RE: -=TPE - no limits total submission, fact or fiction?=- (Full Version)

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MadRabbit -> RE: -=TPE - no limits total submission, fact or fiction?=- (11/11/2007 6:07:59 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ResidentSadist

Reply – Having personal limits and imposing them on the rules of a relationship are … well limiting.  I thought the opening line of the OP expressly acknowledged that there are limits, self imposed or not.  Using gravity and a slave’s ability to fly is a pretty good example of limits.  The point was about the reality of TPE and negotiated limits being a sign that something is amiss. 


And this is what led to my rather sardonic reply.

Plenty of people narrate their relationship in these terms. I personally see nothing wrong with it.

However, if we are going to have a discussion about the realities of the relationship, as opposed to the fantasy-psycho perspectives of the two individuals in the relationship, this stuff always seems out of place to me....

Because...if I use my awesome no limits power to tell my girl to do something that is against her hard limits/boundaries and she really really really really doesn't want to do it, I'm pretty sure she is not going to.

And if I use my uber no limits power to bring harm upon her and she has some sense of self esteem and self respect, she might just pack up her bags and give me the finger on her way out the door, whether or not I have "released" her.

If in both cases, I do anything more than show her the door or let her leave, I could be earning myself the label of an "abuser" and if I go too far, the "consent to non consent" stuff isn't going to score me any points with the cops.






Cyntilating -> RE: -=TPE - no limits total submission, fact or fiction?=- (11/11/2007 6:09:26 PM)

KOM
{ The Relationship comes First!  Build it... Know the person you are with.  Understand ones needs and wants.  Look to the character of the person.  Build this relatioship... and the authority structure will be so much easier}

I absolutely agree..



ResidentSadist -> RE: -=TPE - no limits total submission, fact or fiction?=- (11/11/2007 6:09:48 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: cheeky1p.s.  RS, what "power" did you give up when you entered your power exchange? I'm curious.  Am I wrong in assuming that you didn't exchange anything, but that you only received your power from the sub or slave?


Dear cheeky,
I wasn’t supposed to give up any power.  I was supposed to “give” my authority.  To help your understanding of what TPE means, I give you this snippet for the encyclopedia:   

Master/slave or M/s relationships are a special case of dominance/submission, in which the dominant has ultimate authority over the submissive. Many practitioners of M/s believe that ownership of slaves is based on an inescapable emotional state, such as total power exchange (TPE).



cheeky1 -> RE: -=TPE - no limits total submission, fact or fiction?=- (11/11/2007 6:45:22 PM)

1)  My last post regarding "transferring" vs "exchange" was so eloquently expressed by KOM and others. I looked up "exchange" in the dictionary just to be sure I hadn't missed anything in the context. But there does have to be something reciprocated for an exchange to take place. I think the standard line "well i give back my dominance" or "i give my sub/slave attention and time" is often used to imply there was an actual exchange.  I've grown so tired of  this comment. So few dominants actually feel accountable for their sub and instead use this line to be able to righteously be able to say "i'm in control, that's how it is". Spending a lot of time with your sub/slave can be for the dom's purposes only. The intent is what makes it either a selfish or unselfish motivation.
 
 KOM, you seem to know exactly where the differences and nuances lay. Thank you for being a breath of fresh air. BDSM is not somewhere that male chauvinism or control issues need to hide.
 
2)  I find it interesting that the word "power" is only used in the convenient sense of the word (i.e. the definition that implies "authority").  There are many definitions of the word power such as personal power (i.e. our capability to be incredible beings, etc.) or our creative power, intuitive power, spiritual power, etc. Imagine if two people in a relationship exchanged their personal power! What a relationship that would be! What if they exchanged their creative powers... the world's best brainstorming centre! What if their spiritual powers were exchanged... they would know each other's inner spirit to a huge magnitude!
 
An "exchange" can be as simple as a conversation. Can we "talk" about our powers?  To me, this would be the best possible TPE OR "relationship" I can imagine.  To simply think of "power" as the right to make our own decisions, seems so limiting.
 
3)  Further "pollute this thread"? I'm with impgrrl, that was just rude, if not a touch pompous. Was that really needed in a thread about tpe? I think not.
 
4) I don't think that because you have the same limits as your dominant, your limit is no longer a limit. It's merely one that doesn't need to be expressed in that particular relationship as much, but it is STILL a limit. (Can't remember who mentioned this, but I wanted to mention this, because it is important to remember we all do have limits, even in a slave or sub relationship.)
 
5. 
quote:

ORIGINAL: ResidentSadist

On the other hand I have seen perfectly functional mis-categorized relationships because all involved shared common misinterpretations of the terms.    

quote:


Reply - I disagree and rely on the dictionary, the encyclopedia and the DSM for my understanding of terms.  If we all though the word “female” had a different meaning, we would not be able to communicate.
 
What if we used a dictionary different than yours? What if your encyclopedia was 20 years out of date and we had a newer one?  Who has the ultimate list on which references are the correct ones?
 
RS, this seems pretty one sided to me. Why not imagine in your world that sometimes people are also "right" in their own definitions of the word? Words evolve each and every day. Where "irregardless" was not considered a word years ago, today it's in some dictionaries. For you to imply there is only one way to look at things because you got it from a dictionary or whatever, means you are closed to people's perceptions of definitions, evolvement of words and phrases, and what people mean in their words but may not have said in the exact terms you can understand.
 
as to the term "woman".. um.  ok. I'm stifling a "duh" here I'm afraid. Let me be really clear.  With something tangible (i.e. you can touch it, feel it, find a picture of it) it's fairly easy to figure out what something is definition-wise. With something like an intangible (i.e. TPE) which is a concept?  It will have MANY wide parameters as to it's meaning. Yours will only be ONE of them, and not necessarily the BEST one, never mind the "right" one. Sorry, but that's just a fact I'm afraid.
 
6)
quote:

I thought the opening line of the OP expressly acknowledged that there are limits, self imposed or not.  Using gravity and a slave’s ability to fly is a pretty good example of limits.  The point was about the reality of TPE and negotiated limits being a sign that something is amiss. 

 
Well, as much as you say let's compare apples to apples, this just seems to be non-congruent with that wish of yours.  First you say there is NO LIMITS in tpe.. (i double checked your post). Now you say you were implying of course there are some limits.  I think you can understand why the confusion and why some of the posters here may have argued that post?
 
Perhaps you should clarify one way or another.  Are there, or are there NOT limits in a tpe, in your opinion?
 
7)  KOM, I loved how you addressed the transfer of authority topic.  I'm wondering how you would answer this dilemma I've had while "researching" doms (as opposed to searching for them, I suppose. *S*)   If I am someone that would like to be submissive to my chosen dom (also would need to be a soulmate according to my own wishes.), do I need to give up the right to help make decisions then? Is it actually possible I can still be submissive or even a slave and have a partnership that is an even exchange?

8)  along the same lines of the preceding point,  sweetnurse said "Why would you be involved with someone in the first place if you questioned their judgment?

If i questioned all their judgement, then I wouldn't be a match for someone, that is true. However, it wouldn't mean I would necessarily give away all my power to someone else. I consider myself a very smart, intuitive woman who is able to make extremely wise decisions. Because I'm submissive and like that part of me a LOT, doesn't mean necessarily that I have to have someone else take total control of all my decisions, does it?
 
What happens to the submissives that are smarter than their dominant? The dominant may have other incredible things he brings to the relationship other than intelligence, no?
 
This is a very tough logic for me to figure out and I hope KOM and others can offer some perspectives on this situation where the submissive may be brighter than the dominant? Thx..



Solinear -> RE: -=TPE - no limits total submission, fact or fiction?=- (11/11/2007 6:50:47 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kyraofMists

quote:

ORIGINAL: ResidentSadist

quote:

ORIGINAL: kyraofMists
I have never understood the term Total Power Exchange.  To me it is a misnomer.  What exactly is being exchanged?  Following the term literally, the slave is giving all their power to the master and the master is giving their power to the slave.  Not sure how that sets one person up as having authority within the relationship.

Authority transfer works better and makes more sense to me.  He has all the authority within the relationship.  I transfer it all to him.  He does not exchange any authority with me.

Power is authority.  What you describe is very similar to my understanding of TPE.  You said, “I transfer it all to him”.  In that case, it sounds like TPE to me.


But he does not exchange authority with me.  He gets the authority and I do not; there is no exchange, no quid pro quo in regards to authority or power.  This is why I consider the term to be meaningless to me.

Knight's Kyra


Honestly, while I understand your argument - it's much like the people who say that the term "Polyamory" doesn't work because 'poly' is greek and 'amore' is latin (I not too infrequently point this out when people get all semantic).  Everyone in both communities understands what their respective terms actually mean and nit picking frequently means close to nothing other than that you (and almost nobody else) cares about the nit. 



cheeky1 -> RE: -=TPE - no limits total submission, fact or fiction?=- (11/11/2007 6:54:32 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ResidentSadist

I wasn’t supposed to give up any power.  I was supposed to “give” my authority.  To help your understanding of what TPE means, I give you this snippet for the encyclopedia:   

Master/slave or M/s relationships are a special case of dominance/submission, in which the dominant has ultimate authority over the submissive. Many practitioners of M/s believe that ownership of slaves is based on an inescapable emotional state, such as total power exchange (TPE).


RS,
Supposed to?  hmmmm still feeling that "i'm right because" tone in your posts.  I don't really enjoy feeling that tone, if i'm to be honest.
 
Thank you for clarifying though. You didn't "exchange" then, you simply received. My understanding of TPE is actually quite clear. And I thank you for explaining to me YOUR understanding of it, even though I was pretty clear on that as well, from reading your numerous posts.
 
No idea what encyclopedia that was "for"?  I'm guessing that we all are to be convinced it's the encyclopedia that is entirely correct for all of us?
 
Amid my sarcasm RS, I hope you can see what I'm saying here.  Your answers don't necessarily apply to every relationship. Your definitions are not necessarily the correct answer for anyone, actually. We all evolve and make our own decisions and define ourselves as we live our life.
 
If i were to follow your lead i would say, "You "should" remember that".  But I won't..  *smile*
 
~cheeky



KnightofMists -> RE: -=TPE - no limits total submission, fact or fiction?=- (11/11/2007 6:58:08 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: cheeky1


What happens to the submissives that are smarter than their dominant? The dominant may have other incredible things he brings to the relationship other than intelligence, no?
 
This is a very tough logic for me to figure out and I hope KOM and others can offer some perspectives on this situation where the submissive may be brighter than the dominant? Thx..



Ask and you shall receive *w*

If we judged Intelligence by our IQ.. well.. it's Alandra, Kyra and then me.  So... I guess that makes me the dummy of the group.

Soooo.... Now.. I have all the authority.. so all I need to do.. is be Smart enough to delegate the decision or get the opinion of someone that that is smarter than me on the given issue.

In my opinion, One of the failings of Dominants is the idea they must make all decisions.. control everything etc etc etc.

Well ..We only need exercise our authority effectively to get the results wanted.. and sometimes the effective thing to do is delegate the decision to get those results.

The important thing is not to Exercise Authority.... the Important thing is to get the RESULTS one wants!!



cheeky1 -> RE: -=TPE - no limits total submission, fact or fiction?=- (11/11/2007 7:02:36 PM)

KOM... thank you!   and this is interesting...
 
1) so a submissive that is smarter than their dominant needs to find the dom that is ok with delegating decisions then?
 
and
 
2)  What if the sub wants to have control over some results herself (i.e. as well as the dom wanting results?)  Will it always be the dom that has the "final say"?
 
 



Solinear -> RE: -=TPE - no limits total submission, fact or fiction?=- (11/11/2007 7:11:43 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

quote:

ORIGINAL: MystressDream


"he gives nothing in return; he only accepts what is being given to him."???   Interesting.  So, you are telling us she gets NOTHING from her Master.  He doesn't provide her with guidance, caring, comittment, or even love?  She gives him everything she is... body, mind and soul, and he just sits there and takes it all without providing her a single thing in return?  Wow...
 
Doesn't he provide her the opportunity to devote herself to him and dedicate herself to serving him and any and all of his needs?  If that isn't the driving factor either, please explain? 
 
This is not meant to be sarcastic.  I am seriously wanting to try to understand this particular mindset.


In any relationship their is Transfer, Exchange and Sharing

she gives Commitment  and I give Commitment... an exchange
she give Devotion and I give Devotion... an exchange
she gives llove and I give Love... an exchange....


Most intimate relationships that are successful will do all these things and more  This exchange is a fundamental reason why we enter into a relationship with another.  This has nothing to do with the power transfer.  How the the Authority of the relationship functions is another issue all together.

She gives Authority becuase of the character I am as a person and also in part because of who she is.  She gives it to me.. because bottom line... she doesn't want it and I do.. neither Kyra or Alandra want the authority.  They demonstrate the giving authority by being obedient.  I provide opportunities for them to give this authority. 

I don't believe this this is a one time event.  Consent to me is continuous.  Each and every choice they make to obey is transfering authority.  They choose not to consent.. authority ends immediately and so does the M/s dynamic.

Most people tend to meld all this into one. Well frankly.. other relationship styles.. Exchange Trust, Commitments, Love  etc etc etc  And they even do it completely and totally.


However.. Authority within a given relationship can follow several structures.

1 - One-sided...  One person makes all the decisions

2 - Joint.. both sides must agree on the choice .. each have a veto

3 - Sharing... decisions are divided into groups.. partner A does this group.. partner B does this group.

4 - Joint/Sharing - this is hybrid of the two.  in that in some areas it will be a joint decision and in others Partner A or B will make the decision.

To me the reasons of what structure is used is based on who actually wants the authority in the first place.  Totally or in part.  Some say they give it X.. because of Trust.  Frankly... you in the relationship because you trust the person... but you give authority becuase you don't want it.. or you receive/take authority because you want it.  It's an intrinsic motivation that we all have to some degree or another.  In the right relationship.. this internal motivation is set free.

The Key into the lock.. is the commitment, devotion etc.  But why do we go through that door when it is unlocked?  We go through because we want the authority or we don't. 



It's almost scary how you have segregated out the different portions of your relationship.  So what are they exchanging for your guidance?  Or is that a guidance transfer?

The entirety of any relationship should be (ideally) an exchange.  Everything that you give for everything that you get.  It is an equal exhcange for all, the fact that power *and* authority are part of this exchange is irrelevant and segregating everything out just seems like you're trying to figure out what things you're transferring and what things you're exchanging.  Sounds like a big ol' waste of time to me.  Everyone here knows what is meant when someone says 'TPE'.  Argue for "Complete Authority Transfer" or any other set of synonyms you prefer here for a few months and eventually you'll just get a lot of people going "OMG... that again?  STFU"

(Edit: actually mixed up the terms 'transfer' and 'exchange'... LOL)



KnightofMists -> RE: -=TPE - no limits total submission, fact or fiction?=- (11/11/2007 7:13:31 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: cheeky1
1) so a submissive that is smarter than their dominant needs to find the dom that is ok with delegating decisions then?


yes.... but also remember... just becuase in general that the submissive is smarter.. it does make the submissive smarter in all things

quote:

 
2)  What if the sub wants to have control over some results herself (i.e. as well as the dom wanting results?)  Will it always be the dom that has the "final say"?


Then the submissive negotiates a authority structure in which she will have authority or veto in the specific areas that she/he wants.  In essense this is a D/s relationship in my viewpoint.

In an M/s relationship the Master has final say.... and one of the hardest things for a slave is gracefully allow a decision to be made by the dominant that she/he things is the wrong decision.   This of course is after all the normal dialogue occurs between Master and slave before the decision is made. 

But one of the more beautiful things is a grace that slave demonstrates after the results of said decision show themself to be a rather poor.



IrishMist -> RE: -=TPE - no limits total submission, fact or fiction?=- (11/11/2007 7:18:29 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ResidentSadist

quote:

ORIGINAL: IrishMist
…et al.   


Dear IrishMist,
LOL... I can understand your sigh.  Thank you for your detailed reply. 

 Quote - “I am going to start though with your ridiculous disclaimer that M/s and D/s relationships are at opposite ends of the spectrum.”
Reply - To me M/s and D/s are not at opposite ends but, they are well defined and different enough that finding complete fulfillment in crossing over is rare.  i. e. A “perfect sub” might be miserable and unfulfilled if forced to live as a “slave” and vice versa. 

Quote - “I have seen relationships that identify as D/s that would fit more in with MY definition of slavery; and I have seen M/s relationships that have no comparison to slavery… the difference between the two is only what each individual defines between the two.”
Reply -  I agree, I have seen the same.  However, clinically, a horse is still a horse no matter what he chooses to call himself.  The same is true with BDSM relationship roles and the 100+ paraphilias under the BDSM umbrella.  On the other hand I have seen perfectly functional mis-categorized relationships because all involved shared common misinterpretations of the terms.    

Quote - “There is no universal definition for M/s; D/s relationships; nor is there one for submissives or slaves. Trying to force your own definitions on others does not change this fact.”
Reply - I disagree and rely on the dictionary, the encyclopedia and the DSM for my understanding of terms.  If we all though the word “female” had a different meaning, we would not be able to communicate.

Quote - “You say that there are no limits in TPE. I say bull shit. Everyone has limits. EVERYONE. Most will be quick to tell you that they take on the limits that their Master/Owner/Dominant imposes upon them. To do this, the Master/Owner/Dominant must already have self-imposed limits. In other words; he/she has limits; he/she places limits on the property. So, your own claim that there are no limits in TPE is negated.”
Reply – Having personal limits and imposing them on the rules of a relationship are … well limiting.  I thought the opening line of the OP expressly acknowledged that there are limits, self imposed or not.  Using gravity and a slave’s ability to fly is a pretty good example of limits.  The point was about the reality of TPE and negotiated limits being a sign that something is amiss. 

RS

I appreciate what you are trying to do here but the diversity of the people involved will not allow for it. It would not matter if you gathered every single dictionary in the world, and found every definition for every word that you wanted defined.
As long as individuals remain unique; those definitions will be reshaped and perceived as each individual applies them to their own life.

You may not agree with it; you may not like it; but it does not change the facts.

I could care less what another chooses to call themselves; I could care less how another chooses to define their own relationships; I could care less what labels they choose to stick on themselves. I know who I am; they know who they are.

It's not my place to tell them that they are wrong or that the way that they live is wrong.

I just accept each person as the unique individual that they are. That is MY reality.




KnightofMists -> RE: -=TPE - no limits total submission, fact or fiction?=- (11/11/2007 7:30:07 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Solinear

It's almost scary how you have segregated out the different portions of your relationship.  So what are they exchanging for your guidance?  Or is that a guidance transfer?


I give them guidance as they give it to me... it very much part of any basic intimate relationship between two people.  The only aspect of my relationships with my girls compared to most intimate relationship is that I have a defined authority structure in which authority is transferred from me.  I segregate this because... It is not how the Authority is divided in a relationship that will make it work or not... it's the basics that can be found in any intimate relationship.  

Now... I have never had issues of authority in my family.  It has never been a question of who has authority or power struggles.  In large part it is becauase I segregate the aspect of authority transfer and focused on building the foundation of the relationship from which it allow the  intrinsic motivation of all of us to feel secure and confident to be revealed and actualized.

quote:


The entirety of any relationship should be (ideally) an exchange.  Everything that you give for everything that you get.  It is an equal exhcange for all, the fact that power *and* authority are part of this exchange is irrelevant and segregating everything out just seems like you're trying to figure out what things you're transferring and what things you're exchanging.  Sounds like a big ol' waste of time to me.  Everyone here knows what is meant when someone says 'TPE'.  Argue for "Complete Authority Transfer" or any other set of synonyms you prefer here for a few months and eventually you'll just get a lot of people going "OMG... that again?  STFU"


Ideally any intimate relationship will have an exchange component to it or to be reciprocal.  but not everything is given with the expectation to receive something in return.   Now as I said before... I segrate not for the purpose of transfer or exchanging....  it really is irrevelent.  What is important is to understand what the basic of a successfull relationship is going to be... the authority structure is going to be built on top of that.

It might be a big waste of time for you.... But my results is being in a successful relationship with Alandra for over 20 years and approaching 3 years with Kyra.  So.... I like my Results!



KnightofMists -> RE: -=TPE - no limits total submission, fact or fiction?=- (11/11/2007 7:31:45 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: IrishMist

I just accept each person as the unique individual that they are. That is MY reality.


I like your reality



IrishMist -> RE: -=TPE - no limits total submission, fact or fiction?=- (11/11/2007 8:02:52 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

quote:

ORIGINAL: IrishMist

I just accept each person as the unique individual that they are. That is MY reality.


I like your reality

LOL it has worked for 20 years, so far... I think I will stick with it[:D]



LuckyAlbatross -> RE: -=TPE - no limits total submission, fact or fiction?=- (11/11/2007 8:53:35 PM)

YAY!!  I've waited for this day for years.  Finally a real discussion about the "power exchange" vs "authority transfer" that is NOT revved up and fed by me.  YAY!

But, since I still can't resist it, here are my main thoughts on the topic:
http://www.collarchat.com/m_516498/mpage_1/key_uat/tm.htm#517038
control vs tpe

http://www.collarchat.com/m_342044/mpage_3/key_uat/tm.htm#343397
Who's really in control?

http://www.collarchat.com/m_103815/mpage_1/key_uat%252Ctpe/tm.htm#103815
TPE = Totally Pointless Expression?



Solinear -> RE: -=TPE - no limits total submission, fact or fiction?=- (11/11/2007 10:01:56 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists


Ideally any intimate relationship will have an exchange component to it or to be reciprocal.  but not everything is given with the expectation to receive something in return.   Now as I said before... I segrate not for the purpose of transfer or exchanging....  it really is irrevelent.  What is important is to understand what the basic of a successfull relationship is going to be... the authority structure is going to be built on top of that.

It might be a big waste of time for you.... But my results is being in a successful relationship with Alandra for over 20 years and approaching 3 years with Kyra.  So.... I like my Results!


The success of your relationship is based upon whether you term it TPE or UAT/CAT/Azabazegwa?  I just don't get how what terms you use really could have anything to do with whether a relationship is successful or not.  Are you saying that the rest of your relationship with Alandra is so weak that if you had called it "TPE" it would not have been as successful (or at least 20 years)?

Rating a relationship as 'successful' or 'unsuccessful' seems completely contrary, like you had a 'pass completion' (American football)... the only problem is that while that pass will always have been a successful pass, most people seem to only consider a relationship successful while it's ongoing, then the entire relationship to have been unsuccessful the minute that it ends unless it ended because of the other partner's death.  All of my relationships have been successful to some extent or other, including my current ones.  I learned something from all of them and got what it is that I needed from all of those partners.

I have never measured whether what I am trading for what I'm getting, just whether the relationship was good for me and good for my partner.  Making sure that the relationship is good for everyone involved is what makes a relationship successful to me, not whether or not it's still in existence.  Who controls what aspects of power is as much a part of that determination as anything and can't be independent of it, as who has control of a particular portion of the relationship is integral to whether the relationship is good for each partner or not.

Don't get me wrong... if you have to explain it as something other than TPE because your ladies need to use a different term in order to accept your authority or possibly understand what is being expressed, that's fine.  The brain does not require the semantically correct terminology in order to understand.  Power means something different to everyone and it may not have anything to do with what they think of when they hear the acronym 'TPE'.  A physicist thinks of the strong and weak nuclear powers or the energy level of a subatomic particle.  A mechanical or electrical engineer thinks of a unit of work, a bodybuilder thinks of physical muscular strength... but none of them, if they are involved with BDSM, are going to confuse what they initially think of as power when they hear or read 'TPE'.  Social engineering results in words, terms and phrases meaning different things to different people and even results in a term completely reversing meaning (the word 'let' used to mean 'to prevent', but now means 'to not prevent').  Whether TPE is semantically correct or not is irrelevant for the society as a whole, so long as they get the same comprehension queues in their brain as they would get from hearing something more... technically correct.

This thread was built on a discussion of how TPE (call it whatever you want) may or may not be appropriate for partner A and partner B, but may be appropriate for partern A and partner D, while partner B may find it acceptable and possibly necessary with partner F, while partner C may not find TPE acceptable in either direction with anyone.

Personally I find the original discussion (or rather how I interpreted it) much more interesting than a personal mission to elminate the term 'Total Power Exchange'.  It's not going to change and if the BDSM community continues to expand, it's more likely that the meaning of the individual words would adjust to match how it is used.



AMaster -> RE: -=TPE - no limits total submission, fact or fiction?=- (11/11/2007 10:12:41 PM)

In the real world there is no such thing as a no limits slave.



downkitty -> RE: -=TPE - no limits total submission, fact or fiction?=- (11/11/2007 10:41:26 PM)

We use the term "no limits."  What we mean by it is this:  Its his way or the highway.  I have two choices, obey or leave.  If I attempt to limit him, I would either have to back down and obey, or the relationship would end.  This sounds pretty harsh, and I guess it is. However, we don't participate in the kind of play where limits are generally imposed.  We don't do S&M at all, not even a spanking. It's just not our kink.  We are Master and slave, but that is our whole kink, if you define it as kink. I'm not sure everyone does.

Respectfully,

Amy




cheeky1 -> RE: -=TPE - no limits total submission, fact or fiction?=- (11/12/2007 12:34:12 AM)

quote:

yes.... but also remember... just because in general that the submissive is smarter.. it does make the submissive smarter in all things

 
I'm going to guess that should have a "not" in it? as in "it does NOT make the submissive smarter in all things".
 
I would agree with that. It's the reason I think it makes a lot of sense for two smart people in a relationship to make decisions together. This way you have the benefit of both brains working for the common good.

quote:

In an M/s relationship the Master has final say.... and one of the hardest things for a slave is gracefully allow a decision to be made by the dominant that she/he things is the wrong decision.   This of course is after all the normal dialogue occurs between Master and slave before the decision is made. 
So, is this the essential boundary between dominants and masters? Masters have the final say in decisions? Slaves, no matter how smart they are, must "obey" who they choose as a master?
 
quote:

But one of the more beautiful things is a grace that slave demonstrates after the results of said decision show themself to be a rather poor.
 
I've heard it's not well received to say "i told you so" to a dominant... *smile*
 



ResidentSadist -> RE: -=TPE - no limits total submission, fact or fiction?=- (11/12/2007 2:33:05 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: AMaster
In the real world there is no such thing as a no limits slave.


I fear that some (not all) who live the M/s lifestyle, like slaves with V-notched ears, brands, tattoos, locked chastity piercing and ownership tags might disagree with your perceptions of whether they exist in the real world. 

The “no limits slave” debates are familiar grounds for me.  Usually the debate goes along the lines of a slave being asked to do something detrimental, illegal or fatal.  The debates ranges from “only an idiot would risk harm to his own property” to “what if Master was just testing you to see if you would do it and it would be called off before harm comes?” 

I usually put an end to all of semantics in the debate with the baby finger scenario in which harm is a result.  To explain my perspective, I ask them to presume that Master asks his slave to put a baby finger on the chopping block and they do lose it by obeying.  My question is, would it be worth a baby finger to prove absolute trust in a lifelong relationship? 
 
Some say yes… some say no.   Some say they would never want to be with someone that would give or take a finger as the price for complete trust in a relationship.  Others say it would be worth it.  Some slaves say it is a small price to pay to gain the absolute trust of Master.  Some slaves have body modifications, piercings etc. as a symbol of property... those are all a form of "harm" to a degree.  So for some it is question of how much harm or pain they will suffer to show themselves as property. 

I currently bear scars on my cheek from a shotgun blast ricochet I acquired while I lived in Detroit and was protecting a slave during a robbery at the local store.  She was already in the store, I was safe outside when the robbery started.  I put up my life and while entering the store I was shot at.  To me it was a simple situation.  As her owner, to fulfill my role I must protect her.  Why would anyone think she would do less for me? 

A slave’s notched ear, a brand, even a finger… scars from a ricochet or taking legal guardianship to prove you will care for a slave… all are symbols of commitment. 

I have seen a few amazing things since I came into the lifestyle in 1971, including real life no limits relationship partners.  So I must beg your understanding that your reality does not coincide with mine.

[edit: fixed type-O}



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