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RE: assertive vs submissive - 11/21/2007 10:29:10 AM   
ownedgirlie


Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline 		Assertive in life?  Definitely.

Assertive toward him?  Depends.

I was just having a conversation with someone about this, actually.  I can make suggestions to my Master, providing him with enough information for him to consider the suggestion and decide on it himself.  I can not boldly go to him and say "You should....(insert anything here)." 

Here's a silly example.  He's diabetic.  I recently heard him saying that he loves to snack on peanut butter, and Skippy is his preferred brand.  I gasped and said "Oh no, please not Skippy!!" and he laughed and kind of shrugged it off.

Seriously - Skippy has added sugar, and he doesn't need that in his diet right now.  But I can not tell him what to eat.  I can, however, provide him with information to make better choices.  So I sent him an email with all the nutritional facts and ingredients of Skippy, compared to that of my recommended brand (Adams), which had no added sugar or preservatives - just plain old peanuts and a smidgeon of salt.  I asked him if he would please consider trying my recommended brand.  He said he would.  So I brought him a jar of it.  He smiled and thanked me.  He tried it.  He liked it.  He'll be switching to it.

That was assertive, while still completely submissive. 

As his slave, it is my duty to provide him with information he can benefit from, but may not be aware of.  He will take it from there - either by asking for more info, or by accepting or rejecting my suggestion.  This is different, however, than telling him what to do, or even what I think he should do.


Edited to add:  As for things I would like to explore with him, I am always encouraged to ask, but to also explain why I want to explore it.  Then he decides if/when/how it is explored.

< Message edited by ownedgirlie -- 11/21/2007 10:30:34 AM >

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RE: assertive vs submissive - 11/21/2007 10:34:39 AM   
RRafe


Posts: 2060
Joined: 8/29/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie

Assertive in life?  Definitely.

Assertive toward him?  Depends.

I was just having a conversation with someone about this, actually.  I can make suggestions to my Master, providing him with enough information for him to consider the suggestion and decide on it himself.  I can not boldly go to him and say "You should....(insert anything here)." 

Here's a silly example.  He's diabetic.  I recently heard him saying that he loves to snack on peanut butter, and Skippy is his preferred brand.  I gasped and said "Oh no, please not Skippy!!" and he laughed and kind of shrugged it off.

Seriously - Skippy has added sugar, and he doesn't need that in his diet right now.  But I can not tell him what to eat.  I can, however, provide him with information to make better choices.  So I sent him an email with all the nutritional facts and ingredients of Skippy, compared to that of my recommended brand (Adams), which had no added sugar or preservatives - just plain old peanuts and a smidgeon of salt.  I asked him if he would please consider trying my recommended brand.  He said he would.  So I brought him a jar of it.  He smiled and thanked me.  He tried it.  He liked it.  He'll be switching to it.

That was assertive, while still completely submissive. 

As his slave, it is my duty to provide him with information he can benefit from, but may not be aware of.  He will take it from there - either by asking for more info, or by accepting or rejecting my suggestion.  This is different, however, than telling him what to do, or even what I think he should do.


Edited to add:  As for things I would like to explore with him, I am always encouraged to ask, but to also explain why I want to explore it.  Then he decides if/when/how it is explored.


I like pretty much this dynamic-point out things I may have missed, and I consider it. Which is doing me a service.

Tell me I should, I must?

Assertive isn't behaving as an asshole to me-and trying to get one's way in everything.

And then using manipulative techniques to try and force me, when I refuse.

That's what I tend to refer to as a "domissive".........hard limit.

< Message edited by RRafe -- 11/21/2007 10:37:02 AM >

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RE: assertive vs submissive - 11/21/2007 10:37:08 AM   
ownedgirlie


Posts: 9184
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quote:

ORIGINAL: RRafe
That's what I tend to refer to as a "domissive".........hard limit.


LOL cute term!

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RE: assertive vs submissive - 11/21/2007 10:40:06 AM   
RRafe


Posts: 2060
Joined: 8/29/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie

quote:

ORIGINAL: RRafe
That's what I tend to refer to as a "domissive".........hard limit.


LOL cute term!


I have my little ways of expression that get my point across.

As you wish.= I'm tired of arguing about it-we'll try again later.

Yeth, mithreth!!!!! = If you feel dominant today-go practice it in the mirror.

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RE: assertive vs submissive - 11/21/2007 10:53:32 AM   
Archer


Posts: 3207
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline 		Submission and service mean you have to look at the motivation behind the act.
Are you serving your own adgenda or are you serving them?
When you answer that question without rationalization and in total honesty then you know if you are still acting in service.
Submission though goes a bit beyond service, submission means you have chosen their will over your own.
So assertive on a matter they have not expressed their will over would not negate submission.
However when you assert your will in conflict with their will, then you have left submissiveness even if you remain in service.

How you rank service vs submission when they conflict is a matter of personal taste and personal ethics.

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RE: assertive vs submissive - 11/21/2007 11:04:01 AM   
breatheasone


Posts: 4004
Joined: 7/14/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ghitaPVH

hmmmm....while I definantly thank you all for your answers...I think maybe I should expand my question.

I am specifically asking about being assertive towards your Top (Dom, Sir, Domme, Mistress, Master, Daddy, whatever)..while still being submissive. This is an ongoing conversation I have been having offline with some friends and I would like some extra input. I purposefully tried to stay vauge in my first post because I didnt want to direct answers too much, but I guess I didnt direct them enough...lol. Assertiveness within your relationship...thats the topic Id like your thoughts on. Are you? How are you? If you are a top is your submissive? How? Do you find assertiveness a good quality or one you want to repress in some way? Thanks.

ghita~

Yes it is possible to be assertive to ANYONE.  How am I assertive to my Master?....respectfully  Assertiveness is very healthy. I can't imagine why on earth I would want to repress it.
Excellent question btw...


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RE: assertive vs submissive - 11/21/2007 11:09:09 AM   
breatheasone


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Joined: 7/14/2007
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quote:

to me being completly assertive would be for me to be walking through a mall and see a pair of shoes I want and go buy them with no thought of asking him first. Or to grab him the instant he walks in the door and through myself into his arms and start ripping his clothes off...thats assertive to me...activley expressing and persuing ones own desires...maybe the reason Im having trouble finishing the conversation with the person who asked me the question is we have different definitions of assertive...


To me...no disrespect intended, and this is just how I personally have always defined the word assertive....Whats described in the above is in no way assertive, in my opinion that is....


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RE: assertive vs submissive - 11/21/2007 11:10:16 AM   
RRafe


Posts: 2060
Joined: 8/29/2007
Status: offline 		Most of the subs I have known, that were any good at it..........had this sort of attitude.

1. They were smart enough to look for a guy who had a foundational aspect involving ethics and expectations-that met thier needs. And were patient enough to see if he really practiced what he preached-if not-they moved on.

2. When he proved that he meant what he said-and that it more or less came naturally-without any internal conflict in him.....they got excited-and that lead to them wanting to be supportive.

Those are the basics.

Here are the common tear downs that trip up wannabe subs-

1.They cling to unrealistic expectations that are inculcated by really crappy online information.

2. They set boundaries from those same bad sources-ignorantly-then expect that anyone who questions that is *evil*.

3. They get off on power trips. It doesn't matter that you grant all of "the power"-if you are such a nuerotic asshole-that no one wants to be forced to deal with your irrational drama-over YOUR internal conflicts-that you inflict on yourself.



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RE: assertive vs submissive - 11/21/2007 11:14:23 AM   
thetammyjo


Posts: 6322
Joined: 9/8/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ghitaPVH

I am not sure how much information I can give you, mainly because this is part of a question that was asked to me in another venue and I was having trouble answering it myself! lol...so I cant really press anyone here to do any better than I did!

To me, assertive is not only speaking up and expressing ones own thoughts, desires, opinions, but actively pursuing those desires.



I still want my slaves to be assertive with your above clarification. You can actively pursue things, it's part of being self motivated and an adult but in Ds (at least in my house) you immediately stop once I've said "No" to do otherwise isn't being assertive but disobedient.

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Check out my website at http://www.thetammyjo.com Or www.tammyjoeckhart.com

And my LJ where I post fiction in progress if you "friend" me at http://thetammyjo.livejournal.com/

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RE: assertive vs submissive - 11/21/2007 11:33:31 AM   
amiciaN


Posts: 228
Joined: 1/20/2007
Status: offline 		Hello ghitaPVH--

This second post of yours tells me you are either confusing assertive with aggressive, or having trouble finding that fine line between them.  I suspect from the overall intelligence apparent in your posts it is the latter. 

Being assertive doesn't mean you have to be aggressive.  Using your example of tearing your Master's clothes off when he comes in the door, that is aggressive.  Giving him a sweet kiss and whispering in his ear that you *wish* you could rip his clothes off is assertive.  Just giving him the kiss without telling him you wish you could rip his clothes off is not being transparent, something many Dominants demand.  (I know not being transparent doesn't even enter into the equation for many of us, but is still needed to clearly show the differences).  In order to be transparent, you have to be assertive enough to actually tell him what is on your mind.  No matter how much it seems like our Masters are mind readers, they really aren't.

Learning to become assertive enough to voice my opinion, state my desires clearly and ask for what I want or need is something NChaka has insisted upon since the beginning.  I didn't do that in my marriage and it almost killed me.  It did suck almost every drop of joy and peace out of my life.  Developing my ability to be assertive is something NChaka continues to do, even as my submission to Him deepens.  It is especially apparent in my dealings with my ex, my UM's, my extended family and in my dealings with the world at large.  It is perfectly possible to be assertive without being aggressive or disrespectful and that is what NChaka expects of me.

It's become cliché, but it's still true... if there is a perfectly trained tabby on one man's leash and a perfectly trained tiger on another, what does that say about the men who hold each leash?  And which would you rather be?

(As always, I speak from my experiences, understanding... ymmv... etc.)
quote:

ORIGINAL: ghitaPVH

hmmmm....while I definantly thank you all for your answers...I think maybe I should expand my question.

I am specifically asking about being assertive towards your Top (Dom, Sir, Domme, Mistress, Master, Daddy, whatever)..while still being submissive. This is an ongoing conversation I have been having offline with some friends and I would like some extra input. I purposefully tried to stay vauge in my first post because I didnt want to direct answers too much, but I guess I didnt direct them enough...lol. Assertiveness within your relationship...thats the topic Id like your thoughts on. Are you? How are you? If you are a top is your submissive? How? Do you find assertiveness a good quality or one you want to repress in some way? Thanks.

ghita~


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I have never been lifted so high as when I kneel at His feet.

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RE: assertive vs submissive - 11/21/2007 11:40:02 AM   
breatheasone


Posts: 4004
Joined: 7/14/2007
Status: offline 		"Learning to become assertive enough to voice my opinion, state my desires clearly and ask for what I want or need is something NChaka has insisted upon since the beginning.  I didn't do that in my marriage and it almost killed me.  It did suck almost every drop of joy and peace out of my life.  Developing my ability to be assertive is something NChaka continues to do, even as my submission to Him deepens.  It is especially apparent in my dealings with my ex, my UM's, my extended family and in my dealings with the world at large.  It is perfectly possible to be assertive without being aggressive or disrespectful and that is what NChaka expects of me."

I can 200% relate to this ...Thank you for sharing it.


< Message edited by breatheasone -- 11/21/2007 11:41:27 AM >

_____________________________

Romans 10:13,For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
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RE: assertive vs submissive - 11/21/2007 11:49:41 AM   
allcatsaregrey


Posts: 77
Joined: 11/2/2007
From: Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		It is certainly possible. I remember reading once that, "who you are in life can sometimes be the opposite of who you are in the bedroom." For me, this is true to an extent. On the surface I seem polite, eager to please and very sweet. However, in some areas, like my job and school, I am assertive and even competitive. In the same sense, like others have stated, I am assertive when it comes to His needs. 

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c.,
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"Domination's the name of the game, in bed or in life, they're both just the same - Except in one you're fulfilled
at the end of the day."

- Depeche Mode, "Master & servant"

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RE: assertive vs submissive - 11/21/2007 2:07:54 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline 		Ditto me to TammyJo.  Being a submissive to someone simply means operating under their authority.  If their authority includes that you actively behave assertively, even towards them, then there's nothing conflicting about your submission.

Like TammyJo, I definitely am teaching my partner to be more assertive, especially towards me.

Masters claim they want strong partners, but somehow most of them don't seem to honestly mean it when it comes to the sticking point.  Luckily, there are still plenty of good ones who DO mean it.

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RE: assertive vs submissive - 11/21/2007 2:55:27 PM   
denika


Posts: 619
Joined: 8/30/2005
Status: offline 		Definatly possible to be both, there is a diffrence between assertive and aggressive tho. But  even that can find a place as a submissive, particularily if you make it part of your play.



Wolf's denika

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RE: assertive vs submissive - 11/21/2007 3:04:26 PM   
akisha


Posts: 2071
Joined: 6/25/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

Absolutely! I am a very assertive person.


Ditto!!

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RE: assertive vs submissive - 11/21/2007 4:04:03 PM   
topcat


Posts: 1675
Joined: 1/31/2004
From: Tidewater, VA
Status: offline 		Midear Ghita-
 
I usually use "proactive" in describing one of the qualities I look for in a submissive, but Assertive is not a bad term for what I want.
 
This does include the likely hood that at somepoint she will say something along the lines of "yo, jackass- are you going to have another drink, or not teach me to drive the bike home?" (actual quote from one of the very best).
 
As much as I hate the word, intent is more important than delivery. I expect respectful discourse within the parameters of our dynamic most of the time, but if my behavior is falling outside of it, I expect to have it brought to my attention. My prime directive for anyone serving me is 'Protect the Property'- including protecting herself from me, or even myself from myself...
 
In the more day to day, I expect her to assert herself, to speak her mind fully and clearly, and to bend to my will gracefully and willingly.

does that help?

Stay warm,
Lawrence 

< Message edited by topcat -- 11/21/2007 4:05:27 PM >

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RE: assertive vs submissive - 11/21/2007 4:23:37 PM   
kyraofMists


Posts: 3292
Joined: 7/29/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: topcat
I expect respectful discourse within the parameters of our dynamic most of the time, but if my behavior is falling outside of it, I expect to have it brought to my attention. My prime directive for anyone serving me is 'Protect the Property'- including protecting herself from me, or even myself from myself...


This sounds very similar to what I am required to do and it is one of the hardest instructions to follow.  Having to let him know that his behavior is falling outside of what he considers acceptable usually pisses him off.  He is not usually angry at me, but at himself and the situation.  The ability to be assertive is a definite plus in those times.

Knight's Kyra

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"Passion... it lies in all of us. Sleeping, waiting, and though unbidden, it will stir, open its jaws, and howl. It speaks to us, guides us... passion rules us all. And we obey..." ~Angelus

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RE: assertive vs submissive - 11/21/2007 4:29:06 PM   
topcat


Posts: 1675
Joined: 1/31/2004
From: Tidewater, VA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kyraofMists

quote:

ORIGINAL: topcat
I expect respectful discourse within the parameters of our dynamic most of the time, but if my behavior is falling outside of it, I expect to have it brought to my attention. My prime directive for anyone serving me is 'Protect the Property'- including protecting herself from me, or even myself from myself...


This sounds very similar to what I am required to do and it is one of the hardest instructions to follow.  Having to let him know that his behavior is falling outside of what he considers acceptable usually pisses him off.  He is not usually angry at me, but at himself and the situation.  The ability to be assertive is a definite plus in those times.

Knight's Kyra


Dear Kyra,
 
Yes! exactly- and I too expect her to be 'assertive' enough to know that my displeasure is not directed at her, and to give me enough room to deal with my own failings. Excellent.
 
My Regards and congratuations to your M., yourself and your co-slave, BTW.
 
Stay warm,
Lawrence

_____________________________

-there is no remission without blood-

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RE: assertive vs submissive - 11/21/2007 4:32:45 PM   
kyraofMists


Posts: 3292
Joined: 7/29/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: topcat
My Regards and congratuations to your M., yourself and your co-slave, BTW.
 
Stay warm,
Lawrence


Thank you, Lawrence.

It is a shame we didn't know you were in Florida.  Last month we spent 4 - 5 days in St. Augustine; a missed opportunity.

Hope you have a happy Thanksgiving.

Knight's Kyra

_____________________________

"Passion... it lies in all of us. Sleeping, waiting, and though unbidden, it will stir, open its jaws, and howl. It speaks to us, guides us... passion rules us all. And we obey..." ~Angelus

(in reply to topcat)
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RE: assertive vs submissive - 11/21/2007 4:35:47 PM   
topcat


Posts: 1675
Joined: 1/31/2004
From: Tidewater, VA
Status: offline 		Dear Kyra-
 
Damn! right down the road from me, too. Of course, I have only realised that I moved here some months ago- it was an accident...
 
May you all have so much to be thankful for that the turkey goes cold...

Stay warm,
Lawrence

< Message edited by topcat -- 11/21/2007 4:36:47 PM >

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