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Nature versus Nuture - 8/12/2005 10:19:22 AM   
KittenWithaTwist


Posts: 490
Joined: 8/3/2005
Status: offline 		I know I just posted a topic. But I have no job right now, so I've spent a lot of time just...thinking. I've decided that thinking and investigating the psyche is very very bad for me. Oh well. On to the point.

I'm a young person, but I'm had a pretty major mess of crap (which I won't go into detail about) happen to me within the last 22 years. Some of that crap (actually, most of it) has to do with sex, sexuality, pain, and repression. I don't know, really, how many more people within the BDSM community have had a youth like mine, so I don't know if people will be able to relate....however:

Do you ever think that the reason you do WIITWD has something to do with the way you were raised, or the way external stimuli affected you over the years? Do you think something in a past life (if you believe in that) changed you into someone who enjoys an activity and a sexual lifestyle that is so out on the fringe of contemporary society?

Do you believe that you are born with this need to be dom or sub or both, or that something made you this way?

Because I don't know, right now. And each day, week, month, and year that I explore it, I am more and more confused about how it was that I turned out so different from the rest of the population...
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RE: Nature versus Nuture - 8/12/2005 11:10:32 AM   
ChereeAmoor


Posts: 185
Joined: 8/1/2005
Status: offline 		It is a little of everything, nature and nurture and that crazy thing of thinking for oneself that leads us all to where we are.

(in reply to KittenWithaTwist)
Profile   Post #: 2
RE: Nature versus Nuture - 8/12/2005 11:17:20 AM   
pinkpleasures


Posts: 1114
Status: offline
No Kitten; i am a submissive woman but because i lived in constant danger and tried to protect others, i was unable to behave like one...or even acknowledge those feelings.

Later in life i was a litigator..acting for the elderly and the poor and battered women; and felt like a champion of the down-trodden. i worked until i exhausted myself and i won my cases. Litigation made me feel very Domme and i was so sad and lonely. i did try a few times to get out; i was considered for a teaching position and by a trade association, but did not land those jobs, and it would have been hell on my kid, who was in her senior year of high school. i received offers from insurance firms but never wanted to go over to "the dark side".

It wasn't until i was left at home that i found D/s (last jan) and found a language for my feelings. It was a thrilling moment.

So in my opinion, a fairly stress-free life enhances one's natural tendencies.

pinkpleasures


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RE: Nature versus Nuture - 8/12/2005 11:37:43 AM   
nenakajira


Posts: 221
Joined: 7/14/2005
Status: offline 		A few years ago I took a poll of female submissives in the BDSM and Gorean communities and found that a large amount (about 89 percent) had been abused or raped.

On the surface that might seem to point that women who have been victimized gravitate towards a lifestyle like this. Unfortunitely, when you look at the statistics, its not exactly true.

(The following statistics come from Rainn.org, kiddefense.org and childhelpusa.org and reflect US statistics only)

Starting with child abuse:

The infant homicide rate was at a 30 year high in 2003.
More than 2.9 million reports of possible maltreatment involving children were made to child protective service agencies in calendar year 2003.1

The actual incidence of abuse and neglect is estimated to be three times greater than the number reported to authorities.

Child abuse is reported-on average-every 10 seconds.
Based on approximately 2.9 million reports per year.

An estimated 906,000 children were victims of abuse and neglect in 2003 (cases substantiated by child protective service agencies).

And on to molestation:
There are roughly 4,000,000 child molesters in the US right now

1 out of every 3 girls will be molested before turning 18

Between 1 out of every 5 and 1 out of 7 boys will be molested

The average age of the victim is between 8 and 11 years old

Females reported family members as molesters in 29% of cases, acquaintances 60%

Males reported family members as molesters in 16% of cases, acquaintances 44%

Stepfathers are statistically higher perpetrators of molestation/sexual abuse

A typical child molester will molest 30-60 children before being arrested and around 380 over their lifetime

42% of pedophiles began offending before age 12, 75% of all perpetrators before 13

70% of those adjudicated guilty of child molestation serve no time for the crime!

Adult males involved in 'normal' heterosexual relationships present a statistically higher risk to both girls and boys


And now rape:
In 2002-2003, there were an average of 223,280 victims of rape, attempted rape or sexual assault.
Only about 40% of rapes sexual assaults were reported to law enforcement in 2003.
Since 1993, rape/sexual assault has fallen by over 65%.
Every two and a half minutes, somewhere in America, someone is sexually assaulted.

What this all comes down to, statistically speaking, is that a woman who has not been beaten, raped, molested or mistreated is not exactly the societal norm any longer.

Now add in domestic violence:
by the most conservative estimate, each year 1 million women suffer nonfatal violence by an intimate.
Bureau of Justice Statistics Special Report: Violence Against Women: Estimates from the Redesigned Survey (NCJ-154348), August 1995, p. 3.

by other estimates, 4 million American women experience a serious assault by an intimate partner during an average 12-month period.
American Psychl. Ass'n, Violence and the Family: Report of the American Psychological Association Presidential Task Force on Violence and the Family (1996), p. 10.

nearly 1 in 3 adult women experience at least one physical assault by a partner during adulthood.
American Psychl. Ass'n, Violence and the Family: Report of the American Psychological Association Presidential Task Force on Violence and the Family (1996), p. 10.

I dont believe that theres more than a slightly larger majority inside the scene than outside of women who have been victimized and therefor I dont think we can say that being a victim is what leads people into the alternate lifestyles. In the end, it appears, being a victim is just part of being a woman. Welcome to modern society.

(in reply to KittenWithaTwist)
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RE: Nature versus Nuture - 8/12/2005 11:44:03 AM   
sub4hire


Posts: 6775
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline
quote:

Do you ever think that the reason you do WIITWD has something to do with the way you were raised, or the way external stimuli affected you over the years? Do you think something in a past life (if you believe in that) changed you into someone who enjoys an activity and a sexual lifestyle that is so out on the fringe of contemporary society?

Do you believe that you are born with this need to be dom or sub or both, or that something made you this way?


Many here will disagree with this statement just because they assume it is psycho babble.
However, I do believe we are born the way we are. Yet our environment also affects us.
If you clone a person or animal and take them out of the environment the orginal being was brought up in they are different. They still have the same genetic DNA but different.

Myself, I can look back as far as I remember knowing things I did that were submissive. I've asked myself why many times over the year's. The principle reason is I was told to.

However, I also grew up with siblings much older than myself who were also submissive. They chose abuser's. Knowing I did not want the same for myself I tried to change who I was. Become dominnant. Well, after year's of trying I finally realized we must cherish who we are. Why change? It is impossible. We just have to choose properly.

I, myself stuck up for the underdogs all of my life. It was who I wanted to be. I wanted to be strong and need to rely on no one in my life. I achieved that. Once I did so I could give part of me to another. Yet most here and those who know me in person will call me a dominant. That pleases me because that is what I tried to achieve for year's. Last weekend a friend of ours told me he finally saw me the way my dom see's me. Submissive and helpless...made me laugh. Perhaps he just finally got close enough to see what my dom see's.

My mother was a slave in all sense's of the word. I just don't believe we can change who we are no matter how hard we try. Small instances but not the big stuff.

(in reply to KittenWithaTwist)
Profile   Post #: 5
RE: Nature versus Nuture - 8/12/2005 12:01:44 PM   
KittenWithaTwist


Posts: 490
Joined: 8/3/2005
Status: offline 		You say that you look back on your life and realize that you always did things submissively. However, you are looking back at them in retrospect and using the information you have now. So, the things you were doing back then may not have actually been submissive at all, but because you identify as submissive as an adult, you may perceive or believe them to be so.

I wonder if that made sense.

(in reply to sub4hire)
Profile   Post #: 6
RE: Nature versus Nuture - 8/12/2005 12:48:11 PM   
EmeraldSlave2


Posts: 3645
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		I believe I was born as a bisexual polyamorous slave genetic female and my upbringing did not and would not have changed any of it.

I believe my dominant, aggressive, slutty competitive personality was very much formed due to the circumstances of my upbringing.

(in reply to KittenWithaTwist)
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RE: Nature versus Nuture - 8/12/2005 1:24:00 PM   
pinkpleasures


Posts: 1114
Status: offline
If i had behaved as a submissive as a teenager, i would not be here.

If i had not behaved as a Domme whilst raising my kid, i don't know how else i would have supported her.

Environment separated me from who i was...with great self-doubt and sorrow. i tend to agree with Emerald...the feelings were there for as long as i can remember; i just never knew what they were. i thought i was insecure or a freak.

pinkpleasures

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RE: Nature versus Nuture - 8/12/2005 1:28:23 PM   
BlkTallFullfig


Posts: 5585
Joined: 6/25/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: KittenWithaTwist
Do you ever think that the reason you do WIITWD has something to do with the way you were raised, or the way external stimuli affected you over the years? Do you think something in a past life (if you believe in that) changed you into someone who enjoys an activity and a sexual lifestyle that is so out on the fringe of contemporary society?

Do you believe that you are born with this need to be dom or sub or both, or that something made you this way?

I believe I was born with a dominant personality/need. I was raised to be a submissive lady, who understood that being married to someone possessing a penis was the ultimate goal; but living that felt a lot like I was trying very hard to be something that felt unnatural, and life would be one big sacrifice. Glad to say that load of crap is off my shoulders and now I rather enjoy moi and telling boys how it's going to go down. M

_____________________________

a.k.a. SexyBossyBBW
""Touching was, and still is, and will always be, the true revolution" Nikki Giovanni

(in reply to KittenWithaTwist)
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RE: Nature versus Nuture - 8/12/2005 2:12:29 PM   
junecleaver


Posts: 1145
Joined: 4/6/2005
Status: offline
quote:

Do you ever think that the reason you do WIITWD has something to do with the way you were raised, or the way external stimuli affected you over the years? Do you think something in a past life (if you believe in that) changed you into someone who enjoys an activity and a sexual lifestyle that is so out on the fringe of contemporary society?


I grew up without a real father. Is that why I'm attracted to men older than myself? I don't know, probably. I grew up in an enviroment that encourage women to be submissive to men. And I know that had a huge affect on how I interact in romantic relationships.

quote:

Do you believe that you are born with this need to be dom or sub or both, or that something made you this way?


To an extent. Two years ago, I believed that I wasn't a natural submissive. I grew up with very few rules and little structure. I always controlled myself. I was a leader(won three or four leadership awards in high school haha). But now I realize that I was in charge because I didn't really trust the people around me and I thought they were a tad incompetent(and that attitude just left me exhausted and bitter). Since then I've branched out, met amazing people that were more experienced than myself, began to trust them, and found that I naturally fell into a submissive role.

So I would say, yes I was born this way. I don't know if I would call it a "need" but that's for another threat and another time.


quote:

Because I don't know, right now. And each day, week, month, and year that I explore it, I am more and more confused about how it was that I turned out so different from the rest of the population...


Just from what you've posted and what I've read....you seem to feel like you are completely alienated from the rest of the population. You're not "so different from the rest of the population" Some people like missionary, other people like to be tied up and spanked. In the big scheme of things, it's not that big of a deal. I believe that everyone can fit in with the rest of the population if that's what they want. Yourself included.

(in reply to BlkTallFullfig)
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RE: Nature versus Nuture - 8/12/2005 2:17:38 PM   
sub4hire


Posts: 6775
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline
quote:

You say that you look back on your life and realize that you always did things submissively. However, you are looking back at them in retrospect and using the information you have now. So, the things you were doing back then may not have actually been submissive at all, but because you identify as submissive as an adult, you may perceive or believe them to be so.


It does make sense. However what does one do when it is all they know? I am not like most here on the boards. I started researching the lifestyle in school when I was 12. I didn't play however until I was 21 with my first dom.
So, I have had knowledge of the lifestyle for the past....27 years. Basically it hasn't changed in those years. Peoples definitions have but the lifestyle hasn't.
I also contemplate life on an almost daily basis. I get much deeper into philosophy than I care to admit.

(in reply to KittenWithaTwist)
Profile   Post #: 11
RE: Nature versus Nuture - 8/12/2005 2:43:26 PM   
Kindred2Evil


Posts: 227
Joined: 4/16/2005
Status: offline 		I'd say I have to agree with some here...that it's both nature and the way you were raised. I'm a dominant female, but I was raised in a male dominated family. I'm the oldest in the family (my generation), I have a younger brother and all my cousins are younger as well. I was always treated like one of the guys, I spent most of my time with my uncles and dad growing up. My mother, much to her chagrin, didn't get the cute lil frou frou girl that she was hoping for. The women in my family were all submissive in behavior, fixing the men's plates for every meal, generally waiting on them hand and foot, then the children then taking care of themselves.
I think that being raised the way I was only enhanced what was already there.
After a very horrible first marriage in which my husband tried to turn me into a submissive female, I was lucky enough to meet a wonderful mentor who helped me figure out what it was I really wanted. He helped "nurture" that side of me.
All in all, I'd have to say that you are born with some tendancies that can be either nurtured or stamped out due to experiences in your life. You have to do what makes YOU happy.

_____________________________

Her touch is on the breeze that brushes your cheek, Her voice rides the thunder as the storm breaks, Her tears will clean your heartache when the rains come, Her sun will light the darkest times when you feel alone...She is the Goddess.

(in reply to sub4hire)
Profile   Post #: 12
RE: Nature versus Nuture - 8/12/2005 5:38:11 PM   
nella


Posts: 1243
Joined: 12/30/2004
From: Norway
Status: offline 		i was born submissive, my Mother tried to raise me to be like her, the self dependant, bow to no one wonderful woman that she is, but i was always the one that let other go first, never could handle an argument, and always did what my frinds wished. i have a problem turning down phone sellers. And basicaly i was always kind of a doormat. But now, that i try to live out more of my submissive side whit my Dom, now i am learing to say no to others. So in a way, the more submissive i become to him, the less submissive i become to the world at large.

(in reply to Kindred2Evil)
Profile   Post #: 13
RE: Nature versus Nuture - 8/12/2005 6:23:07 PM   
IronBear


Posts: 9008
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: nella

i was born submissive, my Mother tried to raise me to be like her, the self dependant, bow to no one wonderful woman that she is, but i was always the one that let other go first, never could handle an argument, and always did what my frinds wished. i have a problem turning down phone sellers. And basicaly i was always kind of a doormat. But now, that i try to live out more of my submissive side whit my Dom, now i am learing to say no to others. So in a way, the more submissive i become to him, the less submissive i become to the world at large.


That sounds pretty normal to me lass. You now have a focus for your submissiveness and you dont need to bow down to the rest of the world... That is damned healthy. Good on you.


_____________________________

Iron Bear

Master of Bruin Cottage

http://www.bruincottage.org

Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.

(in reply to nella)
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RE: Nature versus Nuture - 8/12/2005 8:12:17 PM   
pinkpleasures


Posts: 1114
Status: offline
quote:

I dont believe that theres more than a slightly larger majority inside the scene than outside of women who have been victimized and therefor I dont think we can say that being a victim is what leads people into the alternate lifestyles. In the end, it appears, being a victim is just part of being a woman. Welcome to modern society.

nenakajira


Being a victim is a state of mind (once the attack ends). i much prefer women to think of being survivors. Your statistics are startling; i wonder if you looked at the FBI National Crime data? i'm not challenging you, but there are some groups who have engaged in puffery. Bear in mind as well, that rape and similar crimes have lost their social stigma and are probably more reported; not necessarily more committed. Same with child abuse; and in that arena, tougher laws have gone perhaps too far. Defining abuse as any mark left on a child, however transitory; etc.

At the end of the day, women need to be sensible, self-protective and willing to defend themselves. It's all we can do. When a crime occurs anyway, we should support the victim but not turn her into a victim for life.

pinkpleasures

< Message edited by pinkpleasures -- 8/12/2005 8:13:27 PM >

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RE: Nature versus Nuture - 8/12/2005 9:20:30 PM   
MistressFire70


Posts: 378
Joined: 7/25/2004
From: North Carolina
Status: offline 		Actually, I think that a lot of what I did or allowed in my youth was an inappropriate expression of my Leather sexuality. I didn't KNOW about Leather then, and thus, didn't KNOW how to express what I am. Does this mean that everything that happened to me was my fault? No. But I do accept responsibility for some of the choices I made and actions I took.

As a side note: delving into your psyche is a good thing, if you're looking to learn more about yourself and grow. This does not mean it's EASY, however. In looking at myself, I learned about how others are also wired, which made it easier for me to forgive them and move on. Therapists are often worth the money!

Fire


_____________________________

you have come to a great chasm. Jump. It's not as wide as you think.

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RE: Nature versus Nuture - 8/12/2005 10:00:53 PM   
AAkasha


Posts: 4429
Joined: 11/27/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: KittenWithaTwist

I know I just posted a topic. But I have no job right now, so I've spent a lot of time just...thinking. I've decided that thinking and investigating the psyche is very very bad for me. Oh well. On to the point.

I'm a young person, but I'm had a pretty major mess of crap (which I won't go into detail about) happen to me within the last 22 years. Some of that crap (actually, most of it) has to do with sex, sexuality, pain, and repression. I don't know, really, how many more people within the BDSM community have had a youth like mine, so I don't know if people will be able to relate....however:

Do you ever think that the reason you do WIITWD has something to do with the way you were raised, or the way external stimuli affected you over the years? Do you think something in a past life (if you believe in that) changed you into someone who enjoys an activity and a sexual lifestyle that is so out on the fringe of contemporary society?

Do you believe that you are born with this need to be dom or sub or both, or that something made you this way?

Because I don't know, right now. And each day, week, month, and year that I explore it, I am more and more confused about how it was that I turned out so different from the rest of the population...


What about people who were born with their kinks, but also have no abuse in their family, no issues with gender and grew up in a loving, supportive nuclear family with two parents that remained married and in love, and siblings that lived in harmony?

I've had a fascination with putting men into positions of helplessness and bondage starting with cartoons. It is among my earliest memories, pre-sexual development, pre-orgasm, and has no foundation with any sexual games played in youth or fetishes developed. Nor does it come from any relationship issues with men - father, uncles, brothers.

What clearly affected my "is she gonna be a screwed up kid?" odds is that I didn't go through a self-loathing stage, an insecure period, a "oh my god I must be a freak" stage or anything that led to isolation, social insecurity or fear of relationships. I am grateful to my parents for that, because we were raised in a loving, supportive household. If they had been overly strict or sexually repressed, I might have screwed myself up pretty bad in my own head from wondering why I was so different.

But they certainly were not liberal either. I grew up with a conservative family and a lot of structure. I think the key is having parents that build self worth in their kids and good self image -- then they don't get traumatized in their teens as they try to develop an identity.


Akasha

_____________________________

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Don't email me here, email me at [email protected]

(in reply to KittenWithaTwist)
Profile   Post #: 17
RE: Nature versus Nuture - 8/13/2005 5:09:04 AM   
GentleLady


Posts: 356
Joined: 2/1/2005
Status: offline
quote:

So in a way, the more submissive i become to him, the less submissive i become to the world at large.
In My opinion that is what is supposed to happen because the submissive can "grow tall and hold their heads high" when they are in a good relationship. So many people go through life full of self-doubt and insecurities....you know that you are pleasing your Dominant because He tells you...you know that you are doing the right thing to help your relationship continue because you get reassurance...you know what your worth is and you know that you have every reason to be proud of who you are because you have earned the care and attention of your Dominant....you do not have to wonder if you are meeting His needs because He lets you know clearly what those needs are and how to meet them. All of this makes you strong enough to be less submissive to the rest of the world....in My opinion.

Gentle Lady

_____________________________

All things are possible to those who have patience, try, and are willing to learn.

(in reply to nella)
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RE: Nature versus Nuture - 8/13/2005 5:29:05 AM   
imtempting


Posts: 1280
Joined: 2/11/2005
Status: offline 		I belive im stumbleing though life and its taking me here. Will I stay here im not sure. Noone can tell the future.

(in reply to KittenWithaTwist)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: Nature versus Nuture - 8/13/2005 5:34:26 AM   
nella


Posts: 1243
Joined: 12/30/2004
From: Norway
Status: offline
quote:

That sounds pretty normal to me lass. You now have a focus for your submissiveness and you dont need to bow down to the rest of the world... That is damned healthy. Good on you.


Thank you Iron Bear, i am mutch more happy now, i feel stronger, better and more butiful.

(in reply to imtempting)
Profile   Post #: 20
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