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Vanilla to Twisted Spectrum - 11/9/2007 8:15:12 AM   
chellekitty


Posts: 3923
Joined: 3/27/2005
Status: offline 		in an effor not to hijack another thread ( http://www.collarchat.com/m_1395437/mpage_1/tm.htm ) i am starting this one....and i was talking about this with someone last night and i wanted to get some other thoughts on it...

there is one end of the spectrum where people sugarcoat what we do to make it ok and good and wholesome and "normal" (whatever that is) in the vanilla world...and honestly....it's not...if it was we wouldn't need to have this forum to talk to each other about what we do...we could talk about it on the street and in our church groups and durring lunch at work and after PTA meetings...

personally, i see people using the complete opposite end of the spectrum to make what we do ok and good for us because we are dark people and wholesome for us because we are sick and twisted and perverted people...and it is people rationalizing and justifying what we do by saying that no we are not vanilla people, we are the complete opposite, so it is ok that we do this kind of stuff...

well...there may be some people at that complete opposite end of the spectrum....but the majority of the people in this lifestyle lay somewhere in the middle....we go to work and school and some of us go to church and some of us go to PTA meetings and numerous other things along with we have power exchange relationships or beat on or tie up our partners or lovers or whatever....

so why are we so afraid to be somewhere in the middle? is it the balancing act?
either i am vanilla or i am sick and twisted?
i gotta have a rock to stand on and i am definately not vanilla, so i will be sick and twisted?
none of those?
what do you think?

chelle


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One thing I know: the only ones among you who will be really happy are those who will have sought and found how to serve. ~Albert Schweitzer
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RE: Vanilla to Twisted Spectrum - 11/9/2007 8:34:11 AM   
missturbation


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quote:

there is one end of the spectrum where people sugarcoat what we do to make it ok and good and wholesome and "normal" (whatever that is) in the vanilla world...and honestly....it's not...if it was we wouldn't need to have this forum to talk to each other about what we do...we could talk about it on the street and in our church groups and durring lunch at work and after PTA meetings...


Firstly i do talk about it on the street, during lunch at work and after pta meetings. I don't go to church, but if i did, i would have no reservations about talking about it there either.
 
quote:

so why are we so afraid to be somewhere in the middle? is it the balancing act?

I'm not afraid to be anywhere. I am what i am and no amount of trying to label myself, put myself in a box will change that.
 
quote:

either i am vanilla or i am sick and twisted?

No, i'm me. After all who decides just what is nilla and just what is sick and twisted?
 
quote:

i gotta have a rock to stand on and i am definately not vanilla, so i will be sick and twisted?

Just more labelling.
 
quote:

what do you think?

I think that a lot of the time we concentrate far too much on what others think of our lifestyles. I think sometimes we even come across as pretty pathetic in our 'nobody understands us' stance.
In an attempt to have others understand us we place ourselves in boxes, put labels on ourselves. Then we have the nerve to complain when we are labelled!!
To be completely honest i think until we put it in peoples faces, they really dont think about our lifestyle, they are too busy living their own. So they 'ewwww' when they hear of subs being whipped or cry 'disgusting' because i had a few needles put through my breasts. I 'ewww' when i hear of parents still breast feeding 5 year old kids. I think 'yak' when i see 2.4 children and so called perfect parenting / families.
Do we hear them whinging about how they are judged?  Not really. It's just accepted that everyone lives differently and they shrug off those who question their lives. Why oh why can't we just do the same thing?
So many threads on justifying our positions and what those positions are, it makes me sad and angry, a little









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RE: Vanilla to Twisted Spectrum - 11/9/2007 8:40:23 AM   
RCdc


Posts: 8674
Status: offline 		I don't believe there is any black and white in anything chelle.
 
Just because we do what we do, doesn't make me a dark person.  I am simply just .dark.  I cringe at times when people start talking about some 'dark side' of their personality.  I have been on the PTA and it doesn't effect my BDSM life more or less than it does that I attend and hold exhibitions for art.   I am not about to go to church in announce how many stings from a whip Darcy gave me, but I sure attended in my leathers.  So what?  Thats who I am, and I have never had any problems melding anything, because it's just life to me.  I do understand that for some people, they have to keep their BDSM life seperate from outside wiitwd, but that just wouldn;t work for me, nor Darcy.  It would be like hiding a part of ourselves - and in a 'lifestyle' that proclaims honesty and integrity so bloody loudly, it's not often practised huh?
 
What ever happened to just being happy saying 'I'm me' - instead of falling into the whole thing of having to be 'vanilla' - or having to be 'sick and twisted'.  Why can't you be your own rock?
 
the.dark.

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RE: Vanilla to Twisted Spectrum - 11/9/2007 8:50:09 AM   
Celeste43


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From: NYS
Status: offline 		Actually I disagree with you. I really don't think anything I do is sick or twisted. It may be less common but that by itself doesn't make it wrong. If the most common car in America is a Ford, then are you automatically sick and twisted if you drive an import?

Hell, even in the 1940's the range of sexuality was surprisingly wide, Kinsey Report. I doubt the range in sexuality is any more wide today. It's a bell curve, just because you may be out on either end of the curve doesn't make it sick and twisted.

But I don't sit around the dinner table and talk about my sex life. I find that to be a lack of healthy boundaries. The fact that I don't talk about it to my sister, and my adult offspring, and my elderly father doesn't make me sick, I would instead think that it would be sick to force this information on them.

I also don't go into ghoulish details about the stomach bug we were down with last week.

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RE: Vanilla to Twisted Spectrum - 11/9/2007 8:51:27 AM   
IrishMist


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quote:

there is one end of the spectrum where people sugarcoat what we do to make it ok and good and wholesome and "normal" (whatever that is) in the vanilla world...and honestly....it's not...if it was we wouldn't need to have this forum to talk to each other about what we do...we could talk about it on the street and in our church groups and durring lunch at work and after PTA meetings...

Sorry... but, I do talk about it on the street, at work; there have even been a few who attend our church who have very politly asked me about it, to which I responded very honestly; and there are some parents of the friends of the youngin's who are very aware of me and who I am, and what I do.

I admit freely, honestly, with humor sometimes... that yes, I am a very twisted individual; I have never tried to hide that from anyone who took the time to look at me closely and ask questions. I am not ashamed to admit it. I don't seperate my twisted personality from the one that I present to the 'real ' world. They see me; all of me. It is not my place, nor is it my inclination to make things sweeter for them by sugar-coating or being something that I am not.

I am a very sick, twisted individual... and dayum proud of that fact

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RE: Vanilla to Twisted Spectrum - 11/9/2007 9:17:48 AM   
chellekitty


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Joined: 3/27/2005
Status: offline 		FR to everyone....especially who said they said they disagreed with me...you didn't....you (somewhat) agreed with me...that is my point...

yes we have sick and twisted parts of our lives/personalities....but, yes we also have vanilla parts of our lives/personalities...and we are whole people, that include all the parts..

what i was talking about was the people that jump to the opposite end of the spectrum and all they are is sick and twisted people...who have completely compartmentalized lives...the ones that if they saw someone from a play party while they were at walmart with a their church going next door neighbor and that other person just said hi, their heads would explode...

chelle

< Message edited by chellekitty -- 11/9/2007 9:18:12 AM >

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One thing I know: the only ones among you who will be really happy are those who will have sought and found how to serve. ~Albert Schweitzer

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RE: Vanilla to Twisted Spectrum - 11/9/2007 9:27:38 AM   
RCdc


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quote:

yes we have sick and twisted parts of our lives/personalities....but, yes we also have vanilla parts of our lives/personalities...and we are whole people, that include all the parts..

I can see what you are suggesting but I don't see that chelle.  I'm not sick and twisted - it's all perfectly normal to me.
Sick and twisted to me, would be taking a cat and holding it under water.  That's not what I am doing.  What you and/or others may define as sick and twisted, is not the same as might.
 
the.dark.

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RE: Vanilla to Twisted Spectrum - 11/9/2007 9:33:48 AM   
missturbation


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quote:

yes we have sick and twisted parts of our lives/personalities....but, yes we also have vanilla parts of our lives/personalities...and we are whole people, that include all the parts..

But this is what i don't agree with chelle. Putting labels on us, putting us in boxes. The only difference you are stating here is that you think we fit in more than one box.
I am me, a whole person, i don't seperate parts of my life because i can't. My life is seamless and all fits together as one whole.
 
quote:

what i was talking about was the people that jump to the opposite end of the spectrum and all they are is sick and twisted people...who have completely compartmentalized lives...

But you yourself stated in the original quote that you have seperate parts, sick and twisted and nilla. The only concession you made was that you were a whole person including  those parts.
Who's to say where you cross the line from nilla into sick and twisted? Or vice versa? Why can't we be just who we are, all people?
 
quote:

the ones that if they saw someone from a play party while they were at walmart with a their church going next door neighbor and that other person just said hi, their heads would explode...

I personally don't know anyone like that but not to say they aren't out there. Why worry about how others would react in that situation though? I presume you would not act like that? I know i certainly wouldn't.
Theres far too many people who worry about what others think of them and worry about how others behave in their lives. Each to their own isn't it? 


_____________________________

What you don't witness with your eyes, don't witness with your mouth. Proverb.

If it fit's in a toaster, i can cook it.

Buying 10 item's or less is not shopping !!

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RE: Vanilla to Twisted Spectrum - 11/9/2007 9:59:41 AM   
chellekitty


Posts: 3923
Joined: 3/27/2005
Status: offline 		pssst....dark..misst....ya'll didn't dissagree with me in your oringinal response, ya'll got what i was trying to say...i was trying to be nice about it....but post number 6 was in response to IrishMist and Celeste...

oh and as for the parts being part of the whole...i am an hydrophilic aqueous solution.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aqueous_solution  yes...i am a whole person, that when you look at the whole person, there is no seperation...but you can still identify the parts when you put me on a bunsen burner or under a microscope or whatever....


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One thing I know: the only ones among you who will be really happy are those who will have sought and found how to serve. ~Albert Schweitzer

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RE: Vanilla to Twisted Spectrum - 11/9/2007 10:03:59 AM   
missturbation


Posts: 8290
Joined: 2/12/2006
From: another planet
Status: offline 		Well fuck me with a feather, i can't even tell when someone is agreeing with me and i with them. Wonder if someone has slipped something in my coffee
Sorry Chelle lol.

_____________________________

What you don't witness with your eyes, don't witness with your mouth. Proverb.

If it fit's in a toaster, i can cook it.

Buying 10 item's or less is not shopping !!

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RE: Vanilla to Twisted Spectrum - 11/9/2007 10:04:23 AM   
camille65


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Joined: 7/11/2007
From: Austin Texas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: chellekitty
<snipped>
so why are we so afraid to be somewhere in the middle? is it the balancing act?
either i am vanilla or i am sick and twisted?
i gotta have a rock to stand on and i am definately not vanilla, so i will be sick and twisted?
none of those?
what do you think?

chelle
 I do not see it as a balancing act, nor as an 'either or' situation. I am who I am, and I have never considered myself sick. Twisted possibly but even that is more on how I view the outside world instead of myself.

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RE: Vanilla to Twisted Spectrum - 11/9/2007 10:04:23 AM   
slavesunshine


Posts: 58
Joined: 5/5/2007
Status: offline 		Just because we choos to live this lifestyle doesn't mean that any of us are "sick and twisted." That is just putting on a label on who we choose to be. I am no more sick and twisted than any of my vanilla friends and their lives.
We choose to live our own lives and yes there are those who choose not to expose the lifestyel that they lead and that is ok. As for myself....I am very open about my lifestyle and I live it every day.
I think they we are who we make ourselves into. If you consider yourself dark or sick and twisted don't label the rest of us.


sunshine

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slavesunshine

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RE: Vanilla to Twisted Spectrum - 11/9/2007 10:14:20 AM   
Padriag


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quote:

ORIGINAL: chellekitty

so why are we so afraid to be somewhere in the middle? is it the balancing act?

I think some are so busy searching for an understanding of what they are, that they don't know what else to do.  Not so much fear as a bit of insecurity, being unsure of just where they "fit".  People like knowing how things work, how they fit together, we give names to things as a literal act of taking power over those things.  We label ourselves and each other because we're trying to impose our will, our own sense of order on them.

quote:

either i am vanilla or i am sick and twisted?

In the minds of some, I'm sure that's true.  But the first question is what are we in our own minds? 

quote:

i gotta have a rock to stand on and i am definately not vanilla, so i will be sick and twisted?
none of those?

Be whatever you want.

quote:

what do you think?

Its ironic this should come up since its something I've been pondering myself lately.  Labels are a funny thing, we use them to help us define things and understand them... including ourselves... and to convey that to others.  Are we vanilla or dark?  Are we dominants, submissives or switches?  Masters or slaves?  We use labels all the time, most of us have no problem labelling ourselves heterosexual, bisexual or homosexual, and I think that's because those labels have been around for so long they're very well understood.  But all these "BDSM" labels are still relatively new, historically speaking... and so they are far less defined or understood.  Thus we get all kinds of debates about what they mean because rather than having a fairly fixed social definition, for most of us they foremost have a personal definition... and your definition may not be mine.

In my blog for the last month I've mused about the terms "master" and "slave" and what they mean to me... what's my personal defintion, what's that inner mental image to which I attach these terms?  Its been an interesting line of thought and I've found that as I explored my own personal mental images... those terms fit less and less... like pair of pants bought one size too large.  The irony is that we create labels not just to define things, but also to help us communicate, and that's part of the problem.  I think for many of us the labels seem "one size too large" and yet, if we are not this or that... what are we, and how do we explain it to others?  I think too, we sometimes push our labels onto others as much to validate what we are trying to explain about ourselves as we are trying to define who someone else is.  I know there have been times I've been guilty of that, pushing my definitions onto others when in reality what I was really trying to do is get others to recognize that inner mental image of myself. 

Maybe that's all there is to all the fuss over labels... we're all just trying to figure out who we are and who everyone else is and where we all fit in all of that... and each doing it in our own clumsy way.  Perhaps a hundred years from now people will talking about being dominant or submissive with the same level of comfort people today talking about being hetrosexual or homosexual... one of these days when its still not so new and the mental images aren't quite so out of focus.



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A stern discipline pervades all nature, which is a little cruel so that it may be very kind - Edmund Spencer

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RE: Vanilla to Twisted Spectrum - 11/9/2007 10:41:53 AM   
RCdc


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quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation

Well fuck me with a feather, i can't even tell when someone is agreeing with me and i with them. Wonder if someone has slipped something in my coffee
Sorry Chelle lol.


Pffft... I need the weekend to recover I think...
loveup to chelle
 
the.dark.

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RE: Vanilla to Twisted Spectrum - 11/9/2007 10:43:57 AM   
RCdc


Posts: 8674
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Padriag

quote:

ORIGINAL: chellekitty

so why are we so afraid to be somewhere in the middle? is it the balancing act?

I think some are so busy searching for an understanding of what they are, that they don't know what else to do.  Not so much fear as a bit of insecurity, being unsure of just where they "fit".  People like knowing how things work, how they fit together, we give names to things as a literal act of taking power over those things.  We label ourselves and each other because we're trying to impose our will, our own sense of order on them.

quote:

either i am vanilla or i am sick and twisted?

In the minds of some, I'm sure that's true.  But the first question is what are we in our own minds? 

quote:

i gotta have a rock to stand on and i am definately not vanilla, so i will be sick and twisted?
none of those?

Be whatever you want.

quote:

what do you think?

Are we vanilla or dark? 



Yup.  Dark.   I am definately .dark.
 
the.dark.

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love isnt gazing into each others eyes - it's looking forward in the same direction

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RE: Vanilla to Twisted Spectrum - 11/9/2007 11:02:19 AM   
Vanatru


Posts: 300
Joined: 4/16/2004
Status: offline 		chelle, I would think you would only be afraid of being seen somewhere in the middle if you were concerned how you were viewed by others. At least, that's the only thing I can see why. I never really pushed to be accepted by any particular group. But I'm thinking that is the question you are asking, why someone would be uncomfortable about being seen somewhere less than extremes.

I know there has been some discussions of what boxes people fit into, but by the very nature of these lifestyle choices, boxes become irrelevant, and at best, can only define a particular niche (or cliche) of people. For those that love neat and orderly, it must really play hell with their psyche.

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RE: Vanilla to Twisted Spectrum - 11/9/2007 11:46:11 AM   
bipolarber


Posts: 2792
Joined: 9/25/2004
Status: offline 		Well, we DO have to worry about how we are seen by others, Vanatru. Your reputation within the larger community impacts on how easily you can find and hold a decent job, if you can find a babysitter, if you can continue to belong to a church of your choice, or be cast out. It can impact your family too... how many times are your kids going to get beat up at school, because "your parents are perverts?" Some of us can be "out" to our friends and relatives, but that doesn't mean we won't still face a lot of discrimination from the community at large.

We don't live on some fantasy planet. This is Earth. We live in the United States in the early 21st century. Our lives often depend on being regaurded as good citizens, respected, and being seen by others as NOT "sick and twisted." Thus the work that the BDSM community had done, and is STILL doing, trying to better our position legally.

The problem is, (to use your example) we don't get to choose what boxes we inhabit. Those are chosen for us by our neighbors, the police, and our religious leaders. We still live in a situation where a bad night of play (where the cops get called) can result in being branded with a scarlet "A" the size of which Hawthorne never deampt of! So, we have to make sure the box is something we can live in. Otherwise the box becomes a cell... and all we'll be able to do is watch from the sidelines as the rest of the world (the real world) parades by, leaving us behind. I look forward to the day where being known as being into kink is about as scandalous as being left handed. But we aint there yet.

chelle, the reason the balancing act has a hard time staying in the middle is that some people from the outside won't accept us. So, some of us adopt a radical extreme position about sexuality, and are very vocal about getting things changed. (The "in your face" stradgedy.) Others, who have a lot to lose, (home, children, family, community) try to keep their heads down while projecting the idea that it's all just as normal as Mom, apple pie and Chevrolet. (The "Nobody in here but us chickens" approach.)

Persoanlly, I take Pat Califia's suggestion to heart: when you call yourself a pervert, and admit that what you do is deviant, what does that leave your enemies to hurt you with? Nothing!

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RE: Vanilla to Twisted Spectrum - 11/9/2007 12:39:13 PM   
Tigrita


Posts: 484
Joined: 8/16/2007
From: California
Status: offline 		Hrm, I'm a little confused too, but I'll take a stab and let chelle decide if I'm agreeing with her or not ;)

If I ran into someone from a play party in the vanilla world, my head wouldn't explode.  I've been having lots of discussions about wiitwd with my vanilla gal pal on our Tuesday/Thursday lunch dates on campus at the university where I work.  I assume no one in the viscinity knows what shibari is or cares (or is paying enough attention to realize) that I'm talking about my Man and my girl, but if they did, I'm obviously cool with it.  So I'm totally happy in the middle. 

I do have those moments though when I realize how aparently abmormal I am though, but I just laugh about it and enjy it.  Had a chuckle the other day with Charlotte at how screwed up we are when I told her how happy I was that Stephan ordered me to suffer in the cold without my sweater to go get a cup of coffee across campus rather than make a pot in the office... and that's a pretty tame form of suffering.  Eh, we are what we are =)

~ J

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~ Tigrita

There is no right path, only the path you take.

Success is making life happen, versus just letting life happen to you.

"Many of the things I enjoy, I enjoy because I don't enjoy them." - Charlotte

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RE: Vanilla to Twisted Spectrum - 11/9/2007 12:48:23 PM   
Padriag


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Joined: 3/30/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

quote:

ORIGINAL: Padriag

quote:

what do you think?

Are we vanilla or dark? 



Yup.  Dark.   I am definately .dark.
 
the.dark.

But if you're dark, what am I?   Wait... don't answer that...

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Padriag

A stern discipline pervades all nature, which is a little cruel so that it may be very kind - Edmund Spencer

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RE: Vanilla to Twisted Spectrum - 11/9/2007 12:56:40 PM   
chellekitty


Posts: 3923
Joined: 3/27/2005
Status: offline 		ok let me try and rephrase my questions...lol...and they might come out as statements...

i don't get why people think they have to use extremes of the spectrum to rationalize and justify being kinky...on either end...

this is perfectly normal, everyone does it they just don't tell people about it, so it's ok

OR

this is so sick and twisted, i am so original, vanilla people could never understand me, so it's ok

neither of the statements is logical, because they are not true...yes, it's ok...but it doesn't matter because what you're basing it on is false so the statement is illogical...anyway....thats what i was trying to get at....does that help?

chelle


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One thing I know: the only ones among you who will be really happy are those who will have sought and found how to serve. ~Albert Schweitzer

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