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RE: The Insanity of Bush Hatred - 11/20/2007 6:37:38 AM   
caitlyn


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver
Ron, the supporters of the war want to be blind and illiterate but why, who knows? You would think all Americans would be angry with Bush, the way he has put dollars into his cronies pockets and been maverick with the economy and ignored the real threat to the US, a economically vigorous China. Bush should have been concentrating on making the US economy competitive for future security not going around the world on military jollies.


This thread is largely illustrative of the original and actual point of this post, so I picked it out of thousands. The fact that it came from Meatcleaver, is an added bonus.
 
Believe it or not, there are a some of us "blind and illiterate" masses, that can differ with someone's policies, without being angry at them.
 
Amazingly, some of us "stupid folks" can actually tow that fine line ... I'm basically completely against the war, but at the same time, every single person I know (and these days, I know a lot more than most) that has served over there, insists that the war is worthwhile, and that people outside Iraq have no clue about what's going on over there. Now, either argument can be hashed about forever ... but the point: What is the logic in finding hate and anger, within an issue that is clearly, unclear?
 
Simply put, for all the intelligencia wants to insist that support for President Bush is (insert insult here) ... I think an equal case can be made that hatred and anger, really is irrational.
 
Simple question: How many good decisions have people made, out of hatred and anger?
 
By the way ... this was primarily a general response.

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RE: The Insanity of Bush Hatred - 11/20/2007 11:28:31 AM   
Sanity


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver
No I don't believe the Iraqi people need a bloody dictator to control the country but I don't believe you can impose an alien political system on a country either which was why Iraq existed and ended up with a bloody didctator and I don't believe the Americans have freed the Iraqi people either or care for their freedoms and wellbeings. We all know that the US having failed in their quest want to cut and run.



Freedom isn't an "alien system" at all, meatcleaver. It's the one perfectly natural system, quite the opposite of Socialism in fact (which is entirely a man-made religion, really). And while you may HOPE that the United States fails, your statement that it HAS failed is merely wishful thinking on your part.

quote:


Actually the original complaint about Americans wanting to steal Iraqi oil by pressurizing the Iraqi parliament into privatizing their oil and giving US companies lucrative contracts was made by IRAQI MEMBERS OF PARLIAMENT. The suspicion of the world is that the Iraqi invasion was about oil, the US policy in Iraq is strengthening that suspicion.


So, an Iraqi member of parliament said that...

Well, an AMERICAN member of Congress said that he once saw a UFO - does that mean that you will now suddenly believe in little green men? Or what exactly is the word of one politician worth to you...

And what "world suspicion" are you talking about. That's something that you just invented, isn't it. At any rate, that kind of a weak claim isn't worth anything.

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RE: The Insanity of Bush Hatred - 11/20/2007 12:39:15 PM   
luckydog1


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Status: offline 		Of course Meat gets to speak for the world....

By the way Meat, you brought that freedom is German occupation quote up in the OP of the post I cited.  I do think it is one of the dumbest things I have ever read.  What he was describing is not freedom.  I am sure being under occupation and risking death in resistance is many things, very intense, but freedom is not one of them.

Caitlyn that pretty much sums it up, great point, all people regardless of of opinion (myself included)should reflect on it

Simple question: How many good decisions have people made, out of hatred and anger?


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RE: The Insanity of Bush Hatred - 11/20/2007 1:06:41 PM   
farglebargle


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Status: offline 		"Simple question: How many good decisions have people made, out of hatred and anger?"

Simple answer: As many good decisions as bad.

PROOF: Given the "trousers of time" hypothesis, each individual is constantly making decisions, so even with a finite number of individuals, in any reasonably sized population the $NUMBER_OF_DECISIONS is going to approach infinity, therefore, we can discard the "out of hatred and anger" qualifier and consider the quantification of $GOOD_DECISIONS and $BAD_DECISIONS.

That is always going to be roughly equal, given you're dividing by something approaching infinity.







< Message edited by farglebargle -- 11/20/2007 1:07:56 PM >

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RE: The Insanity of Bush Hatred - 11/20/2007 1:36:15 PM   
luckydog1


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Status: offline 		I don't think that follows farg.  I couldn't find trousers of time on Google, except in reference to alternate realities in science fiction.  It doesn't seem to be an accepted hypothesis (or to even be clearly defined, its origins seem to be the comic book universe to explain the descrepancies between the various incarnations of Batman ect), so see no reason to accept it as fact.  and reasoning based on it as esentially meaningless.

I see no reason to define the number of decisions as infinite.  It would certainly be a very large number, but not infinite.  eventually there will be no more people(one way or the other) and we will stop making decisions, so the decision making process will stop.   Good decisions vs bad decsions is very subjective, so would be a perception based thing.  An opinion.  I see very few good decisions made from anger or hatred.  You can say you see it different.  But you didn't logically proove they are equal.

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RE: The Insanity of Bush Hatred - 11/20/2007 2:29:34 PM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver
No I don't believe the Iraqi people need a bloody dictator to control the country but I don't believe you can impose an alien political system on a country either which was why Iraq existed and ended up with a bloody didctator and I don't believe the Americans have freed the Iraqi people either or care for their freedoms and wellbeings. We all know that the US having failed in their quest want to cut and run.



Freedom isn't an "alien system" at all, meatcleaver. It's the one perfectly natural system, quite the opposite of Socialism in fact (which is entirely a man-made religion, really). And while you may HOPE that the United States fails, your statement that it HAS failed is merely wishful thinking on your part.


Define freedom. What is freedom to you is not necessarily what freedom means to someone else. I'm pretty certain Europeans have different definitions of freedom  the ideological American one and our cultures are very similar with the same roots. America is imposing its will on another culture, that is not freedom.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

Actually the original complaint about Americans wanting to steal Iraqi oil by pressurizing the Iraqi parliament into privatizing their oil and giving US companies lucrative contracts was made by IRAQI MEMBERS OF PARLIAMENT. The suspicion of the world is that the Iraqi invasion was about oil, the US policy in Iraq is strengthening that suspicion.


So, an Iraqi member of parliament said that...

Well, an AMERICAN member of Congress said that he once saw a UFO - does that mean that you will now suddenly believe in little green men? Or what exactly is the word of one politician worth to you...

And what "world suspicion" are you talking about. That's something that you just invented, isn't it. At any rate, that kind of a weak claim isn't worth anything.


Yeah, when you have no answer don't answer the question.

If you believe Bush, not even he seems to know why he invaded Iraq, his reasons change with the wind so no one else is going to know for certain as no one can look into his head. If there is anything there. One just has to follow the money and the overwhelming interest the Bush administration has in Iraqi oil.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 11/20/2007 2:30:16 PM >

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RE: The Insanity of Bush Hatred - 11/20/2007 2:44:19 PM   
Politesub53


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Status: offline 		The war with Iraq may not be entirely due to oil, but oil does play a part of it. Not just oil reserves but also the petrodollar. Iraq had started to trade in Euro`s which, if all other oil producers did the same, would have an adverse effect on the Dollar and the American economy.

http://socrates.berkeley.edu/~pdscott/iraq.html

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RE: The Insanity of Bush Hatred - 11/20/2007 2:48:14 PM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

The war with Iraq may not be entirely due to oil, but oil does play a part of it. Not just oil reserves but also the petrodollar. Iraq had started to trade in Euro`s which, if all other oil producers did the same, would have an adverse effect on the Dollar and the American economy.

http://socrates.berkeley.edu/~pdscott/iraq.html


Iran is thinking of doing the same thing so we can expect trouble there too.

Actually it makes sense Britain supporting the US because Britain not being a Euro country and having vast dollar investments would also lose substantially.

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RE: The Insanity of Bush Hatred - 11/20/2007 4:23:23 PM   
Sanity


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Status: offline 		I suppose that if the topic is changing over to left-wing conspiracy theories, I'll bow out now and let you two have at it...

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

The war with Iraq may not be entirely due to oil, but oil does play a part of it. Not just oil reserves but also the petrodollar. Iraq had started to trade in Euro`s which, if all other oil producers did the same, would have an adverse effect on the Dollar and the American economy.

http://socrates.berkeley.edu/~pdscott/iraq.html


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RE: The Insanity of Bush Hatred - 11/20/2007 5:52:00 PM   
farglebargle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

I suppose that if the topic is changing over to left-wing conspiracy theories, I'll bow out now and let you two have at it...

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

The war with Iraq may not be entirely due to oil, but oil does play a part of it. Not just oil reserves but also the petrodollar. Iraq had started to trade in Euro`s which, if all other oil producers did the same, would have an adverse effect on the Dollar and the American economy.

http://socrates.berkeley.edu/~pdscott/iraq.html




Yeah, it's pretty clear that the move into Iraq in 2003 was Bush obeying Bin Laden's demands to withdraw the US Troops from his homeland, Saudi Arabia, going back to the late 90's.

It took Bush a few years to obey, but eventually he did. Witness the Bush Administrations refusal to denounce the torture of a rape victim. They're Saudi Appeasers -- Some would consider that "Aid and Comfort" to an enemy.





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RE: The Insanity of Bush Hatred - 11/20/2007 5:57:58 PM   
farglebargle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1

I don't think that follows farg. I couldn't find trousers of time on Google, except in reference to alternate realities in science fiction. It doesn't seem to be an accepted hypothesis (or to even be clearly defined, its origins seem to be the comic book universe to explain the descrepancies between the various incarnations of Batman ect), so see no reason to accept it as fact. and reasoning based on it as esentially meaningless.


Sometimes you guys make this all just too easy.

quote:


I see no reason to define the number of decisions as infinite. It would certainly be a very large number, but not infinite. eventually there will be no more people(one way or the other) and we will stop making decisions, so the decision making process will stop.


That's a defeatist attitude. My first questions is: "OK, then quantify the number of decisions you're making every moment." I suggest that EVERY CONSCIOUS ACT counts. That's a whole lotta acts. And since you're going to multiply that out by the Grand Total of humans in history, "Approaches Infinity" seems a valid value. More reasonable than: "A whole lot, but since everyone is going to die, it's not going to approach infinity".

quote:


Good decisions vs bad decsions is very subjective, so would be a perception based thing. An opinion. I see very few good decisions made from anger or hatred. You can say you see it different. But you didn't logically proove they are equal.


Well, you're going to need to quantify the number of decisions you see. And the number made from anger and hatred, and the outcomes to support your hypothesis.

So, it's not a simple question, is it?

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ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

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RE: The Insanity of Bush Hatred - 11/20/2007 9:38:10 PM   
luckydog1


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Status: offline 		If you had to do a complete accounting in order to determine <,>, or + that would make sense.  But since you don't, it doesn't.  Neither does logic based on comic books hypothesis have any bearing on reality.

But as I have already said it is a perceptual thing, so neither of us can proove the main question. 

I think it is a very simple question.

If you feel that Hatred and Anger, is a healthy place to operate from, that is your valid perception.  I do understand you better now. 

And again you have illustrated the point of the thread

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RE: The Insanity of Bush Hatred - 11/20/2007 10:58:47 PM   
farglebargle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1

If you had to do a complete accounting in order to determine <,>, or + that would make sense. But since you don't, it doesn't. Neither does logic based on comic books hypothesis have any bearing on reality.



Going back to your original question: "How many good decisions have people made, out of hatred and anger?"

I do not see how you can possibly answer it WITHOUT quantifying, at least, the variables:

$NUMBER_OF_DECISIONS_MADE

$NUMBER_OF_GOOD_OUTCOMES, and $NUMBER_OF_BAD_OUTCOMES to answer that question.

I suggested that because $NUMBER_OF_DECISIONS_MADE approaches infinity under my preferred conditions. ( Humanity not becoming extinct ), than the ratio of good to bad will approach 1.

Now, what is this "Comic Book" of which you speak? My reference is from a novel, but actually refers to the well known issues of choosing a literary "Point of Departure" in the Alternative History genre, and the implications of the number of PODs becoming arbitrarily large.

quote:


If you feel that Hatred and Anger, is a healthy place to operate from, that is your valid perception.


It can be.

If someone should happen across a child-rapist in the act, and acting out of Hatred and Anger beat the rapist to death, I would consider that a very good thing.


< Message edited by farglebargle -- 11/20/2007 11:07:58 PM >

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RE: The Insanity of Bush Hatred - 11/20/2007 11:16:59 PM   
luckydog1


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Status: offline 		Or imagine a very small pile of Red beans and a very large pile of Black beans.  It is not necessarry to count them all exactly to see which is larger.

Or a stream of red or balck beans going by one at a time, not randomly.  If there are far more red than black it will be apperant.

Lookingup the trousers of time refernce, it cited the DC comic universe as the  source, and mentioned it is a staple in alternate history sci fi.  But so what?  Why would that make it any more true than a Time machine?  Wouldn't you consider it an invalid argument if I started giving you statements on the world based on the logic of using a time machine?

I think the hardest part of trying to actually totaly quuantify the issue would be in the defining of good vs non good choices.  Pretty every scientific adn religious thought holds that someday we will be no more.  whether evolved into something else.  or the entropy death of the universe, or the black holes such up everything and the last 2 colide causing a new big bang, or God calls it Omega.  I think most reasonably we will cease to exist someday, hence the number of human decisions will be finite.  Probably remaining an unknown but still finite and arguments based on infinity baseless.  Whatever insanely large number it is, it could be reduced through ratios to managable numbers.

I also do not see the human condition as changing while we remain human, so I feel I can extrapolate from my experiences, my observations of others, literature, and some iffy scientific stuff about cooperation.

You are free to make decisions on Hate and Anger if you want...My statement was subjective opinion, I concede that.

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RE: The Insanity of Bush Hatred - 11/20/2007 11:23:29 PM   
luckydog1


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Status: offline 		I think that acting out of hatred and especially anger clouds the judgement, and would weaken you as you justifyably attack the child molestor, to defend innocent children and society in general.  Never heard of a martial art based on hate and anger, they generally teach to be very cool calm and detached for combat.  Well actually in the Sci fi world "Bezerking", might qualify, but again that is fantasy. Or the 'Darkside of the Force'.

I would have to concede that there must be some exceptions where hate and anger is plus, none come to mind off hand though.

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RE: The Insanity of Bush Hatred - 11/20/2007 11:31:21 PM   
SimplyMichael


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Status: offline 		Caitlyn,

quote:

  Amazingly, some of us "stupid folks" can actually tow that fine line ... I'm basically completely against the war, but at the same time, every single person I know (and these days, I know a lot more than most) that has served over there, insists that the war is worthwhile, and that people outside Iraq have no clue about what's going on over there. Now, either argument can be hashed about forever ... but the point: What is the logic in finding hate and anger, within an issue that is clearly, unclear?


Why do you characterize my dislike for Bush's actions as hatred?   My dislike for his actions are based on how I interpret facts, not simply an unfounded and irrational emotion hurled at someone.

I listen to Generals who say we have made the wrong choices.  I read books on guerrilla warfare, many decades old, which show what we should be doing, and list what we are doing as what, as a guerrilla, you hope your enemy does.  I read newstories outside of the mainstream US press.  I interpret that to show that Bush is at least incompetent if not treasonous.  That isn't hate, that is cold hard logic.  You may, and I assume you do, not agree with that logic but you can see how I came up with the opinion I have. 

So why is my opinion hate?  Did you characterize Republican attacks on Clinton as logic or hate?

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RE: The Insanity of Bush Hatred - 11/20/2007 11:39:10 PM   
luckydog1


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Status: offline 		Why would you think she was talking about you simplymicheal?

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RE: The Insanity of Bush Hatred - 11/21/2007 4:56:23 AM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

I suppose that if the topic is changing over to left-wing conspiracy theories, I'll bow out now and let you two have at it...

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

The war with Iraq may not be entirely due to oil, but oil does play a part of it. Not just oil reserves but also the petrodollar. Iraq had started to trade in Euro`s which, if all other oil producers did the same, would have an adverse effect on the Dollar and the American economy.

http://socrates.berkeley.edu/~pdscott/iraq.html



How is having an opinion on something a " left wing conspiracy theory" ?  For The record, i am more right wing than left. If oil plays no part in Americas foreign policy, why does your president mention it in the link i provided ?

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RE: The Insanity of Bush Hatred - 11/21/2007 4:56:58 AM   
mnottertail


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Status: offline 		His speech was synecdoche, why do all the neo-cons want to lie and pretend it is not?

Ron

< Message edited by mnottertail -- 11/21/2007 5:00:15 AM >

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RE: The Insanity of Bush Hatred - 11/21/2007 5:47:12 AM   
Sinergy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MasDom

However Bush did have his functional moments.



Name 5.

quote:



But like Vietnam it had its honest purpose..



I will bite, what purpose did we have in Vietnam that qualifies as "honest?"

Sinergy

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