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Pain...Pleasure? - 11/12/2007 5:50:00 AM   
BoiJen


Posts: 2608
Joined: 3/7/2007
Status: offline 		So if a masochist translates what the "normal" crowd would call "painful" into "pleasure"...is it then still pain?

If it isn't, then is the person topping them still a sadist? Does it defeat the purpose?


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RE: Pain...Pleasure? - 11/12/2007 6:35:50 AM   
CdnExplorer


Posts: 227
Joined: 2/12/2007
Status: offline 		Well now my head hurts, thanks! 

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RE: Pain...Pleasure? - 11/12/2007 6:45:32 AM   
azropedntied


Posts: 1829
Joined: 7/25/2005
From: Phx AZ
Status: offline 		If a tree falls in the forest and nobody hears it fall has it really fallen ?


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RE: Pain...Pleasure? - 11/12/2007 6:46:29 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		The squashed mushrooms and ants would like to think it did.

ZenMaster

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RE: Pain...Pleasure? - 11/12/2007 6:47:56 AM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline 		Lol jen, why are you making me think so much !

Personally speaking, yes it is still pain, as i wouldnt get the same pleasure from it, if it wasnt being done by a Mistress. The cops using nipple clamps on me instead of handing out a speeding ticket has no appeal.

Err thats unless they are lady cops

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RE: Pain...Pleasure? - 11/12/2007 7:23:08 AM   
thetammyjo


Posts: 6322
Joined: 9/8/2005
Status: offline 		I think the point of masochism is that you get pleasurable sensations from things that others may feel as pain. I think what you get is an endorphin rush.

If I may, there is classic book called "Urban Aboriginals: A Celebration of Leathersexuality" by Geoff Mains that goes into more details about what physically happens.

I think we use the words masochism and sadism with consensual meaning in BDSM but in the general use of the term sadist that person would not want the person they are hurting to enjoy it. This demonstrates some of the problems with using terms in BDSM when they have other meanings.

Some questions could be asked about "slave" or "mistress" or "pervert." We use them in more positive ways than they are traditionally used.

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RE: Pain...Pleasure? - 11/12/2007 8:52:35 AM   
aidan


Posts: 904
Joined: 5/28/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: thetammyjo

I think the point of masochism is that you get pleasurable sensations from things that others may feel as pain. I think what you get is an endorphin rush.

If I may, there is classic book called "Urban Aboriginals: A Celebration of Leathersexuality" by Geoff Mains that goes into more details about what physically happens.

I think we use the words masochism and sadism with consensual meaning in BDSM but in the general use of the term sadist that person would not want the person they are hurting to enjoy it. This demonstrates some of the problems with using terms in BDSM when they have other meanings.

Some questions could be asked about "slave" or "mistress" or "pervert." We use them in more positive ways than they are traditionally used.


Well, it's not like there isn't a long history of words in the English language having numerous codified meanings.

As to the original question: A decided yes. It still hurts. Sometimes a whole fucking lot.

When I was in NYC a few weeks ago a Domme friend of mine tried Her new rubber crop on me. I have never screamed so loud from play in my life. It was painful, exhausting, excruciating. I was on the verge of tears by the end and could barely talk.

I still get hard thinking about it.

Now, I don't know if I qualify as a masochist, in the BDSM sense or the traditional sense, but I know this to be true: I like having pain inflicted upon my person, both emotional and physical. Now it's not a general, come-one-come-all thing. A good amount of sexual attraction and personal compatability has to be in place there.

This is sometimes hard to explain to people. A friend once asked "So, like, if I punch you in the face, you'll blow your wad?" (I keep such nuanced, intelligent company)

No, jackass, I'll jab you in the throat and displace your arm.

I don't know quite what the distinction is, only that it's there. Random violence doesn't do anything for me. Precise violence from a beautiful, Dominant Woman...That just makes me melt.

But it's not direct pleasure. It still hurts like fuck, but for some reason, because somebody I really like is hurting me and getting off on it, so am I. I haven't cum from a spanking yet, but it's not for lack of trying.

So yes, it still hurts. But...It is sooooo yummy.


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RE: Pain...Pleasure? - 11/12/2007 9:23:49 AM   
MisPandora


Posts: 2911
Joined: 4/7/2004
From: Philadelphia, PA
Status: offline 		I hate to say this, but in consensual SM, we've perverted the dictionary definitions of the words Sadist and Masochist.  It would have to be fleshed out in a more scientific study (community survey using proper statistical technique) but I'd theorize that a majority of people who identify with sadism (enjoying the act of delivering pain), myself included, actually DO care about the feelings and reception of the pain from the bottom.  That we seek out masochists is evidence alone that we desire someone to want what we dish out, not hate or abhor it.  I have no desire to beat or torture someone who isn't interested in what I have to hand out.  If that means I have to surrender my SM community use of the title sadist, so be it.

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Ms World Leather 2004
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"Simply put, if you want a real femdom to love you, give her reasons to love you." Gloria Brame

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RE: Pain...Pleasure? - 11/12/2007 12:17:19 PM   
Drifa


Posts: 547
Joined: 7/27/2007
From: Rural Texas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BoiJen
So if a masochist translates what the "normal" crowd would call "painful" into "pleasure"...is it then still pain?
If it isn't, then is the person topping them still a sadist? Does it defeat the purpose?


That mischievious grin in the picture! Somehow it just goes so well with your posts.

I am definitely a masochist as well as submissive, and it's not that the pain doesn't hurt. At some levels of play, sensation is just... neutral, or even relaxing. But OMG, a caning is never that way, it's intense and when done with great precision and oh-so-slow so you get both waves of pain!

But it's like when thunderheads come boiling up in the late summer, you can feel the electricity in the air and the ozone when the lightning flashes. Eventually the pain resolves into release, which can be sexual but is not always, and the healing rush of endorphins and the approval and love from my Lady in the aftermath is better than dancing in the rain.

My Lady enjoys administering sensation at various levels. She is deriving direct pleasure from the giving of the pain. But it's necessary for her to also know that it's consentual and she gets a good deal of pleasure out of making me experience such intense reactions, and pleasure, as well.

(in reply to BoiJen)
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RE: Pain...Pleasure? - 11/12/2007 12:24:15 PM   
BitaTruble


Posts: 9779
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BoiJen

So if a masochist translates what the "normal" crowd would call "painful" into "pleasure"...is it then still pain?

If it isn't, then is the person topping them still a sadist? Does it defeat the purpose?





I tend to get and give off better energy when the bottom enjoys what I'm inflicting, but it's not a requirement for me to enjoy it myself.  I don't need mutual enjoyment, I just need consent. ::grins:: So, yeah, I'm a sadist regardless of how the bottom process the activities.

Celeste

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Rock, paper, scissors."

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RE: Pain...Pleasure? - 11/12/2007 1:11:32 PM   
darchChylde


Posts: 5279
Joined: 9/28/2006
From: Warm Springs, GA but i live in San Francisco.
Status: offline 		pain for me is pain; no ifs , ands or buts... i think it's the rare masochist who feels pleasure instead of pain, it's more often pleasure through the pain; and if it hurts at all, then it's still pain

but as i was saying; in sensation play, where it can hurt depending on what is done to where, i can get turned on by the sensation or pain itself; but in corporeal play, involving the more physically extreme or intense activities such as using striking implements and the like, it is pure pain; the pleasure i recieve from it is not at all erotic, but comes from the pleasure my partner derives from it and my pride and ego at being able to take it

once upon a time, when i was playing regularly and intensely with mostly corporeal; i got the most pleasure at being able to outlast any Top... i doubt that i could outlast a sick kitten now, as my tolerance has had plenty of time to go down


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if only to keep me to herself.

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RE: Pain...Pleasure? - 11/12/2007 1:41:01 PM   
beeble


Posts: 799
Joined: 5/25/2005
From: UK
Status: offline
quote:

aidan wrote: A friend once asked "So, like, if I punch you in the face, you'll blow your wad?" (I keep such nuanced, intelligent company)

Thank you.  That's the funniest thing I've read all week.  (Yeah, I know it's only Monday.  Shuddup.)

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RE: Pain...Pleasure? - 11/12/2007 2:50:47 PM   
pixelslave


Posts: 1444
Joined: 8/19/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BoiJen

So if a masochist translates what the "normal" crowd would call "painful" into "pleasure"...is it then still pain?

If it isn't, then is the person topping them still a sadist? Does it defeat the purpose?



If both enjoy it, does it matter what you label them?
 
I had a bad experience with a former Mistress who didn't take things slowly at the start of our relationship to help me progress to more intense play and immediately took me there before I was prepared for it.  So when I met Majik, I told her up front I wasn't certain what my tolerance for pain would be.  It seems Majik has slowly turned into something of a pain slut by progressively introducing me to more intense play such that I'll happily beg for more of it and I look forward to our moving into play with increasingly more intense impliments.   
 
Yes it still hurts, sometimes so much that I'm nearly on the verge of using my safeword (she's a very good judge of when I'm at that point).  One of the things that makes it worthwhile and often very satisfying for me is watching the smile on her face as she administers the pain she's delivering despite my discomfort and seeing her have so much fun taking me to the edge of what I can endure for her pleasure.   With some kinds of play (esp clothespins on my foreskin), I'll beg her to stop without using my safeword as it's truly all I can take, but the smile on her face is so lovely I just can't bear the thought of using it and ending the enjoyment she's having. 
 
There are some kinds of light to moderate pain or stimulation which I find very arousing.  I can also get on something of an endorphin high with other kinds of pain play as I easily go into subspace at what seems like the drop of a dime with many different kinds of play.  Even then, there's still the pain I feel which is typically still exciting and arousing for me; at least up to a certain point of intensity when I may lose that focus.  Usually, when in subspace it simply means my tolerance for the pain increases such that I can go further than I otherwise would be able to without the extra endorphins.  In a large part I have to credit that to Mistress' skill in being able to take me to that special place as well as knowing how to control the pace when delivering the pain as we move along.  She also almost always leaves me wanting more such that I'll beg her to continue when she stops after deciding I've had enough.  Now tell me, how sadistic is that?  LOL! 
 
 - pixel
 
   Collared to Majik


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RE: Pain...Pleasure? - 11/13/2007 11:21:42 AM   
BoiJen


Posts: 2608
Joined: 3/7/2007
Status: offline 		Labels are important...they let us know a little bit of who we're talking to...and it's important to keep in mind that that particular label should not limit the individual it's being used in reference to but to expand our understanding who that person is.

That being said....my own personal masochistic tendancies are a little off. I get off emotionally and spiritually through pain. And because of that I get off physically. The scenes I love best are the ones I regret asking for while they're occuring. The ones I really don't want to be in in the moment. Before I, if it were in me to do, I'd beg for them...and afterwards I fly and so incredibly sexually charged because of where I was in THAT moment. Because of my emotional and spiritual high. Someone once told me I'm the cathartic masochist.

I think that's VERY different from someone wired another way...to process pain as pleasure. As a sadist...I'd likely lose interest quickly. As a sadist I want to hurt someone who will volunteer to be there...and then go "oh shit!"

And that's my take on it. Thanks for the input everybody!

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RE: Pain...Pleasure? - 11/13/2007 1:53:38 PM   
RumpusParable


Posts: 1923
Joined: 7/7/2005
From: NYC now!
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BoiJen

So if a masochist translates what the "normal" crowd would call "painful" into "pleasure"...is it then still pain?

If it isn't, then is the person topping them still a sadist? Does it defeat the purpose?





I don't know about other masochists, but pain is still pain to Me.  It still hurts.  Things still sting or scrape or... 

The old note about stubbing the toe applies here, I think.  I still hate that, it's still horrid.  Being a masochist doesn't change that I experience the clear and unpleasant sensation of pain.

When willingly accepting a beating for masochistic fun it all still hurts like a bitch.  That I use the mental and physical reactions that the pain and damage stimuli create for enjoyment purposes and like the pain itself doesn't make it not pain, and sometimes suffering.

It's not that pain is pleasure, it's that I get pleasure from experiencing and pushing through pain.

So yes, if my top was someone enjoying the negative portion of the sensation stimulus I was experiencing at their hand and my response to it, they would still be a sadist... the fact that I'm someone who desires to put myself through it and enjoys doing so does not negate that the pain and it's infliction is still there.

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RE: Pain...Pleasure? - 11/13/2007 2:12:03 PM   
Baroque


Posts: 38
Status: offline 		Hello
I have known masochists who describe experiencing both types of sensation and enjoy the end result as well.
For instance: pain that transmutes into pleasure, the senses mix, nerves interpret sensation as pleasure under the right circumstances.
The same person experiences applied sensual pain, another day another act - that is interpreted as pure pain, but submits and experiences the endorphin rush and is happy to have complied and pleased the sadist top.

A good question.

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RE: Pain...Pleasure? - 11/14/2007 10:05:32 AM   
deadbeat


Posts: 2
Joined: 11/12/2007
Status: offline

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RE: Pain...Pleasure? - 11/15/2007 3:12:44 PM   
lateralist1


Posts: 886
Joined: 11/22/2006
Status: offline 		Thanks for posting this. It's interesting to hear the different reactions from subs and bottoms.
Bottoms see it as a challenge for themselves subs see it as a challenge for their Dommes.
Now I really know why I want a sub not that I didn't know already lol.
If I ever own a sub then I will want him to enjoy it because he is pleasing me.
As a sadist it doesn't matter I get turned on by inflicting pain but as a woman it does.
As a dominant woman I want him to suffer for me not his own enjoyment.

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RE: Pain...Pleasure? - 11/15/2007 3:48:32 PM   
ultsub


Posts: 50
Joined: 10/28/2004
Status: offline 		Kinda like last night's plot from "Life" on NBC -- He was not looking for the person not obeying the law. He was not not looking for the person not obeying the law.

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RE: Pain...Pleasure? - 11/15/2007 3:55:42 PM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline 		i often wonder why my pulse quickens at the thought of getting myself in a situation where i will be hurt way more than i want to be, and wishing i wasnt in that place. For me i dont think its the need to prove anything to myself but more something Pixel mentioned. To endure pain purely because a Mistress is getting pleasure from inflicting  it. Maybe thats due to a deep seated need to please, alternatively its letting yourself reach the point where you are handing total trust in someone else, as even with safe words you are hoping that the Dominant doesnt take things to far so you need to use it. To be honest having to shout red during every other session would indicate that either i wasnt ready to accept pain or the Dominant wasnt skilled at reading my signals. i think that if you have too many seesions where the safe word is used, then it takes the edge off of being able to relax next time you session.

Maybe its a mixture of all of the above, but i would be fascinated to know the reasons either way.

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