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Nevada Businessman Trumps IRS! - 12/5/2007 10:26:46 PM   
subfever


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Though I'm not personally convinced that a commodity-based currency would be the best replacement for our current monetary system, I found this case most intriguing:

"...The outcome of this case is a magnificent victory for those of us who believe that the United States of America should have an honest monetary system.”

Read the whole story here:

http://www.liberty-watch.com/volume03/issue08/coverstory.php

< Message edited by subfever -- 12/5/2007 10:27:22 PM >
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RE: Nevada Businessman Trumps IRS! - 12/6/2007 3:00:43 AM   
Rumtiger


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Since the case is settled I can comment about it. I consulted with the government lawyers for this case, and theres a bit more to this story which put the IRS in a much worse light then anything this article can say.

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RE: Nevada Businessman Trumps IRS! - 12/6/2007 7:27:03 AM   
farglebargle


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I thought I had posted already, but I guess it was really late, and I never got to it.

It would take only a few pages of legislation to make transactions denominated in Grams of Gold be considered under the IRS Code. Up to now, it's not been a huge problem, but with Bush destroying the value of the dollar, it's a concern these days.



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RE: Nevada Businessman Trumps IRS! - 12/6/2007 11:11:14 AM   
luckydog1


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“The Supreme Court said, if they don’t have criminal intent, then they are not guilty of tax evasion,” Hansen explained. “That doesn’t mean you don’t have to pay the tax, but it means you didn’t commit a crime and won’t go to jail for a felony.”

So they still have to pay the taxes, but plead ignorance to avoid jail.

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RE: Nevada Businessman Trumps IRS! - 12/6/2007 11:34:54 AM   
luckydog1


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So having to pay a fortune in legal fees, having to pay the back taxes, and avoiding jail by pleading ignorance is trumping the IRS? 

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RE: Nevada Businessman Trumps IRS! - 12/6/2007 12:08:14 PM   
pahunkboy


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the govt will do what it thinks needs to be done to keep faith in the dollar.  politicians will tell us what we want to hear.  investors are where it is at.  everything is about money. [even sex]  males chase big bucks cos it will get pretty beautiful woman- which will make a more potent bang. all of which goes back to the chase for the dollar.

--now- I have been flirting with investing lately.  cash-bank account is the last place to have assets.  so that leaves less and less that is attractive right now. add in the sub prime mess.  very low CD rates.  what is left?  

gold.

imagine that

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RE: Nevada Businessman Trumps IRS! - 12/6/2007 1:07:08 PM   
DomKen


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Scumbag wanted his cake and ate it too.

$50 week for warehouse workers? But there was no fraudeulent intent? Then why were these guys being paid below minimum wage? Were the FICA and other withholdings being paid in gold as well?

These guys found a loophole and exploited it and if they actually had obeyed all the rules good for them. However since it is quite clear they didn't actually have any inention of obeying the actual law then they deserve to be out all the time and money from defending themselves and be patient guys like this always brag or do something to prove the real intent was to not obey thesame laws as the rest of us do and then they'll get a long term in a federal institution to reflect on their brilliance.

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RE: Nevada Businessman Trumps IRS! - 12/6/2007 4:00:09 PM   
awmslave


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Yes, considering federal minimum wage $50 a day in gold would be good deal. Otherwise, I agree, there was clear intent  to avoid paying taxes that is a crime.

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RE: Nevada Businessman Trumps IRS! - 12/6/2007 4:04:33 PM   
SugarMyChurro


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quote:

ORIGINAL: awmslave
Yes, considering federal minimum wage $50 a day in gold would be good deal. Otherwise, I agree, there was clear intent  to avoid paying taxes that is a crime.


Nope, everyone avoids taxes if they can. Tax avoidance is not a crime.

Tax evasion is the crime.

This is a solid win in the sense that it points up the insanity of our monetary system and of which I have recently posted about elsewhere.

Here's yet another good link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fractional-reserve_banking

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RE: Nevada Businessman Trumps IRS! - 12/6/2007 6:24:18 PM   
Termyn8or


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I wouldn't have handled it that way.

There is no law that compels most Citizens to pay income tax. The law is written very precisely, and there is an even bigger loophole to exploit.

The first time you ask someone to produce the law that compels you to pay, they cite IRS code. You tell them that the IRS is a private company incorporated in Deleware and they will look at you funny, but you can write to the state of Deleware and get certified copies of their incorporation papers. Notarized and everything.

I also heard of a case where someone beat the IRS with this intent defense, and the prosecutor asked the judge to order the defendant to pay the taxes, the judger replied "I do not work for the IRS".

But see I would not use the intent defense. There is something better, of that I have no doubt. I have seen the paperwork and seen it happen. We got a guy made about two hundred grand a year for at least ten years and never paid a dime, and they always knew right where he was. I saw the form they sent him. I know he walked out of many things.

Yes this is the guy doing fifteen years, but guess what, he just won his appeal. Now look for a lawsuit. And his going to the joint was not over taxes, it was over stupidity. The tax thing he did was not stupid.

The intent defense can work, but I don't see how you get all your siezed property back. With the "fact in law" defense I heard they generally return everything in about a year. Just don't sign a waiver to a speedy trial and in something like 270 days they drop the case, the judge actually throws it out. Then it is not cited nor published, which means people do not hear about it.

It is better to do what this guy did. Attack them. The process involves accusing them of fraud and demanding all your tax money back. They will respond, and you must respond properly. After that, you go on a list of non-taxpayers. Now remember you can never have a regular job again, and there are certain other things you can't do, because to sign certain documents at that point, is willingly volunteering to pay.

This is a complex issue, I do not recommend anyone try it unless you plan to be diligent. Even then, you must handle every twist and turn they throw you.This is not easy. But if you own your own business, especially if you are starting one, and it looks good, it might be a good option.

Also remember, once you have this status there will be no social security for you. No nothing.

And this only works for income tax, to be worth it you better be making alot of money. It does nothing for other taxes, sales, property, all that you still have to pay because you have no choice. But the income tax itself is indeed volutary, by law.

And they might decide to keep a close eye on you as well.

I have a question for those who think I am full of shit. If the intent defense works in tax court, how is it that ignorance of the law is no excuse ?

I would really like to know.

T

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RE: Nevada Businessman Trumps IRS! - 12/6/2007 7:58:33 PM   
FangsNfeet


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This is one of the best and most hallarious stories I've ever read. Where's the media attention on this case? This should be front page news and the first topic brought by CNN and FOX. Hell, the cases should have been televised and presented to the public to watch.

This great. Just fuking great. Thanks for shareing,

God bless America.

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RE: Nevada Businessman Trumps IRS! - 12/6/2007 8:22:41 PM   
willowspirit


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Beautiful! Absolutely BEAUTIFUL ! After reading the whole article, how can anyone not be thoroughly impressed.
I find the IRS to be the ones operating outside of the law.  They have been using "police state" tactics for decades now. They are the bullies in the schoolyard. And frankly, they scare they scare the bejebers outta me!
(BTW... Taxing property is Constitutional -- taxing income is Not.)

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RE: Nevada Businessman Trumps IRS! - 12/6/2007 8:31:18 PM   
FangsNfeet


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quote:

ORIGINAL: willowspirit

Beautiful! Absolutely BEAUTIFUL ! After reading the whole article, how can anyone not be thoroughly impressed.
I find the IRS to be the ones operating outside of the law.  They have been using "police state" tactics for decades now. They are the bullies in the schoolyard. And frankly, they scare they scare the bejebers outta me!
(BTW... Taxing property is Constitutional -- taxing income is Not.)



There was a time when my Grandfather rented property to people. The IRS came  one day with shot guns to arrest one of the Tenets. Due to property laws, my Grandfather was able to have the IRS legally removed where they had to sit accross the street from where the Tenet was living. My Grandfather argued that if the IRS killed the man on his property, then the land would be devalued.

For a while, everyone called my Grandfather "The man who kicked the IRS off his land."

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RE: Nevada Businessman Trumps IRS! - 12/6/2007 8:43:11 PM   
subfever


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rumtiger

Since the case is settled I can comment about it. I consulted with the government lawyers for this case, and theres a bit more to this story which put the IRS in a much worse light then anything this article can say.


By all means... share it with us!

(in reply to Rumtiger)
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RE: Nevada Businessman Trumps IRS! - 12/6/2007 9:02:44 PM   
subfever


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FangsNfeet

This is one of the best and most hallarious stories I've ever read. Where's the media attention on this case? This should be front page news and the first topic brought by CNN and FOX. Hell, the cases should have been televised and presented to the public to watch.

This great. Just fuking great. Thanks for shareing,

God bless America.


(Bold emphasis mine.)

Come on, you can't seriously think the PTB would allow this out there on the mainstream media, do you? It's not smart to give the peasants any focus on the monetary system and the real structure of things.

Of course, they could give it to Faux News' Go Spin Drone to do a hack job on Hansen and his client... 

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RE: Nevada Businessman Trumps IRS! - 12/6/2007 10:11:49 PM   
luckydog1


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I have a question for those who think I am full of shit. If the intent defense works in tax court, how is it that ignorance of the law is no excuse ?

"Ignorance of the law is no excuse "is just tv crap, not reality.  The specific laws in this paticular case in volve "willfull" breaking of the tax code.  The law is set up that people do not go to jail for mistakes, they just have to pay the back taxes.  This is a law where intent is absolutly part of the crime, and must be demonstrated to convict.  The people were able to convince juries that they were stupid, so do not have to go to jail.  I don't see that as a victory.

Now termyn8r, exactly what reasons do you have not naming any of the spefic cases you refer to?  I have asked you (and others) several times to please name one case that backs up your premise that income taxes are not legal.  Last time I asked the best I got was a minority opinon from an Arkansaw case that was about state taxes, that was also pre 16th amendment.

Surprise me....actually cite a case where someone of your side actually won.  Not like this where they are required to pay thier back taxes, but actually ruled they didn't have to pay.

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RE: Nevada Businessman Trumps IRS! - 12/7/2007 12:46:10 AM   
Real0ne


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quote:

Taxing property is Constitutional -- taxing income is Not.


unapportioned tqaxation is unconstitutional , at least till they rigged the 16th.

Property and income "were" the same thing.   Like everything thing else they chnge the defintions, look at the "individuals right to own and bear" being skewed into only if in a militia bullhit.


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"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

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RE: Nevada Businessman Trumps IRS! - 12/7/2007 12:52:07 AM   
UtopianRanger


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- R

< Message edited by UtopianRanger -- 12/7/2007 1:07:49 AM >


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-General George S. Patton


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RE: Nevada Businessman Trumps IRS! - 12/7/2007 1:14:14 AM   
Real0ne


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quote:

the judger replied "I do not work for the IRS".


wasnt that the long case?


_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to Termyn8or)
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RE: Nevada Businessman Trumps IRS! - 12/7/2007 1:46:20 AM   
Sunao


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Watch the movie "America From Freedom to Faschism" Very compelling documentary. Talks about the tax laws and the National ID card.

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