RE: -=TPE - no limits total submission, fact or fiction?=-

RE: -=TPE - no limits total submission, fact or fiction?=- (Full Version)

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IrishMist -> RE: -=TPE - no limits total submission, fact or fiction?=- (11/12/2007 3:27:11 AM)
quote: Its his way or the highway. I have two choices, obey or leave. That's pretty much the way my relationship was; his way or the highway.

littlebitxxx -> RE: -=TPE - no limits total submission, fact or fiction?=- (11/12/2007 5:30:23 AM)
That, Mr ResidentSadist, defines a good fitting and "right" relationship, in my opinion. If I desired to be a slave to someone he had better have earned my trust enough just to be with him. Vanilla relationships, D/s, M/s...all have a measure of trust and caring but to different degrees. Even after over 20 years of nilla marriage, I would never have trusted my ex to the degree that I trust my Jarl. I could never have given the ex total control and authority of my mind and body. Being in love of course meant he held the strings of my heart but that was about it. And therein lies the crux of the difference between nilla and M/s, as far as I'm concerned. With my Jarl, I not only have given him my heart but through the negotiation period, through the consideration period, through the exploring of each other I also know I can give him my body to use with complete confidence that it will not be abused and misused *without good reason.* Your example of asking for a baby finger was spot on. If my Jarl wished that specific body modification, I would have no hesitation. If he wished anything that others would consider harmful, I would have no hesitation...I believe he would have a good reason for it. If nothing else, just to prove that I am His. That is well within his rights. After all, nose rings, brands, tattoos, piercings...all are patently harmful body mods yet all seem to be considered acceptable. I believe that if the relationship is a "right" one, there can be total PE. And yes, it is something of an exchange. I give over my self totally, body heart and mind and receive guidance, caring, protection, loyalty, etc etc in return. My Jarl and I are Free Companions which is slightly different than a "typical" bdsm style M/s relationship but because our relationship is built on mutual trust, respect for each other's honour and integrity, it has developed into a deep love. With my body for use and my heart to hold, I can full well agree to give him my mind to control. If I cannot trust him to control it wisely, why would I be with him in the first place? If the relationship is a good one, where the fit is right, and the trust and respect is there, I fully believe that there can be a 'no-limit' experience.

ResidentSadist -> RE: -=TPE - no limits total submission, fact or fiction?=- (11/12/2007 6:08:26 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: littlebitxxx et. al. Dearest sage, Thank you for posting your concise reply and sharing the core of your heart and motivation. I am in accord with what you say, successful TPE requires complete trust and commitment. Best wishes to you and Jarl.

xoxi -> RE: -=TPE - no limits total submission, fact or fiction?=- (11/12/2007 6:19:08 AM)
-=Fast Reply=- As the slave, it is not my role to limit what my Master does. As the Master, it is his responsibility to limit what he does in order to protect the physical and emotional well being of his property. When I say I have no limits, what I mean by that is I will never say "no" to him, and if I do say "no" I will expect to be punished or otherwise made to obey. However that doesn't mean I will do anything in the world - it simply means I will do what he wants me to do. No Limits slavery and no limits Mastery are two entirely different concepts. The idea of a Master with no limits scares me - it means he has no concern for his slave's well being. A slave with no limits is a redundancy - what is a slave if not someone who is owned completely by another? There are certain things that would totally destroy me emotionally - being shared with other men, or him bringing home other women for example. My Master and I have discussed this though...and I no longer feel the need to make an ultimatum of "if you do this I will leave" - in fact I feel foolish for ever having said that in the first place. My Master loves me. He owns me and he wants to protect his investment. All I really needed to say was "if you do this it will hurt me more than anything" and have enough trust in him that he will do what is best for me. I think so many people get caught up in the semantics game - they hear 'no limits' and think 'anything goes' but really a slave with no limits is just half of the equation. What they really need to ask is what limits the Master has - the slave can't do anything harmful to herself if the Master forbids it.

xoxi -> RE: -=TPE - no limits total submission, fact or fiction?=- (11/12/2007 6:44:23 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CrescentLuna However, I think that TPE is just a newer form of an old ideal, the true(tm) Master and slave (or Mistress and slave), the ones that work perfectly because the slave never questions an order because they're a "real" slave and the one in charge never makes a mistake because a "real" mistress knows everything about their slave to avoid making a mistake. I don't see TPE as me blindly accepting everything or never fighting. Sometimes I fight just for the fun of it - he likes subduing me too [;)] The point of TPE is that his will supercedes my own - by any means necessary. That might be as simple as me saying "yes my Lord" or as difficult as him holding me down by force, but the basic idea is I won't run off to the cops and cry rape because he made me do something...and that's why it takes trust on both ends. Also it's ridiculous to think a slave can't speak up. I speak up all the time. Really though it's the way you say something. For example if my Master wanted to put a giant dildo in me and I thought it would be too big to fit, I wouldn't say "oh hell no that thing is not going in me" because that would NOT help my situation [8D] However if I said something like "Master I'm scared, that looks really big, will you please try to be gentle" I think he would be more likely to listen. While it will ultimately be his decision, voicing my concerns in a respectful manner isn't something he would punish me for.

ResidentSadist -> RE: -=TPE - no limits total submission, fact or fiction?=- (11/12/2007 7:25:59 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: xoxi No Limits slavery and no limits Mastery are two entirely different concepts. The idea of a Master with no limits scares me - it means he has no concern for his slave's well being. A slave with no limits is a redundancy - what is a slave if not someone who is owned completely by another? A Master without limits is bad and they would have no concern for the slave but a slave without limits is good/redundant? That seems a bit sexist when taken at face value, even though you explain the trust issue. A slave has the ability to break a Master’s heart as well you know. To me, the end of mutual limitations means both will do anything to serve the relationship, including that which may have been a self imposed limit in the past. I would think one might find a Master without limits very appealing?

BeingChewsie -> RE: -=TPE - no limits total submission, fact or fiction?=- (11/12/2007 7:32:59 AM)
Quick reply: I don't much care for the term TPE. We don't exchange anything, he exerts his power(authority, control, influence) over me. It is a dictatorship. Generally benevolent as someone else said but a dictatorship none the less.

xoxi -> RE: -=TPE - no limits total submission, fact or fiction?=- (11/12/2007 7:40:07 AM)
I didn't mean a Master who would limit his devotion to the relationship. I meant a Master needs to be aware of what will be damaging to his slave and limit his orders to things that won't harm her physically or emotionally. When I say a Master without limits I was thinking along the lines of one who would order his slave to do things that are harmful or illegal. Just to use an example - the idea of a Master prostituting his slave. For most Masters that would be a limit because it is potentially physically and emotionally harmful to the slave, however some slaves might get off on the idea, so other Masters wouldn't consider it a limit. It's up to the Master to limit the activities involved to ones that won't seriously damage the slave. A Master who has no concept of limitations and who will do anything to anyone that he owns, without considering the individual personalities and even physical abilities of the slave, in my mind is not fit to be a Master. And it's not even a matter of making someone do extreme things - if a Master is with a masochistic slave and he forbids any type of sadomasochistic play at all, ever, he is emotionally harming his slave. I'm sure there are some people who might find a no limits Master appealing...until the Master decides that he's bored with the slave and orders her to kill herself because her service to him is complete and she has no other value besides that [;)]

ResidentSadist -> RE: -=TPE - no limits total submission, fact or fiction?=- (11/12/2007 8:23:01 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: xoxi …I'm sure there are some people who might find a no limits Master appealing...until the Master decides that he's bored with the slave and orders her to kill herself because her service to him is complete and she has no other value besides that I would hope that a slave faced with the end of her service in death if she obeys or the end of her service if she disobeys would choose the least harmful in such a scenario. Although I am sure that your scenario has warmed the hearts of any frustrated Master’s that have had bad relationships. J I just want you to know that I understand what you are saying and addressed the illegal, harmful and fatal issue in an earlier reply as well as the OP. The presumption here is that if you are in a TPE framework, you should be there because you have trust. That being said, it confuses me to hear you reiterate concerns that should be long resolved before a TPE exists.

Sakinah -> RE: -=TPE - no limits total submission, fact or fiction?=- (11/12/2007 8:41:26 AM)
quote: The point is these 'limit's if you will are completely negotiated PRIOR to the TPE not after. people change, ideas wants and needs change...this is one of the biggest parts of life.... a Masters wants may very well change now it is known what i will be put through cause he likes to give pain and i've never taken pain. sounds horrendous yet at the same time some what has been read of and dreamed of ...shrugs and to be honest i dont know what the limits are till they are pushed. a great deal is depending on the man doing the pushing and how much he masters me... i could no doubt take alot just to know i was pleasing him ands he will take from me what he wants limits are what He sets them at well wishes

AquaticSub -> RE: -=TPE - no limits total submission, fact or fiction?=- (11/12/2007 9:45:46 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ResidentSadist To me, the end of mutual limitations means both will do anything to serve the relationship, including that which may have been a self imposed limit in the past. I would think one might find a Master without limits very appealing? When I hear "a person without limits" I think "someone with no moral or ethical limits". And I will keep them as far away from me from possible, regardless if that person is submissive, master, slave, dominant or vanilla. I will always have limits in that respect because there are some things I would rather kill Valyraen or myself than do or allow him to do unhindered to others. Do I think this is likely to come up? No, or I wouldn't be with him. But it doesn't change the fact that there are orders, however very unlikely - even to point where the chance is nil - I am to ever receive them, that I would never obey. shrugs If you think that makes something amiss in my relationship with my owner, I can most certainly live with that.

ResidentSadist -> RE: -=TPE - no limits total submission, fact or fiction?=- (11/12/2007 10:54:54 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: AquaticSub I will always have limits in that respect because there are some things I would rather kill Valyraen or myself than do or allow him to do unhindered to others. Do I think this is likely to come up? No, or I wouldn't be with him. But it doesn't change the fact that there are orders, however very unlikely - even to point where the chance is nil - I am to ever receive them, that I would never obey. shrugs If you think that makes something amiss in my relationship with my owner, I can most certainly live with that. Dear aquatic, Thank you so much for your reply. I love it when someone goes right to the heart of the matter about limits by talking about the extremes where limits really come into play. It would be a great service to this thread if you would answer this question: As unlikely as it would be, and taking into account that it would have to be some very bizarre and abnormal situation, if you were to receive orders that you chose not to follow for reasons of sanity, orders that broke your trust in his judgment, orders that cause you to supercede your will over his, would you end the relationship? I mean, he gives the order and at the point that you refuse, doesn’t that break the trust? Shouldn’t that be a signal that something is very wrong? …if so, this lends to the point of the OP and the reality of limits like “flying”. A slave always has a choice and if there is trust, limits shouldn’t be an issue. If there isn’t trust, there shouldn’t be a TPE.

agirl -> RE: -=TPE - no limits total submission, fact or fiction?=- (11/12/2007 11:03:11 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ResidentSadist quote: ORIGINAL: phedre81 To the OP...so, if I say that under no circumstances will I play with unmentionables, does this mean I'm not cut out for TPE? Dear phedre81,For TPE as I know it, it is important to define the reality of the exchange. You said you “will” not do a certain thing. The reality of your statement is that your “will” supercedes mine. Sounds like D/s not TPE to me. Had your statement been posed in a submissive phrasing as a request, thus allowing me the power to choose, then it would have been TPE. You may be a perfect match for “TPE” with someone less demanding than me. However, when I give/grant the wishes of my slave as I often do, it is at my will, not theirs. So D/s is spelling out that you * won't do* this, that or the other and M/s negates the need or desire to. Basically...I trust you to do right by me. The trust to NOT need to mention limits. To not mention limits, you have to have done the footwork and the footwork is knowing what and who you've signed up to. If I'm negotiating anything......then I'm not in a TPE OR an Authority transfer relationship. agirl

AquaticSub -> RE: -=TPE - no limits total submission, fact or fiction?=- (11/12/2007 11:05:13 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ResidentSadist As unlikely as it would be, and taking into account that it would have to be some very bizarre and abnormal situation, if you were to receive orders that you chose not to follow for reasons of sanity, orders that broke your trust in his judgment, orders that cause you to supercede your will over his, would you end the relationship? I mean, he gives the order and at the point that you refuse, doesn’t that break the trust? Shouldn’t that be a signal that something is very wrong? …if so, this lends to the point of the OP and the reality of limits like “flying”. A slave always has a choice and if there is trust, limits shouldn’t be an issue. If there isn’t trust, there shouldn’t be a TPE. It would depend on exactly what the circumstances were and what strange order he gave. Given the selection of things I would not obey, yes the relationship would most likely be over. However, there are a few situations in which I would not withdraw submission/slavery but instead focus on helping him. Ex: If (for some bizarre situation) he became addicted to crack and was ordering me to steal to fund his addiction, I would feel he would be better served by me not obeying and doing what I can to get him help. If he cleaned up his act, or showed great determination to, I would not feel the need to end the relationship. Perhaps I would later down the line, but not right away.

xoxi -> RE: -=TPE - no limits total submission, fact or fiction?=- (11/12/2007 1:12:40 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ResidentSadist quote: ORIGINAL: xoxi …I'm sure there are some people who might find a no limits Master appealing...until the Master decides that he's bored with the slave and orders her to kill herself because her service to him is complete and she has no other value besides that I would hope that a slave faced with the end of her service in death if she obeys or the end of her service if she disobeys would choose the least harmful in such a scenario. Although I am sure that your scenario has warmed the hearts of any frustrated Master’s that have had bad relationships. J I just want you to know that I understand what you are saying and addressed the illegal, harmful and fatal issue in an earlier reply as well as the OP. The presumption here is that if you are in a TPE framework, you should be there because you have trust. That being said, it confuses me to hear you reiterate concerns that should be long resolved before a TPE exists. They aren't concerns I have about TPE. It was a direct answer to your question of why a Master should have limits. I believe a Master should have limits because he is the one guiding the direction the relationship takes. Once a TPE is established the Master can in theory order anything he wants. I'm saying that just because he can, doesn't mean he should. And I'm not just talking about insane things like killing yourself or having sex with animals or trying to make someone fly...it's more simple things like making sure you provide proper aftercare, or not moving too fast with experimental things, or not doing something just because you want to. I think that's the crux of what I'm trying to say here. A slave shouldn't limit the Master's desires. However sometimes the Master has to limit his own desires if he values the relationship enough to keep it healthy. If the couple tries something new, and the Master is turned on by it but the slave is completely traumatized for days, I would assume in a TPE it would be the Master who says "this is not something we should do again" rather than the slave. That's what I mean by a slave with no limits, who would do it again if the Master ordered, but a Master who has limits and enforces them for both people's benefit. This is just my opinion based on my personal morality that says it is wrong to do serious harm to another person - physically or emotionally. Your morality may be different.

KnightofMists -> RE: -=TPE - no limits total submission, fact or fiction?=- (11/12/2007 1:53:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: cheeky1 quote: In an M/s relationship the Master has final say.... and one of the hardest things for a slave is gracefully allow a decision to be made by the dominant that she/he things is the wrong decision. This of course is after all the normal dialogue occurs between Master and slave before the decision is made. So, is this the essential boundary between dominants and masters? Masters have the final say in decisions? Slaves, no matter how smart they are, must "obey" who they choose as a master? In my world... Masters have the final say. Others have a different definition and therefore may provide a different answer. But really what is critical... be called slave or submissive.. or is more important to under how the authority structure works in a given relationship..... call me Master, Dom, Lord, Asshole, Arrogant Prick... it really doesn't matter... at the end of the day.. in my relationships with Alandra and Kyra... I have the final say in the decisions.

agirl -> RE: -=TPE - no limits total submission, fact or fiction?=- (11/12/2007 3:01:43 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: KnightofMists quote: ORIGINAL: cheeky1 quote: In an M/s relationship the Master has final say.... and one of the hardest things for a slave is gracefully allow a decision to be made by the dominant that she/he things is the wrong decision. This of course is after all the normal dialogue occurs between Master and slave before the decision is made. So, is this the essential boundary between dominants and masters? Masters have the final say in decisions? Slaves, no matter how smart they are, must "obey" who they choose as a master? In my world... Masters have the final say. Others have a different definition and therefore may provide a different answer. But really what is critical... be called slave or submissive.. or is more important to under how the authority structure works in a given relationship..... call me Master, Dom, Lord, Asshole, Arrogant Prick... it really doesn't matter... at the end of the day.. in my relationships with Alandra and Kyra... I have the final say in the decisions. I needed to be intelligent enough to choose to belong to someone that was going to make a good job of it. What's smart got to do with it?. No two people have the same intelligence criteria. I'm clever in some ways and utter shit in others. KOM sums it up rather nicely, at least for me........ M has the final say whatever his stupidity level. It's all SO much simpler when you're actually doing it, honestly. agirl

xoxi -> RE: -=TPE - no limits total submission, fact or fiction?=- (11/12/2007 3:08:15 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: agirl It's all SO much simpler when you're actually doing it, honestly. Amen to that!

Rover -> RE: -=TPE - no limits total submission, fact or fiction?=- (11/12/2007 3:12:14 PM)
Fast Reply to no one in particular.... I'm pressed for time and feeling a bit lazy today, so I'm copying and pasting a reply to the topic I made on another board: As I see it, there are always three kinds of limits in existence, even in TPE relationships: 1. My own limits (everyone has inherent personal limits). 2. Her limits (everyone has inherent personal limits). 3. Legal limits, as far as you're willing to challenge them. Bottom line, everyone has limits. It's just a matter of where they are. Everyone has something they will not do, cannot do, and cannot be made to do. It's not just an aversion, it's a limit. Is it possible to act as if there are no limits? Sure, if you're willing to pay the price. Even if it's within your own limits, there would be a price to be paid for exceeding someone else's limits, or, at some point, for exceeding society's limits (ie: society is not gonna look the other way while you indulge your snuff fetish). You wanna dance all night, in the morning you have to pay the piper (that's the nature of responsibility). I believe they call those who ignore limits "anti-social" in a clinical sense. TPE does not mean the absence of limits, or limitless control. It means the authority for complete control within the limits mentioned above. John

xoxi -> RE: -=TPE - no limits total submission, fact or fiction?=- (11/12/2007 3:23:49 PM)
nods No limits for me doesn't mean I have no personal limits. It means that I place no limits on what my Master wants to do. And the reason he is my Master is because we are compatible - I feel like I've found my soul mate. I know that he might do things that I find painful or physically uncomfortable, but he would never harm or injure me. I also know that I have the right to respectfully tell him how I feel about a certain act, and give my input (for example asking him to use a butt plug before anal sex because I've never done it and I don't want to tear something) but regardless of my opinion, the final decision is his. And I wouldn't have it any other way [:)]

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