A lil introduction and some questions. (Full Version)

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WhiteKnuckleRide -> A lil introduction and some questions. (11/26/2007 10:31:24 AM)

Hi, guys. I'm really not sure how to start this post nor do I know if this is the right place to post. If in the wrong place, feel free to move.

I registered with CollarMe on Saturday, not because I had an overwhelming urge to become someone's slave or master, but because I have a curious mind. To be honest, prior to joining, my definition of sub/dom was who went on top that night...how wrong I was!! :) My profile indicates that I'm a switch; in truth, I'm neither switch, nor sub, nor slave, nor master nor dom. I'm merely curious. I have to admit, tho, the deeper I look into your lifestyle, the more it intrigues me (from an intellectual angle). (I use the word 'your' consciously because, at present, it's not mine and it may never be.)

Before I go on, a little about me. I'm single, male, straight, 35, live the northwest of England. I'm bright, curious, open-minded, adventurous, creative and...haven't got a clue what I wanna do with my life!!! :) I resent authority, like a challenge and I'm prone to act upon a whim.

I value freedom higher than life itself.

Some of what I've read in this and other forums/sites has, frankly, sickened me-I'll address that later-but I do have a few general questions that I hope you can help with, to help me understand a bit more.

As far as I'm concerned, a healthy relationship is split 50/50 in terms of 'power'. My relationships with 'doormats' (for want of a better word; girls who aren't prepared to make decisions or to argue back when they disagree with me; or girls who don't have opinions) have not lasted. If I do something that my girlfriend (at the time) doesn't agree with, I want to know about it. I also want someone who will say to me: "This is what *I'm* doing", occasionally. She needs to have a life away from me and so, when she's with me, I know it's her choice to be with me. :)

At the same time, I can also appreciate that someone may need 'guidance' (again, for want of a better word) in life and, consequently, they need a strong partner. Someone to provide a big hug when the world gets crappy. I like/need hugs, too! :)  I can understand that. It might be that someone has an perpetual low self-esteem and so needs the reassurance of having someone there for them. I don't agree with it but I can understand it. What I can't understand, and here is where I need your help, is how a supposedly sane person can be with someone who, for example, dictates what shampoo he or she can use or what clothes to wear. This goes from being dominant to being something much more...hmmm, the word escapes me at present. I can't understand it from either side: the submissive who thinks this situation is normal and the dominant who insists that it happen. I'm not talking about roleplaying; I'm talking about the full-time relationships.

Training? What is training? As far as I can see, training equals brainwashing. You  can train to be a doctor. You can train (learn) to play an instrument. You can learn to be a better lover. But to train to be subservient??? What normal person trains to become inferior to another?
Or, am I wrong in my reading of all this? If so, please correct me.

I said before that some of the things I've read have sickened me. I was going to write about them here but I feel what I've written above is sufficient. With your permission, I will address the other issues at a later date.
Regarding all I've said, please do not think that I'm here to ridicule you, to start arguments or to take the p***. I've pressed my face up against the window of your world, I don't understand what I see and so I'm asking you, if you will, to explain. I may have read it all wrong then I apologise and hope that you'll set me straight :)

Take care, Neill

]:>



camille65 -> RE: A lil introduction and some questions. (11/26/2007 10:36:44 AM)

Hiyas n welcome to CollarMe. I think you did a fine job of getting your basic questions across, however I don't really have an answer for you.
Helpful huh?
Truly, I suggest you read the forums and continue to ask questions as you are doing now. Some stuff here is freaky and some stuff just seems freaky til the reasons behind it all are understood.
Part of the difficulty is that it is different for each person, then it is different within each relationship which makes for a lot of differences.

If you approach people with the attitude of open curiousity as you have done here, I think you will learn and possibly understand 'stuff'.
Btw, I really like your screen name, it made me smile.



midnightwench -> RE: A lil introduction and some questions. (11/26/2007 10:55:54 AM)

Wow, you have given a lot to answer for there. Let me explain my views.. which may be totally diffrent from anothers views.. that is the joy of being human.

It is not unusual to hear the same questions you are asking from other people. I hope to answer some of the questions in what I write here...(this is part of an explination I wrote for someone else.. so I apologise if it is a little choppy)

I will be writing from a female submissive point of view, although the genders could change and still be the same.
First of all we have to explain what is expected out of a Dom. A Dom is not a Person who wants total power. He is not one that expects a woman to submit to Him completely the first time they meet. That is a wannabe. I will not, have not, and never will submit to a man who thinks dominance is saying "on your knees bitch and service my cock".  A Dom is a man that cherishes His submissive. One that takes the duty of being a Dom seriously, and takes care of His submissive as if she was His most valuable possession, because she is. Now some dislike that word possession, and I can't say that I blame them. Women fought very hard for equal rights, and to have a woman who wants to be possessed by a man as an object goes against everything they believe in. But in a D/s relationship the woman is a cherished gift, adored by the Man who is Dom to her. He looks out for her well being, knows her limits, and knows how far she wishes to be pushed. He provides what she needs to thrive and be well. Sounds like a regular relationship in a way doesn't it? In a way it is very much like a regular relationship. You have love, tenderness, devotion. The difference is that a D/s relationship there has to be a level of trust that is even more then in a regular "vanilla" relationship. The submissive has to trust her Dom to look out for her well being. If she is in to bondage play, she has to trust her Dom not to hurt her, to stop the session when she calls out a safe word, even to realize when she is too far into the play to realize her own boundaries. She trusts Him with her life in that situation. The Dom knows that He has earned this woman that is before Him, that He deserves everything that she does for Him, because He cares for her, looks out for her, worships her as much as she worships Him. There is a level of trust there that I personally have never found in a regular relationship. To be in this type of a relationship there has to be a high level of communication between partners. You have to know what the other person is comfortable with and what they are willing to try. You have to know what is expected and what is desired. Without communication the relationship falls apart.

To be a submissive, hmm this is harder to explain then what a good Dom is. I yearn to serve a Dom. Every part of my body yearns for it. To have the protection of a strong Man, who will hold me when I am weak, who will spank me when I am bratty, who knows every wanton desire that I hold deep in my heart. To have a Man that I can trust fully and completely.  To have a Man that I can curl up around His feet and feel content. To submit to anothers wants and desires and serve them, knowing that if you perform your duties well you will be rewarded, is amazing. There are no stereotypes, and only one expectation. The only expectation is that you do your duty and you perform it well. You want to do well, you want to see the pleasure upon your Dom's face when you serve Him His supper like He enjoys, or you dance for Him and see the desire in His eyes knowing how much of a woman He has before Him. You long to be at His feet while He reads His favorite book, petting your head. You want to, with every fiber of your body, make this Man happy. Why? because it makes you happy. In return this Man will do His best to pleasure you, give you what you desire, make you feel safe and secure. 



The difference between abuse and what we do is abuse is about hurt and anger, what we do is about love and is consensual."


There is a level of eroticism that is there that cannot be obtained in a regular relationship. I have to be dominant in my life. School, Kids, Bill collectors. All of those you have to be dominant in. You are in control. To give yourself over completely to someone is to drop all the walls that you have put up. To relish every lick, every touch as if it was your last. You are living just for that moment, for that touch. To give over all the power to a lover, and know that you are completely safe. 

As far as training... we do not train to be submissive, we train to hone the skills it takes to please. For example.. if our Dom likes a certain type of food we may train to learn to cook it better.  There is also training to help us get over our fears, learn to do housework better, and so on and so forth..

This is part of who I am, and what I am. This is not a kink for me...This is how I choose to live my life. Just like I can't change that I am Bisexual, I can't change being a submissive. You may not understand or like what I do, but I refuse to change and repress myself again like I did for many years before I accepted that I was a submissive.

Hope some of this helps...



RCdc -> RE: A lil introduction and some questions. (11/26/2007 10:56:42 AM)

Welcome to Collarchat forum

quote:

My relationships with 'doormats' (for want of a better word; girls who aren't prepared to make decisions or to argue back when they disagree with me; or girls who don't have opinions) have not lasted.


I wanted to address the issue of doormats - not you in particular, just in general.  There are some extremely cool and well adjusted 'doormats' who simply rock.  I know people see the term and even throw it around like it's a bad thing, but really - you gotta step on doormat to know what one feels like.

quote:

As far as I'm concerned, a healthy relationship is split 50/50 in terms of 'power'.
 
All healthy relationships aren't always 50-50 in terms of power nor equality.  It's a matter of perspective and down to the individuals involved.  It's something so long in the explaining, I wouldn't even try - best advice I can offer is read the boards and see if you can assume which are the healthy relationships, then ask or even assess if they have a 50-50 anything.

quote:

If I do something that my girlfriend (at the time) doesn't agree with, I want to know about it. I also want someone who will say to me: "This is what *I'm* doing", occasionally. She needs to have a life away from me and so, when she's with me, I know it's her choice to be with me. :)


Seems pretty fair.  I know plenty of relationships that have that be they BDSM 'based' or not.  Having a life away from you, isn't the same as having a life without you.

quote:

At the same time, I can also appreciate that someone may need 'guidance' (again, for want of a better word) in life and, consequently, they need a strong partner. Someone to provide a big hug when the world gets crappy. I like/need hugs, too! :)  I can understand that. It might be that someone has an perpetual low self-esteem and so needs the reassurance of having someone there for them. I don't agree with it but I can understand it. What I can't understand, and here is where I need your help, is how a supposedly sane person can be with someone who, for example, dictates what shampoo he or she can use or what clothes to wear. This goes from being dominant to being something much more...hmmm, the word escapes me at present. I can't understand it from either side: the submissive who thinks this situation is normal and the dominant who insists that it happen. I'm not talking about roleplaying; I'm talking about the full-time relationships.


That pretty much goes for all orientations.  You get dominants with low self esteem too.  I know it is really easy to get caught up in the generealisations of things, but it's always easier to understand when you look at individual relationships in the long run.  As for choices of shampoo or clothes, I don;t see much difference in such tight micromanagement as there is in outside what it is we do with someone dressing for work, or wanting to show devotion to another by colouring their hair - sometimes its a fetish, sometimes it's a need.  The only difference is the varying degrees.

quote:

Training? What is training? As far as I can see, training equals brainwashing. You  can train to be a doctor. You can train (learn) to play an instrument. You can learn to be a better lover. But to train to be subservient??? What normal person trains to become inferior to another?
Or, am I wrong in my reading of all this? If so, please correct me.


I would say mis-informed and right at the same time.  Some people take training the way you have described it, some people see training as fullfilling potential, both dominant and submissive.  It's not always about 'my way or the highway' - sometimes it's as simple as 'yes you can achieve!'.
 
There is  much in what you state that seems very - media fed?  Only conversing like you are here and asking LOTS can aid you - even then you might not 'get it' - but being informed beats ignorance any day in my book.
 
Be safe
the.dark.



daddyncherry -> RE: A lil introduction and some questions. (11/26/2007 10:57:39 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: WhiteKnuckleRide



As far as I'm concerned, a healthy relationship is split 50/50 in terms of 'power'. My relationships with 'doormats' (for want of a better word; girls who aren't prepared to make decisions or to argue back when they disagree with me; or girls who don't have opinions) have not lasted. If I do something that my girlfriend (at the time) doesn't agree with, I want to know about it. I also want someone who will say to me: "This is what *I'm* doing", occasionally. She needs to have a life away from me and so, when she's with me, I know it's her choice to be with me. :)

This stuff can also happen in these types of relationships. Not with the power being 50/50 but.... Alot of subs/slaves can offer their opinions and speak their minds....they just do it (or should do it IMO) in a respectful way. They can give imput but the ultimate decision is made by the one who is in charge....Speaking from my own experience...in my past relationship when i spoke my mind, if i were upset or feeling like there was too much on my head it was usually in a bitchy manner and i was quite difficult at times....i couldn't stand that about myself but with someone who i had less respect for and in a relationship where i was more in control that is what manifested. Alot of it was due to fear and feeling massive pressure. That...is gone now.

What I can't understand, and here is where I need your help, is how a supposedly sane person can be with someone who, for example, dictates what shampoo he or she can use or what clothes to wear. This goes from being dominant to being something much more...hmmm, the word escapes me at present. I can't understand it from either side: the submissive who thinks this situation is normal and the dominant who insists that it happen. I'm not talking about roleplaying; I'm talking about the full-time relationships.

From what i know of M/s relationships it seems that the larger portion of the Dominants don't choose to micromanage (tell them what to wear etc.) There are Dominants who like to do that and subs/slaves who respond very well to it. Just as in the work place or in school certain types need more insturuction and over seeing. my relationship isn't roleplaying by any stretch but i know what he likes and there for i do it...or try my best to do it anyway.....If a Dominant has to micromanage it makes alot more work for him/her and it can make some subs/slaves feel very boxed in (and not in a good way)

Training? What is training? As far as I can see, training equals brainwashing. You  can train to be a doctor. You can train (learn) to play an instrument. You can learn to be a better lover. But to train to be subservient??? What normal person trains to become inferior to another?
Or, am I wrong in my reading of all this? If so, please correct me.

Training...you aren't training someone to be subservient who isn't already desiring to do so, who doesn't already have a submissive mindset or desire...They ASK to do this....Then you train them or let them train themselves to do things that better their growth as people and as subs/slaves....you train them to do things the way you would want them to do them. Things that would better the relationship and them as people. Things that are the Dominants personal likes....i have been trained to cook the food the way my Master/Daddy wishes...to enjoy taking anal sex...to walk in painfully high heels...(amongst many other things) Now....i am trying to learn to accept pain...may sound odd to you but it makes sense to me....A Dominant can also help train out bad habits....i am very fearful of waaaay too many things and my Master/Daddy tries to train those things out of me and to replace them with the FREEDOM to live life without all these fears getting in the way.






probablyknowme -> RE: A lil introduction and some questions. (11/26/2007 11:00:18 AM)

Well, goodness, I have to say that your uninformed approach is better than most. Kudos to you for that. I have a lot of respect for someone who can "Hey, what is the attraction here?" without making judgements on my life choices, or the choices of the people that I love.

I am curious to know what you have found here that sickens you. I will probably never know, and that's fine. I think that if I were going to say anything to your reaction, it would be to offer up the quote that I was introduced to in the begining of my journey. "Your kink isn't my kink, and that's okay." Even now, much further along in my kinky life, I still find myself having to drag this statement back to the forground of my thoughts occasionally.

Now to address the power exchange aspect that you brought up. While you may or may not be interested in the Dominance/submission aspect of this lifestyle, I think that it is important for you to realize that there are some to whom this is a real need that they have for their life. For me personally, I identify my role as a submissive. Does that mean that I am that dreaded "doormat?" Oh my goodness, no! In fact, my submission makes me even more empowered to achieve the things that I want for my life. When I am no longer denying this real need I have, then the rest of my life can and does seem to flow much better. As for the ability to disagree with a Dominant, I have never been in a D/s relationship that I was unable to speak my mind...I just do it with more respect than most people not in this lifestyle do. I do have a life of my own, and my Dominant knows and respects that, as he understands that it makes me happy.

I hope that this gives you a little peek into what a relationship like this entails. Basically, I am just another woman, who loves men, I just show it differently.

Going to play with my crayons now,
kat



Stephann -> RE: A lil introduction and some questions. (11/26/2007 11:13:11 AM)

ORIGINAL: WhiteKnuckleRide

Hi, guys.

Howdy.

I'm really not sure how to start this post nor do I know if this is the right place to post. If in the wrong place, feel free to move.

It's fine here.

I registered with CollarMe on Saturday, not because I had an overwhelming urge to become someone's slave or master, but because I have a curious mind. To be honest, prior to joining, my definition of sub/dom was who went on top that night...how wrong I was!! :) My profile indicates that I'm a switch; in truth, I'm neither switch, nor sub, nor slave, nor master nor dom. I'm merely curious. I have to admit, tho, the deeper I look into your lifestyle, the more it intrigues me (from an intellectual angle). (I use the word 'your' consciously because, at present, it's not mine and it may never be.)

It's pretty interesting stuff, no question.  For the record, 'switch' is probably the best label for you, for a while.

Before I go on, a little about me. I'm single, male, straight, 35, live the northwest of England. I'm bright, curious, open-minded, adventurous, creative and...haven't got a clue what I wanna do with my life!!! :) I resent authority, like a challenge and I'm prone to act upon a whim.

I'm going to call you on that open-minded bit in a minute.

I value freedom higher than life itself.

Some of what I've read in this and other forums/sites has, frankly, sickened me-I'll address that later-but I do have a few general questions that I hope you can help with, to help me understand a bit more.

It's really not polite to say "what you guys do is sickening."  You admit ignorance, and that's a start, but if I were to walk into a church without understanding what I'm hearing, only to see people drinking red stuff from a goblet, and eating something white, and hear "body and blood of Jesus Christ" I certainly might be sickened, thinking "cannibalism!!!!"  I'd obviously be wrong.  To boot, to say "I'm curious about what you do, but I find it disgusting too" isn't a great way to establish yourself.

As far as I'm concerned, a healthy relationship is split 50/50 in terms of 'power'.

Perhaps we define power differently.  Perhaps you've never seen relationships where power isn't evenly split.  My slave actively gives me 100% authority over her life.  It's not because she is weak; if she had little power of her own, what she had wouldn't be very valuable would it?  Instead of having an even split of authority, we have an even split of importance.  I am just as important to her, as she is to me.  I love her, as much as she loves me.  She entrusts her well-being in my hands, and I am a caretaker of that well-being.  For us, this is balanced.

My relationships with 'doormats' (for want of a better word; girls who aren't prepared to make decisions or to argue back when they disagree with me; or girls who don't have opinions) have not lasted.

I've dated 'doormats' too.  I found them equally unsatisfying.  Owning a slave doesn't mean owning a weak, insecure person; it means owning a living, breathing, capable person with their own strengths.  It takes enormous strength for someone to surrender an otherwise healthy and happy life.

If I do something that my girlfriend (at the time) doesn't agree with, I want to know about it.

So do I.  The distinction here, is that it doesn't necessarily mean I am obligated to change what I am doing.  It means I do what I do, and accept the responsibility for my actions, fully aware that if I consistently, intentionally, and maliciously do things that harm my slave, eventually she's probably going to terminate her consent in our relationship and move on.

I also want someone who will say to me: "This is what *I'm* doing", occasionally.

That's great; such statements don't necessarily mean your relationship would be satisfying for me.  For the record, I do want to know if my slave wishes to do something different, or if she has a particular interest or taste.  I love her, value her, and take great pleasure in seeing her satisfied and healthy.

She needs to have a life away from me and so, when she's with me, I know it's her choice to be with me. :)

My slave got on her knees and begged to wear my collar.  I know that was her choice.  She chooses, every day, to continue to wear it (or at least to not revoke the consent she gave me.)  My submissive, on the other hand, wears no collar, and the very same words have come out of her mouth; she wants our relationship to be founded on her continued choice to be at my side, of her own will.  This doesn't make me less her dominant, nor does it negatively impact my authority over her.  It just illustrates that different people have different needs when it comes to relationships. 

At the same time, I can also appreciate that someone may need 'guidance' (again, for want of a better word) in life and, consequently, they need a strong partner. Someone to provide a big hug when the world gets crappy. I like/need hugs, too! :) 

This isn't exclusive to submissives, nor is it one sided.  I receive guidance, hugs, moral support, or just a shoulder to cry on when I need it too.

I can understand that. It might be that someone has an perpetual low self-esteem and so needs the reassurance of having someone there for them.  I don't agree with it but I can understand it. What I can't understand, and here is where I need your help, is how a supposedly sane person can be with someone who, for example, dictates what shampoo he or she can use or what clothes to wear.

Two issues; one, people with low self esteem still deserve love, fulfillment, and whatever quality of relationships they can establish.  There's no rule, law, or expectation that says people with low self esteem must fix it, before they date.  People with low self-esteem simply carry their own set of obstacles that can make healthy relationships difficult.

Two, your assumption that people who engage in power exchange relationships must have low self esteem is grossly mistaken.  I certainly wouldn't collar someone who's emotional baggage was heavier than I could carry.

This goes from being dominant to being something much more...hmmm, the word escapes me at present. I can't understand it from either side: the submissive who thinks this situation is normal and the dominant who insists that it happen. I'm not talking about roleplaying; I'm talking about the full-time relationships.

It doesn't have to make sense to you, to be healthy.  Related to our earlier example; it doesn't make sense to me that people  should expect chaste men who have never engaged in emotionally healthy romantic relationships with women could not only be expected, but indeed certified as marriage counselors. 

For our part, the dynamics of authority transfer is simple.  Both my slave, and my submissive enjoy very clear rules, boundaries, and thrives when there are expectations.  Without goals and objectives, they are more likely to spend their time and energy in directions that aren't satisfying to them; it's like if you don't decide what to eat for dinner until 8pm, you're more likely to settle for fast food or convenience meals.  If there is a clear objective that "we're having pasta and meatballs tonight" made at 10am, we're far more likely to have a healthy meal. 

My expectations on style and mode of dress are small steps that enable my slave to better realize who she is.  We don't live with my submissive, and even if we did, I don't believe she would enjoy the same degree of 'micromanaging' that the slave does.  Those are simply differing desires, no more no less.

Training? What is training? As far as I can see, training equals brainwashing.

Again, a strong suggestion that you attempt to word questions in a much less judgmental tone.  It suggests you have already made up your mind, and half-heartedly expect us to prove you otherwise.  It needn't be something you enjoy, desire, or expect, but that doesn't invalidate the impact it has on the people who enjoy it.

You  can train to be a doctor. You can train (learn) to play an instrument. You can learn to be a better lover.

Actually, becoming a better lover is, in fact, one of the aspects of my slave's training...

But to train to be subservient??? What normal person trains to become inferior to another?

This is the heart of your issue, I know.  Let me spell this out for you clearly.

My slave is not inferior to me.  My submissive is not inferior to me.  Submission does not equate with inferiority. 

charlotte and Tigrita are loved, valued, treasured, and deserve equal consideration for their place and meaning in my life.

Training simply is my way of saying "I care enough about my women, that I will show them how better to please me."  That goes hand in hand with me learning how better to ensure they also live healthy, satisfying, joyous lives.

Stephan



DesFIP -> RE: A lil introduction and some questions. (11/26/2007 11:21:46 AM)

You need an even balance of power, others don't. No different than you needing two sugars in your coffee to find it palatable while someone else finds that undrinkable. De gustabus non disputandem.

In intelligent people, different is not the same as wrong. You claim to value freedom highly, I use the word choice instead. I need to have choices, one of those choices is that I choose to follow him (mostly). If I think he's wrong, we discuss it. We rarely argue because neither of us enjoys arguing, we're quiet and calm people, boring even.

He never trained me to be subservient, I'm not. I'm of equal value, I am loved and cherished. How is that being subservient, inferior? He has trained me how he likes his tea; mint, two sugars, largest mug around.

I'm happier being one of the team and not the leader. I'm happier not having the ultimate responsibility for decision making. Decision making is difficult for me because I try to make everyone else happy at my own expense. In my D/s relationship this doesn't happen. Part of his decision making includes my happiness, he doesn't use me up and leave me empty.

Submissive to me means that I am happier making my loved ones happy instead of being purely selfish and doing things that I know will make my loved ones unhappy. My oldest has some disorders, including Sensory Integration Disorder, for her it works out that she can't tolerate highly spiced foods. I could decide to be selfish and order dinner from the new Indian place in town while knowing she would be unable to eat it and have to subsist on cereal for the night. Being a loving person, I call for Chinese and get her teriyaki chicken and white rice while the rest of us get chicken in garlic sauce.

As far as him saying "Hey honey, put on the red satin bikini panties today" goes, I interpret that as affection and good attention not as being a control freak. The fact that he likes me in them, and is willing to say that, to tell me that he wants me and wants to heighten my desirability to him by indulging his taste makes me happier and more aroused. Why wouldn't I want him to want me more? We're sexual people and it's a guilt free, non caloric pleasure.

My friends say that although this is a relatively new relationship, we appear to have worked out all the problems that they still, after twentysome years, argue about. They envy this in us. It's all because our needs are being met and our needs are being met because we took the time to figure out what they were.

As far as freedom, if you have the freedom to get up and leave then you lose the chance to commit. If you have the freedom to abandon your job and travel, you also have the freedom to starve on the streets when the money runs out. Unless of course, your freedom comes at someone else's cost. If you are irresponsible and don't pay court ordered support, your freedom comes at someone else going hungry.

Freedom sounds good, like Thoreau's Walden but most people I know are hypocritical about it. They choose irresponsibility but expect family to bail them out. Thoreau talked about civil disobedience but he allowed his aunt to pay the fine. He talked about hoeing his own bean field but walked into town most days to show up at meal times at family and friends. That's not freedom, it's irresponsibility in my book. It's selfishly indulging himself and demanding everyone else pick up the pieces. So who pays the price when you decide to abandon your responsibilities?



hisannabelle -> RE: A lil introduction and some questions. (11/26/2007 11:52:16 AM)

greetings whiteknuckleride,

i hope joining and reading some of our responses may give you more of an idea of what it is like for us. i hope at least that my experiences may shed some light on what it is like to desire the things you have mentioned. for background, i am a bisexual polyamorous slave in a 24/7 age gap relationship; we have been together for almost 2 years now and i was in one long distance m/s relationship before this. for us, our love and emotional connection is integral, and we are very committed to one another.

i believe a healthy relationship is one that fulfills and benefits each person in it. for you personally, that may mean a 50/50 power split. for many people, including myself, it does not. i have done normal relationships. i have done non-24/7 m/s. it's just not my thing; this is what is fulfilling to me. i am a slave - to have the freedom to be who i am all the time is what is healthy for me, in relationship.

i am not a doormat in the sense you mentioned; i frequently debate with my dominant (he's a republican and i'm a socialist, for starters), and i am opinionated and have my own life as well, which is how he wishes it to be. i work, i go to school, i have friends. i also have the freedom to date and have sex with others (well, actually, it's required and expected of me). heck, when he's being a jerk, i tell him he's being a jerk. (i may not always like the outcome, but sometimes he knows he needs to hear it.) many people might call me a doormat because i would do anything for him without question, and personally, i have no problem being a doormat. but that does not equate to lacking my own passion, mind, and life - those are things he treasures in me. and it was my choice to give up my consent in this relationship; that is all the choice he needs. he knows i have a full life and wants it that way (he gets sick of me sometimes anyway and he's not big on codependency).

i am a strong woman; i was raised to be a strong woman. being a slave, for me, is not about needing guidance, fixing myself, or reaching my full potential. there are some aspects of the relationship that could lend themselves to something like that, but it is not ABOUT those things. i don't need him to fix me, i don't need him to tell me how to change my bad habits, i don't need a guide to live my life - i am capable of having a fulfilling life and taking care of myself by myself. but i choose to give up my power to someone else. it's about being free to be who i am and to have that dynamic in my relationship - about having the ability to give myself up completely to someone and trust them to the degree that i am able to truly be property.

on the issue of sanity - i don't claim to be sane. i haven't been declared mentally incompetent by any legal body at present, but i have my share of physical and mental health issues, and i am coping quite well with them. i recognize that my wants, needs, and what i do are not necessarily healthy by many people's standards (even some in the lifestyle), and i don't expect that everyone else should have the same wants, needs, and actions that i do. now, my dominant does not choose to micromanage for the most part; occasionally he will dictate that i wear something or not use certain personal products (usually anything scented). at present he prefers that i manage my own schedule and finances, because i do a pretty good job of it and he's just not interested in dictating everything down to the last detail. but he certainly has that option if/when he chooses to exercise it. it is also helpful to me when he does it, because it allows me to know how better to please him, which is the point. i don't see it as going beyond being submissive; i'm his property, therefore everything that i do and everything about me and everything that belongs to me is his to do what he wishes with. the fact that i take good care of it for the present means he leaves some of the duties with me, but that doesn't mean that i have ultimate control over them.

personally, i have never understood the idea of training all that well myself; i think that what needs to be taught in relationships will differ depending on the people in it. for us, if there is something he wants me to learn or do, i do it as we go along; we don't really think about things in a training sense, as such (things like mannerisms - speaking, sitting, etc.). i am also not inferior to him, necessarily; i'm just a slave to him. being a slave doesn't mean i'm intellectually, physically, or otherwise inferior...i believe he would probably consider me his equal in those senses. but i have chosen to give up my freedom to him because that is who i am as a person.

i hope my viewpoint helps you to understand...if you'd like to discuss more or have questions, i am always available by message on the other side.

respectfully,
annabelle.



astarri -> RE: A lil introduction and some questions. (11/26/2007 11:54:06 AM)

Great answers Stephann. You speak very well on your dynamics and your girls and you are very lucky to have found eachother.

To the OP i really am unable to expand upon the responses that you already have although i do wish to interject that many find the freedom to be who they are in this kind of relationship.Not everyone fits into the box that society says is acceptable. Don't hit a lady becomes confusing when your girl wants a spanking during sex.

In vanilla relationships there are punishments and rewards for behaviour ...hell in general life there is. Here the rewards and punishments are more structured than in vanilla relationships... take for example if you work at a business and they say if you acheive this level of excellence in this time we will give you a promotion and raise as opposed to working somewhere where there may be these incentives but they are not spoken about leaving you to wonder how it is that you can best obtain your reward.




charlotte12 -> RE: A lil introduction and some questions. (11/26/2007 12:04:58 PM)

Welcome to collarme.

I appreciate your desire to learn and your willingness to express how you feel in an attempt to get people's opinions. I am going to assume that this post is made with the honest intent to learn from people you do not yet understand and speak from my experience.

I see many people appalled by the thought of a submissive wanting to serve another. (i will be speaking from the submissive female's perspective as that is my own.) I always appreciate the thought behind the instinct to rush in and protect these submissives who should be made aware of their own self-worth however i see this "rescue attempt" as completely skewed. It seems to me that to judge someone for how they wish to express themselves is in fact treating them with less respect than the person who is embracing fully who they are.

That said, unless someone understands the motivations behind submission this is not an easy stance to take. So for me i will simply say that i do not feel inferior to my Master at all! I find strength and confidence in serving him and am finding that some of the qualities i used to dislike about myself are fading away as i strive to be the best slave i can be (as cherry mentioned about bringing up needs in a way that was bratty.) Certainly micromanaging someone's life who finds this sort of interaction to be draining would be fruitless and destructive. But just as some people resent authority (as stated by you) and enjoy making their own rules others enjoy the structure and security of having rules laid out for them. To say that one is better or worse is to say that all humans must be the same.....men must be better than women or vice versa because only one right can exist in this world.

I know that i find myself doing better in all aspects of my life when certain areas are controlled. I do not enjoy making decisions and so when somenoe else makes them for me i am able to apply my passion and talents to the decision and come out with a much better result than if i had spent days anxiously stressing about what i should do.

So i would suggest meeting some submissives and slaves. Talk to them and see if they seem like meek and self-conscious people. I had much of the same skepticism that you had when i first approached this lifestyle so i have confidence that if you continue to seek understanding with an open mind (and perhaps a slightly less disgusted attitude) you will find that there is great depth and strength of character in submissives just as often as Dominants.

Not that lifestylers are more intelligent or better than vanillas. But we are simply one spectrum of society filled with our own jack-asses, doormats and troubled folk as well as enlightened and truly inspiring people. You'll find Doms and subs who are assholes or brats but this is generally not because of their orientation. You'll find just as much variety in the vanilla population.
good luck in your discovery.



SimplyMichael -> RE: A lil introduction and some questions. (11/26/2007 12:19:12 PM)

Doing any relationship for the betterment of those involved requires that you find partner with whom you share goals and support each other in reaching those goals.

Sounds pretty lofty but when you look at details, it gets murky.

A husband who goes to college while the wife works some menial job and then goes on to develop a career while the wife stays home and takes care of the kids is a great example.  For some, this would be bliss, others a nightmare.  However, only an idiot would say it was one or the other for everyone. 

Timing is another issue.  What is right at one point in your life might be wrong another.  Sleeping around isn't a good or bad thing in and of itself but if you do it when you are married, it is a bad thing .  So having certain types of bdsm relationships are also better some times in your life than others.

The point of bdsm is to allow people a venue to explore who and what they are in a way society in general does not allow.  Men are still broadly expected to be the bread winners, the women to have the secondary career or stay at home, and for people to be monogamous.    We challenge any and all assumptions.

My relationship is different than many even in the bdsm world, this one is different than my other relationships.  However, it is nurturing to both of us even though we do things that would shock the hell out of the OP and do it in ways that would shock many here.

For me, being locked inside of a rigid role would be horrifying because it isn't me, for some here, that is their goal with strictly delineated lines of control.  My relationship is much more fluid and that works for us.  I like to play  nurturing daddy most of the time, but I also like to be babied and taken care of sometimes.  It took me a long time to find what it is I need, then I had to find how to meet those needs, then I had to find someone who could and would meet those needs.    THAT is what bdsm is to me although listening to some woman moan in a mixture of pain and pleasure in the next room at a party isn't bad either.



MasterFireMaam -> RE: A lil introduction and some questions. (11/26/2007 1:27:05 PM)

The blockage you have here is that you are assuming that anyone who is willing to had over authority to another MUST, by definition, be a doormat and an unhealthy adult. When you can get past that, you'll have a much more open mind about how we fit together like jigsaw pieces.

Master Fire



sexyone4you -> RE: A lil introduction and some questions. (11/26/2007 1:28:04 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stephann

ORIGINAL: WhiteKnuckleRide

Hi, guys.

Howdy.

I'm really not sure how to start this post nor do I know if this is the right place to post. If in the wrong place, feel free to move.

It's fine here.

I registered with CollarMe on Saturday, not because I had an overwhelming urge to become someone's slave or master, but because I have a curious mind. To be honest, prior to joining, my definition of sub/dom was who went on top that night...how wrong I was!! :) My profile indicates that I'm a switch; in truth, I'm neither switch, nor sub, nor slave, nor master nor dom. I'm merely curious. I have to admit, tho, the deeper I look into your lifestyle, the more it intrigues me (from an intellectual angle). (I use the word 'your' consciously because, at present, it's not mine and it may never be.)

It's pretty interesting stuff, no question.  For the record, 'switch' is probably the best label for you, for a while.

Before I go on, a little about me. I'm single, male, straight, 35, live the northwest of England. I'm bright, curious, open-minded, adventurous, creative and...haven't got a clue what I wanna do with my life!!! :) I resent authority, like a challenge and I'm prone to act upon a whim.

I'm going to call you on that open-minded bit in a minute.

I value freedom higher than life itself.

Some of what I've read in this and other forums/sites has, frankly, sickened me-I'll address that later-but I do have a few general questions that I hope you can help with, to help me understand a bit more.

It's really not polite to say "what you guys do is sickening."  You admit ignorance, and that's a start, but if I were to walk into a church without understanding what I'm hearing, only to see people drinking red stuff from a goblet, and eating something white, and hear "body and blood of Jesus Christ" I certainly might be sickened, thinking "cannibalism!!!!"  I'd obviously be wrong.  To boot, to say "I'm curious about what you do, but I find it disgusting too" isn't a great way to establish yourself.

As far as I'm concerned, a healthy relationship is split 50/50 in terms of 'power'.

Perhaps we define power differently.  Perhaps you've never seen relationships where power isn't evenly split.  My slave actively gives me 100% authority over her life.  It's not because she is weak; if she had little power of her own, what she had wouldn't be very valuable would it?  Instead of having an even split of authority, we have an even split of importance.  I am just as important to her, as she is to me.  I love her, as much as she loves me.  She entrusts her well-being in my hands, and I am a caretaker of that well-being.  For us, this is balanced.

My relationships with 'doormats' (for want of a better word; girls who aren't prepared to make decisions or to argue back when they disagree with me; or girls who don't have opinions) have not lasted.

I've dated 'doormats' too.  I found them equally unsatisfying.  Owning a slave doesn't mean owning a weak, insecure person; it means owning a living, breathing, capable person with their own strengths.  It takes enormous strength for someone to surrender an otherwise healthy and happy life.

If I do something that my girlfriend (at the time) doesn't agree with, I want to know about it.

So do I.  The distinction here, is that it doesn't necessarily mean I am obligated to change what I am doing.  It means I do what I do, and accept the responsibility for my actions, fully aware that if I consistently, intentionally, and maliciously do things that harm my slave, eventually she's probably going to terminate her consent in our relationship and move on.

I also want someone who will say to me: "This is what *I'm* doing", occasionally.

That's great; such statements don't necessarily mean your relationship would be satisfying for me.  For the record, I do want to know if my slave wishes to do something different, or if she has a particular interest or taste.  I love her, value her, and take great pleasure in seeing her satisfied and healthy.

She needs to have a life away from me and so, when she's with me, I know it's her choice to be with me. :)

My slave got on her knees and begged to wear my collar.  I know that was her choice.  She chooses, every day, to continue to wear it (or at least to not revoke the consent she gave me.)  My submissive, on the other hand, wears no collar, and the very same words have come out of her mouth; she wants our relationship to be founded on her continued choice to be at my side, of her own will.  This doesn't make me less her dominant, nor does it negatively impact my authority over her.  It just illustrates that different people have different needs when it comes to relationships. 

At the same time, I can also appreciate that someone may need 'guidance' (again, for want of a better word) in life and, consequently, they need a strong partner. Someone to provide a big hug when the world gets crappy. I like/need hugs, too! :) 

This isn't exclusive to submissives, nor is it one sided.  I receive guidance, hugs, moral support, or just a shoulder to cry on when I need it too.

I can understand that. It might be that someone has an perpetual low self-esteem and so needs the reassurance of having someone there for them.  I don't agree with it but I can understand it. What I can't understand, and here is where I need your help, is how a supposedly sane person can be with someone who, for example, dictates what shampoo he or she can use or what clothes to wear.

Two issues; one, people with low self esteem still deserve love, fulfillment, and whatever quality of relationships they can establish.  There's no rule, law, or expectation that says people with low self esteem must fix it, before they date.  People with low self-esteem simply carry their own set of obstacles that can make healthy relationships difficult.

Two, your assumption that people who engage in power exchange relationships must have low self esteem is grossly mistaken.  I certainly wouldn't collar someone who's emotional baggage was heavier than I could carry.

This goes from being dominant to being something much more...hmmm, the word escapes me at present. I can't understand it from either side: the submissive who thinks this situation is normal and the dominant who insists that it happen. I'm not talking about roleplaying; I'm talking about the full-time relationships.

It doesn't have to make sense to you, to be healthy.  Related to our earlier example; it doesn't make sense to me that people  should expect chaste men who have never engaged in emotionally healthy romantic relationships with women could not only be expected, but indeed certified as marriage counselors. 

For our part, the dynamics of authority transfer is simple.  Both my slave, and my submissive enjoy very clear rules, boundaries, and thrives when there are expectations.  Without goals and objectives, they are more likely to spend their time and energy in directions that aren't satisfying to them; it's like if you don't decide what to eat for dinner until 8pm, you're more likely to settle for fast food or convenience meals.  If there is a clear objective that "we're having pasta and meatballs tonight" made at 10am, we're far more likely to have a healthy meal. 

My expectations on style and mode of dress are small steps that enable my slave to better realize who she is.  We don't live with my submissive, and even if we did, I don't believe she would enjoy the same degree of 'micromanaging' that the slave does.  Those are simply differing desires, no more no less.

Training? What is training? As far as I can see, training equals brainwashing.

Again, a strong suggestion that you attempt to word questions in a much less judgmental tone.  It suggests you have already made up your mind, and half-heartedly expect us to prove you otherwise.  It needn't be something you enjoy, desire, or expect, but that doesn't invalidate the impact it has on the people who enjoy it.

You  can train to be a doctor. You can train (learn) to play an instrument. You can learn to be a better lover.

Actually, becoming a better lover is, in fact, one of the aspects of my slave's training...

But to train to be subservient??? What normal person trains to become inferior to another?

This is the heart of your issue, I know.  Let me spell this out for you clearly.

My slave is not inferior to me.  My submissive is not inferior to me.  Submission does not equate with inferiority. 

charlotte and Tigrita are loved, valued, treasured, and deserve equal consideration for their place and meaning in my life.

Training simply is my way of saying "I care enough about my women, that I will show them how better to please me."  That goes hand in hand with me learning how better to ensure they also live healthy, satisfying, joyous lives.

Stephan


That is a great response.  Very elloquently put. 



Tigrita -> RE: A lil introduction and some questions. (11/26/2007 2:31:51 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: WhiteKnuckleRide
I value freedom higher than life itself.

So do I.  My submission comes from a place of freedom.  To me, the beauty of submitting to someone I respect is that it is a choice I make.  A very demanding and challenging, intense, and intimate choice to trust someone with the deepest, darkest parts of me, and to trust and love the deepest, darkest parts of them.  That I could leave if I wasn't strong enough, or in love enough, or loved enough, or respected enough to stay and give and take that beautiful and dangerous fervor that we share, and I choose every time to stay, to be there, and to come back for more.  This is not everyone's perspective, some revel in the chain and collar, the captivity, being owned as human property, I can't speak for them because this isn't my perspective, but I know many happy, healthy, fulfilled, strong, secure people with high self esteme who feel that way. 

quote:

As far as I'm concerned, a healthy relationship is split 50/50 in terms of 'power'. ... If I do something that my girlfriend (at the time) doesn't agree with, I want to know about it.

One reason I think D/s works well for many is that it prevents petty power struggles and encourages respectful communication, like cherry said.  Instead of being snippy and condescending which is so easy when you get annoyed, it encourages respectful, non-hostile communication on both sides.  When I've been in a relationship that deteriorated to that on both sides, I realized, looking back, that I'm happier when a certain level of reverent respect is maintained.  In vanilla, someone does something annoying, someone gets passive agressive, someone gets condescending, someone gets snippy... it escalates from there.  In D/s, whoever starts that cycle, man or woman, dominant or submissive, it stops imediately because of the power exchange.  Bratty submissive gets disciplined and/or is required to communicate respectfully.  Bratty dominant gets respectfully addressed or the slight offense is shrugged off and not dwelled on and confronted hostily.  No petty fight, no escalation. 

That said, communication is vitally important in D/s.  All the sucessful D/s relationships I'm familiar with, the s-types speak their minds, respectfully.  And issues are adressed, respectfully.  No screaming fights, no blame games.  Personally, this is the most openly communicative relationship I've ever been in, and I'm not afraid to bring anything, even the very hardest, potentially deal-breaking things up with Stephan.  Walls and hiding feelings are not allowed. 

quote:

I also want someone who will say to me: "This is what *I'm* doing", occasionally. She needs to have a life away from me and so, when she's with me, I know it's her choice to be with me. :)

What better way to know it is someone's choice to be with you than to beat the shit out of them and watch them come back for more?  Kidding asside, I feel much the same way you do about relationships, and Stephan loves that I have a very active life including multiple sports, several different groups of friends, and other BDSMers who I explore certain kinks with that he is not as experienced or interested in.  He knows I'm not healthy and happy without a full, diverse life like that, and he wants his girl healthy and happy!  Some do like to keep their submissives totally under their thumb, and they find submissives who enjoy that feeling.  It is all about compatibility. 

Stephan could order me to drop plans and spend time with him instead, but he may be facing a very unhappy girl and he weighs that in his decision.  Rather, it could also make me realize how important it is to him to sepend time together at that time, because I know he wouldn't ask me to give something up just for a whim.  Just because a dominant has the power and authority to exercise control, doesn't mean they do it haphazardly and destructively, or that the submissive isn't fulfilled by that dynamic.  

quote:

...someone may need 'guidance' ... It might be that someone has an perpetual low self-esteem and so needs the reassurance of having someone there for them. ...

Low self esteem? Phooey.  If anything, I'm an arrogant beotch with a superiority complex.  (half joking) I don't need guidance, I'm ecstatically happy when I'm single and being quite in control of my life, my faculties, and my interactions.  But what I crave when I'm single, is someone who can break down my walls, all that composure and control, rev up my passions to a point that I simply can't control it myself, but that they have the strength to control.  I simply want to feel someone stronger than myself physically, intellectually, emotionally... and that is a pretty tall order ;)  As far as micromanaging, yeah, I don't really get that.  To each their own.  But I like to wear what I know he likes, and do my hair the way I know he likes, just to know that I'm doing what I can to make him smile. 

quote:

Training? What is training?

Like someone already said, it is about learning to do something in a way that pleases your partner most.  WhiteKnuckle, have you ever showed or at least told a girlfriend exactly how you like your coffee, or how to get the tense spots on you shoulders just right, or maybe she even asked you herself because she wanted to know, so she could make you smile and make your day easier?  Same exact thing.  Just applies to more aspects of life when a submissive seriously gets her jollies and fulfillment in seeing her dominant pleased.  It is kind of that motherly type of personality trait that gets super happy to do things and make sacrifices for people she loves.  Different couples take it to different levels based on their mutual enjoyment of that dynamic.  About the only things I'm being trained for are deep-throat cock sucking, and orgasming on command; Charlotte gets a lot more for service stuff because that fulfills her and him, but it would be likely to annoy me and make me unhappy.  I'm fulfilled through my training because it makes me feel closer to him, more valuable to him, I enjoy pleasing him, and I also enjoy challenging myself both for myself and for him.  And back to 50/50 vs. power exchange, dominants learn a lot about their submissives needs and desires too, and do very well to fulfill them and do special things for them, it is just structured differently, simply because we like it that way. 

Hope that helps! 

Hehe, you haven't even touched on S&M, I have a feeling that may be the sickening part, saving up for round 2 hehe.  It is pretty hard to wrap your head around at first, just keep your open mind and ask questions respectfully.

Note: Stephann is my dominant, and Charlotte12's master, so you're getting 3 sides of the coin here in a consistent context, and you can see we really do like being with that cruel, mean, scary, sadistic SOB   =)



charlotte12 -> RE: A lil introduction and some questions. (11/26/2007 2:55:37 PM)

[:D]

Wonderfully put of course. Especially the last bit [;)]



Dari -> RE: A lil introduction and some questions. (11/26/2007 3:55:19 PM)

First, Stephann, Charlotte, and Tigrita have some excellent points.  You could do a lot worse than to listen very carefully to what they're telling you.  Now, some points about which I feel strongly.

quote:

I value freedom higher than life itself.


I wonder what makes you think we don't?  And I wonder how you define freedom - I'd wager it's a pretty narrow definition.

So many people today don't feel free to be themselves.  They feel like they have to live up to societal ideals and norms, what is polite, what is expected, what is popular, what is required.  But not everyone fits the "norms" - since everyone is different, doesn't it also follow that we all have different needs and desires?  Of vast importance to me is making sure that everyone who serves me has the freedom to be wholly themselves, just as I can continue to be wholly myself.  That kind of freedom is of more importance to me than making sure that my actions fit societal mores.

quote:

As far as I'm concerned, a healthy relationship is split 50/50 in terms of 'power'.


That's how you define your needs in your relationships.  That's fine.  Who died and made you God, to decide what is "healthy" and what is not, for everyone on the planet?  Last I checked, each of us has the responsibility for deciding what makes a healthy relationship for ourselves and no one else.  Then the trick is finding someone (or multiple someones) whose needs complement ours.  If you're really open-minded, then you should at least be able to accept that what you define as healthy is not what others define as healthy.

quote:

My relationships with 'doormats' (for want of a better word; girls who aren't prepared to make decisions or to argue back when they disagree with me; or girls who don't have opinions) have not lasted. If I do something that my girlfriend (at the time) doesn't agree with, I want to know about it. I also want someone who will say to me: "This is what *I'm* doing", occasionally. She needs to have a life away from me and so, when she's with me, I know it's her choice to be with me. :)


As another Domme I know says in her profile - I want to know the wishes and desires of my submissives, so I can choose to ignore them! 

All kidding aside - not all submissives are doormats.  And not all doormats have low self-esteem.  Both of my submissives have the freedom to express anything they like to me.  Now, that doesn't always come without consequences - but that's another topic, really - but I do encourage them to speak their mind.  One of my submissives is likely someone you would consider a "doormat;" he's quiet, generally soft-spoken, and doesn't really express opinions without prodding (non-physical!) for the most part.  The other is very outspoken, and more than a little bratty.  Both of them have varied interests and things that they enjoy doing, both with and without me - but their preferred activity is making me happy by their service, no matter which of their hobbies (or mine) that entails.  I know at each moment we're together that they have made the conscious choice to be with me - because at any moment they can choose to leave as well. 

quote:

At the same time, I can also appreciate that someone may need 'guidance' (again, for want of a better word) in life and, consequently, they need a strong partner. Someone to provide a big hug when the world gets crappy. I like/need hugs, too! :) I can understand that. It might be that someone has an perpetual low self-esteem and so needs the reassurance of having someone there for them. I don't agree with it but I can understand it.


I'm getting from this that you think being a Dom(me) equates to being "the strong one", the one who gives hugs and comfort when things go wrong, and is there for perpetual reassurance of their submissive.

That's very silly.

I like hugs and comfort when things go wrong.  My subs are like big teddy bears when the world goes awry, and they're there when I need someone to talk to, or someone to cuddle with.  That's part of being a caring friend - and has nothing to do with BDSM, really.  I'm a strong woman, but I'll be honest with you - my subs are equally strong, just in different ways.

It takes as much strength to submit as it does to dominate.  I won't go into all the details here, because you can get that from reading the boards.  But stop thinking about subs as weak, and doms as strong.  Subs give their will to another - by choice - but it takes a strength of will to make that choice, to have the courage to know yourself well enough to know your true needs, and to seek a way to fulfill that, which I rarely see in the vanilla world.

quote:

What I can't understand, and here is where I need your help, is how a supposedly sane person can be with someone who, for example, dictates what shampoo he or she can use or what clothes to wear. This goes from being dominant to being something much more...hmmm, the word escapes me at present. I can't understand it from either side: the submissive who thinks this situation is normal and the dominant who insists that it happen. I'm not talking about roleplaying; I'm talking about the full-time relationships.


Just because you can't understand it, doesn't make it wrong.  Don't question the sanity of people who hate making decisions.  Some of them TRULY hate making decisions - but they absolutely excel in other areas.  A slave may never get to choose what to make for dinner - but do an incredible job making what is chosen.  How is that insane, or weak, or (as your tone seems to suggest) horrifying or despicable?  Some people make awful decisions on a regular basis.  They don't like it, they don't want to decide on things - but they live their lives just fine, and bring life and joy into the world by doing what they do well.

quote:

Training? What is training? As far as I can see, training equals brainwashing. You can train to be a doctor. You can train (learn) to play an instrument. You can learn to be a better lover. But to train to be subservient??? What normal person trains to become inferior to another?
Or, am I wrong in my reading of all this? If so, please correct me.


Have you ever been to a five-star restaurant?  Do you think those waiters or waitresses just show up and have all the skills needed to make your dining experience exceptional?  Of course not - they've been trained.  In some, the need to be submissive is like an inborn talent, that needs to be honed and practiced and, yes, trained - and they go from being a good submissive, to a great one.

That being said - my submissives are not inferior to me.  They are equal in different ways.  And I'll thank you to stop throwing around the word "normal" like it's some holy grail.  I stopped looking for "normal" years ago, as did most of us around here.  Mostly, we look for healthy, happy relationships that satisfy the needs of everyone involved.

You would be better served to really look at the effects of the relationships here on the people involved, before making judgment calls about normalcy and sanity.

That being said - welcome to the board.





porkchop -> RE: A lil introduction and some questions. (11/26/2007 4:20:47 PM)

The OP's question concerning training reminded me of something I wrote in my journal/a yahoo! group earlier this year.  (I used to beat my head against that one, too.)

Since I'm a Southern Belle transplanted in the desert, I can't make a point without telling a story... here it is:

Goals, Objectives, Performance, Results 05.27.2007

Before joining Sir’s family a year and a half ago, M/s was a mere shapeless blob existing somewhere “out there” in the periphery.  The concept of training within an M/s relationship was even less clear.  Sure, all the various types of orgasm training have been done to death, but who talks about the daily grind stuff?  Not to mention, what the hell does “service” MEAN?!

I had visions of athletic training.  The coach and trainee are there wearing activewear and surrounded by all the appropriate equipment.  “Gonna Fly Now” (the theme from “Rocky”) plays in my head whenever conversations about training take place.  I imagined Sir wearing a whistle and a stopwatch with various obstacle courses set up throughout the house, with moments from “My Fair Lady” thrown in for good measure.

Wouldn’t It Be Loverly?

Since we don’t live on a movie set, I’m settling into something closer to reality.

Last night during a serious family conversation about other things, I received some great feedback concerning my progress.  One of my biggest challenges in settling into life in Sir’s house was managing my tone and choice of verbiage.  I was completely unaware of how I sounded, as no one had ever called me on it before.  I took the [previous] feedback to heart, and as a result over the last several months we've not had to experience another one of those “WTF did you just say?!” moments.

Thus far, the experience has been most like “on the job training”.  It’s not uncommon for me to receive instruction as things happen.  Learning by doing works well for me, as does having an example to follow.

Things are coming into focus and I’m beginning to “get it”.  Choosing not to languish in stagnation, I asked for MORE.  Based on past Performance, I’ve been given additional responsibilities.

I’ve discovered training is sneaky.  If I don’t pause to reflect on progress, I tend not to notice it has actually taken place.   Oooh- I think my Objective just got an addendum…

My training experience thus far: working toward being the best *me* I can be in order to be an asset to Sir's family.

It's *still* sneaky.  








WhiteKnuckleRide -> RE: A lil introduction and some questions. (11/26/2007 4:37:08 PM)

Thanks to all who've replied. There's quite a lot to take in and I still have to admit to not understanding. Perhaps if I browse these forums and read more, it'll come to me. Or perhaps not. :)

There are a few comments I'd like to address; hopefully, you can clarify or correct:

camille65: Btw, I really like your screen name, it made me smile.

I've no idea where the name came from, it just popped into my head but I'm glad it had that affect on you. :)

midnightwench: Please don't take this the wrong way but your relationship with your Dom sounds exactly like the relationship we have with our cats and dogs. I genuinely canot see any difference. They don't ask for much; they want feeding when they're hungry; they want a roof over their heads and somewhere warm to sleep when it's cold; they want walkies, they want to play and they want being shown they're loved by having some attention lavished upon them. If they step out of line, they're disciplined. 99% of the time they're all fantastic; sometimes, like when they've just chewed holes in a full tub of wood glue and it's leaked all over your newly-laid carpet(!!!), y'could kill 'em!! :P

Have I got it completely wrong?

Also, regarding the training, you say: if our Dom likes a certain type of food we may train to learn to cook it better. 

I like to co...I love to cook, for both myself and others. If I'm trying a new recipe, I tend to cook it for myself first, to see how it turns out. If I'm cooking for others and I mess it up, I mess it up. If anyone 'complains', I say to them, with a smile, "Yours will have been the one that fell on the floor!!". Or similar. :) If I know one of them's a veggie, I don't give them steak; that's just common-curtesy, I don't have to be trained. :) Likewise, you say you're 'trained' to get over your fears or to do housework better-why do you need to be 'trained'. Surely, these are life-skills that everyone learns? Perhaps I'm getting hung up on this word trained. If I'm in a relationship, I don't need to be trained to do anything. With familiarity, I know what my girlfriend likes and dislikes; I can then choose to respect her wishes or not. If she's a veggie, I don't serve her meat. Nor would I expect her to cook meat for me if she'd rather not. But, if it was that she didn't like the shoes I'm wearing and insisted I didn't, I'd go out and buy another pair...exactly the same. :) I hope you see my point and you can perhaps understand why I find it difficult to understand your role. :)

thedark: Some fair points. One, in particular, I will correct you on. You say:

There is much in what you state that seems very - media fed?

Wrong! :P Most of what I've based my questions and observations on have come from this forum. As I said earlier, prior to registering my definition of a sub/dom relationship was who was on top that night. I meant it almost literally. :D

daddyncherry: From what i know of M/s relationships it seems that the larger portion of the Dominants don't choose to micromanage (tell them what to wear etc.) There are Dominants who like to do that and subs/slaves who respond very well to it. Just as in the work place or in school certain types need more insturuction and over seeing.

The analogy makes it a little clearer. :)

kat: "Your kink isn't my kink, and that's okay." It's very apt and something that can be applied to all areas of life. :)

Stephan: It's really not polite to say "what you guys do is sickening.". Fair play. I'm not always known for my tact, tho!! :)

Perhaps you've never seen relationships where power isn't evenly split. I've been in them, hence my mention of doomats. They stifled me.

...it doesn't necessarily mean I am obligated to change what I am doing. True in any relationship. The trouble I have is understanding how and why people tolerate it. Again, that's in any relationship. The woman who 'loves' her husband, even though he beats her.

I do want to know if my slave wishes to do something different, or if she has a particular interest or taste.  I love her, value her, and take great pleasure in seeing her satisfied and healthy. Out of curiosity, what would happen if she wanted to do something that you didn't want her to do?

Two, your assumption that people who...   What assumption?

Training simply is my way of saying "I care enough about my women, that I will show them how better to please me."  Again, perhaps I'm getting too hung up on the wording you use but this, to me, conjures up images of you sat there in your arm-chair, watching the footy, beer in hand, while one girl services you with her mouth and the other runs around in a french maids outfit, duster in hand. :)
I'm probably way off the mark. :)

DesFIP: He has trained me how he likes his tea; mint, two sugars, largest mug around. It's this word 'trained' again, that I just don't understand. I don't drink tea or coffee but I know what my mates drink. I serve it to them because I know they like it that way, not because I've been trained to serve them.. Sometimes, I'll offer and then say to them,"Right, you know where it is." and leave 'em to it. In the same way, they know that a drink, to me, is juice. Not pop, not water, not tea or coffee. Juice of some description.
Out of curiosity, what would happen if you gave him chamomile tea, 6 sugars, in a thimble? :)
I suppose what I'm trying to establish is what 'punishment' is and why it would be administered?

annabelle: i believe a healthy relationship is one that fulfills and benefits each person in it.
So very true. :D

heck, when he's being a jerk, i tell him he's being a jerk. (i may not always like the outcome,...) What are the possible outcomes?

i also have the freedom to date and have sex with others (well, actually, it's required and expected of me). Required by whom and why?


personally, i have never understood the idea of training all that well myself  YAAAAAY, an ally!!!! :D

astarri: In vanilla relationships there are punishments and rewards for behaviour. Agreed, but it seems to me that in a sub/dom relationship, it's the dom that sets them both. In a vanilla relationship, the punishments are generally unspoken (if you're unfaithful, I'll leave you) or, if there's a specific concern, they're discussed (give up the drugs or I'll shop you (and then leave you)) :)

charlotte12: a lot of what you say makes sense. :)

SimplyMichael: you make quite a few references to BDSM. Are sub/dom (and similar) relationships all about sex. To me, BDSM is purely sexual. You enjoy X, Y and Z and it stops once you pull your pants back up. Sub/dom relationships appear to be more than sexual and don't necessarily stop. I see them as 2 distinct and separate activities.

Regarding the above questions, I've asked them to (hopefully) clarify certain points that I'm still unclear about. I don't mean any offence by them, nor do I mean to specifically single anyone out, it's only that that particular person raises a specific point. :S

OK, my turn now...what sickened me? It was a post that I read on this forum. In essence, the male dom forbade the female to wipe herself with toilet paper because '...he didn't like the little white bits that sometimes remained afterwards.'
One bloke dictated which tampons the woman should use.
Others have said 'don't use X shampoo, or Y product'
"Master does not allow me to wear ..." "I'm not allowed to wear..."

I can understand if a person said "I'd appreciate it if you didn't wear...because I'm allergic to it." or "I'm not keen on that." but these are people forbidding others not to do/use/wear something because 'I don't like it'...and that repulses me to the core. And I make no apologies for it.

Thanks again, Neill



midnightwench -> RE: A lil introduction and some questions. (11/26/2007 4:46:29 PM)

Hmm same as a cat or a dog? maybe that is why my former master took me to get spayed [:D]

What you are describing in your post of doing things that your mate likes is what we call training in many ways. I think you are getting hung up on the lingo, but that may be just me.

It is hard for a person to describe what their relationship is to another. I have tried for years to do such. All I can say is that I enjoy the power exchange that is given in this type of a relationship. The ability to shrug off the duties that I have to take on each day, into the safe loving arms of my Dom.

I do hope you find someone who can explain better to you.

As for some of the things that you mentioned that sicken you, I can't say that I am that far off on some of them...but as in any relationship it is up to the two people to decide what they wish to do in it. There are doormats and wannabe's  in the lifestyle... just like their are players in a vanilla relationship. Try not to view us all in the same light.

Best of luck with your search..
wench



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