RE: BDSM Crisis in Denver (Full Version)

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MichaelR -> RE: BDSM Crisis in Denver (11/18/2007 7:16:14 PM)

I hope y'all will forgive the multiplicity of posts that are going to follow.  So many have responded to this thread with several different aspects being noted that I wanted to comment on some of them. 

First, I'd like to thank Dream.  She's had our back from day one.  She not only talked the talk, she walks it too.  When deb started chemo she redoubled her efforts and picked up a lot of slack that I could not have.  That's not to take away from others (some who've posted here as well) who've basically been carrying us the past three or four months with the sweat of their labors. This is always touchy, of course, as Wulf, Dragonlady, ceta, teesa and so many more stepped up when things got worse this past year and I don't want any of them to feel they're not appreciated as much as Dream is.

Moving on:


quote:

ORIGINAL: MsSaskia

quote:

ORIGINAL: MystressDream
The Enclave IS a private membership club.  But, BDSM doesn't have a place in the traditional zoning codes, so they have determined it falls under an "adult entertainment" license.  If they are able to stay open and operating after this new batch of legal fees, they intend to fight for an actual "BDSM" zoning classification.  But, for now, if they don't get some monetary help, the fight will be over.


Do you know if anyone around the country has been able to get legal recognition (zoning or other changes) that specifies BDSM?  If there's a precedent, it'd help the Enclave's case, I'd think.  Would the NCSF know?


Michael:   I believe the Edge in CA has leveraged a classification change.  They're approach, from what I've seen, was that of our own and they appear to have been successful in their jurisdiction.   In our case, we're currently dealing with what "nominally" is a zoning/licensing issue, thus a lot of ground can't be trod yet.  Changing categories comes later.  This having started and being litigated as a zoning/licensing denial prevents us from addressing issues such as constitutional rights and the city's malfeseance directly.  The courts, thus far, decline to address anything outside the very  narrow scope of our application, the city's denial and application of codes directly pertaining to that.
Working to add categories for private adult groups comes later (as does the lawsuit to address the many violations of our rights that have occurred during the city's attempt to use their deep pockets to regulate what the law would have allowed.)


EDIT:  Re the NCSF, even if they won't provide financial or legal support, can they put Enclave owners in touch with others in the country who may have successfully made changes to their local laws?


Michael:
The NCSF cannot, under their charter, provide financial support.  As for legal support:  They are reviewing the Appeals court paperwork at this time. 
Both the NCSF and the ACLU, at this point, appear unwilling or unable to initiate legal action against the city on our behalf until the State Supreme Court rules on the city's current appeal.



MichaelR -> RE: BDSM Crisis in Denver (11/18/2007 7:22:22 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BringerOfTears

That really surprises me that NCSF is of no help, I am going to check with some friends who raise a lot of money for them.  I realize the case that could be made that this is a "business" and not strictly a sex issue but having play spaces is a subject near and dear to many of us.



Michael responds:
Yes, we are a business.  One of the inequities the city has applied to us is that even though we are a private, nonprofit group and such groups are exempt from business licensing here (and in most every jurisdiction), because of the adult content of our gatherings they claim a right to regulate us more stringently than other organizations.  Truth be told, I can take either side of that argument.  Even if no business license was required, actions and activities are regulated by zoning.   BDSM clubs involve two categories of actions/activities that are regulated by all jurisdictions.   One is called  "specified anatomical areas" and involves nudity and when/where/how it is allowed.  the other is  "specified sexual activities" which involves contact and when/where/how it is allowed.
The courts have long agreed that certain things can be regulated more intensely than others.  Adult content, like liquor, is one of them.

SMOddessey in San Francisco (San Jose actually) does a LOT of education for law enforcement on bdsm and runs HUGE events.  There is also a playspace that they support called Edges.  They have some good information.

http://www.smodyssey.com/node/20


In San Francisco, there is a MAJOR sex club that advertises in the local papers and the owner is running for mayor.  www.powerexchange.com  Another one I don't have the web site for but a major producer of porno/website stuff bought a HUGE brick building in SF and uses it for all sorts of stuff.  Lastly there is http://www.sfcitadel.org/

I would check with APEX in Arizona as they run a large playspace and of course www.TES.org and see if they can provide any help.

Lair De Sade is a large venue in LA although I have only heard about them  http://www.lairdesade.com/

Someone posted about the WetSpot in Seattle, I would find them.







MichaelR -> RE: BDSM Crisis in Denver (11/18/2007 7:36:47 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rover

Several observations:
 
1.  The NCSF is closely monitoring this situation. 
 
Michael responds:  Susan and John over at NCSF have been in contact several times in recent months.  I've send the info to them for review.

 
2.  As of June, the club owners denied that financial considerations would prevent them from fully exercising their legal rights.   http://www.westword.com/2007-06-07/news/kink-in-the-system
 
Michael responds:  I think I said that despite what the city wished, that folks were coming out in greater numbers to show support.  Not being Bill Gates, I certainly wouldn't have attempted to give the impression that I could match the city, dollar for dollar, in this fight.
3.  That is not to say that the club owners would not appreciate financial contributions on their behalf.  However, you can't just send them money in the mail.  Find out if they have a legal defense fund to which you can contribute.  If such a fund does not exist, then they're not asking for help. 
 
4.  So far the club owners have been successful at each stage of the legal process, and there's little reason to believe they will not succeed at the State Supreme Court as well.
 
Michael responds:  Well, I certainly think so, assuming we're still here to fight when it gets heard.  We won this on the merits nearly three years ago.  The rest has all been stalling, dishonesty and bias on the city's part.  Yea, everyone fighting the govt says that, but ya know, not a single lawyer who's seen the filings on this disagrees.  It doesn't seem to be a matter of right or wrong, but more of finding a court that's willing to slap a city down when they fuck up.  The appeals court did so.   Unanimously.  On the other hand they, too, ducked several issues by declining to address the city's conduct in any fashion, outside of noting that our right to due process was violated.

 
5.  This could provide a landmark case in favor of clubs nationwide.  Though I do not believe state cases set legal precedent in other states, judges in other states would have the discretion of considering this case if they so choose.  I'm not an attorney, but I believe that's the case.
 
6.  Clubs in other states are being closed legally because of their failure to adhere to existing regulations (such as fire codes, electrical codes, building codes, etc) which are required of ALL business (ie: they are not being singled out).  Their closure can be blamed on no one but themselves.  The Enclave case is unique (as far as I'm aware) in the misapplication of Commerce City's own existing laws regarding sexually oriented businesses (ie: they're violating their own rules), and it is on that basis that the lawsuit had been filed and successfully adjudicated.
 
Michael responds:  Bingo!   The truth is, it's actually very hard to find cases of bdsm clubs being closed where the LEGAL reason was related to their content.  Two years of research prior to opening the club, and four years since then show me that in each case they are able to avoid addressing content.   They start with the things most easily addressed. (and which you can't claim bias over).   Fired code, egress, parking comes first.  If that doesn't work they move to licensing.  If you qualify for a license they move to zoning.   Our goal was to eliminate all those legalities so that IF they wanted to go after us they'd have to do so by opening going after the content, ie: bdsm.
My mistake was in assuming that if we complied with all directives the city issued that they would either address bdsm or leave us be.   Though I know that the government will cheat when it needs to to attain it's goal, I never considered that they would actually lie, break the law, etc in such a bold fashion to do so.
 
John



MichaelR -> RE: BDSM Crisis in Denver (11/18/2007 8:00:32 PM)

Michael responds:

Soz, You've really hit the nail on the head.  It's all about IF they choose to come after you.  You say someone complained and the city let it go. That's great.  It means that the complaint wasn't from a person or group with the power to push things.  Trust me, if it was Focus on Family or someone running for office or a big political contributor or something, things might be different.

As I mentioned in an earlier post (and have said often in discussions on this type of thing and in the Westword article, it's always about whether or not they choose to go after you.  The "line troops", such as police and inspectors, just don't have the time or energy to bother with consenting adults.  I worked behind a badge many years ago.  Harassing grownups for things that don't hurt others just isn't a high priority for those guys.   I told the reporter that it's like "don't ask/don't tell".  They WANT us to work in that grey area where they'll leave us alone as long as nothing happens.  Hell, after the spanking the Appeals court gave them the city offered to allow us to operate without a license.  (Interesting as they are the ones that insisted we had to go through the process to obtain one to begin with).   and as long as there were no complaints they would leave us be.  If there were complaints, of course, they'd then have to look into whether we were in compliance with all applicable licensing and zoning.   That's what the city offered.  
Naturally, they'd love that as it give them a pocket veto.  First time they want us gone they go:   Ooops, you have adult content and thus must be licensed.  double OOOPS, you can't have that kind of activity in that location.  And you're gone.

Being private doesn't allow us to be exempt from the restrictions on adult content.  nor to claim that when someone's naked and having their tits or asses touched that it's not adult content.  Without specific categories separating that content from other types of nudity and touching, legally it's the same thing.

If something of value changes hands for good or services, it's a commercial enterprise.   So, without a law change, if I go to the club, strip a gal down and pinch her nipples/slap her ass/ whatever....and we paid to go in, the city has a valid legal argument that we have a commercial adult business and thus regulated by adult code.  And they'll win until the law is changed.

so, our approach was:
Can they legally claim we have adult content
    Yes.  To say that we don't fit the definitions of specified sexual activities or specified anatomical areas is a losing battle.  We do.
Can they regulate that
    Yes.   And ya know, I'm okay with fair, and fairly applied, adult regulation.  As nice as the Enclave is, I don't want it outside of regulation.  If it were, then the next guy could open one next to my house, or a school.  
Is that allowed in our location
    Yes.  This is the major thing.  If adult content is legal in a club's location, then they can't just shove us away at will.  They then need more reason than adult content itself to stop us.

Which, to me, is the only way to go.  Operating in a fashion that allows them to close a bdsm club down at will or because someone complains only allows them to keep us in that dark, dirty place in our heads and hearts that says we are less than, or not entitled to the same things, as other people in society.  By going along with the wink wink/nod nod, "we'll leave you alone as long as nothing happens" paradigm the cities want (which leaves us completely at their mercies) we assist in the marginalization of our individual selves.



quote:

ORIGINAL: MsSaskia

quote:

ORIGINAL: MystressDream

 
We have had a club closed here in Denver also.  The Labyrinth.  Believe me, when a city sets out to close a club of this nature, they ALWAYS look for some kind of zoning or code issue to use to close it so they don't have to face the real reason.  The Enclave has adhered to every single code on the books, and that is why the city has not been able to use a code violation to shut them down.
 
There is a donation option on their website for donations to the legal defense.  Any help would be appreciated.


The Denver Sanctuary has been in business as a leather/BDSM lifestyle club for awhile now, and the Harbour for several years before them.  The City and County of Denver is aware of their presence and has had a hands-off relationship with the club so far, despite one person repeatedly making anonymous complaints.  Denver and Commerce City are very different, but it's definitely an enforcement choice made by respective city authorities, subject to change without notice.  There'd be a lot more assurance of legal protection if there were more legal precedent around the country, but when you get a prosecutor with a bug up their bum, as is happening in Commerce City, and they want to keep prosecuting minutae with the intent of bleeding a business dry, they'll do that.   Contributing to the legal defense fund will help the Enclave set a legal precedent.  

Are there more fundraisers coming up?





MichaelR -> RE: BDSM Crisis in Denver (11/18/2007 8:25:37 PM)

Just a couple of notes:

Thanks for everyone that voiced support.  

And for those that asked questions.  Nothing is ever crystal clear.  And this stuff is about as murky as mudwater.
Thanks also for the links people suggested.  Some we've already addressed, some are new to us.

Apologies for the length of posts.  The cities actions have resulted in huge expenditures on our part.  Not just money, either.  We've also spent a great deal of our emotional and physical well-being on keep our chins up as the city tries to hammer us down.  (what was that old line:  the nail that sticks up gets hammered...*chuckling)
As a result, to say I'm passionate...or angry..or frustrated..or even scared would be an understatement.
So, I tend to go off about this stuff.  My friends know better than to bring it up unless they have a couple of hours to listen to me rail on about it.  

I can give you some basics, if things still are fuzzy (lord knows I'M fuzzy at times)
These are my beliefs, based on my research and experience over the past six years.

- Without proper license and zoning, I don't believe any bdsm club that allows play can stand IF they come after you.
- Declaring ourselves private won't protect us from regulation (if it did, the church would run whorehouses)
- Continuing to play the don't ask/don't tell game with cities allows them to treat us as beneath them and as less viable as part of society
- We only entered into this endeavor having vowed to follow all rules and regs.  We decline to hide or lie in order to be ourselves.
- We complied with the cities directives at every turn. 
- We won this case and our right to a license on the merits, and way back in '05
- Once the city realized they lost they tossed out the rule book.
- They have violated our rights. 
- The pattern of behavior, dating back to zoning officials verifying that our location DID support adult content prior to our purchase of the property, when taken as a whole (and when factored with the failure to obey their own codes and ongoing dishonest statements and sidestepping) clearly indicate that this is NOT a content neutral application of code.
- This pattern indicates an attempt, at any cost, to prevent a group that the city finds distasteful from existing legally within their limits.
- This behavior, if not stopped, will not only have an affect on our group and other local groups, but will have a chilling affect on adult behavior and/or business in general.


This ain't Selma and we ain't Rosa Parks, we're just plain folks trying to be who we are.  We followed all the rules they presented.  They're the ones that broached the law, their duty and common decency.  They tried to use the system to win and we beat them with their own system.   I can't imagine anyone who'd find who we are and what we do (in private and only amongst those that wish to be involved) to be so threatening that they'd willingly throw the very foundations that our society operates on out the window.



MystressDream -> RE: BDSM Crisis in Denver (11/19/2007 7:52:20 AM)

Michael.... Thank you for posting and providing all those answers.  I hope more people join in the fight.  <smile>
 
 



MAtropos -> RE: BDSM Crisis in Denver (11/19/2007 5:50:34 PM)

The Enclave is a wonderful club that definitely has the potential to be a rallying place for those of us in the local community.  Even if you just donate $5 via the legal defense fund button on www.wnclavewest.com, you are supporting our efforts at bringing BDSM clubs support nationwide.  The Owners have done something no one else has dared to do...believe we have a right to assemble and share our interests...believe that what we do is not wrong and deserving of a dirty "back alley" type of club...believe that we, as a people, have the right to exist shamefree.

Support The Enclave.  Any amount will help.



teesa -> RE: BDSM Crisis in Denver (11/19/2007 6:30:55 PM)

WOW!!! BlackWulf Sir if I was not on the band wagon before I would be now. 



MystressDream -> RE: BDSM Crisis in Denver (11/20/2007 7:29:59 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MAtropos

The Enclave is a wonderful club that definitely has the potential to be a rallying place for those of us in the local community.  Even if you just donate $5 via the legal defense fund button on www.wnclavewest.com, you are supporting our efforts at bringing BDSM clubs support nationwide.  The Owners have done something no one else has dared to do...believe we have a right to assemble and share our interests...believe that what we do is not wrong and deserving of a dirty "back alley" type of club...believe that we, as a people, have the right to exist shamefree.

Support The Enclave.  Any amount will help.


This is a wonderful idea.  Considering what we pay for a flogger or whip, I find it hard to believe that we all can't make a small donation to this cause.  Our rights are being tromped on, and I hope our national community will want to join this fight.  Thank you to all who have already shown your support.



DarkDaddyZ -> RE: BDSM Crisis in Denver (11/21/2007 9:25:02 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MichaelR

Just a couple of notes:

This ain't Selma and we ain't Rosa Parks, we're just plain folks trying to be who we are.  We followed all the rules they presented.  They're the ones that broached the law, their duty and common decency.  They tried to use the system to win and we beat them with their own system.   I can't imagine anyone who'd find who we are and what we do (in private and only amongst those that wish to be involved) to be so threatening that they'd willingly throw the very foundations that our society operates on out the window.

While I know what point you were trying to make by your post just remember this VERY important thought in the struggle for your organization:

Rosa Parks was just plain folk too.

Best to you,
Z-



submittous -> RE: BDSM Crisis in Denver (11/21/2007 12:33:19 PM)

We've been down here in Mexico for 3 years now but used to be active in the public scene in Denver, back to the DADS days and we were there for the demise of the Lab, the old PEP's play space and Uncommon Ground. It is hopeful and refreshing to see the current groups in Denver having the integrity and resourcefulness to stand up to irrational government pressure instead of running like rats from a sinking ship. The good people who run the Enclave, the Sanctuary and of course that put on Thunder have shown that while it is not easy it can be done. There is no substitute for leadership and ethics. We believe they  are due all of our thanks and support.... We say all because in the end every communities success makes the next easier and we are facing a tough road if we want to have our rights as citizens recognized.

We certainly wish the the Enclave well and hope they get the support they need now and have the results they deserve.

A quick hello to the Black Wulf and any others who might remember us from our years in Denver.

Bill and Linda (Iris)



MystressDream -> RE: BDSM Crisis in Denver (11/27/2007 3:51:50 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: submittous

We've been down here in Mexico for 3 years now but used to be active in the public scene in Denver, back to the DADS days and we were there for the demise of the Lab, the old PEP's play space and Uncommon Ground. It is hopeful and refreshing to see the current groups in Denver having the integrity and resourcefulness to stand up to irrational government pressure instead of running like rats from a sinking ship. The good people who run the Enclave, the Sanctuary and of course that put on Thunder have shown that while it is not easy it can be done. There is no substitute for leadership and ethics. We believe they  are due all of our thanks and support.... We say all because in the end every communities success makes the next easier and we are facing a tough road if we want to have our rights as citizens recognized.

We certainly wish the the Enclave well and hope they get the support they need now and have the results they deserve.

A quick hello to the Black Wulf and any others who might remember us from our years in Denver.

Bill and Linda (Iris)


Thank you for the endorsement and support.  A few have used the "donate" button on the website to help with this fight.... but, very few.  I find it frustrating that so few seem to care.  If you wish, the chance to help is at the Enclave website and you can reach it by using the link in my signature.
 
Thank you



MystressDream -> RE: BDSM Crisis in Denver (12/8/2007 10:40:23 AM)

I want to thank the few of you who have taken an interest in this fight.  Even though this could have national implications legally, very few people seem to care.  Seems to be another "Let others deal with the cost and fight the fight... I will just sit back and enjoy the benefits."  It's really sad... but, human nature, I guess.



Heartisan -> RE: BDSM Crisis in Denver (12/8/2007 12:03:09 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: thetammyjo

When I saw the title of this post it interested me because I've applied to two different universities in Denver and part of the reason was the active scene community that seemed to be there.


I want to add my two cents to what MystressDream said.  I've been in Denver for 9 years and absolutely love it.  It's beautiful, and the community is awesome for the most part.  I would also love to be one of those able to welcome you here and encourage you to maybe visit, and visit the clubs yourself and see what you think.



Heartisan -> RE: BDSM Crisis in Denver (12/8/2007 12:09:51 PM)

quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: clover0320

I live in Colorado Springs and I would be happy to help out any way that I can. I have a very close Dom friend that lives here too and he will help out as well. Neither of us are in a position at this time to monetarily help, but we'll do anything else until which time we are better able to monetarily help out. Is the auction in January open to those of us that are non-members? Feel free to e-mail me with anything I can do. :-)

-edited to add- I posted the OP on another forum that I read. I'll forward any helpful information to you MystressDream.



Thank you, clover0320. If you can't make a donation, you might consider coming up and attending a mixer or two. We have several members from the Springs. If you do, ask for me at the door and I would love to meet you.
quote:

ORIGINAL: MystressDream

quote:

ORIGINAL: clover0320

I live in Colorado Springs and I would be happy to help out any way that I can. I have a very close Dom friend that lives here too and he will help out as well. Neither of us are in a position at this time to monetarily help, but we'll do anything else until which time we are better able to monetarily help out. Is the auction in January open to those of us that are non-members? Feel free to e-mail me with anything I can do. :-)

-edited to add- I posted the OP on another forum that I read. I'll forward any helpful information to you MystressDream.



Thank you, clover0320.  If you can't make a donation, you might consider coming up and attending a mixer or two.  We have several members from the Springs.  <smile>  If you do, ask for me at the door and I would love to meet you. 


If I am right I think they have been there no?  I think I did their tour and then got them in touch wtih a couple people from the Springs.
Either way... HI !!  [sm=hello.gif]





MystressDream -> RE: BDSM Crisis in Denver (12/8/2007 1:39:19 PM)

Jewel.... Yes, the did come to the Enclave... after writing this post.  <smile>  Wonderful couple!



Heartisan -> RE: BDSM Crisis in Denver (12/9/2007 4:33:15 PM)

I don't know much about the legal stuff, or what other groups across the country are like.  I have spent my entire 9 year bdsm life in Denver.  I don't have as many years or as much experience as a lot of you people either.  I am also not as articulate as most or as intelligent as many, but what I do say comes from the heart and is completely sincere.

All I know is that I am one person who finds Michael and Deb amazing for what they have done.  Not only in the wider legal and financial issue here, but in just making the club what it is.  With all the stress of the legal and financial issues have caused, they are there every weekend making each member feel welcome, safe and comfortable.  For some of us it's become a kind of second home ... and second family in come cases.  The *living room* and *kitchen* are wonderfully homey and the play areas are clean, comfortable and have a variety of well built and beautiful equipment.  There is artwork all around the club that Deb picked out and there is something there for every interested, they are beautiful and tasteful.  The bathrooms are clean, bright and have little extras to make people at home.  Within the midst of the bigger picture, they have taken the time to consider details to make the club what it is.  The pictures on the website are great, but do not do it justice.  Those who can should come see for themselves.

In my opinion, fighting for the club will not only help in making more legal clubs possible across the country, but also raise the quality of clubs as well because people will be willing to put more money into something that is not likely to be closed in a couple years.  Hopefully there will be more that are able to openly advertise in the future to make more of those people who might be interested in the lifestyle know they have a safe place to go and meet people.  It really does impact all of us in one way or another right down to the person who sits home alone feeling like there is something wrong with the fantasies they have or the desires they feel because they don't know that there is somewhere they can fit.  Or the subs who have only met online *wannabe* Doms that really need to know what it's like to have real experienced people to talk to in a safe place where they can learn before getting into trouble.  Sharing experiences and knowledge makes our community stronger, and our reputation not as scary.  Though the legal precident is VERY important, there are other ripple effects that will come from the Enclave's success as well.

So, I have selfish reasons for not wanting the Enclave to close, it would break my heart.  We are there every weekend and though we have our own little financial issues, every extra bit we have for *entertainment* goes to the club.  It's not much, but every little bit from lots of people adds up.  I beg the local members to show up every weekend or at least one or two more times a month than you are.  And I beg everyone reading this to use that donate button on the website.  $5.00 really would make a big difference if more did it.  I know it's hard this time of year, and there are all sorts of people asking for money (including retailers lol) but keep it in mind as well for when you do have that little extra cash.  This really does imact everyone of us.

*on her knees doing her best subbie begging with the big brown eyes*



teesa -> RE: BDSM Crisis in Denver (12/23/2007 5:53:57 PM)

Happy Holidays everyone,

I am here again to shout out my support for the Enclave. After seeing Deb fight her health issues and the way the people at the club banded together to help out it made me wish that there were more people out there that cared even half as much. Recently we had a tragedy hit our community and I have seen people surrounding a dear friend with love and support. I have not been in the scene for to many years but I can tell when a place is worth fighting for. Michel and Deb have put up a good fight for what they believe in and I am sure they will fight for as long as they are able. The preferable end of the fight is to finally win this fight and move on with our lives as a whole. I believe that the government is sticking its proverbial nose out there only to get it cut off by its own rules.You don't have to out yourself to help out the club and what they are fighting for. To be honest I am proud to have such a beautiful place to go every weekend and hang out with others like Master and myself. The group of people is so diverse and I learn something new every time I go. The discussions that are had, even in small groups, hit all over the scales. I have made some good friends and have found that if anyone can help the club it is those of us that have even the slitest idea of what the fight is about. If you don't know go check out the site and read the information provided on the links provided there. Learn about what we are talking about rather than just turning your head the other way and ignoring something that could very well effect your lifestyle someday.

*sighs* ok I am done ranting for now

Please visit www.enclavewest.com and learn more about this fight and donate at the donation button if you can. For those localy, come out and visit the place and see what is all about. We would love to have you not only for your attendance but to meet you and maybe gain a life long friend.





Morniel -> RE: BDSM Crisis in Denver (12/27/2007 11:03:53 PM)

Other clubs or organisations not responding? Possibly they don't want to come under scrutiny themselves, whether or not they're doing anything "wrong" or "bad", because they don't want to have to engage in their own legal battles, which might result from such publicity.

Western society is very willing to give up freedom for security.  Look around if you don't believe that.  The US, specifically, has ignored its own Constitution, particularly the parts relating to a "separation of church and state".  If there was a separation between church and state, then same-gender marriage would be legal (for instance); the prohibitions against such marriage are based in the judaeo-christian-islaamic tradition, and those religions are not universal.

Patrick Henry was quoted earlier; and here's another quote, from I believe Voltaire (tho I am probably wrong about the source)

"It is placing a high value on our ideas to roast men alive because of them".... Yet, people are roasted alive (and I'm not talking about heretics only) on a daily basis, in the so-called "free world".

And so on.  But don't be so quick to frown on those who feel that for their own preservation, they must stay out of this particular boxing ring.



Rover -> RE: BDSM Crisis in Denver (12/28/2007 5:45:55 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Morniel

The US, specifically, has ignored its own Constitution, particularly the parts relating to a "separation of church and state". 


Ah, another American that "knows their rights".  Please point to me where "separation of church and state" appear in the Constitution, as you have asserted.  I'll be waiting a very, very long time because it doesn't appear there at all.
 
The concept of separation of church and state was created during the 1940's by Supreme Court Justice Hugo Black, a racist KKK sympathizer who, like many clansmen, also hated Catholics and wanted to ensure that the Catholic Church could not influence American politics.  I know, it's difficult to believe in this day and age, but folks actually thought that John F. Kennedy would take marching orders from the Pope and would not vote for him. 
 
America was founded with religious principles, and one should not confuse "separation of church and state" with "separation of religion and state".  In the first instance, there exists a prohibition for a state sponsored church (such as the Church of England), whereas the second prohibits anything of religious value.  In other words the Constitutional intent was to protect religion from governmental influence, rather than to protect government from religious influence.  And no, this does not mean that America was a theocracy (such an overused, misunderstood, and misapplied term in that regard).
 
Read the biographies of our founding fathers, read their speeches, read their diaries and you'd find it impossible to conclude that they intended American politics or government to be free of religion.  In fact, read our country's most important documents (such as the Declaration of Independence), and/or walk amongst our federal buildings in Washington, DC (the Ten Commandments are chiseled into the the Supreme Court chambers for crying out loud) and you'll see religion mentioned everywhere.  Read the speeches and biographies of Presidents throughout the years.  Franklin Roosevelt makes modern Presidents sound like the devil incarnate. 
 
That is, by necessity, the abridged version of history and leaves out many fine points.  But if this silly issue is being raised, it may as well be viewed in its historically accurate context.
 
John



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