tracks into the unknown~~Thoreau

(in reply to MasterofScyn)

Post #: 12

RE: What is it w/ this Gift issue?!?! - 11/8/2007 8:41:38 PM

MasterofScyn

Posts: 141
Joined: 11/4/2007
Status: offline

Even with all this, in a lot of ways, it still doesn't really answer the question. The question was, why does the "Gift" need to be defined. I'm not asking what it means, I'm asking what the big deal is. To me, a gift is what any one given person makes it out to be. Yes, my Master accepted my submission to him as a gift, it was all I had to offer him.

To Define a gift such as people are defining is like trying to define life itself. It's like comparing fire and ice. I'm just trying to figure out why it's such a big deal to define it. Some people see submission as a gift, others clearly don't. That isn't what I was trying to ask. I mean, above is a whole list of "what does a gift mean" .... All I'm trying to figure out is why does it have to MEAN anything? Why make an issue of it like that? I know people are different and so are their opinions, it makes no sense to have to find a meaning to a simple thing such as a gift. It could be anything just as long as it means something to the person that is receiving it. I never once asked if giving my submission was considered a gift. I asked why is it such a big deal to define what a gift is.

quote:

My son is 7 and he is autistic. When he was 3 I was told that he would never understand the concept of love, not the way regular people do. It's not in their wiring. If he ever said the words "I love you" it would be learned behaviour, nothing given from the heart.

Now that he is 7 and he has surpassed all expectations, he freely jumps in my lap and hugs me and says "I love you mummy". It's genuine and pure, and it is the greatest gift I have ever received. Does he see his love as a gift. No of course not. Do I? Absolutely, I should be shot if I did not.

Respectfully, Sassi

This to me would be the greatest "Gift" of them all. I love hearing about things like this. It doesn't have to be intended as a gift when it was given, it matters most how it was received and accepted. Why does something like that need to be defined?

How is it any different if it comes from a slave or Master? It just doesn't make sense as to why it's such a big deal that it needs to be defined in such a way that it's defined here. Perhaps I'm to simple minded to understand, I don't know... Guess that's just me..

Scyn ~

< Message edited by MasterofScyn -- 11/8/2007 8:49:03 PM >

(in reply to TemptingNviceSub)

Post #: 13

RE: What is it w/ this Gift issue?!?! - 11/8/2007 9:04:22 PM

LuckyAlbatross

Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline

Because people try to make it mean something "more." People wouldn't use the term unless it MEANT something to them. And frankly, no one really cares or would react any more than perhaps an inward eye roll if you happened to say "Oh yes, my submission was totally a gift to my dom."

It's when people try to say "submission IS a gift" that the problems and issues arise- because then you're taking a personal perspective and universalizing it. Because then you're forcing all sorts of meaning and bias onto an shared experience labeled "submission" which many people do not appreciate at all.

In my experience, most kinky people want to feel MORE cooler than others- and calling it a "gift" is one way they try to convince themselves of it. I'm not saying they don't experience something very wonderful and special for themselves. But for some reason rather than just owning it for what it is to them as unique individuals having unique experiences of who they are, they feel some need to universalize it in order to justify it and make it real, to say "this is different from what other relationships involve, therefore it's special."

Walking down that road leads to so many false expectations, broken illusions, and blindness.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to MasterofScyn)

Post #: 14

RE: What is it w/ this Gift issue?!?! - 11/8/2007 9:08:05 PM

MissMagnolia

Posts: 3636
Status: offline

How can someone "give" what they have already given?

If it aint gift wrapped, it aint a gift.

_____________________________

if at first you dont succeed..then skydiving isnt for you

Resident Whip Cracker AND Resident Orbs Of Joy.

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

Post #: 15

RE: What is it w/ this Gift issue?!?! - 11/8/2007 9:18:56 PM

MasterofScyn

Posts: 141
Joined: 11/4/2007
Status: offline

Thank you LuckyAlbatross, that makes sense to me. I never considered my submission as a gift, it was just the way he accepted it. I can see what you mean. In situations like that I can see where it would lead into confusion.

It is isn't a gift less it's gift wrapped? Well, that's why there's really big ribbons and boxes... Not to hard to gift wrap yourself up.

(in reply to MissMagnolia)

Post #: 16

RE: What is it w/ this Gift issue?!?! - 11/8/2007 10:45:52 PM

Guilty1974

Posts: 467
Joined: 11/2/2005
From: Den Haag
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross
It's when people try to say "submission IS a gift" that the problems and issues arise- because then you're taking a personal perspective and universalizing it. Because then you're forcing all sorts of meaning and bias onto an shared experience labeled "submission" which many people do not appreciate at all.

Well said, but then again, something similar happens when people start saying "submission IS NOT a gift". That too is a universalised personal perspective. This kind of stuff ususally goes both ways.

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

Post #: 17

RE: What is it w/ this Gift issue?!?! - 11/8/2007 11:18:49 PM

Exquemelin

Posts: 113
Joined: 2/2/2007
From: CT
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MissMagnolia

How can someone "give" what they have already given?

If it aint gift wrapped, it aint a gift.

I'm in trouble then, I'm a terrible gift wrapper.

(in reply to MissMagnolia)

Post #: 18

RE: What is it w/ this Gift issue?!?! - 11/9/2007 3:12:46 AM

trappedinamuseum

Posts: 5066
Joined: 8/24/2006
Status: offline

quote:

)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Exquemelin

quote:

ORIGINAL: MissMagnolia

How can someone "give" what they have already given?

If it aint gift wrapped, it aint a gift.

I'm in trouble then, I'm a terrible gift wrapper.

That's ok....they have professionals for that kind of thing.

_____________________________

"You're gonna catch a cold, from the ice inside you soul.
Don't come back for me.
Don't come back at all" - Jar of Hearts

(in reply to Exquemelin)

Post #: 19

RE: What is it w/ this Gift issue?!?! - 11/9/2007 4:46:15 AM

MidnightMaiden

Posts: 142
Joined: 10/22/2007
Status: offline

quote:

How is it any different if it comes from a slave or Master? It just doesn't make sense as to why it's such a big deal that it needs to be defined in such a way that it's defined here. Perhaps I'm to simple minded to understand, I don't know... Guess that's just me..
Scyn ~

Bah, people get too caught up in semantics and power dynamics. It has to have a definition so they know where to place it in the power-struggle-o-meter. Oh she thinks what I do for her is a gift, she obviously doesnt appreciate the hard work and effort I put in for her. Oh she thinks she is a gift, well she obviously has too high a self esteem and self worth, that's gonna screw with the power dynamic, because property has no worth.

Are we really that fucked up? Have we all become so cynical, so engrossed in power dynamics, that we forget what simple appreciation and gratitude is. Have we become so arrogant that we are blind to the every day miracles that happen to us, must we twist and pervert them into subversions and coercions.

(in reply to MasterofScyn)

Post #: 20

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