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Topping from the Bottom - 8/11/2005 12:53:05 PM

KnightofMists

Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
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Topping from the Bottom. Well this is a pet peeve of mine... a Pet peeve NOT becuase I particularly agree with the term or even the concept of it.... but because so many throw the term around as a label upon peoples behaviors that results in some sort of judgement that decrees the relationship and/or individuals is less or somehow deficienct for the behaviors they demonstrate.

So my questions... What is your thoughts on Topping from the Bottom... is it real? Is it a negative to a person or relationship? When is Topping from the Bottom acceptable or is it ever acceptable? Whose problem is it? or is it even a problem in the first place? and any other questions you think is appropriate for the discussion.?

KoM

Post #: 1

RE: Topping from the Bottom - 8/11/2005 1:17:51 PM

Mercnbeth

Posts: 11766
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Yes it's real and I identify those who script their activities or submit to someone only under a certain set of conditions, sensation seekers not subs, and certainly not slaves. I have also consistently taken the position that anyone who sessions with a "safe-word" is topping from the bottom. How can you argue that position, if by definition the "top" must stop when hearing a certain word?

< Message edited by Mercnbeth -- 8/11/2005 1:19:29 PM >

(in reply to KnightofMists)

Post #: 2

RE: Topping from the Bottom - 8/11/2005 1:20:01 PM

tade

Posts: 663
Joined: 4/23/2005
From: Tampa Bay, Florida
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I would say that whether it is a problem or not depends on the people involved. If I/we had a bottom that was constantly giving me directions as to what to do to her then I would have a big problem with it. If all you want from me is to do X,Y and Z by the numbers you give me then why wouldn't I be the one wearing the collar? I always like to get an idea of where they are and where they would like for things to go, but that is another animal entirely from my following directions, which is what my idea of Topping from the bottom means. If you don't want me to be in control then we have no trust. Sometimes maybe it's a desire to have control taken, but I don't think that's what you are talking about.Oh don't get me wrong, we have had subs that would sort of try to do that but a well placed riding crop and a clothes pin on the tongue pretty much solves that little problem. If not then I would say that we weren't the right Tops for her at that moment in time.

Between now and then,
Tade

_____________________________

I wouldn't recommend sex, drugs or insanity for everyone, but they've always worked for me.
Hunter S. Thompson

It's a magical world Hobbes 'ole buddy. Let's go explorin'~ Calvin

(in reply to KnightofMists)

Post #: 3

RE: Topping from the Bottom - 8/11/2005 1:26:01 PM

Padriag

Posts: 2633
Joined: 3/30/2005
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Hmmm... been discussed a few times before but what the heck, what hasn't been discussed before around here?

I thinking about how to answer your questions, it struck me that the first order of business is to establish what each of us thinks topping from the bottom is. Afterall, terms get confused a lot in this lifestyle and with few widely accepted definitions we could argue til the cows come home over a misunderstanding. (Can you tell I grew up on a farm?)

To me topping from the bottom is this... when the submissive attempts to control the flow or direction of either a scene or a relationship without regard for submitting to the dominants wishes. In other words, attempting to have their way inspite of where the dominant is trying to take things.

Now with that definition in mind for context, here are my answers to your questions.

Is it real?
Yes, and not entirely unexpected really. We sometime push submissives in directions that are difficult for them and a certain amount of resistance to that should not be surprising. In other cases Psychological Reactance Theory helps explain it, which in lay terms essentially boils down to this... tell someone they can't have something or do something and the average person immediately has an urge to want or do exactly that. An lastly some of it is just plain selfishness on the part of the submissive.

Is it a negative to a person or relationship?
It can be if it gets out of control, if the submissive refuses to accept discipline or correct the behavior or if the dominant lacks the skills to deal with it effectively. The basic dynamic of a D/s or M/s relationship is that the submissive willingly submits to the authority of the dominant. Everything else builds off of that. Topping from the bottom, as I defined it above, is directly in conflict with that and thus could potentially be very destructive to the relationship if it goes unchecked and uncorrected. Its like leaving a huge crack in the foundation of your relationship unrepaired... eventually it can cause the whole house to crumble.

When is Topping from the Bottom acceptable or is it ever acceptable?
Its never acceptable and should always be corrected when it occurs. However, its also not realistic to think it will never happen. In some cases there is a natural tendancy towards it basic to human nature (ie Pychological Reactance Theory). How a dominant deals with it depends in part on understanding the root cause. If the submissive is just being selfish and rebellious you have a potentially serious problem (since that is not an attitude conducive to a healthy D/s or M/s relationship). On the other hand if it stems from more normal causes and the submissive accepts correction, then it can be dealt with without much trouble at all.

Whose problem is it?
Technically its the problem of both, the consequences if its not properly dealt with will certainly affect both. The dominant needs to take the time to figure out exactly what is going on and react appropriately. Is the submissive reacting out of fear, for example say the submissive is afraid of cages and thus tries to coerce, cajole and manipulate the dominant away from putting her in a cage, you would deal with that very differently than you would one who say was simply being rebellious just to annoy and aggrivate you. In the former case the submissive's motives aren't to be disobedient, but is driven by fear and that fear needs to be addressed. In the later case you have a disobedient and disrespectful submissive who is just plain being a brat.

Is it a problem?
Yes... how much of a problem depends on what is motivating the behavior. Brats are harder to deal with than fear in my experience, but YMMV.

Hmmm... other appropriate questions...

What are some examples of topping from the bottom?
How do you personally define topping from the bottom?
What are some methods for dealing with topping from the bottom? What about dealing with the different motives or do you believe in a "one solution fits all" approach?

_____________________________

Padriag

A stern discipline pervades all nature, which is a little cruel so that it may be very kind - Edmund Spencer

(in reply to KnightofMists)

Post #: 4

RE: Topping from the Bottom - 8/11/2005 1:51:44 PM

Fidelity

Posts: 192
Joined: 8/1/2005
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I'll give an example of how I deal with topping from the bottom. If there are issues with my style during a scene, I would prefer to hear about them before or after it-not during.

I had one sub who insisted on directing my moves, for instance. This tended to throw off my focus and flow. Very annoying,and it ruined my happy times with her. After having spoken with her about it a few times,she did it yet again,during a flogging.

I stopped, and undid the restraints. I said nothing,just handed her the flogger,pointed to a mirror on the wall,and stared it her.

The implied reaction from me was "If you don't like how I do this-do it YOURSELF." She turned beet red with embarsassment,and I sent her home.

It didn't happen again,but her communication before and after increased GREATLY in quality. It's not that hard to deal with these issues,you just have to both be on the same page. Not in different books,in other cities.

(in reply to Padriag)

Post #: 5

RE: Topping from the Bottom - 8/11/2005 2:02:22 PM

ManOwner

Posts: 127
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Sacramento, California
Status: offline

I understand topping from the bottom to mean "I want you to do ___ to me," and twoo submissiveness to mean "Use me in whatever way pleases you."

Unfortunately, most of the scores of poor sub males I know that have such a hard time finding a Domme fall into the former category.

However, I am still a green Domme, and I find nothing wrong with a sub male who wants to suggest ways to serve me. I would consider someone like that a rare gem.

(in reply to Fidelity)

Post #: 6

RE: Topping from the Bottom - 8/11/2005 2:04:14 PM

BeachMystress

Posts: 2156
Joined: 4/3/2004
From: Naples Island- Long Beach CA - Southern California
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To me, topping from below on any type of regular basis shows that the "sub" in question wants to have things their own way.. they want the play to focus on the aspects they find titillating. Since most of us consider that the sub is, at the base of things, there to do the Dominant's will, this behaviour seems counterproductive in a "real sub".

I don't like using the term "real sub" for fear of being misunderstood, but I used it here. Before someone starts screaming, this is not a "value judgement".. to me it is a definition. A "real sub" is one who is submissive to his/her Dom/me in every day life. The Dominant is the head of the household. The other type of sub to me is the "bedroom" or "role play" submissive- one who likes to submit in the bedroom or on a part time basis when they are in the mood for it. This type of sub usually wants to be in charge of the household in daily life. I feel both "real" and "role play" subs bring something to the lifestyle and are valid ways of practicing BDSM.

A "real sub" might top from the bottom at times, to get a particular need met, out of a passing mood or out of not understanding that the exact thing they were doing was seen as being toppy. A "role play" sub might also have the same reasons, but there is also the fact that they are not invested in the Dominant being the true person in charge. Their surrender, is by nature, temporary. It is harder to do the swing from considering your needs first to giving it all over to a Dominant than it is to live it daily, just because it does not become habit. The mindset is different. In such a case, topping from below may happen just because on that day, they're having more trouble than usual putting aside their daily self. (This can also happen with a "real" sub, just not as often.)

You also have the people who are "subbing Dominants"- those who want to have their submission THEIR way. If they can find a pleaser who is more invested in making their partner happy than they are in a certain role this can work well for a couple. I was surprised the first time I saw it in real life, and it took me a while to understand what was going on. I was fairly confused until I realized that nature of the relationship. In this relationship, bottoming from the top and topping from below are the natural order of things.

_____________________________

Beach Mystress
*Do not threaten the weak. Intimidate the strong. ~ Stevenson*
http://beachmystress.jigsy.com
http://www.flickr.com/photos/beachmystress/

(in reply to KnightofMists)

Post #: 7

RE: Topping from the Bottom - 8/11/2005 2:13:22 PM

Fidelity

Posts: 192
Joined: 8/1/2005
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This all really boils down to respecting the needs and perogatives of your partner. Find another who will,if it is not in you to.

(in reply to BeachMystress)

Post #: 8

RE: Topping from the Bottom - 8/11/2005 3:11:44 PM

tarnishedhalo777

Posts: 119
Status: offline

My bitch tops from the bottom.I truly believe he is/was the true dominant in our relationship,for the most part.At times he would give into my wishes but it was he that found and brought out my Domme side.In all reality he was training me to please him.I may have dominated in the bedroom but it was b/c we shared the same kinks.Emotionally I am the submissive.Maybe it just feels that way now b/c our relationship has shifted(at his request).Sometimes I think I am better off w/out him instead of his constant running from feelings or thinking now he is missing something out there or whatever it is that's going on.

_____________________________

I will not die the death of loneliness by being afraid to love and afraid to get hurt. I will not commit figurative suicide by leaving my potential underdeveloped because I am afraid to take risks.

(in reply to KnightofMists)

Post #: 9

RE: Topping from the Bottom - 8/11/2005 4:17:22 PM

CalliopePurple

Posts: 2539
Joined: 11/29/2004
From: SeaTac area
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Love the sig, tarnished.

_____________________________

Kimi ni aitakute dare yori mo aitakute
hajimete kimi ni atta hoshizora no shita de.
Kimi ni tsutaetai todokanai omoi demo
boku no kokoro wa mada kimi o sagashiteiru.

Gackt - Kimi ni Aitakute

(in reply to tarnishedhalo777)

Post #: 10

RE: Topping from the Bottom - 8/11/2005 5:34:34 PM

imtempting

Posts: 1280
Joined: 2/11/2005
Status: offline

Do a search of the forums and you will see this is talked about heaps of late.

(in reply to KnightofMists)

Post #: 11

RE: Topping from the Bottom - 8/11/2005 7:05:23 PM

domtimothy46176

Posts: 670
Joined: 12/25/2004
From: Dayton, Ohio area
Status: offline

I define topping from the bottom as passive-agressive behavior used by a bottom to force a top into a direction against the top's will. I intentionally keep my working definition narrow and negative. I also take the time, when getting to know a potential bottom, how I define the phrase and what my feelings are on the subject. I make it understood that politely worded requests are always taken under consideration but TFTB is grounds for dismissal.
I am a firm proponent of open, honest communication as a neccessary basis for any successful relationship and I simply will not tolerate attempts to shirk that responsibility.
Timothy

(in reply to KnightofMists)

Post #: 12

RE: Topping from the Bottom - 8/11/2005 9:15:09 PM

sub4hire

Posts: 6775
Joined: 1/1/2004
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quote:

What is your thoughts on Topping from the Bottom... is it real? Is it a negative to a person or relationship? When is Topping from the Bottom acceptable or is it ever acceptable? Whose problem is it? or is it even a problem in the first place? and any other questions you think is appropriate for the discussion.?

It is real. It is only negative if both parties do not agree to it. There is a wide variety of people out there who want different things within their relationships.
Personal preference. It doesn't make anyone less real or more real...just plain old personal preference. Although it is a highly debated discussion no matter when it is brought up.

(in reply to KnightofMists)

Post #: 13

RE: Topping from the Bottom - 8/12/2005 2:10:49 PM

tarnishedhalo777

Posts: 119
Status: offline

Thanks!

_____________________________

I will not die the death of loneliness by being afraid to love and afraid to get hurt. I will not commit figurative suicide by leaving my potential underdeveloped because I am afraid to take risks.

(in reply to CalliopePurple)

Post #: 14

RE: Topping from the Bottom - 8/12/2005 6:02:43 PM

nella

Posts: 1243
Joined: 12/30/2004
From: Norway
Status: offline

When desiding how to have our D/s relationship my Dom often asks me, will this or this work for you, will you be happy like this, or is there anything you would like. And i answer, i have preferances, do that mean i am topping from the bottom, now i do not see it like that. i do hoever see a safeword as that and do not ahve one, i will tell my Dom if i can take somthing no more, but it is his desition to stop or not.

What i see as topping from the bottom is subs that willingly disobeys just to bring froth a punishment. When doing that the Dom is forced to do somthing, for if they just let it go, they undermine their authority, but if they do punish the sub, they do exacty what he or she wants, that is what i see as topping from the bottom.

(in reply to tarnishedhalo777)

Post #: 15

RE: Topping from the Bottom - 8/13/2005 1:34:09 AM

Focus50

Posts: 3962
Joined: 12/28/2004
From: Newcastle, Australia
Status: offline

I've often said that if 5 subs (for eg) were marooned on an island, *one* of them would take charge because someone needs to for the benefit of all....

With that in mind, when a sub is Topping from the bottom within a D/s relationship I tend to think the problem lies with the Dom/me. D/s is about control and if you can't control your sub, you'll get the respect you deserve as a consequence. It's the sub's way of reminding each of their role - I have my way and subs have theirs!

Focus50.

(in reply to KnightofMists)

Post #: 16

RE: Topping from the Bottom - 8/13/2005 4:29:08 AM

nella

Posts: 1243
Joined: 12/30/2004
From: Norway
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i agree to some extent Focus50 but the subs must coperate in the control giving as well, it is not all on the Dom`s sholders.

(in reply to Focus50)

Post #: 17

RE: Topping from the Bottom - 8/13/2005 6:47:19 AM

tarnishedhalo777

Posts: 119
Status: offline

yes that is exactly it indeed.
and
I am not in the relationship anymore b/c of that.
I will not tolerate the emotional trouble that having a SAM brings about.

_____________________________

I will not die the death of loneliness by being afraid to love and afraid to get hurt. I will not commit figurative suicide by leaving my potential underdeveloped because I am afraid to take risks.

(in reply to nella)

Post #: 18

RE: Topping from the Bottom - 8/13/2005 7:05:23 AM

nella

Posts: 1243
Joined: 12/30/2004
From: Norway
Status: offline

i am sorry to hear you have had relationship trubbels tarnishedhalo777 i wish you luck and hapyness in the future.

(in reply to tarnishedhalo777)

Post #: 19

RE: Topping from the Bottom - 8/13/2005 10:09:46 PM

SherriA

Posts: 544
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

Topping from the Bottom. Well this is a pet peeve of mine... a Pet peeve NOT becuase I particularly agree with the term or even the concept of it.... but because so many throw the term around as a label upon peoples behaviors that results in some sort of judgement that decrees the relationship and/or individuals is less or somehow deficienct for the behaviors they demonstrate.

Fortunately for me, I don't give a flying fig what anyone else thinks, so the TFB label doesn't bother me at all. In fact, I often tell people that I "co-top from the bottom" and I happen to think that's a very positive thing. I have just as much invested in a scene going well, so why wouldn't I do my part to keep it moving in a positive direction? Nothing wrong with that, so long as it's understood and accepted by all parties involved, imnsho.

quote:

What is your thoughts on Topping from the Bottom... is it real?

Sure.

quote:

Is it a negative to a person or relationship?

Not necessarily. If everyone involved is ok with it, then it's just fine.

quote:

When is Topping from the Bottom acceptable or is it ever acceptable?

It's acceptable when the individuals involved think it's just fine and it works for them, as it does in my interactions.

quote:

Whose problem is it? or is it even a problem in the first place?

If it's a problem, then the individuals in question need to clarify their expectations and see if they're really compatible. Perhaps they're not. No big deal; there are lots of other people out there.

Really, I think *Topping from the Bottom* gets a bad rap. The phrase is always used with such disdain and disgust, both for the top that allows it to happen and the bottom who does it. It really doesn't have to be negative at all. We all see things through our own filters, of course, but just because it looks bad through your filters doesn't mean that it's bad through mine or my partners'.

One factor might be that I don't generally play with a d/s dynamic. I'm more a fan of SM scenes, so I'm not looking for a power imbalance. I'm all about compatible partners who will get something positive out of the scene while I get something positive out of it too. There's give and take, but ultimately, it's about both (or all) of us getting our needs met. In order for that to happen, it sometimes takes input from me during the scene, especially with new partners. Fortunately, my partners tend not to have such fragile egos that they're crushed by my input.

_____________________________

-- Sherri

Fighting for peace is like fucking for virginity.

(in reply to KnightofMists)

Post #: 20

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