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RE: Saudi rape victim gets 200 lashes.... - 11/22/2007 4:59:28 PM   
BlackKnight


Posts: 767
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		It's a well documented factoid.  That is if you beleive the crap the media pushes down our throughts,
The only way to Know is to go there yourself.

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Profile   Post #: 101
RE: Saudi rape victim gets 200 lashes.... - 11/22/2007 5:03:16 PM   
LotusSong


Posts: 6334
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From: Domme Emeritus
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BlackKnight

It's a well documented factoid.  That is if you beleive the crap the media pushes down our throughts,
The only way to Know is to go there yourself.


This is a very brave comment you made.  Can you prove it's a factoid?

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I'm not inflatable.


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Profile   Post #: 102
RE: Saudi rape victim gets 200 lashes.... - 11/22/2007 5:12:01 PM   
Sinergy


Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BlackKnight

It's a well documented factoid. 



Granted.  The majority of muslims living in Indonesia and Malaysia is a well-documented factoid.

quote:



That is if you beleive the crap the media pushes down our throughts,



When I studied the far east in Asia I became well versed in the religious populations of the region.

quote:



The only way to Know is to go there yourself.



If I travel to Indonesia I will learn that the majority of Muslims live there?

Uh, ok, sure.

Sinergy


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Profile   Post #: 103
RE: Saudi rape victim gets 200 lashes.... - 11/22/2007 5:21:36 PM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx
cyberdude:
Why is it OK for the U.S. to demand a change in the way the government of Afghanistan and Iraq operate but not Saudi Arabia?
Nothing complex about it.  We went there to fuck their women and take their dope. 
Who is next on the list...Venezuela, Iran, Cuba???
thompson



Both ven and iran.

Iran has wmd's keeping in mind the definition of a wmd.   wmd = oil

and ven has that dictator that the people of ven surrounded the capitol and put back into office forcing the failure of the cia coup! 

So we will hear more and more rumbling as they paint story after story to convince us that we need to mop them all up.

oh for cuba?  we havent had a cigar smoking president yet. 





< Message edited by Real0ne -- 11/22/2007 5:22:32 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 104
RE: Saudi rape victim gets 200 lashes.... - 11/22/2007 5:28:28 PM   
Level


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Joined: 3/3/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

I think the average woman in the Islamic world is treated far worse than the average woman in the Christian one.



Presumably you can back that up with some sort of statistical or factual basis?

Sinergy

p.s.  little hint for you, I am sure you are aware that the vast majority of Islamic women live in Indonesia and are not subject to nor constrained by Sharia law.



Neither one of us can back up what we said with statistics.
 
However, it isn't correct that "the vast majority of Islamic women live in Indonesia";  Indonesia is the nation with the largest Islamic population, but does  not have more Muslims than all the other Islamic nations combined. And Sharia exists in part of Indonesia:

quote:

The governor of the province, Abdullah Puteh, said the court would implement Islamic law "in a moderate way and gradually".  

He said the province did not want to infringe human rights or gender issues with the arrival of Sharia, which non-Muslims sometimes associate with hardline and controversial punishments.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/2816785.stm

That was 2004, perhaps something was repealed since then, but I'm not aware of it.

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Profile   Post #: 105
RE: Saudi rape victim gets 200 lashes.... - 11/22/2007 6:34:24 PM   
Sinergy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

Neither one of us can back up what we said with statistics.



Gotcha.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_Indonesia

It is not overly difficult to get statistics to back up one's opinions.  What I personally find is that frequently when I research a subject I am forced to change my mind about it. 

Go with what works for you, however.

One billion people live in Indonesia.  The vast majority (88%) of those one billion people are Muslim.  Some percentage approaching 50% are female.

Even if there is a numerically superior number of Muslims in the Middle East, you stated that you lack a statistical basis for the claim that they are, as a whole, mistreated by virtue of being women.

quote:



but does  not have more Muslims than all the other Islamic nations combined. And Sharia exists in part of Indonesia:
 

 
The problem I have with your argument and that which I previously quoted is that there is the unproven assumption that Shari'a law and Muslims are more anti-women than Christians.  I am not stating that Muslims are particulary nice to women, any more than I am stating that Christians are particularly nice to women.
 
It is similar to what is reported on spousal abuse statistics in the United States.  Since reported statistics of spousal abuse are on the rise over the past 60 years, does this mean that more women are being abused by their spouses?  
Does it mean that more women are reporting being abused by their spouses, and more reporting agencies are taking their claims seriously?
 
My UM is studying gender and women's issues at UC Berkeley with emphasis on the middle east.  If you are really interested, I will ask her for a bibliography of source materials for you.  I dont think she is as radical as I am, but I am working the issue.
 
Sinergy



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Profile   Post #: 106
RE: Saudi rape victim gets 200 lashes.... - 11/22/2007 6:56:00 PM   
Level


Posts: 25145
Joined: 3/3/2006
Status: offline 		One billion people don't live in Indonesia, about 234 million do. Working off memory, I think there are around 1 billion muslims total in the world, might have that wrong, though.

quote:

The problem I have with your argument and that which I previously quoted is that there is the unproven assumption that Shari'a law and Muslims are more anti-women than Christians.  I am not stating that Muslims are particulary nice to women, any more than I am stating that Christians are particularly nice to women.
 
That assumption is primarily what I was meaning when I said neither of us could "prove" that, one way or the other. Too many people, too many factors.
 
 
quote:

It is similar to what is reported on spousal abuse statistics in the United States.  Since reported statistics of spousal abuse are on the rise over the past 60 years, does this mean that more women are being abused by their spouses?  
Does it mean that more women are reporting being abused by their spouses, and more reporting agencies are taking their claims seriously?

 
It means there are too many abusive cretins in the world, IMO. I think you and I would agree on that one.




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Let go it's harder holding on
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Profile   Post #: 107
RE: Saudi rape victim gets 200 lashes.... - 11/22/2007 6:59:04 PM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline 		http://www.zpub.com/un/pope/relig.html



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Profile   Post #: 108
RE: Saudi rape victim gets 200 lashes.... - 11/22/2007 7:06:21 PM   
Sinergy


Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
Status: offline 		 
You are correct about the number of Muslims in Indonesia, it would be 88% of 234 million.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_by_country

I stand corrected.

What I found shocking is that the article adds up to 6 billion Muslims worldwide.

The Middle East has 252 million Muslims, divided by Shi'a and Sunni Muslims.

East Asia has 456 million Muslims, the vast majority are Sunni.

Sinergy

p.s.  On a related note, several Christian cites give 2 billion or so as the maximum number of Christians worldwide.


_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


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Profile   Post #: 109
RE: Saudi rape victim gets 200 lashes.... - 11/22/2007 7:10:25 PM   
cyberdude611


Posts: 2596
Joined: 5/7/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

I think we are dealing with some very complex ethical problems...

Obviously everyone is outraged when we hear about a story like this. But really what right do we have to demand they change their domestic policies? After all this isn't new. This type of thing has been going on in Saudi Arabia and other parts of the mid-east for hundreds of years.
Like it or not the people in that society needs to change on their own. You cant force them to change.

Unfortunately there is not going to be a feminist movement in that culture for awhile. A number of things have to happen before that's even possible.

cyberdude:
Why is it OK for the U.S. to demand a change in the way the government of Afghanistan and Iraq operate but not Saudi Arabia?
Nothing complex about it.  We went there to fuck their women and take their dope. 
Who is next on the list...Venezuela, Iran, Cuba???
thompson


Well the US gave an ultimatum to the Taliban government. Had they handed over Osama and destroyed the terror camps, there would be no war. But they refused and wanted war. Plus that's a legit war. They were harboring a terrorist organization that committed an attack on our soil.

Cuba made the wrong decision to make friends with the Soviets and they harbored Soviet ICBMs and that was a direct threat to our population. We had every right to put sanctions on that country to protect ourselves. (whether they still should have sanctions now is debatable. But they brought it on themselves).
Venezuela is a dictatorship in the making. And their president is an obnoxious bafoon that the world is actually starting to get sick of. Did you hear the king of Spain tell him to "shut up."

Iran is developing weapons of mass destruction and a government who seems to have no problem wanting to develop them for offensive purposes.

So my point was that we dont have much right to say how a nation conducts itself within its country on cultural issue like what going on in Saudi Arabia. But if it effects our security or puts our population at risk, then we do have a right to say something.

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Profile   Post #: 110
RE: Saudi rape victim gets 200 lashes.... - 11/22/2007 7:20:39 PM   
Level


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Joined: 3/3/2006
Status: offline
quote:

http://www.zpub.com/un/pope/relig.html


Thank you for the link, fb.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy


You are correct about the number of Muslims in Indonesia, it would be 88% of 234 million.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_by_country

I stand corrected.

What I found shocking is that the article adds up to 6 billion Muslims worldwide.

The Middle East has 252 million Muslims, divided by Shi'a and Sunni Muslims.

East Asia has 456 million Muslims, the vast majority are Sunni.

Sinergy

p.s.  On a related note, several Christian cites give 2 billion or so as the maximum number of Christians worldwide.



That'd come up to 600 million, but looking at fb's link, the muslim totals are around the 1 billion mark, world-wide, and I think Islam is growing faster than Christianity.
 
And just to say, I never meant to imply all muslims treat women poorly, I know that isn't true. I hate abuse and bullying from anyone.

_____________________________

Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

~~ Stone Temple Pilots

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Profile   Post #: 111
RE: Saudi rape victim gets 200 lashes.... - 11/22/2007 8:18:15 PM   
Lordandmaster


Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline 		Yes, Bull, that's exactly the hypocrisy that people are talking about.  If Saudi "support" were NOT important to us, we wouldn't hesitate to preach to them.  One of the nauseating things we were told after it had become clear that Saddam Hussein had no weapons of mass destruction was that we invaded in order to improve the social standing of women in Iraq.  Really?  The White House reaction to this case shows that THAT was pure bullshit.

quote:

ORIGINAL: xBullx

At this time Saudi support is more important that telloing them their business.

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Profile   Post #: 112
RE: Saudi rape victim gets 200 lashes.... - 11/23/2007 6:08:42 AM   
bryhtwulf


Posts: 28
Joined: 11/18/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy

quote:

ORIGINAL: bryhtwulf





Well there you go, so if the russia took over new jersey and gave it to the krishnas and then armed them with nukes thats all fine and ok...  
Sorry, but, yeah. We should have won the war. Russia just must have wanted it more. I see it in black and white. the arabs have no real right to complain. They could have crushed the Jews in 1948, but couldn't. So either Jews are the greatest warriors ever, or Arabs are just terrible soldiers.


There is an incredible resource available to learn about these things before you spew whatever you have heard and expect people tp recieve it as fact.....The jews were far from out gunned, which included superior weaponry and training....God Bless the US of A!!!

Sorry to go this far back, but you can't be serious. In 1948? The modern nation is Israel was a day old. Superior firepower? Look up czech mausers, Skoda-werks 105mm howitzers, and US 37mm anti-tank guns. Trained by USA? You are telling me that farmers, teenagers, women, and holocaust survivors were trained in this country in some kind of training camps? Egypt was at the time one of the most modern countries in the middle east when it came to the military. Jordan and Iraq had a large surplus of German equipment. Three countries attacked Israel, and couldn't win. Compare this to if rhode island were attacked by New York, Pennsylvania, and Virginia.

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Profile   Post #: 113
RE: Saudi rape victim gets 200 lashes.... - 11/23/2007 6:26:20 AM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

I think we are dealing with some very complex ethical problems...

Obviously everyone is outraged when we hear about a story like this. But really what right do we have to demand they change their domestic policies? After all this isn't new. This type of thing has been going on in Saudi Arabia and other parts of the mid-east for hundreds of years.
Like it or not the people in that society needs to change on their own. You cant force them to change.

Unfortunately there is not going to be a feminist movement in that culture for awhile. A number of things have to happen before that's even possible.

cyberdude:
Why is it OK for the U.S. to demand a change in the way the government of Afghanistan and Iraq operate but not Saudi Arabia?
Nothing complex about it.  We went there to fuck their women and take their dope. 
Who is next on the list...Venezuela, Iran, Cuba???
thompson


Well the US gave an ultimatum to the Taliban government. Had they handed over Osama and destroyed the terror camps, there would be no war. But they refused and wanted war. Plus that's a legit war. They were harboring a terrorist organization that committed an attack on our soil.
It is pretty well documented that the 9/11 attacks were by Saudi citizens and not Afghan citizens.  You seem to be saying that any country who will not extradite to the U.S. should be invaded.

Cuba made the wrong decision to make friends with the Soviets and they harbored Soviet ICBMs and that was a direct threat to our population. We had every right to put sanctions on that country to protect ourselves. (whether they still should have sanctions now is debatable. But they brought it on themselves).
Are you suggesting that the U.S. can dictate to all nations who they may be friends with?
You may not be aware that Russia removed the missiles from Cuba in return for the U.S. removing our missiles from Turkey.  It is called "Quid pro Quo"


Venezuela is a dictatorship in the making. And their president is an obnoxious bafoon that the world is actually starting to get sick of. Did you hear the king of Spain tell him to "shut up."
Is the opinion of a king any more important than the opinion of "joe shit the rag man"?  If so then our revolutionary war was for nothing.

Iran is developing weapons of mass destruction and a government who seems to have no problem wanting to develop them for offensive purposes.
Isn't that the same "boogie man" that bush&co trotted out about Iraq.  It appears that you are more gullible than most.

So my point was that we dont have much right to say how a nation conducts itself within its country on cultural issue like what going on in Saudi Arabia. But if it effects our security or puts our population at risk, then we do have a right to say something.
Every country,every person has a right to say what they think.  It is when you start invading countries that your "right" is wrong.

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Profile   Post #: 114
RE: Saudi rape victim gets 200 lashes.... - 11/23/2007 9:22:03 AM   
Sanity


Posts: 22039
Joined: 6/14/2006
From: Nampa, Idaho USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

One of the nauseating things we were told after it had become clear that Saddam Hussein had no weapons of mass destruction was that we invaded in order to improve the social standing of women in Iraq. 

You just made that up.

Who claimed that we invaded Iraq to "improve the social standing of women in Iraq"?

No one did. Ever.

Unless you're thinking of the rape rooms, where Saddam employed professional rapists to viciously, horribly rape girls and women before their captive families. Only when the religious traditions of these families are taken into account can the true depravity of what happened in those rape rooms be understood...

But that's totally different then what you're demanding, which is to try to change Islam itself in Saudi Arabia simply because of your political grudge

< Message edited by Sanity -- 11/23/2007 9:24:42 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 115
RE: Saudi rape victim gets 200 lashes.... - 11/23/2007 1:04:37 PM   
NorthernGent


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Joined: 7/10/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

Who claimed that we invaded Iraq to "improve the social standing of women in Iraq"?



Isn't this whole democracy and freedom idea wrapped in improving the lot of the natives?.......or are you excluding women from your charity? 

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Profile   Post #: 116
RE: Saudi rape victim gets 200 lashes.... - 11/23/2007 2:52:42 PM   
Sanity


Posts: 22039
Joined: 6/14/2006
From: Nampa, Idaho USA
Status: offline 		It is my understanding that women were treated with respect and near equality in Iraq, better than many other predominantly Muslim countries - except for the rape rooms, and genocide, and other acts of mass murder and torture, and the ones kidnapped for, was it Uday or Qusay who used government agents to kidnap women off the street for use in his private dungeons. Occasionally his captive women were fed to his dogs or lions for their disobedience and for entertainment, too.

But no, it was never stated that a specific reason for freeing the Iraqi people was to free the Iraqi women of Shariah law. Not at all. 

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Profile   Post #: 117
RE: Saudi rape victim gets 200 lashes.... - 11/23/2007 8:33:00 PM   
Lordandmaster


Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline 		I'll find a good example for ya.  I didn't make it up.

Just goes to show that you weren't paying much attention when all the bullshit came out about why we got into this war in the first place.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

One of the nauseating things we were told after it had become clear that Saddam Hussein had no weapons of mass destruction was that we invaded in order to improve the social standing of women in Iraq. 

You just made that up.

Who claimed that we invaded Iraq to "improve the social standing of women in Iraq"?

No one did. Ever.

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Profile   Post #: 118
RE: Saudi rape victim gets 200 lashes.... - 11/23/2007 9:00:58 PM   
Lordandmaster


Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline 		Just read this:

http://www.bridgew.edu/SoAS/jiws/Nov06/Jabbra.pdf

The President has been feeding us this bullshit about improving women's rights in the Middle East since the very beginning of the war:

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2003/11/20031106-2.html

And here's one of his brown-nosing "commentators," from the same year:

http://www.str.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=5695

Oh, and what the HELL is this?

quote:

But that's totally different then what you're demanding, which is to try to change Islam itself in Saudi Arabia simply because of your political grudge


That's hardly what I'm demanding.  If that's how you read, it's pointless to talk to you.

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Profile   Post #: 119
RE: Saudi rape victim gets 200 lashes.... - 11/23/2007 9:39:41 PM   
Sanity


Posts: 22039
Joined: 6/14/2006
From: Nampa, Idaho USA
Status: offline 		I don't see anything in your links providing evidence of your claim that a stated reason for going into Iraq was to improve the standing of women there.

And I did misread earlier concerning your wanting Bush to invade Saudi Arabia, you're right about that. I have a lot going on. Right now, BSU is playing a close game against Hawaii on ESPN, and I'm reading and writing fast - so sue me

But if your links prove your claim why not post an excerpt. No, "commentators" don't qualify, neither do obscure long-winded college dissertations. You really need something from the government, or from someone speaking for the administration, but I can see why you're having so much difficulty finding something official like that - you made it up, like I said.

And so you found something generically talking about the treatment of women in the Middle East... did you miss reading the title of this thread?

< Message edited by Sanity -- 11/23/2007 9:42:42 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 120
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