RE: Would/could this be effective? (Full Version)

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Jeffff -> RE: Would/could this be effective? (11/29/2007 7:39:08 AM)

After reading both this thread and the 7am thread, I think you KNOW what needs to be done. I think you are hoping to find a short quick, rather painless allternative.There isn't one, and wishing doesn't make it so.

Jeff



AquaticSub -> RE: Would/could this be effective? (11/29/2007 7:43:36 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TwiztdErotic

Now, say she was bound and gagged and I asked her to complete this very same task. At first, she wouldn't do a damn thing..and I wouldn't pay an ounce of attention to her until she began to make an effort. Once she began to search for the object, I would call her a good girl and verbally walk her through the steps she might take to complete the task. I can't do this at all if she freaks out the entire time.




Why not just ignore her until she starts looking while unbound and ungagged? And as I said, binding and gagging is not going to prevent her from freaking out. Trust me, it is completely possibly to have panic attacks and other breakdowns while in full bondage.



Kalista07 -> RE: Would/could this be effective? (11/29/2007 9:21:44 AM)

SimplyMichael,
Thank You.....You explained my concerns much more elegantly that i ever could have.
Kali



laurell3 -> RE: Would/could this be effective? (11/29/2007 9:50:23 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TwiztdErotic

To reiterate, yet again, she will be receiving professional help. Nowhere in this thread have I said that I don't feel she needs it.

My question was quite simple; could this possibly work or would it cause more harm than good? I ask this question because I don't know the answer. To me, it has the potential to go either way.

quote:

Why do you have to gag her and bind her just to show her she has pleased you??

I don't. What I do need is for her to not freak out when she's given a task to complete. I can't begin to bring about any change in her behavior if she loses all control of herself every time she's asked to do something. This can be anything, from the most extreme to the simplest of things.
Example: If we are in a dark room and I ask her to find an object in the room, she freaks out and goes off about how she can't find it because it's dark. she won't even make an attempt at finding it, she'll just settle on the idea that she can't because it's dark..because it won't be the easiest thing in the world. is this really such a difficult task? certainly not..but, this has happened with her before. Now, say she was bound and gagged and I asked her to complete this very same task. At first, she wouldn't do a damn thing..and I wouldn't pay an ounce of attention to her until she began to make an effort. Once she began to search for the object, I would call her a good girl and verbally walk her through the steps she might take to complete the task. I can't do this at all if she freaks out the entire time.




YOU are not going to bring about any changes in her behavior period.  This is the part you are missing.  She needs a psychiatrist, a therapist, a complete medical workup, no d/s or bdsm until you know what's really going on and to do this for herself, not you.  You might have the best intentions, but you are seriously going to make this worse rather than better if you don't lay off and let her get the help she needs for herself.



DarkDaddyZ -> RE: Would/could this be effective? (11/29/2007 9:55:14 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

People, the bottom line is this guy IS trying to figure out what to do, he HAS admitted to making mistakes, he IS trying to grow.  Yeah he isn't doing perfect a perfect job but few of us are either.

I have a lot of sympathy because I WAS this kid but it took me almost two decades more than it is taking him to start asking these questions, you should really lay off with the "what an asshole line"!

Twisted,
Two main points, if you find yourself in the same situation (dating women with the same sort of issues) it might be a pattern, three times and it IS a pattern.  YOU have issues which cause you to seek out and find as mates women with the issues this one does.  You can see their issues clearly I am sure, so could I.  What you cannot see are YOUR issues and you pick women that mask yours.  Just like alcoholics pick drunks who are worse off than they are so they don't feel so bad.

The best way to help this woman is go to therapy yourself to find out why YOU get into these relationships with these sorts of women. 

The reason I was so drawn to D/s was because I was a control freak but it was a mask for a chaotic and disorganized life.  I find it pleasurable to "fix" others because it is FAR easier than fixing myself!  Until I started working on being a better person and fixing ME, I couldn't have a calm nurting and drama free relationship.  It was hard work, I destroyed my relationship with a rather wonderful submissive with whom I had an amazing connection.  We did the same sort of "oh my god we are amazing" then "you fucking crazy nutcase" dance for three plus years.



Michael: Like Riley on the Boondocks says "I'm not all up on your nutssacks or anything, you know..." but damn did you hit this right.  [:)]

It has taken me years to get this right, and I still don't get it right as BDSM and relationships are a work in progress, I appreciate you given props to Twiztd for evening putting this out there, and Twiztd thanks for the courage.



TwiztdErotic -> RE: Would/could this be effective? (11/29/2007 9:59:28 AM)

quote:

Why not just ignore her until she starts looking while unbound and ungagged? And as I said, binding and gagging is not going to prevent her from freaking out. Trust me, it is completely possibly to have panic attacks and other breakdowns while in full bondage.


I've tried this..it simply doesn't work.
What happens is this: she will continue to freak out so long as I expect her to do as she's been asked. she does this for (at least) two reasons.
1. What I've asked of her isn't something that she can do with minimal effort. ask her to do something that she either does not want to do or is something that she cannot do easily and her whole world crumbles and she panics.
2. she wants me to react. whether it be a positive reaction or a negative reaction, in her mind, (I believe) is unimportant. so long as I am reacting to her. Obviously, most people who use cognitive reasoning are going to opt for the positive reaction and do what they need to in order to get it. However, cognitive reasoning is something she's going to need to work on and I'm sure her therapist/psychiatrist/specialist is going to address this.

My thoughts are that if she physically cannot act in a way that will bring about a negative reaction, then the only alternative is to react in a way that brings about a positive reaction which could then be rewarded. My hope is that, after continually being told she's been good, having been rewarded and seeing that it makes me happy..she might begin to associate my happiness with her good behavior. she might also begin to realize that even when she does not immediately know how to do something, making an attempt will often yield more information which could then be used to complete the task. Once she has introduced cognitive reasoning into her thought process, she would be more inclined to choose 'good puppy' over 'bad puppy'.

Am I certain of any of this? absolutely not. however, these are my thoughts on the matter and I've shared them with the purpose of receiving feedback and insights from other's point of view.



AquaticSub -> RE: Would/could this be effective? (11/29/2007 10:39:12 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TwiztdErotic

quote:

Why not just ignore her until she starts looking while unbound and ungagged? And as I said, binding and gagging is not going to prevent her from freaking out. Trust me, it is completely possibly to have panic attacks and other breakdowns while in full bondage.


I've tried this..it simply doesn't work.
What happens is this: she will continue to freak out so long as I expect her to do as she's been asked. she does this for (at least) two reasons.
1. What I've asked of her isn't something that she can do with minimal effort. ask her to do something that she either does not want to do or is something that she cannot do easily and her whole world crumbles and she panics.

2. she wants me to react. whether it be a positive reaction or a negative reaction, in her mind, (I believe) is unimportant. so long as I am reacting to her. Obviously, most people who use cognitive reasoning are going to opt for the positive reaction and do what they need to in order to get it. However, cognitive reasoning is something she's going to need to work on and I'm sure her therapist/psychiatrist/specialist is going to address this.

My thoughts are that if she physically cannot act in a way that will bring about a negative reaction, then the only alternative is to react in a way that brings about a positive reaction which could then be rewarded.

There are other alternatives. Such as having a panic attack while in bondage - not fun at all, safewording to get out and/or calling the police while in the middle of panic attack if you wouldn't let her out. Binding her physically is not going to bind her mentally. It just doesn't work like that and since you are trying to play therapist you should not proceed until you get the green light from her actual therapist.

quote:



My hope is that, after continually being told she's been good, having been rewarded and seeing that it makes me happy..she might begin to associate my happiness with her good behavior. she might also begin to realize that even when she does not immediately know how to do something, making an attempt will often yield more information which could then be used to complete the task. Once she has introduced cognitive reasoning into her thought process, she would be more inclined to choose 'good puppy' over 'bad puppy'.

This makes sense but, like with a child or a puppy, you have to catch them being good. When you force an animal to do something and then praise it, the animal is just cranky at you for forcing them how to do something. Really doesn't care about the praise. You can encourage and coax and give praise for little steps. You don't teach a dog to jump through a hoop in one go - First you teach it get up on a chair. Then you teach it jump off the chair. Then off the chair and through the hoop. Each step takes time and patience.

I also agree with Michael, you should get your own butt to a therapist. Focus on yourself and let her work on herself. You can't hurry her process at all, it's basically an area of life where you just aren't in charge. If needed, halt the BDSM dynamic for now. People aren't always ready for what they want.

Best of luck,
Aqua



Morniel -> RE: Would/could this be effective? (11/29/2007 5:26:34 PM)

You know, if you actually, sincerely, seriously, care about this woman then the best thing you can do is get her to a professional -- a PSYCHIATRIST -- who is not only a therapist and psychologist, but must ALSO be a medical doctor....  And then get out of her life.

However, it is evident from everything you post, and choose to quote, that you do not care about HER, you care only about yourself.  You want to be the hero and fix her! You want to get sexual gratification from her whenever you choose!  You want to control her -- because obviously you have no control, whatsoever, over yourself.

This has nothing to do with D/s, BDSM, kinky sex, or anything else.  This has to do with the life and wellbeing of another human creature.

I am appalled that you even THINK that tying her up will help.  Have you not read the posts by those of us in the medical profession, or suffering from similar disorders?  Have you MISSED the part where so many are saying "This is a chemical imbalance that must be/can be treated"?  Have you MISSED the part where so many are saying, "Help her find a psychiatrist"?

There is nothing wrong with this woman that cannot be fixed.

But YOU not only cannot fix her, regardless of your bragging about how you changed her substance abuse, you are HARMING her.  She is not a Do-It-Yourself project from the House and Garden Channel, and there is NOTHING you can do to help her because you are not qualified to recognise her health issues.

So again -- Help her find a qualified professional, and then remove yourself from her life.



LuckyAlbatross -> RE: Would/could this be effective? (11/29/2007 6:41:00 PM)

Your sincerity and desire to help is very nice to see- now STOP, please.

Stop trying to be the solver, the keeper, the guardian.  Start just being her partner.  Start just being supportive.  Start just knowing her inside and out.

If you find you can't do that, then, as Michael said, you really need to look at your own motivations and see how much they are controlling, blinding, and crippling you both.



liminalRapture -> RE: Would/could this be effective? (11/29/2007 9:09:40 PM)

My ex trained me to have panic attacks.  I'm pretty 'normal' according to the DSM, pretty capable of dealing in the world.  I'm not bi-polar or anything else--no meds or addictions to contend with except my morning coffee.  I started panic attacks after 9-11, then they became less often, and then I was having them 2 or 3 times a week.  Sweating really hard, heart beating fast, hard time breathing, and then the hang-over that lasts all day and sometimes till the 2nd day.

My ex didn't want to hear it when I could feel a panic attack coming on (there are a few things that trigger them--I can tell about 2 minutes before I'll be in a full fledged one).  He actually loved me in the space I was in right before I got one--scared, vulnerable, subdued and almost numb, so he would push me there.   I endured them, but it started to numb me out and wear away at my 'bounciness' (which I define as this combination of joy, optimism and confidence that I have).  As my bounciness wore away over time, it wore away all the time, not just in the bedroom where he didn't like it.  (And I should add, once he saw I was in a panic attack, he felt really bad and tried to stop it, but at that point it was always too late.)

And what my ex was doing was VERY mild compared to what you are talking about.  He wanted me to learn to sleep with a leg chained to the bed.  Only my leg.  I could have taken it off with my hands which were free at anytime.  I could have said "safeword" at any time.  Additionally, he wanted some things from me, regarding tone, that were anathema to me.  Fortunately, we realized we weren't compatible for each other before any long-term damage had been done. But I think I had a lot more resources going into the situation than she does.  

What you are talking about terrifies me for her, and for you.



LittleWench -> RE: Would/could this be effective? (11/30/2007 1:29:35 AM)

quote:

Example: If we are in a dark room and I ask her to find an object in the room, she freaks out and goes off about how she can't find it because it's dark. she won't even make an attempt at finding it, she'll just settle on the idea that she can't because it's dark..because it won't be the easiest thing in the world. is this really such a difficult task? certainly not..but, this has happened with her before. Now, say she was bound and gagged and I asked her to complete this very same task. At first, she wouldn't do a damn thing..and I wouldn't pay an ounce of attention to her until she began to make an effort. Once she began to search for the object, I would call her a good girl and verbally walk her through the steps she might take to complete the task. I can't do this at all if she freaks out the entire time.


Why on earth would she perform the task while bound and gagged, if she would not perform it whilst unrestrained?  And how are you going to tie her?  Beat her into submission and then rope her up?  If she is rebellious enough to not look for the object, you expect her to lie complacently to be bound?  Gagging her is no guarantee that she will listen.  Often if someone cannot release a sound, that sound verberates in their head, blocking out anything you would say just as effectively as if she was yelling and screaming over the top of you.  Have you thought those possibilities in regards to your solution?

In your own words you say you wish to know whether this would be beneficial or do harm, because you feel it could go either way... wouldn't you want to err on the side of safety?  Why, if you feel it could go either way, would you want to subject her to something that could push her over the edge?



TwiztdErotic -> RE: Would/could this be effective? (11/30/2007 3:33:38 AM)

Keep in mind that the idea has already been abandoned. However, I'll continue to play along.

quote:

Why on earth would she perform the task while bound and gagged, if she would not perform it whilst unrestrained?

Because that would be the only method available to her to get a reaction from me, which, I believe, is what she looks for.

quote:

And how are you going to tie her? Beat her into submission and then rope her up?

For christ sakes, no. This is something that would have been talked about extensively beforehand and would only have been attempted if she felt she could deal with it. We have talked about it and she does think she could deal, however..it's been abandoned because I do not wish to cause any more harm to her, be it consensual or not.

quote:

In your own words you say you wish to know whether this would be beneficial or do harm, because you feel it could go either way... wouldn't you want to err on the side of safety? Why, if you feel it could go either way, would you want to subject her to something that could push her over the edge?


See above. It was an idea that I had flirted with. Upon weighing risk vs reward, the idea was abandoned.



LittleWench -> RE: Would/could this be effective? (11/30/2007 3:46:02 AM)

I was curious, your puppy's bad behaviour, is it consistent throughout the month, or is it only at certain stages of the month?

I am a hormonal harpy for a week out of every month, giving off many behaviours that you might think are bipolar.  If you woke me for a scruff I would growl then too, probably be inclined to bite, when at any other time of the month I would be fine.  The rest of the month I am obedient, loving, devoted.  I am one of those women that should have been banished to a teepee to ride out her "curse".  Course my Master knew that getting into this, we were vanilla for months prior, and he tolerated many a mood swing. 



TwiztdErotic -> RE: Would/could this be effective? (11/30/2007 4:02:39 AM)

it's about as consistent as any erratic, unpredictable behavior can be. she's consistently inconsistent, I suppose.



LittleWench -> RE: Would/could this be effective? (11/30/2007 4:16:45 AM)

Try plotting her behaviour on a calender.  Is it really erratic? (Not saying that it's not just trying to offer a helpful suggestion).  Also would hate to see the poor girl on drugs for bipolar if all she needs is a little estrogen.  :)

My behaviour when I am hormonal is completely out of character, erratic, I have been called a psychotic bitch, and my personal favourite, a humourless Ice Queen in need of a good humping.  Until my boytoy started plotting my moods on a calender and putting two and two together we would break up every single month because he couldn't stand to be around this argumentative bitchy crazy person that took the place of me.  It helped him to know when he had to learn to take a deep breath and gently make me aware that I was behaving inappropriately.




TwiztdErotic -> RE: Would/could this be effective? (11/30/2007 4:36:29 AM)

quote:

a humourless Ice Queen in need of a good humping

lmao that's hilarious

I will try plotting it out, it certainly can't hurt to look for a pattern.



tulitukka -> RE: Would/could this be effective? (11/30/2007 9:23:43 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: TwiztdErotic

Keep in mind that the idea has already been abandoned. However, I'll continue to play along.

quote:

Why on earth would she perform the task while bound and gagged, if she would not perform it whilst unrestrained?

Because that would be the only method available to her to get a reaction from me, which, I believe, is what she looks for.

Have you considered the possibility that you are wrong?

Have you considered the possibility that she is not looking for a reaction, but it is something else? (If you wonder what could it be then, ref. panic attacks, search for things about bipolar disorder, and so on.) It may well be about her, not about you.



heartsemerge -> RE: Would/could this be effective? (11/30/2007 11:34:52 AM)

quote:

Have you considered the possibility that you are wrong?

of course.
quote:

Have you considered the possibility that she is not looking for a reaction, but it is something else? (If you wonder what could it be then, ref. panic attacks, search for things about bipolar disorder, and so on.) It may well be about her, not about you.

In all likelihood, it's a combination of things.



Statepalace -> RE: Would/could this be effective? (11/30/2007 2:51:18 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TwiztdErotic

I've tried this..it simply doesn't work.
What happens is this: she will continue to freak out so long as I expect her to do as she's been asked. she does this for (at least) two reasons.
1. What I've asked of her isn't something that she can do with minimal effort. ask her to do something that she either does not want to do or is something that she cannot do easily and her whole world crumbles and she panics.



I had to reply to this because it sounds so very much like me. If what you are doing makes "her whole world crumble" and has her in a panic - STOP DOING THAT. You and I can discuss, if you like, what goes on in someones head when that "fail/panic/fail/panic" loop happens, but only AFTER she is not in such a crisis.


Possibly AFTER her ordinary, every day behavior has become stable, THEN you can think about introducing some SMALL elements of the dynamic you are looking for back into the relationship. Until then, STOP IT. She is, from all you have described, wounded in some form or fashion. Until she is better, stop asking her to do ANYTHING but work on herself. ANY energy she turns towards you is energy that she needs to turn inwards and work on herself.

That said, there are a few ways to have control of her. Diet, exercise and rest. As someone that was married to a person with chronic emotional health issues for years, I read bunches about how proper nutrition can influence mood. I suggest you do the same. If you would like to email me I would be happy to list some of the vitamin supplements that I have read to be helpful. This is NOT something that will "fix" her, but if she lives on soda and chips it certainly wouldn't hurt to "make" her eat fruits and veggies and take a few vitamins that you can buy in any supermarket.

You can schedule a visit to a nutritionist, plan out a healthy diet for her and help - HELP NOT PUNISH IF SHE DOESN'T DO IT - her stick to it.

You can schedule her Dr visits, etc. What everyone has said about getting her evaluated by a professional stands true.

Perhaps it might also help to change your view of the dynamic to more "Daddy" and less "Master" until she is better.

Something to also consider. You picked up a puppy from the pound. You did not get a healthy puppy. I would advise actually going to volunteer, if you have the time, at the pound or at a local rescue organization. Ask to work with the abused dogs. Look at their reactions. Sometimes taking away the "human" face of the results of trauma lets you stop saying "she should" do this or that and realize that many of the responses are instinctive. Barring actually volunteering, pick up some books on animal behavior and training. People are not that terribly different when it comes to conditioning response. You wouldn't try teaching a recently rescued dog to sit. You would take it to the vet, feed it, pet it and do NOTHING to further traumatize it until it was healthy again. Try to keep that in mind as you work with your puppy.

As for you - well hell, I can't throw stones. I had the same issues with needing, literally needing to fix broken people. I poured myself into someone else for years because he was going to ride his motorcycle into a wall if I didn't. I've since fixed that part of me, but it took years in relationship hell to figure out how. Get some therapy for yourself as well. A kink friendly therapist would be a great start for the both of you. If you need a list let me know.



CalifChick -> RE: Would/could this be effective? (11/30/2007 3:22:04 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TwiztdErotic

she will continue to freak out so long as I expect her to do as she's been asked.


Your answer is right there, you said it yourself.  Stop asking her to do anything.  Remove all traces of BDSM from your interactions and let the girl get fixed without your "help".

She may tell you she wants it, but she cannot handle it.

Just like the old joke... "doc it hurts when I do this"... "so stop doing that".  It applies here.

Cali



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