RE: Why do sub/slaves not want to be called what they have declared they are?

RE: Why do sub/slaves not want to be called what they have declared they are? (Full Version)

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doubleLeo -> RE: Why do sub/slaves not want to be called what they have declared they are? (8/16/2005 1:56:37 PM)
I agree..one part is etiquette- simply put: what others are comfortable with in terms of conversation. But when I reflect on my own experience, I am not so effected by others choice of title for me..it is only when the words RING true when it really means something to me. Its not so much what I am called, but by whom. dL "Everyone hears what you say. Friends listen to what you say. Best friends listen to what you don't say." ~unknown

sirrand -> RE: Why do sub/slaves not want to be called what they have declared they are? (8/18/2005 6:25:28 AM)
quote: "I would think if you were truly looking that would be your attitude." "This seems that this sub/slave has learned her lessons well." "I suppose I misjudged the level of commitment of quite a few of the purported sub/slaves." "Putting sub/slave at the top over time evolved into a test of their commitment." I personally SUPPORT making informed judgements about people...but it seems very strange for you to make a proclamation that you never judge after all these statements...or is it just me? ES2 your right, to some those may seem like judgements but as one who uses data to assess the situation and build systems to deal with that knowledge, assessment is truly not a judgement but a best guess of what the patteren means. “This seems, I suppose, a test,” is my way of saying the picture from my eyes looks like this. Being very nearsighted, (physical thing not a state of mine) I am always questioning those around me as to what I am seeing is what they see. My firends say I am to emphatic in what I say but in truth all I am emphatic about is describing what I see not judgeing if it is real. Also it is a statement of what the pattern I see means to me. If in your world that is judging I suppose then it is judgeing. Data makes a picture, not enough data makes an incomplete picture and it is yours and mines best guess as to what the picture means. I think that is why I asked the question to get more data. And I think all again for responding the elephant is becoming clearer. SR

IronBear -> RE: Why do sub/slaves not want to be called what they have declared they are? (8/18/2005 6:34:08 AM)
quote: ES2 your right, to some those may seem like judgements but as one who uses data to assess the situation and build systems to deal with that knowledge, assessment is truly not a judgement but a best guess of what the patteren means. “This seems, I suppose, a test,” is my way of saying the picture from my eyes looks like this. Being very nearsighted, (physical thing not a state of mine) I am always questioning those around me as to what I am seeing is what they see. My firends say I am to emphatic in what I say but in truth all I am emphatic about is describing what I see not judgeing if it is real. Also it is a statement of what the pattern I see means to me. If in your world that is judging I suppose then it is judgeing. Data makes a picture, not enough data makes an incomplete picture and it is yours and mines best guess as to what the picture means. I think that is why I asked the question to get more data. And I think all again for responding the elephant is becoming clearer. SR I can live with that. I try not to be too judgemental but for so many years I've had to make judgement calls based on the data I have. Sometimes these calls have been critical to survival and at others it was simply which NFL game to watch (If Dallas were involved there is no contest I'm a Cowboy fan through and through...) Like you (I believe) I dont judge the person but the scane or events.

EmeraldSlave2 -> RE: Why do sub/slaves not want to be called what they have declared they are? (8/18/2005 9:10:25 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sirrand If in your world that is judging I suppose then it is judgeing. Data makes a picture, not enough data makes an incomplete picture and it is yours and mines best guess as to what the picture means. I think that is why I asked the question to get more data. And I think all again for responding the elephant is becoming clearer. SR To me the really TELLING statement is the one you made which is: "I suppose I misjudged the level of commitment of quite a few of the purported sub/slaves." You USE the word "misjudged" which means you felt you DID INDEED previously judge something, by whatever definition YOU consider judging, and then inexplicable say later that you very much NEVER judge anything as it's not your place. The amusing thing is that this statement is where you really judged the worst and most flagrantly- suggesting that you feel many of us subs/slaves are not only who we say we are, but that we aren't who we say we are because we don't take kindly to strangers taking familiarities with us lightly. Of ALL the judgemental statements you've made in this thread that really was the kicker. And you yourself used the word "misjudged." NOW you're being semantic about assessment/judgement.

Angrylibrarian -> RE: Why do sub/slaves not want to be called what they have declared they are? (8/18/2005 9:38:50 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: perverseangelic quote: ORIGINAL: sirrand My mother raised me to be a southern gentleman but to be a good Dom/Master some of that training has to go out the window. Why? Being polite and a gentleman is NOT being "undominant." Not doing something you want to do, because of what others would think -is- being "undominant" in my view. It pleases my partner to open doors for me. Does that make the opening of doors a submissive action? Nope. He did it 'cause he wanted to do it. im still reading this thread but I wanted to point out that not once but several times being polite and well mannered has earned me the disdain of 'the hardcore' slut I was chasing. Personally I get ticked off about it because I'm an extremely confidant man with a lot of things to offer a woman and it's ridiculous that people online reject one another over syntax. Just fucking make some time to have some coffee with me dammit! [:D]. Its not crazy to just meet each other! Ive got frequent flyer miles for crying out loud. [:)]

arayofsunshine55 -> RE: Why do sub/slaves not want to be called what they have declared they are? (8/18/2005 1:29:46 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sirrand quote: "I would think if you were truly looking that would be your attitude." "This seems that this sub/slave has learned her lessons well." "I suppose I misjudged the level of commitment of quite a few of the purported sub/slaves." "Putting sub/slave at the top over time evolved into a test of their commitment." I personally SUPPORT making informed judgements about people...but it seems very strange for you to make a proclamation that you never judge after all these statements...or is it just me? ES2 your right, to some those may seem like judgements but as one who uses data to assess the situation and build systems to deal with that knowledge, assessment is truly not a judgement but a best guess of what the patteren means. “This seems, I suppose, a test,” is my way of saying the picture from my eyes looks like this. Being very nearsighted, (physical thing not a state of mine) I am always questioning those around me as to what I am seeing is what they see. My firends say I am to emphatic in what I say but in truth all I am emphatic about is describing what I see not judgeing if it is real. Also it is a statement of what the pattern I see means to me. If in your world that is judging I suppose then it is judgeing. Data makes a picture, not enough data makes an incomplete picture and it is yours and mines best guess as to what the picture means. I think that is why I asked the question to get more data. And I think all again for responding the elephant is becoming clearer. SR But since we are all different, the data may just be saying that this person is not the type of submissive or slave that interests you. That this person is not compatible with you. And incompatibility is a relative concept. Some tend to mistake incompatibility with "realness." I hate that term but I hope you understand what I'm saying.

BenevoleMasterFL -> RE: Why do sub/slaves not want to be called what they have declared they are? (8/19/2005 10:51:33 AM)
I would think it VERY RUDE to address a lady by anything other than her name until you, as a male, are allowed to do otherwise. She will always let you know when it's time. Women still rule the world. So, be warned that it's that way until you, as a male, are given permission to do otherwise.

ChainedAngel -> RE: Why do sub/slaves not want to be called what they have declared they are? (8/19/2005 5:23:29 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Isolde Does she know you're sharing her emails here? You may want to ask if that's allowed, I'm not sure if it's all right to do that. I do now, lol. It doesn't bother me though, because I wasn't acting like an idiot in my responses to this person. I gave my opinion, and I am rather pleased that it sparked such a long discussion.

LordODiscipline -> RE: Why do sub/slaves not want to be called what they have declared they are? (8/19/2005 8:59:40 PM)
The fact is - Some people who declare themselves "submissive" (or, perhaps "slave") do not take the term seriously, are not what they portend to be, and may (in fact) simply enjoy the element of role play that is involved in the whole personna and the associated mystique involved in a life that they never will have, and, do not really desire. Let's call a 'spade a spade' - there are some folks that lie to others to further their fantasys, and, some that lie to themselves about who they really are. I understand someone (as you ascribe) who would create turmoil to get a desired reaction (correction, if you will) from somoen they are interested in, or, with whom they have this sort of relationship. We all know these folks, in and out of the lifestyle. I can;t fathom wy people do this - but, hey, if it makes them happily miserable - that is their issue (I mean 'business'). But, there are also those people who I consider to be simply going through the motions, who learn the lingo, and talk the talk... and, nothing more. No need to concern yourself about them... that is why God (Bill Gates) created the delete button and we have that uncannily human ability to ignore idiots. ~J

LordODiscipline -> RE: Why do sub/slaves not want to be called what they have declared they are? (8/19/2005 9:02:21 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BenevoleMasterFL I would think it VERY RUDE to address a lady by anything other than her name until you, as a male, are allowed to do otherwise. She will always let you know when it's time. Women still rule the world. So, be warned that it's that way until you, as a male, are given permission to do otherwise. I hope this is a 'tongue in cheek' exposition. ~J

ElektraUkM -> RE: Why do sub/slaves not want to be called what they have declared they are? (8/21/2005 4:57:09 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LordODiscipline The fact is - Some people who declare themselves "submissive" (or, perhaps "slave") do not take the term seriously... But that's at the core of this discussion. I call myself a slave. I AM Master's slave. This thread is about what you find it permissable/comfortable/legitimate for Others to call One! There is a very definite distinction there. I would be extremely happy for you, or anyone else, to refer to me as 'a slave' (because that is what I am). What I object to is being called 'slave' by anyone else but Master. To do so is, at the very least, disrespectful to the One who actually does own me. ~ Elektra

IronBear -> RE: Why do sub/slaves not want to be called what they have declared they are? (8/21/2005 6:38:28 AM)
quote: There is a very definite distinction there. I would be extremely happy for you, or anyone else, to refer to me as 'a slave' (because that is what I am). What I object to is being called 'slave' by anyone else but Master. To do so is, at the very least, disrespectful to the One who actually does own me. ~ Elektra That Electra, is an excelent post. Well written and concisely put. Brava!

sultryvoice -> RE: Why do sub/slaves not want to be called what they have declared they are? (8/21/2005 9:28:18 AM)
This, to me, is the answer and to the point. All these posts have alluded to this all throughout. It's just that Elektra put it in fewer, straightforward words for all to understand more clearly. I don't like the word "protocol" but it's plain and simple etiquette, whether it be in the D/s or vanilla worlds.. Respectfully, sultry

sirrand -> RE: Why do sub/slaves not want to be called what they have declared they are? (8/22/2005 8:46:47 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ChainedAngel quote: ORIGINAL: Isolde Does she know you're sharing her emails here? You may want to ask if that's allowed, I'm not sure if it's all right to do that. I do now, lol. It doesn't bother me though, because I wasn't acting like an idiot in my responses to this person. I gave my opinion, and I am rather pleased that it sparked such a long discussion. quote: I do now, lol. It doesn't bother me though, because I wasn't acting like an idiot in my responses to this person. I gave my opinion, and I am rather pleased that it sparked such a long discussion. CA Yes you were one of the ones that said that, albeit one very articulate one, and I'm pleased too. It was just strange too me so I asked the question. Now the data is becoming clearer. Most have been very passionate about their opinions. So what I'm seeing is that a Dom/Master has no right to call a sub/slave a sub/slave unless they are their sub/slave. (My English teacher is rolling over in her grave. I hope it was out of the wet spot.) LordODiscipline re-stated my quandary very well when he said: Some people who declare themselves "submissive" (or, perhaps "slave") do not take the term seriously, are not what they portend to be, and may (in fact) simply enjoy the element of role play that is involved in the whole personna and the associated mystique involved in a life that they never will have, and, do not really desire. Let's call a 'spade a spade' - there are some folks that lie to others to further their fantasys, and, some that lie to themselves about who they really are. So, ladies/girls/subs/slaves (pick one that best suits you), how best should a Dom/Master assess a new to 'The Life' sub/slave/switch/wannabe persons level of commitment? So I and other Dom/Masters do not misjudge and a connection that might have been fulfilling to both is not ruined by a lack of knowledge/data/information or manners. Sir Rand A used to be diehard Cowboy fan. Sorry Iron they can’t play worth crap any more. (If Dom/Masters are not empirical are they bad Dom/Masters? Question for another tread)

EmeraldSlave2 -> RE: Why do sub/slaves not want to be called what they have declared they are? (8/22/2005 9:27:02 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sirrand So, ladies/girls/subs/slaves (pick one that best suits you), how best should a Dom/Master assess a new to 'The Life' sub/slave/switch/wannabe persons level of commitment? So I and other Dom/Masters do not misjudge and a connection that might have been fulfilling to both is not ruined by a lack of knowledge/data/information or manners. Sir Rand Well you don't judge remember? So you won't have to worry about misjudging. Anyway, the only way to get to know this is the only that has EVER worked- time, communication and observation.

perverseangelic -> RE: Why do sub/slaves not want to be called what they have declared they are? (8/22/2005 9:44:21 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sirrand So, ladies/girls/subs/slaves (pick one that best suits you), how best should a Dom/Master assess a new to 'The Life' sub/slave/switch/wannabe persons level of commitment? So I and other Dom/Masters do not misjudge and a connection that might have been fulfilling to both is not ruined by a lack of knowledge/data/information or manners. Get to know the person, of course! no matter what anyone says there are -no- silly, five minute tests that determine how compatable someone is with you. Honestly, "level of commitment" to me, reads "compatability" becase it is often the case that incompatability between individuals is read as insincerity. God only knows how often I've been told I am not committed to WIITWD because I don't match their expectations. The only way to know whether or not a person has the kind of commitment that suits you is to spend time getting to know that person.

DesertRat -> RE: Why do sub/slaves not want to be called what they have declared they are? (8/22/2005 9:57:37 AM)
Sir Rand: "So, ladies/girls/subs/slaves (pick one that best suits you), how best should a Dom/Master assess a new to 'The Life' sub/slave/switch/wannabe persons level of commitment? So I and other Dom/Masters do not misjudge and a connection that might have been fulfilling to both is not ruined by a lack of knowledge/data/information or manners. " Gee, how about talking to them? I think that's been said once or twice in this thread. It's the same method they would use to determine whether you are really a Dom/Master. Just because you call yourself one doesn't mean you are. Whether you are or aren't, no special rights are conferred on you, in any case. You need to talk to other people as though they are...well, people...and not part of a demographic defined by you. But, hey, Rand, feel free to keep banging your head against this wall for as long as you like. Keep asking the same thing over and over and maybe you will hear an answer that will sink in. Bob

Isolde -> RE: Why do sub/slaves not want to be called what they have declared they are? (8/22/2005 10:00:18 AM)
I get the impression that he'll listen now that another gentleman/boy/dominant/master has repeated the answer for him. Ah well, so long as he hears it.

DesertRat -> RE: Why do sub/slaves not want to be called what they have declared they are? (8/22/2005 1:30:49 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Isolde I get the impression that he'll listen now that another gentleman/boy/dominant/master has repeated the answer for him. Ah well, so long as he hears it. You think? Bob

sirrand -> RE: Why do sub/slaves not want to be called what they have declared they are? (8/23/2005 5:15:52 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DesertRat quote: ORIGINAL: Isolde I get the impression that he'll listen now that another gentleman/boy/dominant/master has repeated the answer for him. Ah well, so long as he hears it. You think? Bob II think so Bob, I got it a long time ago as you well noted on the 2nd page but it seems that nobody got the joke I was making about our communities use of labels. I am very serious about my Mastership, for the lack of a better term. but I am not serious about labels. If names will do then we should use names. If labels are called for we should use labels. Some say they are a sub not a slave, I even saw one profile that said they where a pet not a sub or a slave. A rose by any other name, I suppose. I call my sub/slaves what ever they have deemed there mindset was at the time they asked to join my stable out of respect for there choice, but as you have so eloquently said "I am a Master just not your Master." I feel the same but so many profiles and further emails were tainted by the use of labels that I thought it best if this discussion took place. ES2 I am I wrong or do you just not like me? I like you and your feisty comments. Bob we may have taken this as far as we can I don't know maybe not enough of our community has spoken. Sir Rand

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