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RE: Black Income Levels About Half That of Whites. - 11/14/2007 6:57:38 AM   
seekchastebutler


Posts: 2
Joined: 10/8/2007
Status: offline 		Personally, I think the black/white "study"... like so many others...was published by a Jesse Jackson or similar type...someone seeking attention, business and/or to stir up racial tensions... 

It obviously does not take into account the many multimillionaire and billionaire music artists, business moguls, "professional" children's game players, etc. who have dark skin...


It grossly reeks of propaganda to say "poor me my skin is dark, give me some money, attention and special favors"....  Something quality people with darker skin would never stoop to.   

Its criminal that some are even witchhunting "whites" just for saying the word "nigger"...destroying whole careers by doing so.  Dog Chapman likely wouldn't even balk at being called white trash...but he is not allowed to use a historically equal term in a private phone call or in conversations at home?  Yet black children and adults say the "n-word" to each other all the time. 

Frankly, I think anyone who persecutes "white" skinned people for using the term nigger...is being a Nigger.  Capital N.  As Dog Chapman clearly explained the term describes quality of lifestyle choices and other adult chosen behaviors, and is not a term of mere skin tone reference.  It is no better or worse, but simply equal to the term "white trash"...   And I don't see anyone having a problem with that term.

The fact is, blacks ARE a minority though...not prince and princesses to be given special treatment for their skin color.  How absurd to think otherwise.  And another fact is that if all blacks and all whites are one...their own people are the ones who originally sold them into slavery long ago.   So why aren't they persecuting and going after the decendants of those who started the whole problem?

Being a minority does not mean anything good or bad...it just means that there are less people with your color of skin.  Big deal.  As a redhead, I have no problem acknowledging that I am even MORE of a minority....because alot less people have my pure ivory skin and blazing red hair color than have pure coffee dark skin.

I was all for the many consessions given to decendants of slaves over the decades, because I don't believe in forced slavery of any kind...but enough is enough...

But there is no one alive today who owned black people as slaves and you cannot blame innocent people for something that people did more than a hundred years ago...its just insane, manipulative and...illegal DISCRIMINATION to do so.   

If they keep it up, they wil have no one to blame but themselves if the tide turns back. 

I greatly admire people like Oprah Winfrey and Shirley Johnson (BET), Tiger Woods, etc.  I don't even have a problem with the vast majority of black "pro" ball players making millions...even though I smirk that people are so silly (and so desperate to be entertained) as to call grown adults playing children's games "professional".   But I smirk regardless whether they have dark, light or flourescent skin tones.  Plus, I believe the money raised by such "professional sports" is largely given by white fans, if statistics and logical conclusions are true...  where is the discrimination and hatred for blacks in that?

As a color blind white person raised with only positive curiosity for other races and traditions, (raised to be so by equally white and innocent parents and grandparents, etc), I'm frankly tired of people who constantly pull the race card.    No one decent cares anymore about color... 

Only the quality of a person and their own life choices count.      That is the American way...

We can never change all people...  So likely there will always be genuine white trash, niggers, spics, etc. who constantly bad mouth each other and try to make themselves feel bigger by doing so.  But those who fit these labels do so by adult free will choice of behavior and lifestyle...not by the color of their skin.  

Its simply an historical fact that terms meaning basically the same thing were created for each "group".   Again, big deal!

I suppose someone ignorant or jealous might even call me white trash...  I actually had a fairly wealthy but apparently still extremely insecure and racist "black" guy do so when I refused to date him (no differently than I had countless white guys before him).  But as a quality person, I simply ignore or laugh at such people.  As do quality people who have darker skin than I, when someone calls them "nigger".   I certainly wouldn't make a federal case of it, start a witchhunt or sign up for food stamps or any special program because someone "made" me feel inferior. 

Because no one can make me feel inferior.  

Even if my parents had done so....by breeding  irresponsibly or not raising me well or healthily...then I would only hold them responsible...and build my own life from there.

No one needs to have children if they cannot afford them...and they shouldn't. 

Nearly 40 years of quota and special programs for slave decendants are enough...  Its time we help and protect each other simply as a result of true injustices...not color issues...ever. 

Because frankly....EVERY race under the sun has been enslaved, persecuted and taken advantage of....at one time or another thorughout history.

Not just "blacks", jews, hispanics, or asians...but EVERY race...including "whites"... have been slaves and downtrodden for generations at a time.  Often by people of their own skin color...just as africans were first sold into slavery by other africans.

Oprah Winfrey, Tiger Woods and even Tiger Woods father never played the race card...and look where it got them...  And if they want to help only black people with the money they accumulated, fine...or mostly black people...it is their money. 

But lets stop pandering to those still crying wolf about inequality...  It's getting so tiresome...

Life is no more difficult for black people today than it is for white people...  At every level.

To further elaborate...I personally don't think LeBron James actually "earned" $90 million just because he played a children's game better than every other teenager...   But at the same time, I don't mind if endorsers and people who are weakminded need someone to "endorse" sneakers and other products for them to want to buy them... want to give him all that money either.   And I don't mind if LeBron enjoys it...or who he chooses to help with it...or whether he chooses to help anyone.  More power to him.  Its his money now.

I don't see anyone launching a witchhunt that Lebron or Oprah played the race card to get where they are....  And for God's sake, he only dribbles a ball and runs around in shorts and sneakers....  Its not like he's saved the world.   Now Oprah, God love her...is genuinely helping to save the world...  I think she earns and truly deserves every penny.

But lets stop the absurd and criminal reverse discrimination finally, shall we?

After all...and again...every white person who owned slaves is now likely dead.    Any who aren't...prosecute them if you can.  I only know that my family never owned slaves.  

Every black african tribal leader who originated the slave trade and sold their fellow black men, women and children into slavery is now likely dead also.

So there's nothing more to be done about it...

Other people and peoples have endured just as much tragedy in their lives...and deserve help equally...even if they have pearly white skin.

Our country has made specific measures for 4 decades to give opportunity to the decendants of black skinned slaves....  Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't recall such concessions being given to white skinned slaves or their decendants...

I don't even see white people raising a stink over the current racist award shows and television monopolies and blatantly exclude whites based solely on skin color...  And being the "majority" we could raise quite a stink if we truly wanted to.

I'm sure there are far more white people who are poor and underpriveleged today than there are black people...simply because there are far more white people on the earth. 

Where on earth does it say you deserve special favors based on the color of your skin? 

The whole point of the civil rights movement was to do away with such ignorance....to not give special treatment, regardless of color....(except for a period of time in government quotas, etc.) ...it was not meant to be a movement to turn the tables and give favoritism for darker skin.

Its absurd that people get away with lumping all "white" people together as if we all know each other and are all just one race too...

Skin color is based purely on generational proximity to the equator...nothing else.   The earth just so happens to have far more land away from the equator than near it....so there are more people with light skin.  Duh!

Can we let the skin color issue rest now finally...???






(in reply to meatcleaver)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: Black Income Levels About Half That of Whites. - 11/14/2007 7:11:02 AM   
RealityLicks


Posts: 1615
Joined: 10/23/2007
Status: offline 		No. Because as you demonstrate, rank ignorance is both persistent and toxic.




edited for grammar, I'd hate an error of mine to reflect on anyone else.

< Message edited by RealityLicks -- 11/14/2007 7:53:37 AM >

(in reply to seekchastebutler)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: Black Income Levels About Half That of Whites. - 11/14/2007 7:13:42 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		Um, there is the difference in your being UK and my being  US, old cheese.

I in fact agree with the findings, am not your everyday sort of racist at all.

You took the word war way out of context, and so we shall replace that with the word struggle.

I am saying that in the American situation (which is the only one I can comment on with any knowledge)  black on black crime is not at all a flawed concept...
Black folk are about 13% of our American muttishness.

So, disregarding the numbers and treating the populations of  black  and white as equal entities, as a percentage of crimes, black on black is demonstrably out of proportion.  

Back to the urban/inner city thingie...........

As a population percentage, blacks overwhelmingly live in the inner cities. Not inner city Oglala, North Dakota....rather New York, Chicago and so on.

So, urban jobs are high wages?  Not many of these folks are stockbrokers or other sorts of inner city exectutives, but rather inner city lunchladies, unemployed, macdonalds workers (and managers to be fair)  and so on.

Um, there ain't no politicians over here saying this sort of shit, and I am afraid more black folk in America would tend to agree with me.  I didn't say the study was about finding helping hands, but rather than railing that shit is fucked up, why don't you forward the proposal that it just ain't fair and I owe it to you?  See what I mean, old chap?  That's been tried; and failed. It is in our fucking constitution, and that don't solve it.  The work will come from the oppressed, it just fuckin' is.

20 + 65 / 2 equals 42.5 and I am saying that is probably the correct number, whites too low, blacks to high........jesus, why dont you just string me up?    

I am sorry that you misunderstood every fucking word I said, and framed it in an uneducated and racist light, so next time a civil war comes up over slavery, you can fight it yourself next time........(you don't be an asshole and I won't neither, deal?).

Let us chalk this up to the different climates and struggles we have what with us being accross the pond from each other. We have areas of agreement and we have areas of disagreement, but we both are of the opinion that it ain't fair or equitable. But it IS!!!! (as in exists, I talk perfectly misunderstandable yank.)

Cordially,
Ron

   

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to RealityLicks)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: Black Income Levels About Half That of Whites. - 11/14/2007 8:09:11 AM   
pahunkboy


Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		The only jobs I see in -- depressed areas- mcdonalds and funeral homes.  what type of motivation can that be?    very little.

I dont think it is time to end quotas. To an extent they are still needed. Certainly I heard the "its not fair" crowd. But is it fair to basically seal folks into this dismal fate?  Inner cities are no place to live.

IMO folks of color face additional obstacles in life....

Rather then destroy a culture, it would be so much better to bring out the coolness of it. To presume blacks bring nothing to the table is foolish!

Would I fight for my hanburg, yup- but that has no bearing on color of those who would want the same burger.

Years- ago- I believed we can all get along. Today- I am not so sure. And yes- the elite love when we destroy eachother!

(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: Black Income Levels About Half That of Whites. - 11/14/2007 12:03:58 PM   
RealityLicks


Posts: 1615
Joined: 10/23/2007
Status: offline 		mnottertail, your post is received in the cordiality with which it was sent, OK? And, yes, the next time I want to "fight a civil war over slavery", I'll do so myself. An elegant point, well made.

Until today, I had often found your brand of humour quite amusing because you don't take yourself too seriously. However, you have to understand that as lightly as we might take ourselves as individuals it isn't always the case that certain issues can be treated in the same way.

Reading your posts, its quite strange that you should point to "ebonics" as a reason behind black disadvantage. I wonder if you can see why?

There are many differences between the UK and the US but sadly, there are also many similarities. Having visited your country and by sharing experiences with others who do/have lived there, I have opinions. There have been a number of artists and writers both black and white who have taken this issue on. World famous figures. Given a choice between the thoughts of Toni Morrison, Maya Angelou, ML King Jr, Malcolm X, Richard Wright, Ralph Ellison, James Baldwin, Studs Terkel, Noam Chomsky, John Edgar Wideman, Angela Davis, Amir Baraka etc etc etc I'm compelled to choose them over you.

This study is an attempt to draw your society's attention to an imbalance in opportunity, not to apportion blame. If you ignore the problem, those chickens will come home to roost. If you feel it serves you better to ignore the wronged and let them deal with it themselves, let's hope you still hold that view when a bit of radical wealth distribution takes place with you.

(in reply to pahunkboy)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: Black Income Levels About Half That of Whites. - 11/14/2007 12:26:55 PM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		I choose to read Malcom X, especially after his view altering pilgrimage to Mecca. I have read Lerone Bennett Jr, Walter Mosley, Frank Yerby.......

Ebonics? Simple.  The people in positions of power in this country (and yours) speak our (that is white) form of ebonics in part necessary to achieve advanced standing, you are not going to be saying, 'we fosed tah be shushed'.  Louis Farakan dont speak that way, nor does Colin Powell, nor does or did:  Anita Hill, Ossie & Rub Davis, Harry Belafonte, Carl Stokes, Fredrick Douglass, Adam Clayton Powell, and so on. 

Sorry, the way the world works.  No exceptions.  If the affectations of slave language is so important to your heritage, show me where they speak the shit or where they spoke that shit in ancient history.  I will reconsider.    

Exactly what do you want me to do to fix the problem?  How the fuck you gonna clean up the crips and the bloods and all the other fuckheads out there that wanna gang bang?  How you want me to convince a kid that lives in the ghetto that he needs to drop that stupid bullshit 'bout he got ga'e ----an' he fixin' to be blingin like Dr. J, am he don't nee' to 'member schoolin'?

This rich white cracker ain't gonna get that past him, if his own folk can't. 

That is the bottom line of where I am coming from.  This is not the first study to try to attempt to draw my societys attention to this problem, nor is it the first attempt to draw black folks attention to this problem, and in neither case will it be the last....drive by shootings (most always black on black) one of the many chickens coming home to roost for us all.  Another one is just the unbelievable waste or at least unrequited fulfillment of so many lives for no reason.

So, I hear you. I hope you hear me.

Ron  



_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to RealityLicks)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: Black Income Levels About Half That of Whites. - 11/14/2007 1:06:08 PM   
RealityLicks


Posts: 1615
Joined: 10/23/2007
Status: offline 		I almost despair at you. Did you inherit that money?

I am not arguing in favour of ebonics. I am making it plain that not everybody speaks that way in black communities. Did any of the black writers referenced above speak that way? NO - so what do you deduce from my naming them?

No, you can't clean up the Bloods and Crips. But could you kindly spot the next Columbine killers? You see, because they're white no one will challenge their buying firearms or their clearly anti-social behaviour patterns. And when they have murdered several more white kids, no-one will call it part of the white on white crime wave. They will just be considered exceptional. No white youth will consequently be turned down a job interview or college place because he is white and therefore likely to murder everyone out of the blue.

Proportionately, more homicides in your country are by whites of their spouses - but it doesn't help to demonise the ruling class, so your - frankly execrable - media overlooks it. By making sensationalist coverage of so-called black crime, they train you to expect it.

I don't want you to fix the problem. Don't insult me by suggesting I do. I want you to act your age and stop casually dismissing the naked racism that you wallow in and indirectly profit from, stop making bad jokes about Kwanzaa or insulting references to black peoples' supposed likes and dislikes - they normalise the incredible capacity shown over there for denial.

Kids are not stupid but they are kids. Shown that they are of no worth by the media and wider society from birth, they buy the lie that life is cheap. Until you have made the journey you routinely expect those kids to make, you are in no position to judge those who fail. You may think you are wonderful for recognising a lack of equality. So don't exacerbate it by making foolish comments about it. That's all. You don't have to do any more. No individual on this earth has to convince you that they deserve a fair chance; it is theirs by right. Your apparent preconceptions deny them that right.

Perhaps you'd like to re-visit my posts with a fresh eye at a later date. This kind of online argument rarely resolves positively and I admit I am angry at your unwittingly offensive attitude.

(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: Black Income Levels About Half That of Whites. - 11/14/2007 1:15:30 PM   
XNakisisaX


Posts: 24
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		Really? When did that happen? I thought there was equality here after '68. What the hell am I going to do now?

(in reply to RealityLicks)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: Black Income Levels About Half That of Whites. - 11/14/2007 1:28:44 PM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		I have made no  bad jokes about Kwanzaa, I have made no foolish comments about equality, and if I am unwittingly offensive, that is just too fuckin' bad.  You may have a chip on your shoulder for whatever reason, you are unwittingly sensitive and petulant then.  How many people have been killed in school shootings?  Over that time, how many people have been killed in drive bys?  How do you compare those two things?  The only way I know is where is the fucking parents here?  That is common to the two, but the numbers are not such that you compare.  The number of all people killed in WW2 compared to the number of traffic accidents world wide for a month.  Not even in the same galaxy.

By the same token that nobody has to convince you that you have a fair chance coming, nobody has to convince you that you dont.

I don't think I am wonderful,  I don't think I am anything.  I am simply stating what is, and that is about on par with your being the poor misunderstood black to my simon legree out here.  same as the fucking study, it dont and wont change nothing, people gotta change, and if we argue it out we will get it.  I ain't worried about chickens coming home to roost, the oppressed are in the minority by definition and the numbers wont stand up to a revolution.......I am safe as in gods pocket, so I come to the  same conclusion, you all gotta work out what you're gonna do about it.

Ron

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to RealityLicks)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Black Income Levels About Half That of Whites. - 11/14/2007 1:50:42 PM   
RealityLicks


Posts: 1615
Joined: 10/23/2007
Status: offline 		Nakisisa - when did what happen?

mnottertail - how many white people will shoot other whites in your country today? Why don't we hear about white on white crime? Just read some of your earlier posts on this thread, then read the one about ebonics. Your command of your language is frequently appalling, no better than the ebonics you decry.

For future reference, I am well-educated, well-paid and if I may say so, extremely good-looking. I live in relative comfort in the greatest city in the world and believe me, have very little to complain about. I am neither poor nor generally misunderstood, so I don't need to swear to express myself.

But my concerns stretch beyond myself, or even just those who look like me. I'm no saint, in fact, I'm beginning to hope you get jacked and shot (OK, non-fatally) by a white criminal in the very near future. Fucken A.

I thought you had more about you. I was wrong.

(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: Black Income Levels About Half That of Whites. - 11/14/2007 2:08:10 PM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		Well, you just don't realize how that makes me feel.

As for the rest, it is wasted, and there is no sort of discourse available, then.

Insofar as 'swearing to express yourself'.  There are a cachophony of voices here in every shade of human, that will tell you that should I choose to do so, I can express myself with such mordancy that it would take a slew of dictionaries, several ancillary english classes (even for you laddie buck), and several months to apprehend it.

However; this is a fuckin' sex site, and I am speaking the lingua franca here.

Fuckin' Sie A.

Ron

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to RealityLicks)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Black Income Levels About Half That of Whites. - 11/14/2007 2:12:47 PM   
RealityLicks


Posts: 1615
Joined: 10/23/2007
Status: offline 		OK. You win. Fatally.

(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Black Income Levels About Half That of Whites. - 11/14/2007 2:14:55 PM   
SeeksOnlyOne


Posts: 2012
Joined: 5/14/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

it tends to indicate that as a percentage of population along these racial lines , there are more black lunch ladies than white lunch ladies, and more white managers than black managers per capita with racial divisions.


MrWizard 



ahhhhhhhh......

_____________________________

it aint no good til it hurts just a little bit....jimmy somerville

in those moments of solitude, does everyone sometimes think they are insane? or is it just me?

(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: Black Income Levels About Half That of Whites. - 11/14/2007 2:17:38 PM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline 		It's pretty obvious that we need to start getting manufacturing jobs back into this country.
If a company wants to outsource it's jobs to other countries fine, just deny them access to our markets.
That won't last too long, they'll go bankrupt!

_____________________________

"But Your Honor, this is not a Jury of my Peers, these people are all decent, honest, law-abiding citizens!"

(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Black Income Levels About Half That of Whites. - 11/14/2007 2:23:29 PM   
servantforuse


Posts: 6363
Joined: 3/8/2006
Status: offline 		The high school drop-out rate for African American males in the city of Milwaukee is just under 60 %. Lets start by staying in school. Getting a high school diploma isn't that difficult but you have to get up in the morning and get your butt to school...

(in reply to popeye1250)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: Black Income Levels About Half That of Whites. - 11/14/2007 2:30:53 PM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline 		Sixty percent? Damn!
That explains a lot of the income disparity.
In Boston kids with English Degrees work in McDonalds.

_____________________________

"But Your Honor, this is not a Jury of my Peers, these people are all decent, honest, law-abiding citizens!"

(in reply to servantforuse)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Black Income Levels About Half That of Whites. - 11/14/2007 2:38:01 PM   
RealityLicks


Posts: 1615
Joined: 10/23/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse

The high school drop-out rate for African American males in the city of Milwaukee is just under 60 %. Lets start by staying in school. Getting a high school diploma isn't that difficult but you have to get up in the morning and get your butt to school...


Hi folks, thread cop here!

I have doubts about those figures. A recent report shows that Milwaukee have shown kids who change schools are counted as drop-outs.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21551541/

It also states that 55% is not an unusual drop-out figure in their schools which have been strongly criticised by parents for not delivering.

Yet I'm sure you are quite earnest in your belief that this displays some in-built aversion to education among black males. As if the wide vista of opportunity that will inevitably follow hasn't tempted them.

These stories write themselves now.

(in reply to servantforuse)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: Black Income Levels About Half That of Whites. - 11/14/2007 2:39:48 PM   
Archer


Posts: 3207
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline 		What you may have failed to focus in on is that black on black crime is reported so much for two reasons.
#1 it is PROPORTIONATLY out of the statistical norm for all people in the US.
#2 is that it is s symptom of a real problem the black community eating their own.

The loss of faith that education is the route out of poverty is a huge problem.
The movement of black society from the lowest of poverty to law and doctor's offices was higher but is falling off.

I would contend that the central problem is that loss of faith.


(in reply to popeye1250)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Black Income Levels About Half That of Whites. - 11/14/2007 2:44:49 PM   
servantforuse


Posts: 6363
Joined: 3/8/2006
Status: offline 		55 % 0r 60 % maybe even 40 % is accurate. All I'm saying is it is hard to find good paying jobs. With no high school dipoloma it will be even more difficult. Don't blame companys for not hiring those that won't go to school.

(in reply to Archer)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Black Income Levels About Half That of Whites. - 11/14/2007 2:47:01 PM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RealityLicks

quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse

The high school drop-out rate for African American males in the city of Milwaukee is just under 60 %. Lets start by staying in school. Getting a high school diploma isn't that difficult but you have to get up in the morning and get your butt to school...


Hi folks, thread cop here!

I have doubts about those figures. A recent report shows that Milwaukee have shown kids who change schools are counted as drop-outs.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21551541/

It also states that 55% is not an unusual drop-out figure in their schools which have been strongly criticised by parents for not delivering.

Yet I'm sure you are quite earnest in your belief that this displays some in-built aversion to education among black males. As if the wide vista of opportunity that will inevitably follow hasn't tempted them.

These stories write themselves now.


What exactly are you trying to say?
That the drop outs whatever their percentage aren't irresponsable?
Or that it's somehow "not their fault?"
Even if it's "only" a 50% dropout rate in Milwaukee that's a disaster!
When I was growing up in the 1960's there was nowhere near this disparity in incomes because there were plenty of good-paying manufacturing jobs to be had.
You could buy a house and support a family on those jobs.
Somehow, I don't think that that's a "bad" thing!

< Message edited by popeye1250 -- 11/14/2007 2:50:30 PM >

_____________________________

"But Your Honor, this is not a Jury of my Peers, these people are all decent, honest, law-abiding citizens!"

(in reply to RealityLicks)
Profile   Post #: 40
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