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Archbishop of Canterbury says U.S. has lost the high mo... - 11/25/2007 12:11:15 PM   
popeye1250


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I think he makes some good points in making a comparison to the British Empire and (not the U.S. but...) the Bush Administration.
I think 70% of Americans want our Troops *out* of Iraq.
One thing about Bush though, he was never a good "listener" and he's a very bad "decider."
How do people like him and Patrick "Patches" Kennedy get into government with their *90* I.Q.'s and questionable academic credentials?
But, I digress.
I wonder at what point the good Archbishop came to the conclusion that Bush's policies no longer had the "moral high ground?"
And does the Archbishop realise that the American People for the most part want nothing to do with Bush's war?
It's not "our policy", it's Bush's policy.
We know that "Empire" and Imperialism never work yet we have Embasseys in almost every country in the world!
Also, I wonder what the good Archbishop considers "the moral high ground" to be exactly?
What say you?

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RE: Archbishop of Canterbury says U.S. has lost the hig... - 11/25/2007 12:17:42 PM   
feralkyttin


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Status: offline 		Thank you for bringing this to my attention, Sir.

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RE: Archbishop of Canterbury says U.S. has lost the hig... - 11/25/2007 12:20:48 PM   
CuriousLord


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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

What say you?


That the sheep-like nature of religious people affecting world events creeps me out.  I used to be okay with it, since religious leaders seemed to manipulate their followers to take the path that I would have them take myself.  Now, though, it's to the point that it's just creepy.

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RE: Archbishop of Canterbury says U.S. has lost the hig... - 11/25/2007 12:32:05 PM   
Owner59


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quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

What say you?


That the sheep-like nature of religious people affecting world events creeps me out.  I used to be okay with it, since religious leaders seemed to manipulate their followers to take the path that I would have them take myself.  Now, though, it's to the point that it's just creepy.


Jesus was the prince of peace. Yup,real creepy...
Saw the  Dali Lama a couple years ago, give a lecture on peace,at Rutgers U. What a creep...

I think the world needs more "creeps",and less of the self righteous.




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RE: Archbishop of Canterbury says U.S. has lost the hig... - 11/25/2007 12:32:38 PM   
popeye1250


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quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

What say you?


That the sheep-like nature of religious people affecting world events creeps me out.  I used to be okay with it, since religious leaders seemed to manipulate their followers to take the path that I would have them take myself.  Now, though, it's to the point that it's just creepy.


CL, yes, I don't mean to say that religious groups should be dictating what we or our government does.
I wonder if the Archbishop realises that America does not, "speak with one voice" on Iraq, free trade,immigration, outsourcing etc.
Why would I, for example, support things that hurt me or that I don't agree with but that Bush supports?
It doesn't sound like the Archbishop was addressing the American People but more Bush's policies.
I winder what his adress is, I wouldn't mind writing him a letter.

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RE: Archbishop of Canterbury says U.S. has lost the hig... - 11/25/2007 12:35:05 PM   
dcnovice


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the sheep-like nature of religious people


LOL! I'm sure the ABC wishes his fractious flock was considerably more sheep-like.

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RE: Archbishop of Canterbury says U.S. has lost the hig... - 11/25/2007 12:35:38 PM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20071125/us_nm/religion_anglicans_usa_dc

I think he makes some good points in making a comparison to the British Empire and (not the U.S. but...) the Bush Administration.



You know my opinion, Popeye, blaming Bush is the get out of jail free card.

The United States has had its fingers in all sorts of pies since WW2, so, assuming at least some of the post WW2 governments have had popular support, the problem/imperialism runs far deeper than Bush.

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RE: Archbishop of Canterbury says U.S. has lost the hig... - 11/25/2007 12:38:01 PM   
CuriousLord


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Status: offline 		No criticism for your post intended.  Religious schemes affecting the world creeps me out, yes, but your post is simply acknowledging that it's happening, which is legitimate and interesting news.

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RE: Archbishop of Canterbury says U.S. has lost the hig... - 11/25/2007 12:40:22 PM   
CuriousLord


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice
quote:

the sheep-like nature of religious people


LOL! I'm sure the ABC wishes his fractious flock was considerably more sheep-like.


Ah, all he really needs to do is have them sing more songs together, inhale some more "sacarmental fumes", make them a couple more promises of unbelievable bliss, and threaten them with eternal suffering for noncompliance.  Oh, yes, and make sure that education isn't allowed to the point that it would allow the sheep to see through it.  ;)

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RE: Archbishop of Canterbury says U.S. has lost the hig... - 11/25/2007 12:41:24 PM   
popeye1250


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20071125/us_nm/religion_anglicans_usa_dc

I think he makes some good points in making a comparison to the British Empire and (not the U.S. but...) the Bush Administration.



You know my opinion, Popeye, blaming Bush is the get out of jail free card.

The United States has had its fingers in all sorts of pies since WW2, so, assuming at least some of the post WW2 governments have had popular support, the problem/imperialism runs far deeper than Bush.


NG, if you mean Reagan and the Sandinistas I totally disagreed with that!
Or anything else like that!
And, I think our government needs to be "reined-in" when it comes to getting involved in or interfereing in foreign countries.

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RE: Archbishop of Canterbury says U.S. has lost the hig... - 11/25/2007 12:45:35 PM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

That the sheep-like nature of religious people affecting world events creeps me out.  I used to be okay with it, since religious leaders seemed to manipulate their followers to take the path that I would have them take myself.  Now, though, it's to the point that it's just creepy.



When it comes to Iraq, we could have done with a few more "sheep" like the Archbishop of Canterbury in this country, he has been vocal in opposition since day 1. Basically, the man thinks it's inhumane and morally bankrupt to send in a force to secure resources and markets in the knowledge that this will involve widespread misery; regardless of personal opinions on the church, hats off to him for that.

'Thing is, England is a secularised nation; advocates and followers of organised religion aren't sheep in this country, they're a small minority. Moreover, they have an idea which they adhere to, it's not one I agree with, but there are plenty of people outside religion who are steadfast in support of their idea: herd/sheep/unbending mentality is not exclusive to organised religion by any stretch of the imagination.

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RE: Archbishop of Canterbury says U.S. has lost the hig... - 11/25/2007 12:49:38 PM   
Momentum


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Status: offline 		It's time for another head chopping, me thinks!

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RE: Archbishop of Canterbury says U.S. has lost the hig... - 11/25/2007 12:51:12 PM   
popeye1250


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Status: offline 		NG, I agree with him as regards Empire" (India) and Imperialism.
I wonder what his definition of "the moral high ground" is and why do Western countries only, seem to need to have it?
Surely there are a dozen countries in Africa that the Archbishop should be chastising as well.

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RE: Archbishop of Canterbury says U.S. has lost the hig... - 11/25/2007 12:58:00 PM   
dcnovice


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quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice
quote:

the sheep-like nature of religious people


LOL! I'm sure the ABC wishes his fractious flock was considerably more sheep-like.


Ah, all he really needs to do is have them sing more songs together, inhale some more "sacarmental fumes", make them a couple more promises of unbelievable bliss, and threaten them with eternal suffering for noncompliance.  Oh, yes, and make sure that education isn't allowed to the point that it would allow the sheep to see through it.  ;)


Anglicans could sing from now till doomsday (assuming we could agree on what hymnal to use), and I still don't see +Robinson or +Spong or +Akinola growing fleece anytime soon! Not to mention +Tutu, who helped take down apartheid. +Griswold, maybe.

< Message edited by dcnovice -- 11/25/2007 1:31:15 PM >

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it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

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RE: Archbishop of Canterbury says U.S. has lost the hig... - 11/25/2007 12:59:29 PM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

NG, if you mean Reagan and the Sandinistas I totally disagreed with that!
Or anything else like that!
And, I think our government needs to be "reined-in" when it comes to getting involved in or interfereing in foreign countries.



Well, there's Venezuala, Brazil, Nicaragua, Iran, Iraq etc. Was it Kissenger who coined the phrase Realpolitik in the '60s? and the neo-cons of the early '70s (many of whom formed Reagan's government) who believed that the United States had a moral obligation to spread Western Liberal Democracy around the world?

Anyway, I don't doubt that there are many who support a more isolationist policy, but the point remains that successive US governments have had a hand in installing puppet governments in various countries: it's not just the Bush administration by a long chalk.

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RE: Archbishop of Canterbury says U.S. has lost the hig... - 11/25/2007 1:01:45 PM   
LadyEllen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

NG, I agree with him as regards Empire" (India) and Imperialism.
I wonder what his definition of "the moral high ground" is and why do Western countries only, seem to need to have it?
Surely there are a dozen countries in Africa that the Archbishop should be chastising as well.


He cannot possibly go round criticising them who are justifying his influence and position Popeye.

Note, this was in a Muslim publication. Note that the larger part of the Anglican church, and the balance of power, is now in Africa. Note that these African Anglicans are up close and personal with African Muslims.

Note further that the Anglican church in the west - and especially in the US, is "going soft" on homosexuality, and the African Anglicans are up in arms with this as its making them look bad in front of their unbending Muslim neighbours.

So, without mentioning the homosexuality issue, the archbishop attacks the failing morals of the US and the west by extension, for the audience primarily of Muslims and also to keep the homosexuality issue quiet in the African church for a while, by using the Iraq issue. Not a bad strategy, notwithstanding that the Iraq issue is like shooting fish in a barrel (on a Friday of course).

He who pays the archbishop, calls the tune.

E

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RE: Archbishop of Canterbury says U.S. has lost the hig... - 11/25/2007 1:17:18 PM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

NG, I agree with him as regards Empire" (India) and Imperialism.
I wonder what his definition of "the moral high ground" is and why do Western countries only, seem to need to have it?
Surely there are a dozen countries in Africa that the Archbishop should be chastising as well.



Well, the church in England is dying a death, and is largely being propped up by immigrants from Africa. The Archbishop is a supporter of equality within the church; he believes that sexual persuasion should not be the basis for discrimination, but he had to kow-tow to African Anglicans because they're the future, so African politics is a place he's inclined to swerve. In order for his church to retain influence, he needs to appease the Africans.

I suppose the self-proclaimed moral high ground in the West is borne out of arrogance and ignorance; we believe we're morally superior (tacitly and explicitly confirmed every day), and thus we preach moral pre-requisites for our actions: 'shame we don't practice what we preach. I mean, honestly, Iraq down to its bare bones: causing widespread misery for economic gain. Any person/country supporting that kind of behaviour shouldn't be lecturing anyone about morals. As you say, a few governments are overstepping the mark.

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RE: Archbishop of Canterbury says U.S. has lost the hig... - 11/25/2007 1:19:24 PM   
Absolutemaster


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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

We know that "Empire" and Imperialism never work yet we have Embasseys in almost every country in the world!




Most countries have embassies in most other countries.

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RE: Archbishop of Canterbury says U.S. has lost the hig... - 11/25/2007 1:20:54 PM   
popeye1250


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Status: offline 		Lady Ellen, that's a good perspective!
I never thought about it that way, my knowledge of the Anglican Church being somewhat limited.

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RE: Archbishop of Canterbury says U.S. has lost the hig... - 11/25/2007 1:22:04 PM   
dcnovice


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quote:

Lady Ellen, that's a good perspective!


Agreed. Many thanks, milady!

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