Twisted Behavior (Full Version)

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LATEXBABY64 -> Twisted Behavior (11/24/2007 8:14:11 AM)

I had someone approach me and ask a question. In our lifestyle we have a whole melting pot of people via ideas concepts some  good and some bad. This person was asking the question.  The Sadist Dom's and domes are we giving an out let for people who might be abusive in a Neilla relationship. Now peoples here are going to say what might be abuse to one person might not be to someone else. So here is my question. 

     When  is it abuse and how do you explain to a sub what  that it is so they know the difference. ( I do not want post of links or sites just your opinions)
     What are some of the signs of a abusive relationship via mental or physical
     What  actions can you take if you know a 100 percent that someone is in danger of death or being hurt.
      How do you break the programming of an abused submissive or Dom (if you enter into a relationship with a partner find out they have been abused in the past how do you avoid making them feel they are still in those relationships

     Disclaimer ( everything posted has nothing to do with said person or persons other then general observations about life the universal code etc )



Elegant -> RE: Twisted Behavior (11/24/2007 8:31:58 AM)

http://www.nlaidvproject.us/html/index.php
The NLA DVP National Leather Association Domestic Violence Project
May be the best source for information to help someone determine if it is Domestic Violence or BDSM.
The project has been going on for just short of 10 years, so the recognition that we need to differencitate between the two is not new.



yourMissTress -> RE: Twisted Behavior (11/24/2007 8:34:35 AM)

a·buse  [image]http://cache.lexico.com/g/d/premium.gif[/image]  [image]http://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.png[/image][image]http://cache.lexico.com/g/d/speaker.gif[/image]  /v. əˈbyuz; n. əˈbyus/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[v. uh-byooz; n. uh-byoos] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation verb, a·bused, a·bus·ing, noun
–verb (used with object)



1.
to use wrongly or improperly; misuse: to abuse one's authority.



2.
to treat in a harmful, injurious, or offensive way: to abuse a horse; to abuse one's eyesight.



3.
to speak insultingly, harshly, and unjustly to or about; revile; malign.



4.
to commit sexual assault upon.



5.
Obsolete. to deceive or mislead. –noun



6.
wrong or improper use; misuse: the abuse of privileges.



7.
harshly or coarsely insulting language: The officer heaped abuse on his men.



8.
bad or improper treatment; maltreatment: The child was subjected to cruel abuse.



9.
a corrupt or improper practice or custom: the abuses of a totalitarian regime.



10.
rape or sexual assault.



11.
Obsolete. deception. —Idiom



12.
abuse oneself, to masturbate.


[Origin: 1400–50; (v.) late ME abusen < MF abuser, v. deriv. of abus < L abūsus misuse, wasting, equiv. to abūt(ī) to use up, misuse (ab- ab- + ūtī to use) + -tus suffix of v. action; (n.) late ME abus < MF abus or L abūsus[image]http://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.png[/image]]  
American Psychological Association (APA):
abuse. (n.d.). Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1). Retrieved November 24, 2007, from Dictionary.com website: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/abuseChicago Manual Style (CMS):
abuse. Dictionary.com. Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1). Random House, Inc. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/abuse (accessed: November 24, 2007).Modern Language Association (MLA):
"abuse." Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1). Random House, Inc. 24 Nov. 2007. <Dictionary.com http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/abuse>. What this definition leaves out, is the word that makes it abuse in wiitwd; that word is CONSENT.   How do you explain to someone that they are in an abusive relationship?  They usually know it before you do.  Often they just need to know that they have the support of a caring or concerned friend.  Sometimes there is nothing anyone can do or say. What actions can you take if you know someone is in danger?Are they rational?  Are they willing to leave?  If not, it depends on what state or country you live in.   How do you reprogram them?  Every individual is different.  Professional therapy is a good start. There are so many different reasons that people do what they do, or put up with what they put up with, and unless you are in their heads and hearts you have no idea why they are where they are in their lives.  Pointing out what you see in a relationship, without judgement, is difficult to do, but necessary if you feel that someone is in danger of harming another, or being harmed themselves. What is the universal code?    



azropedntied -> RE: Twisted Behavior (11/24/2007 8:42:10 AM)

When is it abuse ?when it is not consensual between the two parties envolved .To some what may seem like abuse maybe their good time .Abuse comes in all forms mental and physical subbtle to the obvious .



LATEXBABY64 -> RE: Twisted Behavior (11/24/2007 8:44:13 AM)

    There are sometimes were a sub or people can get addicted to bad behavior. For example ( a person is beat on and keeps going back that person even after restraining orders and all kinds of things. I have read about a couple of instances like that)



beltainefaerie -> RE: Twisted Behavior (11/24/2007 9:00:51 AM)

I think that the major difference is consent.  Did you want to be hit, etc?  Then that is what we do.  If not, then it is abuse.  However, I would also look for warning signs that are typical in abusive relationships.  If they want you to disassociate from family and friends and spend all of your time with them exclusively, or only with people they allow, that tends far more toward the abusive end of controlling than just dominant.  Certainly, there could be some weird circumstances that made that okay, but generally if that was starting to occur, I'd run like hell. 



azropedntied -> RE: Twisted Behavior (11/24/2007 9:10:12 AM)

LATEX > thats just like the abused housewife /spouse who get hit time after time , bones broken ,eye blackened ,bruised and battered yet she will not press charges , taking the person back time and time again .Again  their choice to stay or go.. An order of protection only works when the one who has the order against them follows said order and obeys  it .
About the only  thing that may help in cases like these is outside forces , your personal network , when they try and help come to your aide and say get outta that relationship ,whay are you taking the abuse ?Change you and remove yourself from it .



eyesopened -> RE: Twisted Behavior (11/24/2007 9:14:49 AM)

i wonder sometimes if a certain amount of violence is part of human sexual response.  i have never studied this but it seems that in the animal world it is a way of displaying Dominance not just toward other males but also toward the females.  It is normal in both large cats and domestic cats for the male to bite the neck of the female while mating.  Again, i could be very very wrong but violence in sex (mating) seems more prevelant among preditors than with prey animals.

So how does a healthy human animal deal with being in an orderly community of people and experience ones more base instincts?  The only way i can see this is through CONSENTUAL BDSM practices.  i want my Master to know that He can safely allow Himself to act upon His impluses in a controlled and consentual manner.  For me, bdsm is a way to feel completely female and compltely male without reprocussions from society.  Your mileage may vary.



sexyred1 -> RE: Twisted Behavior (11/24/2007 9:20:00 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: eyesopened

i wonder sometimes if a certain amount of violence is part of human sexual response.  i have never studied this but it seems that in the animal world it is a way of displaying Dominance not just toward other males but also toward the females.  It is normal in both large cats and domestic cats for the male to bite the neck of the female while mating.  Again, i could be very very wrong but violence in sex (mating) seems more prevelant among preditors than with prey animals.

So how does a healthy human animal deal with being in an orderly community of people and experience ones more base instincts?  The only way i can see this is through CONSENTUAL BDSM practices.  i want my Master to know that He can safely allow Himself to act upon His impluses in a controlled and consentual manner.  For me, bdsm is a way to feel completely female and compltely male without reprocussions from society.  Your mileage may vary.


Great answer and totally true for me as well. Human beings are animalistic at our core and that primal urge is one that we all deal with in our own ways. BDSM is the safe way to deal with them.



pinksugarsub -> RE: Twisted Behavior (11/24/2007 9:26:21 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LATEXBABY64

I had someone approach me and ask a question. In our lifestyle we have a whole melting pot of people via ideas concepts some  good and some bad. This person was asking the question.  The Sadist Dom's and domes are we giving an out let for people who might be abusive in a Neilla relationship. Now peoples here are going to say what might be abuse to one person might not be to someone else. So here is my question. 

    When  is it abuse and how do you explain to a sub what  that it is so they know the difference. ( I do not want post of links or sites just your opinions)
    What are some of the signs of a abusive relationship via mental or physical
    What  actions can you take if you know a 100 percent that someone is in danger of death or being hurt.
     How do you break the programming of an abused submissive or Dom (if you enter into a relationship with a partner find out they have been abused in the past how do you avoid making them feel they are still in those relationships

    Disclaimer ( everything posted has nothing to do with said person or persons other then general observations about life the universal code etc )


There is no comparision, IMO, between a Sadist and an abuser.  One seeks to give pleasure through pain, with a submissive's consent.  The other has serious issues and just whales on his wife or girlfriend.
 
There is no way to save a battered person until they wake up to the abuse.  Then you can do practical thngs, like driving them to a shelter.
 
There is no way to erase a person's past; issues will/may arise in a D/s relationship from one or the other's past; it just takes trust and sensitivity to cope with it well.
 
JMO
 
pinksugarsub



breatheasone -> RE: Twisted Behavior (11/24/2007 9:34:50 AM)

I absolutely do not think this life style is abusive.... just kinky...BIG difference. If someone knows for sure..or is even reasonable sure there is abuse I would HOPE they would take some kind of action.....



julietsierra -> RE: Twisted Behavior (11/24/2007 9:35:44 AM)

The difference between abuse and what we do, as others have said, is consent. However, often that consent is hard to read from the outside looking in.

So, my take on all this is to be a friend. Be a friend whether the abuse is occurring or not. Be a friend in good times and in bad and make sure that those who call you a friend know you can be counted on in times of trouble as much as when times are good. And then, stand back. I know it goes against the grain of all those who would rush in to help those being abused, but stand back anyway. Be there if, when and should the abused person ever ask for help.

Other than that, get your nose out of the relationships of others.

Now, this isn't just me being heartless. From personal experience, when people start putting their two cents in on the merits of someone's relationship, what they do is drive that person farther back into the very situation they may be trying to get out of. Often in abusive situations, the abused person vacillates for a long long LONG time before finally being able to make the decision to leave. I KNOW we all want to help and just "know" that if they could just see things the way we on the outside see things, they'd walk away and never look back, so in the interests of helping this person, we in essence, do the very same thing the abuser is doing...we try to encourage, cajole, and force through our "helpful" comments them to leave. They start defending the very person they know is wrong and that just prolongs their stay with that person.

Personally, what REALLY worked for me was when everyone STOPPED listening. You see, when they were listening, I'd use them to get through the rough initial instances of each time it happened...when the shock and the fear was the greatest. After that, when I'd calmed down some, I would come to the realization that I could try again, give him just one more chance. When people stopped listening, there was no one to calm me down, no one to reason with, no one to hear me. That meant the only person that was going to help me was me...and when I realized THAT.. after I stopped being angry at being "cast adrift" by those who genuinely loved me, I realized that I'd run out of options and for some reason, from there, the decision was easy.

So...aside from being someone's friend, regardless of the situation (good or bad)... I don't think we should be informing anyone regarding the basis of their relationship. We should recognize that we have two ears and only one mouth and use them accordingly. We should listen to them and make sure they know they can count on someone out there.. and beyond that, we shouldn't do a thing.

juliet



yourMissTress -> RE: Twisted Behavior (11/24/2007 10:22:38 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LATEXBABY64

   There are sometimes were a sub or people can get addicted to bad behavior. For example ( a person is beat on and keeps going back that person even after restraining orders and all kinds of things. I have read about a couple of instances like that)


And this is why in many states, including TN, it is illegal to hit someone with their consent.  The person being abused will swear to the police, human services, domestic violence counselors and the like that they wanted to be hit, it's ok with them, it's not a big deal, etc...
 
This is where the quote comes in, the one on a certain someone's signature, that I absolutely love; "there are no victims here only volunteers." 
 
The time to get out of an abusive relationship is the very first time it happens.  After that, you know what you are in for, and you are allowing and even encouraging it to happen, because you are still there.  I know that there are going to be plenty of people shouting from the rooftops about the inability of certain people to leave said relationships, and yes, I agree, but that doesn't make it ok to stay, it just makes it harder to leave.
 
 



TNstepsout -> RE: Twisted Behavior (11/24/2007 10:36:04 AM)

Then again, there are other types of abuse. Some people are not being hit or even verbally abused, but the household is tense and anxious because one person keeps everyone on edge with their high strung emotions and temper tantrums. In most cases physical/emotional/verbal abuse comes with a nasty temper and an inability to handle frustration. Therefore I would think that if you see those tendencies in the possible "abuser" and the "abusee" seems tense, anxious and afraid then you probably have an abusive situation on your hands. It's not so much what is done, but the emotion behind it and the trust or lack of it that matters. In a healthy D/s relationship the D might slap his sub/slave and verbally humiliate her, but is not going to do it because dinner is cold and he flew off the handle. 



IrishMist -> RE: Twisted Behavior (11/24/2007 10:49:37 AM)

I am going to regret saying this; I know I will.

I, because of my chosen career; probably see more ‘abusive’ relationships in a day than most will ever see in their lifetime. However, even within the small amount that I have seen, it is still hard to classify them as ‘abuse’ simply because what is abuse to one person, may not be abuse to another.

You can throw every definition at me that you can find; it will not change the fact that I define abuse differently; and the person next to me will define it differently than me. Simple fact.

The same goes when talking about it legally. You can arrest someone who, according the laws and according to your own definition is behaving in an abusive manner; BUT, unless the person on the receiving end is in the same mind frame…it’s not abuse. Period. Simple fact. Counselors see this all the time; police officers see this all the time; hospitals see this all the time.

For myself; having someone point out the classic signs of what most would look at as abuse; it would mean very little to me because I got off on it. I instigated much of it, I went back for more, I thrived off it. And yet, in different circumstances I would have been urging anyone who was in the relationship that I was in to run fast before they ended up dead. What we did to each other was illegal, it was dangerous, and it bordered on the insane.

It was not consensual. I never said ‘hey, anytime you want to hit me, feel free because I think it’s great”. He just came home one day, saw me, and backhanded me across the room. It was so hot that right away all I could think of was ‘do that again…but MORE”

And yet…it was not abuse.

Unless you are inside a persons mind and know their every thought and reason; an outsider can NOT say what is abuse and what is not abuse. It does matter how we define it individually; all that matters is the two people in the relationship and HOW they view it.



SimplyMichael -> RE: Twisted Behavior (11/24/2007 11:11:07 AM)

I think it is abusive to ask questions over and over and offer little in return.



IrishMist -> RE: Twisted Behavior (11/24/2007 11:13:28 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

I think it is abusive to ask questions over and over and offer little in return.

LOL annoying perhaps....abusive would be if he insisted on doing every day, every hour...with the same question....[8D]



SimplyMichael -> RE: Twisted Behavior (11/24/2007 11:15:20 AM)

It is all about motivation.  Do you beat the stupid slut because it grounds her and allows  her to find peace or do you beat the stupid bitch because you feel pathetic and small and by making her fear and cower before you allows you to feel less pathetic and not so small?




IrishMist -> RE: Twisted Behavior (11/24/2007 11:17:30 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

It is all about motivation.  Do you beat the stupid slut because it grounds her and allows  her to find peace or do you beat the stupid bitch because you feel pathetic and small and by making her fear and cower before you allows you to feel less pathetic and not so small?



Bingo



Honsoku -> RE: Twisted Behavior (11/24/2007 11:30:31 AM)

<throws on flak jacket and asbestos lined longjohns>

Almost unanimously people have pointed to consent as the difference between abuse and d/s. I disagree with this on two counts. Firstly, many abusive relationships are consensual in nature. The person being "abused" frequently will not leave of their own volition and if removed will seek to return to the "abuser". How is this not consenting to the relationship? If your response is that because they return out of fear, how is that different than ensuring obedience through the threat of punishment? How many of you would lose respect for your dominant if he did not enforce the rules?

Secondly, many d/s relationships have non-consensual treatment as a major part of the relationship (at the very best, consent gets really fuzzy). I am reminded of something Tigrita said; "I don't really want to be submissive, I want to be dominated". The act of dominating another implies a lack of choice on the part of the person being dominated. There is an underlying current of force, of "make me", in a lot of d/s relationships. If force is used (whether it is psychological or physical), consent is arguably non-existent, as you can not consent to force else it is no longer force. If you fall back on "i consent to being there" then go back to the previous paragraph.

The difference is not consent but content. If you are content with your overall treatment, it isn't abuse. If you aren't content, then it is abuse (in the context of this thread).



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