RE: "Mortgage aid plan sparks hope and resentment"

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joiduvie -> RE: "Mortgage aid plan sparks hope and resentment" (12/2/2007 6:27:08 PM)
The bail out will only effect 8% of the people involved. It is being offered at conforming limits and the people must qualify. It is a financial night mare that will do no more than issue a band aide. This is a cycle, it happens, it will change when it reaches a level keel. The bigger picture is, that no matter what line of work you are in, no matter how much money you put down, no matter how responsible you have been, the loss of an estimated 300,000 jobs nationwide in the lending industry will hurt you. It will either hurt in money spent on your line of work, or the line of work that supports yours. This going to hurt alot of people who have done nothing wrong. It is not the programs offered that caused it, it is the people who signed, or cheated, or did not plan ahead. The market is used to a certain percentage having a change in finances and not being able to aford their obligations any longer, thats why loans are priced above par and prepayment penalties are offered. But the media coverage and its biased view has hindered recovery in any sector of the market, no matter if you are an aplus borrower who has equity.

popeye1250 -> RE: "Mortgage aid plan sparks hope and resentment" (12/2/2007 7:30:27 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: joiduvie ARM's are not the problem it is the people. I personally find the amount of blatant fraud i am forced to politely deal with offensive. You report it to the FBI but not one damn thing happens. It takes seven years usually after reporting and providing evidence of fraud for a case to even be concerned. It is not just broker's realtors, title companies, and appraisers who perpitrate this, it is borrowers to. The vast majority of the fraud i see on a daily basis originates with the borrower. So before you say it is the ARM ask someone who actually does this for a living for a broader picture, not everything is what you read. If you want more info, i have tons i am bombarded with articles from the industry on a daily basis. The automated systems on fixed rate mortgages have the highest level of foreclosures around, while ARM's are just reported in the media more, the problem is most of the ARM's that default are to people who were not A paper borrowers, that means their credit deed not meet that of someone who is likely to pay when duress hits. Joi, sounds like it's pretty bad in Calif. I'm in Myrtle Beach, SC and we've slowed but not like Calif, the N.E. or Fla. According to the large Moving Van companies S.C. is a "going to" state not a "moving out of" state like N.Y., Mass., or Fla. People are still moving here and you can tell because the rental truck lots are full from people dropping trucks off when they move here. If you're up North it's hard to get a "one-way" rental truck. They all want them returned. I bought here 3 years ago. A 3 b/r, 2 bath condo on a golf course for $84k. Then another for $97k and they just sold one two doors down 2 weeks ago for $139k. We're lucky here because we didn't see the rediculous price increases of the last 5-7 years in other parts of the country.

velvetears -> RE: "Mortgage aid plan sparks hope and resentment" (12/2/2007 7:41:00 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie I find the saddest state of this situation is the bitterness it is bringing out in people. i agree... telling of people and very sad imo. quote: ArizonaSunSwitch Oh good god...homeless means you get wet when god decides to take a piss. If you have 4 walls and a roof over your head no matter the circumstances you are not homeless. i disagree, that is when you have temporary shelter till you find a place you call home. Why do you think they call them homeless shelters and hot homes for the homeless. i don't expect a person like you to understand, maybe one day life will hit you hard and you will understand.

subfever -> RE: "Mortgage aid plan sparks hope and resentment" (12/3/2007 12:27:03 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth Personal or corporate, you want your tax dollars used to fund a bailout? Are you all homeowners? Homeowners, are you all past due in your payments? Were you all "forced" under duress to commit to houses and corresponding mortgages that you couldn't afford? Are you delusional about your financial capabilities or just stupid? People fail because that was the most likely consequence of their own actions. They made commitment and plans that had a 1% chance of success and never considered the consequences of the other 99%, or most likely result. Now they want your dollars to bail them out. They want dollars from the people who are renting, or bought a house within their means. They want tax dollars from people who made a decision on the 99% side of probability. I say - let them fail! Failure is a good tool for learning. The expectation of having a someone come to their rescue generated the growing desire to create a 'nanny state'. Making a mistake should result in consequences. The childish pointing to others being bailed out by the government has created an environment of entitlement. Hard work has been replaced by the expectation of getting something for nothing. Trained at a young age when every participant gets a trophy, where no child left behind means that the whole class works at the slowest pace. The social engineers would say everyone finished first. To me it looks like everyone finished last. The lesson was learned though. Why try, why work, why worry; they'll always be someone, some entity, some bureaucracy there providing the safety net. Now this generation of homeowners wants and expects others to foot the bill for their failure. In an election year, I'm sure they'll get their programs; insuring the re-election of the political status quo. If you support these programs and the politicians running over each other to pass legislation; try not to be hypocritical and condemn them the next time some corporation gets a similar bailout. It is what you, the electorate, obviously want. A mommy/daddy that when the child 'strikes out', wipes their tears, pats them on the head, and says "here's your trophy for a nice swing!" How do you expect people to behave after years of indoctrination by the PTB? Intelligently? Independently? Don't hold your breath! Like most issues, this current mortgage debacle is not a black or white situation. There has been some corruption and greed on both sides of the equation. I've personally witnessed the marketing of Option Arms and other non-conventional loans to unsophisticated borrowers. I've also seen loan brokers and originators lie to borrowers. And trust me when I tell you that only the minority of borrowers have the fortitude and capacity to fully read and comprehend the dozens of forms at a closing before they sign each form. I think it's a mistake to believe that everyone possesses the same capacity that you do. Does this mean that I desire a bail-out? No, I'm not a believer in band-aid solutions for non life-threatening situations. Instead, I prefer to focus on the cause, and change inefficient and/or corrupt systems entirely. Would some innocent people temporarily suffer as a result? Yes.

UtopianRanger -> RE: "Mortgage aid plan sparks hope and resentment" (12/3/2007 1:10:41 AM)
Just a few general comments: There's already been a bailout: Every time the PPT, ala ''The President's working group on financial markets'' infuses Federal Reserve money into the market after a blow out, the dollar's value has been diminished. Hyper-inflation caused by a liquidity-pump--to save the markets because they're heavily leveraged in the sub-prime market -- is essentially a hidden tax on ALL of the American people. To save the markets but not save the people is complete hypocrisy. And by the way.....Merc's argument--as always--is a good one. Its only problem is that it hasn't been equally applied. - R PS - CountryWide - Is not on your side [;)]

Mercnbeth -> RE: "Mortgage aid plan sparks hope and resentment" (12/3/2007 8:25:34 AM)
quote: How do you expect people to behave after years of indoctrination by the PTB? Intelligently? Independently? Don't hold your breath! fever, My expectation is the same as those waiting in line for their 'entitlement' - somebody else will fix the problem I caused - and someone else will pay for it. My rationalization is that as the merry-go-round rotates someday I may get a change at a government provided 'gold ring'. The problem is there are more and more people riding and fewer paying for and supplying the gold rings. Contributory is that nobody wants to be the first one off the ride; influenced by the hawkers selling tickets. The "vote for me and I'll get you money!" crowd is elected and re-elected time and time again. I don't think it coincidental that the legal industry supplies most of the candidates. It's where the "it's not your fault - sue someone" mentality originated. . quote: Instead, I prefer to focus on the cause, and change inefficient and/or corrupt systems entirely. Would some innocent people temporarily suffer as a result? Yes. "Suffering", similar to failure, isn't always a bad thing. When you suffer and know only your efforts will stop your suffering, you're more likely to work toward avoiding that which caused you to suffer. Entitlement programs initiated by social engineers have failed based upon their own reporting if not personal observation. The "war on poverty", was initiated by President Johnson and Congress in the 60's. Its expanded beyond any expectation with virtually limitless funds. Yet current social engineers claim more people are poor and going to sleep hungry (obviously they don't visit and see the size and spending of people shopping as Walmart) in the US. Normally that would point to a FAILED program - not one where more money needs to be spent. Any business reporting similar results would be closed. Yet these are but crumbs compared to the biggest receivers of 'welfare'. The corporate tax incentives and subsidiaries paid to growers of everything from tobacco and wheat, to milk producing farms were rationalized to stabilize prices and help the 'family farm'. What a great opportunity for all the 'families' running Cisco foods. Lee Iaccoca got Chrysler bailed out with government money. It was thought a prudent act to avoid closing plants and putting millions out of work. But precedent was set, the corporate line formed and has never ended. I guess if the same philosophy was in place in the 20's the buggy whip industry would still be viable. That's the tragedy of the entitlement and "good intent" side. The results they generate make social conditions worse. What's the incentive of inventing an alternative to a gas driving automobile when the auto industry gets money to maintain the status quo? I compare it to the same incentive for an intelligent student to strive when at the end of the year - the biggest loser goof-off is given the same diploma and isn't "left behind". Corporations and individuals use the same learning curve. The "secret" contained in Donal Trump's book of success? Borrow enough, more than you can use, need, or afford; so that the Banks can't afford to let you fail. If the Bank is in danger of failing the government will refund the Bank. YOU are the source of those government payouts. Meanwhile look at the lives of the 'leaders' from both sides. They don't care about 'income tax' because they haven't earned income for so long they have no idea how much of a 'regular' persons work goes to paying taxes. The 1% income tax, temporary and only impacting less than 10% of US citizens when initiated not takes, on average 25%. From that 'net' you pay sales tax 8.25% here in SoCal. Every gallon of gas is taxed an additional $.55 here. Add all these redistribution of wealth programs together and on average an average man gets to spend or keep less than 50% of the money he earns; except those that can charge gas to their company credit card, purchase items with a tax exempt certificate, and take $1.00 as salary, but get rights to 10,000 shares of stock every quarter. Not one current presidential candidate earns a salary or feels the impact of these facts. Its a reason they'd much rather make it important to call their opponents names, put up fake arraignment posters and laugh, or make some lame senator trying to get a blow job in a airport restroom a campaign issue. As long as they can manipulate and make name calling more important than issues; you don't notice that although representing political parties with different names; they belong to the same country clubs, attended the same universities, and know the same secret fraternity hand-shake. We deserve the mocking laughter they must also share.

subfever -> RE: "Mortgage aid plan sparks hope and resentment" (12/4/2007 6:01:34 AM)
There's no doubt in my mind that the PTB has perfected the art of using fear and greed to manipulate the masses. Knowing this, I want less government intervention, not more. You seem to be one of the few people here who understands this. For those who want more government intervention, well... my guess is that they'll eventually come to realize that they got what they deserved. The problem is, they're gonna drag us along with them. And by then, the hole we've dug for ourselves will be too deep to climb out of... assuming it isn't already. quote: As long as they can manipulate and make name calling more important than issues; you don't notice that although representing political parties with different names; they belong to the same country clubs, attended the same universities, and know the same secret fraternity hand-shake. We deserve the mocking laughter they must also share. We most certainly do.

BeingChewsie -> RE: "Mortgage aid plan sparks hope and resentment" (12/4/2007 9:21:26 AM)
It is very unfortunate when people lose their homes to foreclosure. I do not support the government bailing them out. Especially people who bought homes at teaser rates with the idea that down the road they would just re-fi. It was shortsighted and ill planned. Most do not become homeless, they become tenants, which is what they would of remained if it had not been for the teaser rates and ARM's. It was the conversion of their ARM that did them in. They never could of afforded to buy the homes they bought without the teaser rates. People who lose jobs or get divorced or any other unfortunate circumstane is sad but it happens. You just might have to go live with a relative for while to find a new job, develop a new career, get back on your feet. This plan doesn't cover you nor is about you at all. It is for those with teaser rates who couldn't afford the place to begin with to get a freeze for a time. It is foolish it is just going to prolong the problem. 3,4, 5 years down the road when these freezes end it will be an even worse mess. The homes they live in are not affordable housing for them(if they were we wouldn't be having this discussion). People will just continue to mismanage their income, property values are still going to drop so they will not be able to re-fi but nobody cares because they will be able to get that 50 inch LCD TV for Xmas afterall. Your housing payments should not be more than 25% of your monthly income. For many of these people their mortgage eats up way more than that. They can't afford it. They couldn't afford it when they bought it. Tough lesson but one worth learning..

subfever -> RE: "Mortgage aid plan sparks hope and resentment" (12/4/2007 2:52:43 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BeingChewsie Your housing payments should not be more than 25% of your monthly income. For many of these people their mortgage eats up way more than that. They can't afford it. They couldn't afford it when they bought it. Tough lesson but one worth learning.. It's 28% front-end DTI (mortgage payment debt-to-income ratio) for a conventional loan. And up until just a year ago, there were many subprime lenders allowing front-end DTI of 50%.

pahunkboy -> RE: "Mortgage aid plan sparks hope and resentment" (12/5/2007 8:20:37 AM)
as much as we all want to think that it is all about mainstreet- it is in fact about wall street. on the cnbc channel blog- 1000 posters call it a bailout. so what do you think? wall street or church street.

Sinergy -> RE: "Mortgage aid plan sparks hope and resentment" (12/5/2007 8:34:52 AM)
General reply. Good points MercNBeth. I have been waiting 2 years to even start looking for a house to buy because I do not want to pay for cheap property at inflated rates. I dont really want my tax dollars used to help out people who 5 years ago took out interest only mortgages, found their jobs offshored, and now cannot refinance and must pay the balloon payment. Ya know, doing that sort of thing is gambling and hoping for the best. From the bank's side, ya know, investing your money in giving somebody a mortgage which assumes in 5 years they can refinance is gambling and hoping for the best. Suck it up. Have a good cry over your poor individual or corporate judgement. Write off your gambling losses. Try again. I dont have much sympathy for either of them. I have owned two houses in my life. The last one I let my ex have my equity in it to let my kids have a place to grow up, and to not pay almost $1000 a month in spousal support. It was a good deal for everybody. They can try to keep the market inflated, but this will not spur the housing market. People like me who could afford to buy a house but are unwilling to really spend a lot of money for one will simply wait until the market continues it's crash. Or will do what I plan to do in the next few months and purchase a home in an area that crashed 3 years ago. I can wait. Sinergy

Mercnbeth -> RE: "Mortgage aid plan sparks hope and resentment" (12/5/2007 9:41:49 AM)
Thanks Sinergy! quote: The last one I let my ex have my equity in it to let my kids have a place to grow up, and to not pay almost $1000 a month in spousal support. It was a good deal for everybody. Although one of my kids was in college and my other just about to start - I share this history with you. It was a great purging experience which I draw upon every time I have a decision to make between monetary gain and compromising my integrity or emotional well being. No possession can take the place of happiness or contentment. quote: Or will do what I plan to do in the next few months and purchase a home in an area that crashed 3 years ago. I can wait. I'd say hang in there and wait longer unless your "ideal" place comes available. The people I talk with, having more cash and connections than I can ever hope to have, say that although there will be a small upswing this spring and summer when all the incumbents push through programs to buy votes. The bill will come due next winter and prices will dramatically fall further.

Mercnbeth -> RE: "Mortgage aid plan sparks hope and resentment" (12/6/2007 4:34:45 PM)
President Bush today pushed this plan in the shadow of the White House tree lighting ceremony. How down home... quote: WASHINGTON (Reuters) - President George W. Bush announced a plan on Thursday aimed at slowing a wave of home loan foreclosures that has threatened to knock the U.S. economy into recession and rattled investors worldwide. Bush said the plan, hammered out by the U.S. Treasury Department in talks with mortgage industry leaders, was not intended to "bail out" lenders, speculators or those who knew they could not afford the homes they bought. Source: http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20071206/bs_nm/usa_subprime_dc_17 Even if you believe the propaganda of "helping the average homeowner" it doesn't look like many "average" people would be attending a meeting between the Treasury Department and "mortgage industry leaders". Some inside information - short version... (The details would bore you to tears and serve only to distract.) When loans go into default they become unqualified receivables. If the amount of default is larger than the loss reserves set, more capital must go into the loss reserve. That capital comes from retained earnings and lowers corporate assets. Most senior management bonuses are based upon income and growth. Senior officers of Banks and other Financial service corporations just got their bonuses insured by President Bush. Any of you, like me, who refused a teaser rate and instead chose a more expensive fixed rate, feel like an idiot? How about that house you REALLY wanted but cost more than you could afford going to someone who didn't care what tomorrow brought and got it instead of you? All you in apartments seeing this correction of the real estate market as an opportunity for prices to fall and get more realistic - sorry! Your personal integrity and self accountability is a misplaced and unappreciated by politicians running a government who's goal is create reliance on the government NOT personal accountability. You, my friend, are being driven into extinction anyway - accept it! And the best is how they can fool many, if not most, in believing this is a good thing! Rewarding failure is cause for celebration. Those "saved" from default are getting, in actuality, nothing more but the privilege of living beyond their means for a while longer, at least until after this election cycle. Meanwhile the Corporate beneficiaries, have avoided having to have their balance sheets reflect their poor management; will be rewarding management with Christmas bonuses larger than the very mortgages being preserved. Coming during an election cycle the Democratic side raised the anti. Their reaction: quote: Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton of New York, the party front-runner, said in a Wall Street speech that the plan expected to be unveiled today by President Bush was inadequate. She proposed a foreclosure moratorium of at least 90 days for distressed holders of sub-prime mortgages who live in their own homes. She suggested that if investors did not agree to the moratorium, as well as a five-year freeze on mortgage rate hikes, she would propose legislation to order the changes. John Edwards, the former North Carolina senator, upped the ante by calling for a seven-year freeze on rates for families with mortgage problems and creation of a federally financed "home rescue fund" to help low-income homeowners negotiate more sustainable mortgages. Source: http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/politics/la-na-dems6dec06,1,1519128.story?coll=la-news-politics-national&track=crosspromo I place value on consistency and clarity. Mr. Edwards, champion ambulance chaser and advocate for wealth distribution as long at its not his; deserves kudos for being so forthright in his goal for every worker in the US to send 100% of their income to the government and let the politician's decide how to spend it. Carl Marx would have Mr. Edward's picture on the wall were he alive today! Kool-Aid drinking begins soon in Iowa. Go ahead - PLEASE try and convince me of candidate worthy to support. You want a really impossible task? Which incumbent deserves reelection at any level!

Griswold -> RE: "Mortgage aid plan sparks hope and resentment" (12/6/2007 4:45:42 PM)
This is completely fucked up. Microsoft just the other day said...(effectively) "if you buy a corrupted (or stolen) copy, you can purchase a legitemate copy for half price". All you need do is, when the "you're stealing" screen comes up....agree to buy a legitemate copy, pay 1/2 of the retail price...and you and Microsoft are all good. That tells me that, considering the fact that I buy 25 computers a year...I should buy 1 actual copy....put that copy on all the remainder...and wait for Msft to tell me I'm a crook...and then.... Write a check. Savings: $3,250.00 annually. Likewise, mortgages. I bought my mortgage (and house) legitemately. Now, multiples of people are going to get out of their mortgage payments for the next 5 years because the feds think that they got fucked? You're getting fucked. I'm getting fucked. This is a fucked up deal. Everyone that paid their bills on time.... (Is getting fucked). It ain't right.

MzMia -> RE: "Mortgage aid plan sparks hope and resentment" (12/6/2007 7:36:18 PM)
I am enjoying this thread immensely. Almost everyone is affected by what is going on in the mortgage industry, one way or another. As someone that recently sold my home {without a realtor}, I am thanking GOD daily that I was able to do what I needed to do at this time. My decision to sell, had nothing to do with what is going on with the interest rates, so many of us are caught up in this crap, because we are doing what people normally do. {Buy and sell homes} Again, most of us are all affected in one way or another. If nothing else, if the prices of these over inflated homes come down, many people will benefit. I appreciate most of the well thought out and interesting points made here. We all need to buckle our seat belts, it looks like it is going to be a bumpy ride.

MzMia -> RE: "Mortgage aid plan sparks hope and resentment" (12/6/2007 7:45:58 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: joiduvie The bail out will only effect 8% of the people involved. It is being offered at conforming limits and the people must qualify. It is a financial night mare that will do no more than issue a band aide. This is a cycle, it happens, it will change when it reaches a level keel. The bigger picture is, that no matter what line of work you are in, no matter how much money you put down, no matter how responsible you have been, the loss of an estimated 300,000 jobs nationwide in the lending industry will hurt you. It will either hurt in money spent on your line of work, or the line of work that supports yours. This going to hurt alot of people who have done nothing wrong. It is not the programs offered that caused it, it is the people who signed, or cheated, or did not plan ahead. The market is used to a certain percentage having a change in finances and not being able to aford their obligations any longer, thats why loans are priced above par and prepayment penalties are offered. But the media coverage and its biased view has hindered recovery in any sector of the market, no matter if you are an aplus borrower who has equity. If it is only going to affect 8% of the people, I am not seeing how that is going to make a dent in what is going on. I agree that there is going to be a loss of jobs. The up side is that prices of home repairs and remodeling will be going down. The market appears to be correcting itself, those over inflated home prices were ridiculous, and we all should have known that the prices HAD to come down.

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