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RE: Elitism in BDSM/Ds/WIITWD - 8/12/2005 11:47:13 AM   
BlkTallFullfig


Posts: 5585
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Padriag
Why does elitism occur... the short answer is its an overcompensation for a feeling of inferiority or insecurity. Yes I just called all those elitist snobs insecure. It is true none-the-less.

Consider that the various kinks we indulge in as part of this style of life are generally taboo and something mainstream society doesn't accept and at times condemns. That means that for every one of use who chooses to pursue this style of life we have to step outside societies boundaries. That act alone can make a lot of people feel pretty insecure. One of the things society does for most people is give them a sense of place, of belonging, a sense that who you are and what you do is okay. When you step outside of what society accepts you contradict that, and if you aren't a very self secure person, you're going to feel the pressure of it and end up battling insecurity. That insecurity comes from having to define all those things for yourself that normally you could drawn on society for.

Here's another example. Stop and think for a moment about the kinds of differences people discriminate against others about. I'm betting just looking at things where you live, you can think of a very long list without much trouble. Things like race, gender, religion, politics, ideology, sexual orientation, clothing styles, music preferences, jobs, economic status, where you live, it just goes on and on.

All of that boils down to a "Us vs. Them" mentality that has been part of the human psyche for as long as there have been human beings. As human beings we are drawn to those most like us (birds of a feather flock together), and we tend to be suspicious of and hostile towards those unlike us.

So to sum up... you have elitism in the "BDSM Community" even towards its own members because some folks are feeling insecure about what they are doing. To overcompensate they work very, very hard to convince themselves what they are doing is right, "the one true way", regardless of what anyone (society) says. Unfortunately that makes them pretty intolerant of someone doing something differently than their "one true way". They get even harsher towards THEM... you know... Vanilla's... because its ultimately "vanilla" aka mainstream society that is the greatest source of their insecurity.

It takes courage to face the unknown, to face what you fear, to face others differences without reacting with hostility or fear. Ghandi said something particularly poignant about this.
quote:

Courage is the one sure foundation of character. Without courage there can be no morality, no religion, no love. One cannot follow truth or love so long as one is subject to fear.
Elitism and intolerance, in whatever form you find them, are born of fear and insecurity. It takes courage in one to overcome it... it takes encouragement for others for them to overcome it, and there can be no encouragement without courage.
I was having this very conversation with one of my sisters last night (only not stated as nicely as you did here. I'll show up, take this pop quizz and pass it. I loved reading it. Thanks. M

_____________________________

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""Touching was, and still is, and will always be, the true revolution" Nikki Giovanni

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RE: Elitism in BDSM/Ds/WIITWD - 8/12/2005 12:07:29 PM   
Angrylibrarian


Posts: 214
Joined: 8/10/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: pinkpleasures

Elitism is close to bigotry or mysoginy or xenophobia..maybe not as offensive on its face but in my book just as bad for the harm done to the class described as "lesser". Padraig is right -- it is a temptation to anyone and some people cannot resist because they need to describe an "elite class" which they belong to support a poor self-esteem. Personally, i think this also gives rise to mysoginy and xenophobia. This is pretty close to why some people act like bullies, though that's a bit more complicated, since childhood abuse can contribute to bullying. i have run across the attitudes such as "slaves are better than submissive women"; "experienced subbies are superior to novices"; etc. i imagine everyone has encountered this phenom.

But there can be no elite class in a world as chaotic, expanding, changing and exciting as BDSM. Sure, You can be a Grand Imperial Master -- but only in your own mind. A lack of respect for any person based on anything other than that person's actions incurring a lack of respect would cause me to lose interest in a Man fast.

pinkpleasures



Yes but how can you deny that there are just a huge number of infinitly idiotic people out there? Is it elitism to state the obvious that very few people reach even the fundamentals of self actualization and the rest seem like one giant mob of followers? At some point doesnt 'tolerance' for every one regardless of how badly informed and proud of it they are, equal the devaluation of everyone that is truly excellent? Keep in mind I'm not speaking of the BDSM population alone although clearly we do recognise the virtue of many in this community as authorities on somethings while others we do not. at a certain point acceptance of everyones point of view and knoweldge no matter how flawed degrades the truth es verdad?

< Message edited by Angrylibrarian -- 8/12/2005 12:11:29 PM >

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RE: Elitism in BDSM/Ds/WIITWD - 8/12/2005 1:35:48 PM   
pinkpleasures


Posts: 1114
Status: offline
quote:

Yes but how can you deny that there are just a huge number of infinitly idiotic people out there? Is it elitism to state the obvious that very few people reach even the fundamentals of self actualization and the rest seem like one giant mob of followers? At some point doesnt 'tolerance' for every one regardless of how badly informed and proud of it they are, equal the devaluation of everyone that is truly excellent? Keep in mind I'm not speaking of the BDSM population alone although clearly we do recognise the virtue of many in this community as authorities on somethings while others we do not. at a certain point acceptance of everyones point of view and knoweldge no matter how flawed degrades the truth es verdad?

Angrylibraian


i guess i'm more optimistic...i have not seen HUGE numbers of the ignorant and proud of it...most P/pl i have encountered have been generous in teaching me and humble enough to continue learning. i have never met anyone "infinitly idiotic"; but if You meant someone mentally challenged, so what? Are You about to launch a tirade against the devlopmentally disabled? As for self-actualization, it is a model for human mental/emotional growth after reaching one's majority...not everyone accepts it. There are other models. Tolerance and mutual respect diminishes no one...excellence is its own reward. If the "BDSM community" recognizes certain authorities i am just now hearing of it? Who are these people? What gives Them authority over me? No, the flotsam and jetsam of a message board does not put Truth at risk; by its very nature, Truth is immutable.

pinkpleasures

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RE: Elitism in BDSM/Ds/WIITWD - 8/12/2005 1:45:11 PM   
junecleaver


Posts: 1145
Joined: 4/6/2005
Status: offline
quote:

In this "lifestyle," we seem to look to be accepted. We want the world to know that WIITWD (what it is that we do) is okay, and natural, for us. *I* want my family and friends to know that my sexual orientation, my identity, my self is part of who I am, and I can't, and don't want to change that.


I don't feel that way.



But I have noticed what you're talking about. There's nothing one person can do, but encourage others to open their eyes. It's rather frustrating when others act like that. Just keep on trucking, and remember to never act like that.


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RE: Elitism in BDSM/Ds/WIITWD - 8/12/2005 1:57:45 PM   
IronBear


Posts: 9008
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
Status: offline 		I honestly believe that to a greater or lesser degree most people are elitist. We just know that our favourite sports team is the best and if we are fanatical supporters we know we are way better than those who support other teams… Heh, I grew up in an elitist society, had it hammered into me that my school was the elite. Wow even in the army I gravitated to the elite unit. Nothing about needing to be part of something better than my mate next door, simply that elite teams or units were much more to my taste due to what they did or offered. (I’ll hazard a guess that all the current and ex Marines, or Airborne or SF guys understand where I’m coming from….) The only problem I find is with those who pose and spend all day thumping their weedy chests crying in loud bullfrog voices how elite their own clique is.. They aren’t elite they simply have an identity problem and are in desperate need of an attitude change……

_____________________________

Iron Bear

Master of Bruin Cottage

http://www.bruincottage.org

Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.

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RE: Elitism in BDSM/Ds/WIITWD - 8/12/2005 2:00:34 PM   
Padriag


Posts: 2633
Joined: 3/30/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Angrylibrarian

When is it ok to simply disdain "them/the others" because they are ignorant and not as good/intelligent/aware/educated/self actualised/ as I am? If we eliminate elitism we tend to eliminate objective value as well and end up with a qualitative relativism that lumps the worst in with the best.

How's this sound, when they lack merit; merit being gained through achievement and effort. In other words, merit earned through doing, not saying. Here's another thought, who would you have more patience with, someone who is trying their best but failing because they lack talent; or someone who has talent but makes little effort to use it?

Or you could just go read my essay on equality.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Fidelity

There is no one path to fulfillment-there are many-even for the same individual. Is not limiting oneself, doing a disservice?

You just reminded me of something a friend of mine, who happens to be a buddhist monk, once talked to me about. This was something he shared with me,"There is no one path to enlightenment, each must make his own journey and find his own path." Course he also said I'd found the most unique path to enlightenment of anyone he ever knew... I never claimed to be normal

quote:

ORIGINAL: pinkpleasures

Personally, i think this also gives rise to mysoginy and xenophobia.

Very astute, it does indeed, both are forms of fear of the unknown. Literally so in the case of xenophobia.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Angrylibrarian

Yes but how can you deny that there are just a huge number of infinitly idiotic people out there?

You can't deny it, some people are just plain dumb. However, I think you've misunderstood something, or at least we're mixing metaphors. There is a difference between elitism, which is in fact self-agrandizement born out of a sense of inferiority, a perceived or real lack of merit... vs actual superiority, born of actual merit. It is possible to be superior to another without engaging in elitism. For example, I have a dear friend who is a talented musician. In this regard she is superior to me, but she does not feel the need to boast about it or belittle me because I cannot play anything other than the stereo... she is superior in skill, but not elitist. She has no need to be elitist, her talent and superiority are both real and self evident, they need no embelishment.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Angrylibrarian

Is it elitism to state the obvious that very few people reach even the fundamentals of self actualization and the rest seem like one giant mob of followers?

Hmmm.. some one has been reading Maslow haven't they? Good choice, you'd likely enjoy Aflred Adler as well. But I think in this case you might wish to read Nietzsche's essay on What is Noble from Beyond Good and Evil. And then remember this quote, also by Nietzsche.

What is most humane? To spare someone shame.
Whom do you call bad? Those who always want to put you to shame.

And this too...

Prayer to men. "Forgive us our virtues" thus one should pray to men.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Angrylibrarian

At some point doesnt 'tolerance' for every one regardless of how badly informed and proud of it they are, equal the devaluation of everyone that is truly excellent?

Tolerance for what another is is one thing and necessary, but is not the same as approval. Serenity lies in knowing the difference. I really do think you would enjoy my essay on Are We Equal? which can be found in the creative writing section of my web site. The link is in my signature below.

_____________________________

Padriag

A stern discipline pervades all nature, which is a little cruel so that it may be very kind - Edmund Spencer

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RE: Elitism in BDSM/Ds/WIITWD - 8/12/2005 2:56:07 PM   
Angrylibrarian


Posts: 214
Joined: 8/10/2005
Status: offline 		Ahh gotcha! We are indeed speaking of different things. At first I thought you were trying to say that there isn't a quantifiable way to measure that "elite”.

And I resist that sort of thought because of several conversations I've had with 2 submissives who have a long history in the life. Essentially they both stuck on this idea that people want to be "Old guard" masters or at least call themselves that. These two women insisted separately that saying such a thing was proof that you had no idea what you are talking about since old guard refers specifically to the post war leather man movement. I suggested that people might want to identify with that title because they were emulating the old guard but they both convinced me that all these titles and declarations of merit (thank you for that word) are in and of themselves signs that the mainstreaming of the lifestyle is causing it to become mediocrity. (thank you protagonistlily and a girl names siena)

Which leads me to why I keep insisting most people are idiots (present company excepted of course). I am constantly noticing that every pure thing when it becomes accessible to the general public declines towards the mediocre rapidly. It isn't so much all the misinformation but the actual willful defense of misinformation. It dilutes a pure idea. In the case of this thread and forum you can see it in the shifting and debate of who is and who is not submissive or slave and what that means. Over time the definitions themselves have been so diluted with nonsense that they are becoming meaningful only to individuals yet there is no shortage of persons to passionately defend one misinterpretation over another.

It’s a very interesting argument, how or if there is an elite in the lifestyle when the life is so diverse. I just wonder now if there’s a real way to measure merit.

Oh and I haven’t read Maslow for a long time. In fact Self-actualized has literally come to mean "not an idiot" to me over the years and I forgot it was his.

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RE: Elitism in BDSM/Ds/WIITWD - 8/12/2005 3:15:35 PM   
darkinshadows


Posts: 4145
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: UK
Status: offline
quote:

Which leads me to why I keep insisting most people are idiots (present company excepted of course). I am constantly noticing that every pure thing when it becomes accessible to the general public declines towards the mediocre rapidly. It isn't so much all the misinformation but the actual willful defense of misinformation. It dilutes a pure idea. In the case of this thread and forum you can see it in the shifting and debate of who is and who is not submissive or slave and what that means. Over time the definitions themselves have been so diluted with nonsense that they are becoming meaningful only to individuals yet there is no shortage of persons to passionately defend one misinterpretation over another.



I do not see most people as idiots. I do not think that is the case. Many, if not most people are actually quite bright, non idiotic and have their own perceptions. But most people are lazy. They would much rather hear from others and take it as gospel than learn for themselves. The easiest route is a vicarious life with no actual contact for oneself. Lets read a bit, listen a little and not really hear what is being said. Lets just take a minority and not learn about this minority, but just follow. Maybe not even follow, lets just persecute. Because if it isnt inside us, if it isnt what we already feel or know - its easy to be afraid of and when fear takes over, the fighting and seperation starts.

Maybe this is idiocy - maybe they are idiotic for being such a way, but thats just an after thought. The result, not the actual reason.
The actual reason is laziness.
Which perpetuates fear.
Which leads to idiocy.
Which causes elitism.

Peace and Love

_____________________________
.dark.



...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

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RE: Elitism in BDSM/Ds/WIITWD - 8/12/2005 3:22:10 PM   
pinkpleasures


Posts: 1114
Status: offline
Well, dark angel has explained the fall of the Republican Party to me. Thanks.

pinkpleasures

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RE: Elitism in BDSM/Ds/WIITWD - 8/12/2005 6:27:55 PM   
krazysubbiekat


Posts: 145
Joined: 7/31/2005
Status: offline 		IMHO, this is not a role-play for me. This is who I am. I am a submissive, whether I am in a "scene", driving in the car, doing the dishes, or anything else I do during the course of my life. While I am a sexual submissive, that is a very small part of my identity.

As far as elitism goes, I have another example of the discrimination that is rampant in this group of "open-minded" people. I identify myself as a pain-slut. While that is true, I have found that some submissives look down on girls such as me. They automatically assume that it makes me less submissive, simply because I am seeking more of a physical relationship. On the other side of that coin, there are pain-sluts that look down at submissives who are not into TTWD for the pain. (How can you be submissive without being beat?) Being a submissive is hard enough without us turning on each other.

Okay, I have ranted enough....thank you for indulging this girl's thoughts.

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RE: Elitism in BDSM/Ds/WIITWD - 8/12/2005 7:01:53 PM   
IronBear


Posts: 9008
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
Status: offline 		Ok lets look at elitism from another perspective. Lets imagine you work you heart out to be able to join a team such as an NFL (substitute your sport here) team (Ok so I’m hooked on football), of you make it to the Olympics representing you country, you work your guts out and make it as the top student at college or you, because of hard work and dedication, are offered a fellowship is some prestigious professional organization. You have become one of the elite in whatever area you chose to shine in. Is this wrong? Is it wrong to be proud of your achievements? No. Its natural and healthy to be proud of what you have achieved. It is wrong when you rub your achievements in the faces of those less talented. I always think that those less talented people are really gifted also, just not an ways which are recognised my society.

_____________________________

Iron Bear

Master of Bruin Cottage

http://www.bruincottage.org

Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.

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RE: Elitism in BDSM/Ds/WIITWD - 8/12/2005 7:09:14 PM   
pinkpleasures


Posts: 1114
Status: offline
OMFG; will SOMEONE give me an unabrigded copy of all the book of all the acronyms? LOL; what is "TTWD"?

Seriously though, when i arrived here on collarme and was learning from my mentor, it was the pain sluts i had the most difficulty accepting. My work on behalf of battered women made me very confused and ill at ease. These days i just remind myself that i now have many things that confuse me, and everyone deserves respect. No one is asking me for help, and it isn't what i thought anyway.

So, once again, a little respect opened my eyes and heart to learning a little. It's been that way for me since day one. i suspect it's that way for many people.

pinkpleasures

< Message edited by pinkpleasures -- 8/12/2005 7:10:18 PM >

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RE: Elitism in BDSM/Ds/WIITWD - 8/13/2005 12:02:09 AM   
EmeraldSlave2


Posts: 3645
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Angrylibrarian

hmm. while I agree with Padriag and want to digest his piece a little while longer. I can't help but wonder..

When is it ok to simply disdain "them/the others" because they are ignorant and not as good/intelligent/aware/educated/self actualised/ as I am? If we eliminate elitism we tend to eliminate objective value as well and end up with a qualitative relativism that lumps the worst in with the best.

just a thought.

Angry

I have come to terms with the fact that I cannot become close and intimate with someone unless they are "really smart" but I understand that this is my personal judgement at place and that not "really smart" people do not have less INHERENT value in and of themselves.

I think that's the difference. My friends aren't "better" people just because they are what I consider "really smart" but they are absolutely better for me.

And I accept the level of elitism that brings upon me.

(in reply to Angrylibrarian)
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RE: Elitism in BDSM/Ds/WIITWD - 8/13/2005 12:27:15 AM   
Fidelity


Posts: 192
Joined: 8/1/2005
Status: offline 		I have a creative/craftsperson form of elitism-I prefer partners who aren't helpless at making and fixing things. Lights me up to do art with a girl-don't ask me why.

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RE: Elitism in BDSM/Ds/WIITWD - 8/13/2005 5:47:59 AM   
pinkpleasures


Posts: 1114
Status: offline
i don't know if a Dom or Master with an average or below-average IQ could be my One. On the other hand, the IQ tests are so limited; so many kinds of intelligence are not measured. i guess i'll cross that bridge when i come to it. As for friends..i am attracted to smart people, true, but i am most attracted to people of great character and i have friends who may not be seen as "smart" by the world but are very kind and bring a great deal to the table.

pinkpleasures

< Message edited by pinkpleasures -- 8/13/2005 5:48:34 AM >

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RE: Elitism in BDSM/Ds/WIITWD - 8/13/2005 9:43:48 AM   
IronBear


Posts: 9008
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: pinkpleasures

i don't know if a Dom or Master with an average or below-average IQ could be my One. On the other hand, the IQ tests are so limited; so many kinds of intelligence are not measured. i guess i'll cross that bridge when i come to it. As for friends..i am attracted to smart people, true, but i am most attracted to people of great character and i have friends who may not be seen as "smart" by the world but are very kind and bring a great deal to the table.

pinkpleasures


Well said pink, we appear to have a similar taste in friends.

_____________________________

Iron Bear

Master of Bruin Cottage

http://www.bruincottage.org

Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.

(in reply to pinkpleasures)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Elitism in BDSM/Ds/WIITWD - 8/13/2005 11:42:45 AM   
darkinshadows


Posts: 4145
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Fidelity

I have a creative/craftsperson form of elitism-I prefer partners who aren't helpless at making and fixing things. Lights me up to do art with a girl-don't ask me why.



Ah - but is it elitism - or just a preference/fetish?

Peace and Love

_____________________________
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...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

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RE: Elitism in BDSM/Ds/WIITWD - 8/13/2005 11:48:49 AM   
Padriag


Posts: 2633
Joined: 3/30/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: IronBear

Is it wrong to be proud of your achievements? No. Its natural and healthy to be proud of what you have achieved. It is wrong when you rub your achievements in the faces of those less talented. I always think that those less talented people are really gifted also, just not an ways which are recognised my society.

Its not wrong to be proud of your achievements, your merits. But it would be wrong to rub it in someone's face, that's hubris. Nietzsche really had it right when he posited What is most humane, to spare someone shame (humiliation play not withstanding, that is really something else entirely). Elitism is self-agrandizement. What need does an Olympic athelete have for self-agrandizement? What need does anyone who is successful at what they do have for elitism? Elitism generally arrises from insecurity; its an effort to convince others, and more often themselves, that they are better than others... that they are somebody. But if a person actually has real success they shouldn't feel insecure, they have no reason to be insecure. It is true though that some successful people, some actors and singers are noteable examples, are still insecure and you have to wonder what demons plague them so much that even with all their success they still feel the need to put others down to make themselves feel better.

quote:

ORIGINAL: EmeraldSlave2

I have come to terms with the fact that I cannot become close and intimate with someone unless they are "really smart" but I understand that this is my personal judgement at place and that not "really smart" people do not have less INHERENT value in and of themselves.

I think that's the difference. My friends aren't "better" people just because they are what I consider "really smart" but they are absolutely better for me.

And I accept the level of elitism that brings upon me.

Some may call that elitism but it isn't. Having higher standards for yourself and knowing what qualities you need in friends and relationships is not elitism. Its just being discerning. We all have those standards in some form. Sometimes people get unrealistic about them and wish for things that aren't likely to ever happen. Some dreamer Dom and can fatnasize about having Angelina Jolie for a slave, but it ain't gonna happen. Even still, having that dream isn't elitism... unrealistic and foolish yes, but not elitism. Saying that you get along best with someone who is intelligent, has an above average IQ, is creative, musically talented, generous, or whatever other qualities you might like is not elitism. Its just personal preference and we are all entitled to prefer whatever we wish, that's called freedom of choice.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Fidelity

I have a creative/craftsperson form of elitism-I prefer partners who aren't helpless at making and fixing things. Lights me up to do art with a girl-don't ask me why.

I also enjoy someone who is creative, perhaps has artistic talent or musical talent or is good at crafts. I'm a creative person and to be with someone who is also creative nurishes that creativity in me. I really don't see that as elistim though, just knowing myself and what qualities bring me joy. There are a list of qualtiies I enjoy in others, I don't expect anyone to have them all, that very very rarely happens; but I find I form the best friendships and relationships with people who have some of those qualities. I think that is true of all of us, though perhaps some of us are more aware of it than others.

_____________________________

Padriag

A stern discipline pervades all nature, which is a little cruel so that it may be very kind - Edmund Spencer

(in reply to IronBear)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Elitism in BDSM/Ds/WIITWD - 8/13/2005 11:57:39 AM   
Fidelity


Posts: 192
Joined: 8/1/2005
Status: offline 		That's true Padriag.

I see no reason to issue put downs over differences-unless they are overtly harmful to others. It's more of a prefference,I was just being ironic.

(in reply to Padriag)
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RE: Elitism in BDSM/Ds/WIITWD - 8/13/2005 12:17:00 PM   
BlkTallFullfig


Posts: 5585
Joined: 6/25/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: pinkpleasures
On the other hand, the IQ tests are so limited; so many kinds of intelligence are not measured. i guess i'll cross that bridge when i come to it. As for friends..i am attracted to smart people, true, but i am most attracted to people of great character and i have friends who may not be seen as "smart" by the world but are very kind and bring a great deal to the table.
pinkpleasures[/center][/font][/size][/color]
I'm with you Pinkpleasures. A lot of people measure smart by number of degrees. The number of degrees one owns doesn't necessarily tell me they are the smartest, and it certainly doesn't make them great/respectable in my view. M

P.S. I love your signature line
quote:

Resolve to be tender with the young, compassionate with the aged, sympathetic with the striving, and tolerant with the weak and the wrong. Sometime in your life you will have been all of these."
~ Bob Goddard ~



< Message edited by BlkTallFullfig -- 8/13/2005 12:19:06 PM >

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