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RE: Rules - 11/16/2007 6:59:28 AM   
subsfaith


Posts: 297
Joined: 11/21/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: stateira

Master and I have had differing opinions on something.  I have asked him about it but he doesn't have an answer for me other than "because I said so"  which isn't always helpful to a slave who is still learning.  I was wondering if somebody could help me. 
<snip>
How is all that diminished and disgraced by my writing "keep the house clean" and "wear your collar"?  I really do want to understand. 



Sometimes it is not for us ot question the whys and wheres, it is jsut our job to comply.  Reasons may not always be given, and yes, this doesn't help with understanding, but does one actually need to understand to complete a task?

In many situation in life there will be a lack of understanding.  In a job for instance, there may be times when the boss says do something and the reason may not be evident, not all staff are privvy to management decision, but nevertheless that task needs to be completed. 

I can understand, in part, where both you and your Master are coming from.  I personally achieve more if I understand a motivation behind a task, perhaps this is something you also benefits from.  And from your Master's perspective, if he was giving you rules and expected you to take them down verbatim, then you should take them down verbatim.  Perhaps he didn't make this clear, or you misunderstood, who knows.

quote:

ORIGINAL: stateira
I wrote down "keep the house clean" because memorizing all of that just really isn't realistic. 


Does it matter if it is realistic?  One could say that a woman doing everything her man tells her to is unrealisitic by common standards, but there are plenty on this network that do.  So if this is something he wants you to do then you should be doing it, that my friend is called submission, anything else is taking the piss.

Good luck in your journey,
Faith

:: smiles ::

(in reply to stateira)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: Rules - 11/16/2007 7:00:51 AM   
goldentriangle


Posts: 7
Joined: 10/19/2007
Status: offline 		Your Master has taken the time and effort to devise specific and detailed rules for you. By shortening them to 'reminders' for yourself you've effectively lessened their importance which could very well be construed as disrespectful and belittling. My former Master gave me an initial list of 6 very detailed rules (which were expanded to 12 over the course of our relationship and were all agreed between us before inclusion) and I was not only required to memorise them but to both carry a copy with me at all times and have them framed on my bedroom wall so they were the first thing I saw every morning. If I broke one I was required to copy it out long-hand a minimum of 50 times - very effective!

(in reply to hardbodysub)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: Rules - 11/16/2007 7:31:58 AM   
neph


Posts: 32
Joined: 4/4/2006
Status: offline 		I'm guessing he put effort into coming up with a particular phrasing that he liked, and maybe that he felt you would like.  Maybe his feelings were hurt by what he thought was you diminishing the effort.

He wrote a story, you read the cliff's notes :)

You could put the effort in to memorize the whole thing, even if you only remember it for a couple days, and recite it back to him.  After that, stick to your notes.


< Message edited by neph -- 11/16/2007 7:34:47 AM >

(in reply to goldentriangle)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: Rules - 11/16/2007 7:50:28 AM   
littlebitxxx


Posts: 732
Status: offline 		IMOO, the way I would handle the situation:  Keep Master's list on the fridge or in a prominent spot to refer to when I need to, to get the details right.  Ask to make cue cards to keep on my person for when I'm not in front of the list.  It wouldn't take long before I'd be able to glance at the cue card and have the entire paragraph pop up into my mind.

_____________________________

There is no such thing as can't unless it is followed by yet

It is the meaningless little acts that become meaningful in the doing.

The people that mind don't matter and the people that matter don't mind.

(in reply to subsfaith)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: Rules - 11/16/2007 8:16:14 AM   
Celeste43


Posts: 3066
Joined: 2/4/2006
From: NYS
Status: offline 		If he's going to overload you with a whole list of rules at once, he deserves what he gets. Honestly, one rule at a time, and don't add the second until you have internalized the first including nuances. See you're focusing on the most important part of the rule because he's given you too much to internalize at one time. Once you do the collar thing, wearing and cleaning, automatically in the same sense you brush and floss, then he should add a new one.




(in reply to hardbodysub)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: Rules - 11/16/2007 8:21:07 AM   
topcat


Posts: 1675
Joined: 1/31/2004
From: Tidewater, VA
Status: offline
quote:

his rule said "you are primarily responsible for most of the housework.  You are to keep the home a clean, pleasant place for me.  You are expected to minimize clutter and keep junk from accumulating around the home.  you will keep the floor and carpets clean.  you will be responsible for dusting.  you are responsible for cleaning the bathroom.  kitchen and laundry duties are to be shared as I see fit." 

I wrote down "keep the house clean" because memorizing all of that just really isn't realistic.


It isn't realistic? Why not? it's eight short sentences- not War and Peace. If you expect a relationship to last, you might expect to have to do a bit of learning, which might well include rote memoriztaion. I doubt he would have objected if you broke it down to bullet points, or transcribed it into some easier format for you to work with.

If you don't respect the man and the effort he's putting in, you really should get out.

_____________________________

-there is no remission without blood-

(in reply to stateira)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: Rules - 11/16/2007 8:33:56 AM   
SingleRarity


Posts: 320
Joined: 9/13/2006
Status: offline 		When Daddy and I started our relationship I was so eager for rules.  I wanted him to stamp me as his right away, but he felt differently.  Our rules developed over time, naturally.  I have some long rules too, but none of them are arbitrary, instead, even the long ones, are easy to remember because they developed out on natural interaction within our D/S relationship.

(in reply to topcat)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: Rules - 11/16/2007 8:41:11 AM   
toservez


Posts: 1733
Joined: 9/7/2006
From: All over now in Minnesota
Status: offline 		This has been a real interesting thread to read. I went back and forth in every post I read from thinking about a Master who was more into himself then the actual living of life then would think I think it is nice he had detail and reasons for the rules he gave.

I tend to believe the possibility there is more issues then the rules going on here. Maybe there is on the dominant’s end a little too being full of himself or confusing what should be taken seriously and what should be not and a submissive struggling to let go of judgment and irrelevant categorizing of right and wrongs on actions that there is no need of.

To me if he wants you to memorize them how he wrote them then it is your duty to do that even if it is a struggle. If he really only cares that you live up to these rules and somehow confuses your attempt to do that as some slight against him then that is his issue.


_____________________________

I am sorry I do not fit Webster's defintion of a slave but thankfully my Master is not Webster.

"Anything that contradicts experience and logic should be abandoned." - H.H. The 14th Dalai Lama

(in reply to stateira)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: Rules - 11/16/2007 11:18:29 AM   
grlneedstolearn


Posts: 728
Joined: 1/29/2007
Status: offline 		i was lucky when i sat down with my Dom that we both discussed concise one line rules. In part because if he would have given me a paragraph on 1 rule, i would have also taken the main point out of it like you did. i just like and mostly enjoy my 1 line rules, even if there are more than 12 to remember.

(in reply to stateira)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Rules - 11/16/2007 11:29:48 AM   
Jasmyn


Posts: 1234
Joined: 2/6/2004
From: New Zealand
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: stateira

Master and I have had differing opinions on something.  I have asked him about it but he doesn't have an answer for me other than "because I said so"  which isn't always helpful to a slave who is still learning.  I was wondering if somebody could help me. 

Master and I sat down not too long ago to discuss setting rules for me.  I realize some people think that rules for a grown woman is stupid...please feel free to post that opinion here but do realize it's not necessary to say so.  Anyway, so these rules he made for me were about a paragraph each.  I was always under the impression that rules should be easy to remember, and I was never talented at memorizing a whole lot, especially not 12 different paragraphs for rules.  So I sat down and once we had agreed on them, I took notes.  I basically wrote down the main point of the rule so that I could just glance at the list and know them.  He got so mad about this and says that it was making a mockery of his rules and that I was only playing a game and I was being difficult and very unsubmissive.  I didn't understand this, because all I was trying to do was make them easier for me to understand so I could follow them better.  I will give an example:

his rule said "you are primarily responsible for most of the housework.  You are to keep the home a clean, pleasant place for me.  You are expected to minimize clutter and keep junk from accumulating around the home.  you will keep the floor and carpets clean.  you will be responsible for dusting.  you are responsible for cleaning the bathroom.  kitchen and laundry duties are to be shared as I see fit." 

I wrote down "keep the house clean" because memorizing all of that just really isn't realistic. 

Another one said "Girl's collar symbolizes her relationship with me and her status as mine.  She should see to care for it with that in mind by wearing it proudly and maintaining it when necessary."

I wrote down "wear your collar."

How is all that diminished and disgraced by my writing "keep the house clean" and "wear your collar"?  I really do want to understand. 



When I ask my sub why he wears his collar ... I don't want to hear "because you tell me to" ... I want to hear the exact phrasing he was given when it was first placed about his throat ...

I'd be pissed at you too ... but then again ... I could equally be pissed at your Master ... if he is serious about having rules ... he should have them written down already for you ..or at the very least ...TOLD you to dictate on paper word for word each rule as you were discussing them

_____________________________

quote:

"To learn the art of submission a slave must first give up the desires that drew him to submission in the first place." Mistress Jasmyn Jan 2005.


Visit My Website


(in reply to stateira)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: Rules - 11/16/2007 12:08:00 PM   
OmegaG


Posts: 1474
Joined: 10/23/2007
Status: offline 		I'm not in your situation (yet-- fingers crossed).  But I think that I would appreciate that he took the time to detail the best ways to make him happy and why.  I'd probably write down everything as he said it for referrence and then maybe make a short list that I could run through my mind if the detailed list wouldn't stick.

(in reply to stateira)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Rules - 11/16/2007 12:51:36 PM   
amiciaN


Posts: 228
Joined: 1/20/2007
Status: offline 		Hello stateira--

I was discussing this thread today with my Master NChaka and I realized I had made a grievous assumption in my first post, based on my own relationship and it makes my post sound much more stern that I intended.  (Really, I'm not an evil witch, despite my UM's contentions to the contrary.) I'll try to use a little humor this time. 

I am not required to recite any rule I have been given word for word.  I am required to be able to tell my Master what my rules are, stating in my own words what His standards are for obeying the rule and/or the intent behind it.  In that way, my Master knows that I truly understand the rule; it has become a part of me.

Using the "keep the house clean" rule again, I would be expected to list each thing that was specifically mentioned but my wording could be different and that would be ok.  Something else I would have been expected to understand, if I had be given the exact rule you were, is that since this Dominant dislikes clutter, displaying the 462 tacky little statues in my (ficticious) elephant bric-a-brac collection on top of the bookcase would probably not be a good idea.    Let's not forget that I am to do the dusting too, so the 769 Nascar models on the mantle (and entertainment center, and coffee table, etc.) had better shine.  And for the sake of all that's sacred or profane, don't mention the apparent contradiction until and unless your really, really, really sure it won't piss him off!  ...(bears repeating!)  The bathroom was also specifically mentioned, so no toothpaste globs left in the sink until later and "no clutter" means no stockings drying over the shower curtain rod.  (Twue subs/slaves don't even own any pantyhose, of course.   )

I guess the point I've been trying to make all along is that isn't about making the house look like June Cleaver's, it's about making it look like your Master wants it to look. The rule about wearing his collar isn't about having something around your neck.  It's about the symbolism of what that really means.  Telling you to care for it properly is symbolic of taking care of the relationship properly.

One more point and then I'll shut up... promise. 

Rules are a way to express boundaries.  Sure, boundaries can serve to keep the things we want in, but they also serve to keep the things we don't want out.  A young family puts up a chain-link fence to keep thier toddler in the yard and the old woman next door extends the fence to the other 3 sides to keep the trespassing neighborhood children out and to stop using her yard as a damned shortcut.  Both have the advantage of not having stray dogs poop in thier yard. 

Whether you are expected to recite each rule word for word or not, may you learn to see your Master's rules not as things intended to oppress you, but as proof that you and the relationship are things that your Master values enough to protect.

....And may no stray dogs ever poop in your yard. 


_____________________________

NChaka's amicia

I have never been lifted so high as when I kneel at His feet.

(in reply to Jasmyn)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Rules - 11/16/2007 2:36:05 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: topcat
It isn't realistic? Why not? it's eight short sentences- not War and Peace. If you expect a relationship to last, you might expect to have to do a bit of learning, which might well include rote memoriztaion. I doubt he would have objected if you broke it down to bullet points, or transcribed it into some easier format for you to work with.

If you don't respect the man and the effort he's putting in, you really should get out.

Topcat yayayayayayay!

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to topcat)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: Rules - 11/16/2007 3:18:41 PM   
Rushemery


Posts: 310
Joined: 9/10/2007
Status: offline 		 I agree with Archer

everyone has a different definition of clean and the one you posted was pretty basic and not very structured and too open to interpretation in my opinion. Sometimes people bennifit from being shown how things should be done others do a good job being left alone. if I had to write down rules they would be very detailed but I wouldnt have an issue with someone making a list that was easier for them to remember as long as nothing was forgotten while doing the job. with evey quality project or job there is someone who takes care of the details without them the job falls apart or isnt a a job well done

(in reply to hardbodysub)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Rules - 11/16/2007 3:25:18 PM   
littlesarbonn


Posts: 1710
Joined: 12/3/2005
From: Stockton, California
Status: offline 		I once served a woman with a wonderful sense of humor who knew I loved her setting rules for me, so out of the blue, she orchestrated this HUGE set of rules for me that I was to follow. As the days went on, it started to become obvious that she couldn't remember half the rules and was constantly punishing me for what she "thought" was one of the rules, usually brought up as "wasn't there a rule that said...(insert something bizarre)" and then punish me for not following that rule. I know it sounds actually negative, but it was really funny and it was more in her range of sense of humor that she was just making up stuff on the spot and having fun with it. She owned me at the time, and I was her live-in slave, so she pretty much could make up any rule and it was law, but this turned into about three months of being dominated by the rules of Calvin Ball (from Calvin & Hobbes) which she actually brought up in conversation while cracking up one day.

_____________________________

<---- FYI, this picture looks JUST like me


http://www.littlesarbonn.com/Stickman/Stickman.htm
The Adventures of Stickman and the Unemployed Lego Spaceman

(in reply to stateira)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: Rules - 11/16/2007 3:27:40 PM   
worththeeffort


Posts: 105
Joined: 6/4/2007
Status: offline 		i guess my opinion here kinda falls somewhere in the midst of everyone else who's posted

on one hand, i feel your pain in the inability to memorize category, so i can see why you'd want notes.
on the other hand, he took the time to outline his wants with more detail, so they could be followed as he wishes.
but, he didn't give exact specifics (along the lines of Archer's post) so it's kind of a moot point.
if he does provide detailed specifications, he should allow you to keep a copy of them, so you can be sure to adhere to them
i think notes are a great way to give yourself a mental checklist of what needs to be done, and you can refer to his more detailed list as needed.

Personally, i think he's being a little irrational about it. Again, when in doubt, talk it out. Explain why you did what you did the way you did. Ask him why he was upset by what you did (and "cuz i didn't like it" is not an explanation IMO). Just my thoughts.

~kitty


(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Rules - 11/16/2007 3:43:50 PM   
RCdc


Posts: 8674
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

quote:

ORIGINAL: topcat
It isn't realistic? Why not? it's eight short sentences- not War and Peace. If you expect a relationship to last, you might expect to have to do a bit of learning, which might well include rote memoriztaion. I doubt he would have objected if you broke it down to bullet points, or transcribed it into some easier format for you to work with.

If you don't respect the man and the effort he's putting in, you really should get out.

Topcat yayayayayayay!


Bloody QTF - and then some.
 
I'd say more, but my mood would be invidious to the few.
the.dark.

_____________________________
RC&dc


love isnt gazing into each others eyes - it's looking forward in the same direction

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: Rules - 11/16/2007 8:19:31 PM   
MRandme


Posts: 661
Joined: 9/24/2007
Status: offline 		I have asked him about it but he doesn't have an answer for me other than "because I said so"  which isn't always helpful to a slave who is still learning.

This was the part i had trouble with. "Because I said so." Perfectly valid. He is your Master, the one you have said you'd obey. you say you are still learning, that's good. But Lesson One is 'You don't argue with the One who holds the paddle/cane/slipper.' The whole idea is to do things that please Him, yes? To serve Him and make Him happy. He doesn't need a reason beyond "That's how I want it".  (which is not to say you should not ask for clarification if you need it).

If this sounds harsh, i am sorry. It isn't meant to be. i guess because it was made clear to me starting out that sometimes my Master would give me orders that would make no sense to me. They might be tests to see if i will obey, they might be for training of some sort, they might be just because he felt like having me do it -- in other words, because he says so -- or because they are part of longer ranging plans that i am not privy to.

Now, you are hurt and confused because you are trying your hardest and perhaps trying so hard that you are making things more difficult than they need to be. i've done this myself. :-)  It could be something we all do as newbies, who knows. i'm still learning myself, making mistakes as i go.

It is how we grow.

g

_____________________________

And thus i conclude with a wish you go well,
Sweet be your dreams, may your happiness swell,
I'll leave you here, for my journey begins
i've gone to be with Him again...

(in reply to hardbodysub)
Profile   Post #: 38
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