RE: Sperm Donor Ordered to Pay Lesbians Child Support (Full Version)

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Stephann -> RE: Sperm Donor Ordered to Pay Lesbians Child Support (12/4/2007 9:16:41 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: laurell3

We do have one.  It's that the state can reject couples for adoption based on sexual orientation.


That doesn't remotely deal with the issue of surrogate paternity, or when a gay woman visits an anonymous sperm bank (the women in this case were simply friends with the father in question.)

Stephan




ClosetSinner -> RE: Sperm Donor Ordered to Pay Lesbians Child Support (12/4/2007 9:24:35 PM)

I personally feel this woman was wrong.  She and her partner ended okay fine.  You kept the children, okay fine.  The partner hadn't adopted either of the children, okay also fine.  SO now you're a single parent.  You made the decision that if anything happened to your relationship you were going to be the "single" parent.  Just because there happens to be a sperm donor somewhere does not mean you're going to go wallet diving just because you made a mistake.

My cousin is involved in something like this with my best friend.  She got pregnant with his kid.  He paid her the money for an abortion and she had her first check-up instead.  He told her he wanted nothing to do with the child, but for some reason didn't sign over his rights once the baby was born.  She told him not to worry about it that she'd do it on her own.  Fast forward a year later, her mother is getting engaged and wants her daughter (my best friend) to get a place of her own.  Now she's suing my cousin for child support.  The messed up part, once paternity is established in this state, whether or not you sign over your rights, the mother can still legally sue you for child support, and in most cases get it.

I don't know how the law works in the UK, but personally I feel this woman should suck it up, work another job if she has to, and leave this man alone.




laurell3 -> RE: Sperm Donor Ordered to Pay Lesbians Child Support (12/4/2007 9:26:04 PM)

 
Stephen,
I'm not actually that familiar with sperm banks, however, I do believe that the law supports that actual anonymous sperm donors are off the hook.

I'm not arguing that it's not a mess, it is.  I agree it doesn't address what people are doing, however, it is the law and they are not taking it fully into consideration when making these arrangements. Your parental rights are either intact or not.  If they are, you are not only obligated for child support but also liable for some acts of your child.  Until the State recognizes that gay couples can be a suitable permanent arrangement in the form or adoption, surrogacy, or other permanent arrangement that is in the best interests of the child, intentional parenting of a child (ie: not a sperm bank) leaves the original parental rights intact.  Oddly however, I have seen a single homosexual parent who was a previous foster parent get approval for adoption.  I should again caveat to say the law here might not be the same in all states and certainly not in other countries.

To all the posts about the women it may very well be the case that she was in the position to ask for governmental benefits on behalf of the child and had to provide the information to get them.  The state does not require consent by the custodial parent to sue the other biological parent for child support.




Muttling -> RE: Sperm Donor Ordered to Pay Lesbians Child Support (12/4/2007 9:33:33 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: laurell3


Stephen,
I'm not actually that familiar with sperm banks, however, I do believe that the law supports that actual anonymous sperm donors are off the hook.

I'm not arguing that it's not a mess, it is.  I agree it doesn't address what people are doing, however, it is the law and they are not taking it fully into consideration when making these arrangements. Your parental rights are either intact or not.  If they are, you are not only obligated for child support but also liable for some acts of your child.  Until the State recognizes that gay couples can be a suitable permanent arrangement in the form or adoption, surrogacy, or other permanent arrangement that is in the best interests of the child, intentional parenting of a child (ie: not a sperm bank) leaves the original parental rights intact.  Oddly however, I have seen a single homosexual parent who was a previous foster parent get approval for adoption.  I should again caveat to say the law here might not be the same in all states and certainly not in other countries.

To all the posts about the women it may very well be the case that she was in the position to ask for governmental benefits on behalf of the child and had to provide the information to get them.  The state does not require consent by the custodial parent to sue the other biological parent for child support.



As I understand American law (and I could be totally wrong), you are completely correct.   I think the sperm donor should be completely off the hook.

However, I think her partner should be totally on the hook.  I think the law should provide that BOTH individuals sign up as parents OR one individual sign up as parents.   If she got knocked up as a result of traditional intercourse, then there should be some paperwork stating he was JUST a donor and the parents are ______.    We need to set this crap out pre-conception and make it hold even if the relationship doesn't.




popeye1250 -> RE: Sperm Donor Ordered to Pay Lesbians Child Support (12/4/2007 11:53:43 PM)

Sheesh, I don't even know any gay people.
It seems like everyone has "gay friends" but me.
Hey, I know what to do, Owner59, will you be my "gay friend?"




LadyEllen -> RE: Sperm Donor Ordered to Pay Lesbians Child Support (12/5/2007 2:47:14 AM)

there is a move here now to enable revelation of the identity of the donor, even if the donor gave anonymously at a sperm bank. This apparently is to do with medical developments in detecting/treating genetically inheritable medical conditions.

this obviously raises the possibility of the donor being held responsible for his "indirect" offspring - and with the way the Child Support Agency works here, more than merely a possibility.

the outcome will be, to cause donors to stop donating for fear of the consequences.

E




Politesub53 -> RE: Sperm Donor Ordered to Pay Lesbians Child Support (12/5/2007 4:14:39 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

there is a move here now to enable revelation of the identity of the donor, even if the donor gave anonymously at a sperm bank. This apparently is to do with medical developments in detecting/treating genetically inheritable medical conditions.

this obviously raises the possibility of the donor being held responsible for his "indirect" offspring - and with the way the Child Support Agency works here, more than merely a possibility.

the outcome will be, to cause donors to stop donating for fear of the consequences.

E


As the law stands, the child support agency consider anyone being a donor, at a licensed sperm bank to be exempt from support. The man involved gave his sperm as a friend, rather than use a fertility clinic. If that means that he simply had sex with the woman until she was pregnant, what was he thinking. The onus was on him to check the law for himself.




stella41b -> RE: Sperm Donor Ordered to Pay Lesbians Child Support (12/5/2007 4:48:44 AM)

My viewpoint here isn't going to be popular.. but this is how it strikes me.

The arrangement was very clear. It doesn't matter whether they had a relationship of some sort or not. I mean, if you are breeding dogs and you sell someone a puppy, I would assume you wouldn't just hand over the puppy to the first person who came to your door. You would probably want to know how the relationship forms between puppy and owner and how the puppy adapts to its new home. Consider that for a sperm donor and a child, which to me cannot be compared to a puppy, that concern is increased tenfold.

I see something sinister here, and I don't like it. What I don't like is the way the woman was coerced by the CSA to seek maintenance for the child under threat of loss of income. This not only smacks of Soviet style totalitarianism - rules are rules are rules - but is also a clear and shining example of how modern government has regressed to 19th century thinking. This clearly sets a new sinister precedent - the choice between children and being on welfare benefit.

But here we're not talking about someone playing the system, we're not talking about someone having lots of children to get more in welfare benefit. We're not talking about economic immigrants pretending to be refugees or asylum seekers. We're talking here about ONE child who is British of British parentage.

What is the most important issue here? We'd say the welfare of the child. But no, it's not. Is it then the family unit? No. Wrong again. Is this about money then? Yes, of course it is. Are the interests of the child the most important? No, of course not. Of the family unit? Again, no. This is Britain, a country where yet again we see another example of where the interests of the government, a corporation or some other organization take clear precedence over the interests and rights of the citizen. Why? To save the British government £20 a week.

Now we can go on and argue all day long about parental responsibility and single parents and so on, but this isn't to me the major issue.

I don't care how the media presents this - we either live in a democratic society or we don't. This isn't a grey area to me, it's black and white. Democracy to me is for the people, by the people, and a state which has an obligation to its citizens and such a thing known as state responsibility.

The CSA or Child Support Agency is a special department of the Department of Social Security who's sole purpose is to track down the absent fathers of children of single mothers and force them to pay an arbitrary amount of child maintenance for their children with the sole purpose of getting that single mother off benefits and forcing her into employment. It was set up under Thatcher and is run rather like the Nazis ran the Gestapo, they have their own rules, their rules take precedence, no ifs, no buts, don't give a shit about what circumstances or incomes they come across, the father is tracked down, they decide how much is to be paid, and they have powers to get that money out of the father whether he's got the money or not.

This was set up after the social phenomenon of young women getting pregnant and becoming a single mother just to get somewhere to live off the local authority, which in a society of free market property values was a viable alternative. This comes after years of local authorities telling young people "we cannot consider you for housing unless you've got kids".

Put yourself into their situation. You're young, you're poor, you don't want to have to live with your parents all your life, and you're female, you're not very emotionally mature, and you got a local council telling you that if you got a kid you'll probably get a flat if you're prepared to wait. What are you going to do?

Maybe if Thatcher hadn't sold off all the local authority housing stock dirt cheap trying to raise cash from the citizen to put into the control of banks and their corporate and financial services frineds there would probably have never been a 'single mother' phenomena, there would still be access to cheap social housing, there might not be a need for the CSA and you never know, there might still be a Britiah workforce rather willing to take minimum wages just to work.

But no, this is Britain. Not only do we have a talent for bumbling, fraudulent and incompetent corporate businessmen but we've gone through more than two decades strongly influenced by two really brilliant politicians who walked the walk and talked the talk, but who were unfortunately at the complete mercy of the incompetent idiots and assholes in the City - Thatcher, the iron Lady grocer's daughter and Blair, the well-meaning, frightfully posh but middle class wanting-to-be-cool-and-oh-so-trendy Balir.

I'm sorry, but until I see a British government who's prepared to invest and be responsible to the interests of the people who elect it and start respecting democracy (in the traditional sense) whenever I hear a politician talking about 'child poverty' I'm just going to assume that they're totally confused as to what is a mouth and what is an asshole.

Just my $1.02




BeingChewsie -> RE: Sperm Donor Ordered to Pay Lesbians Child Support (12/5/2007 6:19:46 AM)

 

I don't think it sets any kind of precedent. He never gave up his parental rights. He had contact with the child over the years, he sent cards and signed them from "dad". He should of given up his parental rights. There were ways to legally do this that they chose to not follow. I feel for him but he should of never had contact. He will probably get what he has to pay lowered on the basis of the amount of contact but he added to his own burden here.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Stephann

See, one of the major issues I have with this is that it sets a very bad precedent. 

Suppose a woman gives her son up for adoption at the age of 17.  A loving family adopts the child, and goes on to raise him as their own.  At the age of 27, the mother dies in a car crash.  Should the father be entitled to sue the birth mother for child support?  After all, it's her child....

Eventually, a social system will be established to incorporate gay and lesbian couples to have the rights to raise children as 'their own.'  This would necessitate that, like the mother who gave her son up for adoption, a legal system that acknowledges that when a decision has been made to accept paternity, and release the original birth parent from legal/financial responsibility, that it won't be reversed; at the very least for the good of the child.

The child is certainly benefiting financially, but is he/she benefiting morally?  How would you feel growing up being told you have a father who pays for things, but you're not allowed to meet him?

Stephan





popeye1250 -> RE: Sperm Donor Ordered to Pay Lesbians Child Support (12/5/2007 6:55:43 AM)

I was a sperm donor in 1986 in Maine when I was in the USCG.
I went through all the testing etc.
I was on the way back to the barracks after being told I'd passed all prerequesite tests and told that I'd be given $30 per "donation" and I thought to myself; "Damn, and all these years I was doing it for nothing and now they want to pay me for it?"




Sinergy -> RE: Sperm Donor Ordered to Pay Lesbians Child Support (12/5/2007 8:04:59 AM)


He should roll over and pay support.  He should also sue for custodial rights and visitation.  He should demand to be listed as the child's legal parent.  He should demand to be a part of that child's life.

I suspect the couple who used his sperm failed to really think this all the way through.  When hit with the flip side of the paddle they want to spank him with, I suspect they will drop their claim.

Sinergy




Stephann -> RE: Sperm Donor Ordered to Pay Lesbians Child Support (12/5/2007 8:41:47 AM)

In the specific situation, I do understand all of the arguments for him to have some responsibility in the child's life.  I honestly don't consider the Sun to be the most reputable source of information; they intentionally post 'he said/she said' stories, with the truth somewhere in between.  She says he tried to play dad, He says they increasingly requested (as friends) to help babysit.  If I were the guy, and I got a call from my lesbian friend, saying "hey, could you watch little Stephan for the night?  I have to visit my sick mother in Chattanooga."  I'd feel pretty compelled to say "Sure" whether it was my son or not.

The deeper issue, though, is one of the 'rights' of a gay couple to raise children.  If a gay couple wishes to enjoy the 'right' to have children, there comes a reciprocal responsibility that once they have established themselves as a functioning, permanent family unit (i.e. marriage and/or civil union), then a subsequent divorce or separation should be treated in the same fashion as in heterosexual couples.  For this couple to cry foul, and demand child support from the 'father' is a pretty heavy blow against the assertion gay couples make that they are just as capable of raising a child as any heterosexual couple. 

Personally, I do believe gay couples are capable of raising children in a happy, healthy, stable environment no differently than heterosexual couples.  Upon separation of that couple, they should bear the same responsibilities.  In this case, I see the 'mothers' as having their cake, and eating it too; both at the government and this sap's expense.

Stephan




FangsNfeet -> RE: Sperm Donor Ordered to Pay Lesbians Child Support (12/5/2007 7:18:19 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Sheesh, I don't even know any gay people.
It seems like everyone has "gay friends" but me.
Hey, I know what to do, Owner59, will you be my "gay friend?"


Just watch the series "Queer as Folk" You can get it easily on Net Flix and whip through the 5 seasons in a little over two months. The series happens to include a lesbian couple raising a child and then having another one by a different donor. The show really did a good job pointing out things to think about before jumping in.




NaiveTempest -> RE: Sperm Donor Ordered to Pay Lesbians Child Support (12/5/2007 11:45:25 PM)

If the lesbian couple what to raise a child and then spit instead of going after the biological father, why not go after the other partner? Did not that partner agree to parent the child? Why get money from a man who was nice enough to do you a favor? Get the BITCH who left you holding the BAG! I am single parent I know about doing what a mother has to do and I still would do this. I'd go after that bitch who left me.




Muttling -> RE: Sperm Donor Ordered to Pay Lesbians Child Support (12/6/2007 1:42:39 AM)

I respect and understand ALL of the statments made above.   I also stand by my statement that it should be a very straight forward legal thing.   If the man wants to be a sperm donor for the sole purpose of donorship, it should be very easy for him to do so.  He shouldn't recieve payment for doing it (IMO), but he should have no rights or responsibilities either.

If the gay couple wants to declare themselves as parents, then it should be easy for BOTH parents (women or men) to do so.  They should be held accountable just as a traditional set of parents are held accountable and should have the same rights as well.


The situation in question is very complex as for a variety of reasons that have been described above and it's something for the courts to decide.  In my personal opinion, all three individuals should be held responsible for meeting the needs of the child and visitation should be based on the best interests of the child's emotional well being.




Politesub53 -> RE: Sperm Donor Ordered to Pay Lesbians Child Support (12/6/2007 3:44:37 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: stella41b
I don't care how the media presents this - we either live in a democratic society or we don't. This isn't a grey area to me, it's black and white. Democracy to me is for the people, by the people, and a state which has an obligation to its citizens and such a thing known as state responsibility.

The CSA or Child Support Agency is a special department of the Department of Social Security who's sole purpose is to track down the absent fathers of children of single mothers and force them to pay an arbitrary amount of child maintenance for their children with the sole purpose of getting that single mother off benefits and forcing her into employment. It was set up under Thatcher and is run rather like the Nazis ran the Gestapo, they have their own rules, their rules take precedence, no ifs, no buts, don't give a shit about what circumstances or incomes they come across, the father is tracked down, they decide how much is to be paid, and they have powers to get that money out of the father whether he's got the money or not.

This was set up after the social phenomenon of young women getting pregnant and becoming a single mother just to get somewhere to live off the local authority, which in a society of free market property values was a viable alternative. This comes after years of local authorities telling young people "we cannot consider you for housing unless you've got kids".

Put yourself into their situation. You're young, you're poor, you don't want to have to live with your parents all your life, and you're female, you're not very emotionally mature, and you got a local council telling you that if you got a kid you'll probably get a flat if you're prepared to wait. What are you going to do?



Stella, as far as i undertand it, the idea of social housing was for families. Do you think that because a " poor,young, immature female " wants a place of her own and has a child to get that, that the rest of society should foot the bill, and not the childs parents. It isnt just a matter of saving £20 a week as you put it. it involves a whole host of benefits, rent and council tax to name two.

Once again you rush to blame Thatcher for everything and ignore the facts. By the late 80s the number of children born to single women had risen from 10% in 1970 up to 30%, not all of these would have claimed benefits but the tax bill for the ones who did was 6.6 billion. Something had to be done both to trim the bill and stop the increase.

You sling democracy into the argument, well who forced the two women to become parents, who forced them to split up, who made the father become a donor ?  The simple fact is they made their own choices and should foot the bill. Because making the rest of us pay is hardly democratic now is it ?

As for Thatcher and the CSA, that was established in 1993, she left office in 1990. If you are going to keep blaming her for everything, ( and while i am at it, i dont see you blaming the labour supporters who bought the housing she sold off, ) at least get your dates right.




kittinSol -> RE: Sperm Donor Ordered to Pay Lesbians Child Support (12/6/2007 6:02:02 AM)

Actually, as Stella pointed out, it's the (British) government who is responsible for this, via the Child Support Agency. The couple split up and the mother had to go on state benefits; as a result, and in order to not pay her the benefits in question, the CSA traced the father and made him pay child support.

He is the father; should a man wish to donate sperm and not be held responsible for the child born as a result of his donation he should wank into an official sperm bank vial, not into a turkey baster.

quote:



Andy Bathie, 37, said the women, who approached him five years ago after other male friends declined to become donors, assured him he would have no personal or financial involvement in the children's upbringing. But he said the Child Support Agency contacted him last November and made him take a £400 paternity test, then demanded support payments because the couple had split up.

[...]

A spokeswoman for the CSA said: "Unless the child is legally adopted, both biological parents are financially responsible; the Child Support Agency legislation is not gender or partnership based.



http://www.guardian.co.uk/gayrights/story/0,,2221460,00.html




sweetNsmartBBW -> RE: Sperm Donor Ordered to Pay Lesbians Child Support (12/6/2007 6:30:53 AM)

It's a sad commentary that doing a good deed, and being altruistic, landed this guy in the position he's in.

That said, while I have all the empathy in the world for him- he did not cross his t's and dot his i's.  Parenting a child is not just a biological endeavor- it's a legal one as well.  While hindsight is 20/20- it boils down to the fact that this guy did not take the proper legal action to terminate his parental rights.  If he had, he would not be in this mess.  Being unaware of the law does not make us any less subject to it...

When my second child was born, I was still legally married to my ex- who is NOT the baby's father.  I did a lot of research, contacted lawyers, and did everything by the book- to make certain that responsibility for that child was legally shouldered by myself and the biological dad.  Otherwise, the state that I live in would have automatically made the man I was married to legally liable for the financial care of that child.  Fair or not, that's the law here- and it would have been a mess trying to weave through it AFTER the fact...

The government is very clear about what happens when you file for aid.  If there is another legal parent out there- they go after them for support.  Somebody said this was about ONE child; not true.  If they legally let this father 'off the hook", that would set a precedent for others that had not legally terminated their rights to avoid their responsibilities as well.

As someone else said, the only way to deal with this is to establish laws regarding homosexual unions and the children raised in them.  I see a lot of people saying the single mom looking for support was "wrong" in what she did.  I'm sorry, I disagree.  The woman that walked out on the child she agreed to raise and is not paying support IS wrong.  She has a moral obligation to that child- even if not a legal one.  The woman that has custody of that child, however, is only doing what is necessary, according to the laws established by the British Government, to support her child.  As a parent, I'd do the same exact thing in that situation.            




BeingChewsie -> RE: Sperm Donor Ordered to Pay Lesbians Child Support (12/6/2007 8:13:41 AM)

 

He is listed on the birth certifcate as the father. So he is already the legal father. He was part of the childs life over the years, sporadic or not he made contact through phone calls and cards. I agree he should get visitation if he wants it.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy


He should roll over and pay support.  He should also sue for custodial rights and visitation.  He should demand to be listed as the child's legal parent.  He should demand to be a part of that child's life.

I suspect the couple who used his sperm failed to really think this all the way through.  When hit with the flip side of the paddle they want to spank him with, I suspect they will drop their claim.

Sinergy





kittinSol -> RE: Sperm Donor Ordered to Pay Lesbians Child Support (12/6/2007 8:38:49 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: sweetNsmartBBW

That said, while I have all the empathy in the world for him- he did not cross his t's and dot his i's.  Parenting a child is not just a biological endeavor- it's a legal one as well. 



Yep.

quote:



The woman that has custody of that child, however, is only doing what is necessary, according to the laws established by the British Government, to support her child.  As a parent, I'd do the same exact thing in that situation.            



When you apply for benefits as a single mother in the United Kingdom, you have to tell the benefits agency whether the father of the child is paying child support. It's mandatory to tell them the name and address of the father (if known). Otherwise the benefits agency contacts the Kafkaesque Child Support Agency who then traces the father and hounds him for support. This enables the government to not pay the mother of the child all of the benefits she would otherwise be entitled to. So it's probably not strictly the mother's 'fault' that the biodad got into this mess.




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