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RE: Top space - 12/7/2007 2:17:16 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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quote:

ORIGINAL: lusciouslips19


quote:

ORIGINAL: OldBastardly1

SensibleSam, I had to try real hard not to laugh while reading that ......essay. Was that something you contrived or do you have a real reference point?

When you are stating "facts" as you seemed to be trying to....please excuse me from the list of humanity that you tried to group together.

I am still unsure wether to laugh or shake my head in amazement



Respectfully sir, I disagree. I found what he said about subspace to be very accurate. With this accuracy, i then can believe that his info on Topspace is accurate too.


I did not find what he said to be all that accurate from a scientific view.. because as was pointed out to me when I first joined this board, there are many biochemical states that we call "subspace". He stated that endorphins have nothing to do with it, well perhaps for his submissives this is true, but for me it is false.. although the limbic system is impacted by adrenaline, that does not mean that endorphins do not play a role in subspace. The two are not mutually exclusive is my point.

I watched a documentary about pain management and hypnotism recently which made me wonder if masochists are highly suggestible and automatically react to pain the way that someone that has been hypnotised does..... although interesting idea on my part... I have no clinical proof. I wish we did have that proof, we just don't

I suppose that my problem with SensibleSam's post is that he treats his ideas as though they are facts.. which they are not.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to lusciouslips19)
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RE: Top space - 12/7/2007 3:21:45 PM   
lusciouslips19


Posts: 9792
Joined: 9/8/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

ORIGINAL: lusciouslips19


quote:

ORIGINAL: OldBastardly1

SensibleSam, I had to try real hard not to laugh while reading that ......essay. Was that something you contrived or do you have a real reference point?

When you are stating "facts" as you seemed to be trying to....please excuse me from the list of humanity that you tried to group together.

I am still unsure wether to laugh or shake my head in amazement



Respectfully sir, I disagree. I found what he said about subspace to be very accurate. With this accuracy, i then can believe that his info on Topspace is accurate too.


I did not find what he said to be all that accurate from a scientific view.. because as was pointed out to me when I first joined this board, there are many biochemical states that we call "subspace". He stated that endorphins have nothing to do with it, well perhaps for his submissives this is true, but for me it is false.. although the limbic system is impacted by adrenaline, that does not mean that endorphins do not play a role in subspace. The two are not mutually exclusive is my point.

I watched a documentary about pain management and hypnotism recently which made me wonder if masochists are highly suggestible and automatically react to pain the way that someone that has been hypnotised does..... although interesting idea on my part... I have no clinical proof. I wish we did have that proof, we just don't

I suppose that my problem with SensibleSam's post is that he treats his ideas as though they are facts.. which they are not.


You may be right. However, the experiences he speaks of...The 1st erotic arousal subspace and the second euphoric type is pretty much how I experience subspace.

(in reply to juliaoceania)
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RE: Top space - 12/7/2007 6:01:46 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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quote:

You may be right. However, the experiences he speaks of...The 1st erotic arousal subspace and the second euphoric type is pretty much how I experience subspace.


I have had different experiences with subspace... I have had the "floaty" feeling. I have had the feeling of being in another headspace when being "controlled"... so yes that is accurate.

I have also had the experience of feeling this sharp focus, hyper-vigilant feeling of awaiting the next stroke so I could feel it, and then feeling its impact as I consciously directed my attention elsewhere. it can become a hypnotic trance for me

on one that occasion he then took a Wurtenburg wheel to me and I got all floaty and incoherent than I get with pain, in fact it was not painful at all, but I became so focused on what he was doing and wanting to feel every bit of it (I was blindfolded too) that I think that I became overloaded with the sensations. He looked into my eyes and noted that I had become adrenalized, which would impact the part of the brain that SensibleSam discusses

I tend to get giddy when I am beaten. I begin to not feel it anymore after awhile, I become deadened to it because of the endorphin rush. I am energized after be beats me and I talk a lot. It gets mixed with a little of the other symptoms of subspace, such as some floatiness... but it is more of the giddiness and energized feeling I get. I laugh a lot when he beats me, well after he is finished, and he accepts this as part of my reactions to subspace.



_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

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RE: Top space - 12/7/2007 8:15:34 PM   
lusciouslips19


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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

You may be right. However, the experiences he speaks of...The 1st erotic arousal subspace and the second euphoric type is pretty much how I experience subspace.


I have had different experiences with subspace... I have had the "floaty" feeling. I have had the feeling of being in another headspace when being "controlled"... so yes that is accurate.

I have also had the experience of feeling this sharp focus, hyper-vigilant feeling of awaiting the next stroke so I could feel it, and then feeling its impact as I consciously directed my attention elsewhere. it can become a hypnotic trance for me

on one that occasion he then took a Wurtenburg wheel to me and I got all floaty and incoherent than I get with pain, in fact it was not painful at all, but I became so focused on what he was doing and wanting to feel every bit of it (I was blindfolded too) that I think that I became overloaded with the sensations. He looked into my eyes and noted that I had become adrenalized, which would impact the part of the brain that SensibleSam discusses

I tend to get giddy when I am beaten. I begin to not feel it anymore after awhile, I become deadened to it because of the endorphin rush. I am energized after be beats me and I talk a lot. It gets mixed with a little of the other symptoms of subspace, such as some floatiness... but it is more of the giddiness and energized feeling I get. I laugh a lot when he beats me, well after he is finished, and he accepts this as part of my reactions to subspace.




I get all little girl like and want my daddy to own me after being in subspace. I also get like a live wire. I also have trouble sleeping after that. The ingredients to reach ot are usually hard bondage, blindfolds, intense pain and alot f focus. the blind fold help pull me into focus.

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RE: Top space - 12/7/2007 8:35:17 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		Adrenaline can impact a person that way as well as endorphins..

Adrenaline is also present in topspace... there is another term for topspace.. it is called "dom space"

http://www.collarchat.com/m_19962/mpage_1/key_dom%252Cspace/tm.htm#19966

http://www.collarchat.com/m_1192481/mpage_1/key_dom%252Cspace/tm.htm#1192481


http://www.collarchat.com/m_129404/mpage_1/key_dom%252Cspace/tm.htm#129404

http://www.collarchat.com/m_392370/mpage_1/key_dom%252Cspace/tm.htm#392983



_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to lusciouslips19)
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RE: Top space - 12/8/2007 9:41:18 AM   
SensibleSam


Posts: 77
Joined: 11/17/2007
Status: offline 		OK, I will write a few things about endorphins.

OldBastardy questioned whether what I wrote was truly scholarly and well documented. The answer is simple - no, of course not. That's just the problem. Check Google Scholar on any aspect of homosexuality and there will be hundreds of peer reviewed articles. An academic can safely write about homosexuality. But look for a real scientific study of BDSM and there is nothing or very little. BDSM is apparently not considered a legitimate issue worth of research funding.

Almost all "knowledge" about BDSM is based on opinion. There are almost no actual studies. So what I will now say about endorphins is not authoritative. It could be of course easily resolved with a series of simple experimants. Here's a design - Take a group of a dozen subs, whip half of them for twenty minutes, compare their blood chemistry. That design won't get you a research grant it is more likely to get you arrested.

Endorphins were discovered rather recently. The idea that the body made its own narcotics seem to explain a lot. There soon arose the notion of "runner's high". In this account a runner starts out running and feels his or her aches and pains. But after a while the pain goes away and the runner will even begin to feel a sense of well being.

This fairly well established phenomenon was attributed to endorphin release. There is now some doubt among researchers if the runner's high phenomenon is in fact the result of endorphin action. But for our puposes I will stipulate that endorphins cause runner's high.

On reason there is scepticism is because - at least the last time I looked - there had never been a naloxone study with runner's high. Naloxone counters opioids. When administered naloxone stops the "high". This is done experimentally to test for the action of opium, heroin, morphine, etc. If a naloxone experiment had been done with runner's high it would likely not be controversial. Everyone would agree that runner's high resulted from endogenous opioids.

Naloxone has - as far as I know - never been used to study sub-space.

So if runner's high is caused by endorphins (as I have stipulated here for purposes of argument) is sub-space like runner's high?  I don't think so.

When I could still run (before all my basketball and baseball foot injuries caught up with me) I could get a little runner's high. Certainly I noticed that my feet hurt less at the end than when I first began. So runner's high reduces or masks pain. Sub-space also masks pain. Is it the same?

No its not the same at all. Runner's high comes on you gardually as would be expected from a pain reducing substance released into the bloodstream. The literature shows that endorphin onset takes about twenty minutes and abates slowly after an hour or two. This is not how the sub-space phenomenon typically acts at all.

Some Masters do start with a light flogger and slowly work their way up to crops and canes. This kind of regimen may indeed allow the time for therelease of endorphins to begin to act. After being lightly flogged for awhile, almost any woman can "take" more. This may well be the action of endorphins.

But the real sub-space that "protects" the sub from pain, or "converts pain to pleasure" is very different. This state may be entered and exited almost immediately. Some experienced subs go in and out of sub-space like turning on a light switch.  I had a sub who typically felt the first strike but never felt the second or subsequent strikes - at least not a searing pain. She just switched over. Once when I was caning her, for some reason she slipped out of that state and began screaming. A bit later she popped back under again and I continued to cane her as hard as I could - much to our mutual delight.

I have known other women who behaved likewise. I could cane them as hard as I liked and as long as I liked and they just writhed and moaned (sometimes drooled). They didn't feel pain in any normal way but more importantly they also didn't behave as if they had a feeling of well being as a runner's high is so often described. And they didn't get into that state slowly. They got there as if some switch were thrown.

I have tried to train women to acheive this state. I have been partly sucessfull. With hypnotic-like coaxing and very hard caning a woman can learn to enter this kind of sub-space. When she is there she may be beaten indefinitely. Afterwards when she rejoins the normally conscious, she typically is gratefull.  Once so taught she will want to be sent to that place again.

There may be an endorphin induced after-glow but that is not the principal issue in such a scene. This kind of sub-space - with which many here are quite familiar - is almost certainly a neurological phenomenon.  


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RE: Top space - 12/8/2007 1:18:52 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		I wrote out a long response and my computer ate it... I will give the reader's digest condensed response.

Endorphins are the body's response to pain... they are a neurotransmitter, they are one of many types of neurotransmitters, and their importance in aiding people when dealing with pain is rather well documented. It stands to reason that part of the subspace phenomena would involve several mechanisms, not just one. I have had many altered states, and subspace is just one of these, all are different, involve different parts of the brain, and different neurology.

If one takes endorphins out of the picture they could be altering what subspace is, so to say one neurotransmitter, or adrenaline, is the primary part of the soup that is brain chemistry is slightly misleading. I have been adrenalized many times and it did not feel remotely like subspace to me. But the after glow of subspace very much feels like a good hard workout... which would tend to make me believe that the same biochemical response that one has to exercise is part of what makes subspace happen.

It is well documented that people who exercise often are less suseptible to depression, which is part of the reason I will avidly pursue physical fitness, and have for years now. There are many neurotransmitters that are released during exercise, and your brain chemistry rewards you for exerting yourself. I think that the things that happen to you while being masochistic cause some of the same things to happen inside your brain as a strenuous workout does... and as an exercise junkie, I cam tell you I am very addicted to the brain chemistry change I get from a good workout.. in fact I crave that more than having my partner beat me because although it sends me into subspace to get beaten, those feel good chemicals are at my disposal every day from my own effort.


_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to SensibleSam)
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RE: Top space - 12/8/2007 3:10:24 PM   
NightWindWhisper


Posts: 143
Joined: 5/28/2006
Status: offline 		Neat discussion!

For me top space is a hyper-focused, hyper-vigilant state of mind.  The room, other people in the periphery, "fog out."  There is just me and my submissive and it is lovely.  I feel energized after--never drained.  But I have attributes of ADD--and that, for me is probably a factor--in domspace,  and in reviving a person who has just coded--this is when I feel most alive (strangely the hyperfocusing is similar).  I perceive the dom/subspace thing as an extremely "bonding" and fulfilling experience.  A true d/s "dance," in my opinion.

The best example that I have seen of another in topspace was at a party in MA.  A domme was whipping her submissive to orgasm with a single-tail.  She was very, very impressive.  Part way though the scene some guy started talking loudly--then  came a point, where in perhaps a period of a half-second where she turned abrubptly and snapped the whip on tip of the guys shoe--then returned to her subbie as though nothing had happened.  He shut up.  She was hyperfocused!  She was in topspace.

On hormones I would like to know if subspace is the same for malesubs as it is for femsubs.  Why?  Because I sometimes hear from midwives the term: "Birthspace."  It seems a parallel and possibly hormonally driven gift during childbirth--and offers the woman relief from pain.  I think, though cannot prove this--that one signifcant hormone may be oxytocin--the hormone that "bonds mother and child."  I think that in subspace--there is this same, but perhaps not to the same degree--of resultant bonding, and may be why d/s relationships seem to take longer to get over than do vanilla relationships.

I do not know why someone has not done research either in birthing or in d/s play.  There are plenty of times when an existing venous line can be set to draw blood (consensually of course--as part of legitimate research) at intervals--and it would be fascinating to look at various neurotransmitter and hormonal levels including oxytocin.  Maybe someday we'll know the psycho-pharmokinetics involved better.



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RE: Top space - 12/8/2007 5:39:36 PM   
OldBastardly1


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From: Atlanta, GA
Status: offline 		I have to agree with the smart girl, and I believe that *she* knows what she is talking about.

_____________________________

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"You cannot make footprints in the sands of time if you're sitting on your butt. And who wants to make buttprints in the sands of time?" -- Bob Moawad



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RE: Top space - 12/9/2007 2:26:11 PM   
SensibleSam


Posts: 77
Joined: 11/17/2007
Status: offline 		Let me be clear to JuliaOceana, I completely agree that the afterglow phenomenon is almost certainly the result of endogenous opiates. I thought I had said that. Perhaps the problem is that I focused on another one of the other sub-space states that I find more interesting.

I don't claim to be an expert in these matter but I do have some relevant training and experience. I did some animal research on sexual behavior while I was a graduate and under-graduate student . I stimulated or ablated sub-cortical structures in rats.

Many years later I noticed that subs while in deep sub-space literally behaved (lordosis, etc.) like my lab rats.

It also happens that I have observed a lot of epileptic seizures. Any one with this kind of experience will almost certainly be struck by the similar appearance of temporal lobe epilepsy and deep sub-space.

It is well known that the temporal lobe is the site of Out-of-Body (OBE) experiences. It is called the "God Spot" in the popular press. It is also well known that MRIs can be modified to stimulate the temporal lobe and that this creates the experience of "Seeing the face of God".

My speculation is that something like this goes on in BDSM at least some of the time. I could be wrong of course I think it should be investigated.

I am talking here about deep sub-space. I don't mean just the super strong sexual attraction that many subs feel for their Dom. And I don't mean the rosy afterglow state that is probably an endorphin high. I mean that sub-space that allows a woman to be beaten very hard and very long without protest. I mean that state that can begin almost instantaneously. I mean that state that deprives the subbie of coherent speech and rational thought. I mean the state where the woman has something like an OBE.

I think it's possible that many of the people on this thread have never been introduced to this level of sub-space. Certainly you never see it on the web BDSM pornography sites or even the whipping sites. In those videos no one trys to induce deep sub-space. Neither do you see it often if at all in public dungeons. We know it happens because people write about it, but deep sub-space is largely induced in private.

There is an exception. With practice some subs learn how to enter this state at will. This is analogous the yogis who can control their heart rate I suppose. You see these experienced subbies at public dungeons where they volunteer to be whipping targets. They can get a very severe whipping with essentially no distress.

As I said before to send a woman to this state she must be caned or whipped very hard and very fast. Slow strikes just don't do it. If she is one of those who like to savor the pain - slow stikes are appropriate. With a little recovery time between strokes she can remain in the here-and-now. Each sucessive lash will sting as much as the last.

But to send her into another state of consciousness, you must overwhelm her. You must beat fast and hard. At some point she will cease to be distressed. She won't protest or complain. She will become calm. She won't actually be with you anymore. She will be flying.

In my experience not all women can make this transition. Some can but don't want to. Others consider it to be the whole point of BDSM. For many this state is highly desireable and they appreciate the man who can take them there.
  

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RE: Top space - 12/9/2007 2:59:10 PM   
OldBastardly1


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From: Atlanta, GA
Status: offline 		I have never personally experienced sub-space, but my bullshit detector is going off the scale. There seem to be too many contradictions.

Would some of you that HAVE actually experienced this, that have some clinical knowledge, address this.

I am just a simple man, and such pontification can overwhelm me.

_____________________________

Old Bastard

"You cannot make footprints in the sands of time if you're sitting on your butt. And who wants to make buttprints in the sands of time?" -- Bob Moawad



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RE: Top space - 12/9/2007 3:41:04 PM   
lusciouslips19


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quote:

ORIGINAL: OldBastardly1

I have never personally experienced sub-space, but my bullshit detector is going off the scale. There seem to be too many contradictions.

Would some of you that HAVE actually experienced this, that have some clinical knowledge, address this.

I am just a simple man, and such pontification can overwhelm me.


I assume when one speaks here it is subjective experience. But could you please remember that this is not a thread on sub-space. There are many of those. I asked about experiences of top-space.

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RE: Top space - 12/9/2007 4:36:27 PM   
OldBastardly1


Posts: 651
Joined: 7/22/2006
From: Atlanta, GA
Status: offline 		Pardon me, I was responding to the post above mine....silly me.

_____________________________

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"You cannot make footprints in the sands of time if you're sitting on your butt. And who wants to make buttprints in the sands of time?" -- Bob Moawad



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RE: Top space - 12/9/2007 4:55:21 PM   
lusciouslips19


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quote:

ORIGINAL: OldBastardly1

Pardon me, I was responding to the post above mine....silly me.


very few here have clinical knowlege. Likely you dont either. I believe we can disagree with people and still maintain our respectfulness Sensiblesam is being respectful to his accusers that he is wrong and he said he does not claim to be an expert but he clearly has participated in some interesting research on animal behavior and the limbic system. So why does he have to be bashed? That I dont know. But then again, I dont think I'm the one you referred to as the smart girl, so you can disregard anything I say as drivel.

< Message edited by lusciouslips19 -- 12/9/2007 4:56:30 PM >

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RE: Top space - 12/9/2007 4:59:05 PM   
OldBastardly1


Posts: 651
Joined: 7/22/2006
From: Atlanta, GA
Status: offline 		ok

_____________________________

Old Bastard

"You cannot make footprints in the sands of time if you're sitting on your butt. And who wants to make buttprints in the sands of time?" -- Bob Moawad



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RE: Top space - 12/9/2007 5:01:52 PM   
laurell3


Posts: 6577
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quote:

ORIGINAL: OldBastardly1

I have never personally experienced sub-space, but my bullshit detector is going off the scale. There seem to be too many contradictions.

Would some of you that HAVE actually experienced this, that have some clinical knowledge, address this.

I am just a simple man, and such pontification can overwhelm me.


I don't have any clinical knowledge and all of my following statements are about me, but the state he's referring to does exist and it's quite important to know that as you cease to feel or process pain, I actually don't let my partners continue playing after that point for that reason and I really question whether it's a wise idea or any belief that it's "mutual enjoyment" at that point. 

I think it's very common to get the floaty feeling which I have found is similar to runner's high, it's not so common to get the complete detachment for me at least and I do agree it happens when overwhelmed, although I don't agree it takes quick successive whipping or caning to get there.  What overwhelms one person doesn't another.  This complete numbness is fairly uncommon for me and I actually seek to avoid it as for me it causes several days of feeling really crappy, lethargic, achiness, depression, etc. such as having the flu and your friend die at the same time.  Overall, I'm not actually sure it's not a form of shock and have wondered before whether it's even healthy for me at least.

< Message edited by laurell3 -- 12/9/2007 5:02:36 PM >

_____________________________

I cannot be defined by moments in my life, but must be considered for by the entirety of my existence.

When you fail to consider that I am the best judge for what is right for me, all of your opinions become suspect to me.

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RE: Top space - 12/9/2007 5:04:29 PM   
laurell3


Posts: 6577
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quote:

ORIGINAL: lusciouslips19

quote:

ORIGINAL: OldBastardly1

Pardon me, I was responding to the post above mine....silly me.


very few here have clinical knowlege. Likely you dont either. I believe we can disagree with people and still maintain our respectfulness Sensiblesam is being respectful to his accusers that he is wrong and he said he does not claim to be an expert but he clearly has participated in some interesting research on animal behavior and the limbic system. So why does he have to be bashed? That I dont know. But then again, I dont think I'm the one you referred to as the smart girl, so you can disregard anything I say as drivel.


Oddly many would say criticising someone openly for bashing is just another form of bashing (and yes I know I'm doing right now as well, however, I don't claim not to).

_____________________________

I cannot be defined by moments in my life, but must be considered for by the entirety of my existence.

When you fail to consider that I am the best judge for what is right for me, all of your opinions become suspect to me.

(in reply to lusciouslips19)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: Top space - 12/9/2007 5:18:02 PM   
lusciouslips19


Posts: 9792
Joined: 9/8/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: laurell3

quote:

ORIGINAL: lusciouslips19

quote:

ORIGINAL: OldBastardly1

Pardon me, I was responding to the post above mine....silly me.


very few here have clinical knowlege. Likely you dont either. I believe we can disagree with people and still maintain our respectfulness Sensiblesam is being respectful to his accusers that he is wrong and he said he does not claim to be an expert but he clearly has participated in some interesting research on animal behavior and the limbic system. So why does he have to be bashed? That I dont know. But then again, I dont think I'm the one you referred to as the smart girl, so you can disregard anything I say as drivel.


Oddly many would say criticising someone openly for bashing is just another form of bashing (and yes I know I'm doing right now as well, however, I don't claim not to).


Who ever said i made any claims? The only claim i made was that all experiences were subjective. The other statement I made was that there are many threads on sub-space. i started this post to find out subjective opinion of Top/Dom space.

(in reply to laurell3)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Top space - 12/9/2007 5:37:57 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		SensibleSam,

I have experienced drug induced euphoria, adrenalized states, meditative states, I have used sensory deprivation for spiritual reasons. I have played with self hypnosis. I have suffered from severe sleep deprivation... I think we have all had some form of altered states at one point or another.

The time when I lost the most control in subspace I could barely utter my safeword and became temporarily incoherent. It was a sudden drop. It was so fast my head swam, and it had nothing to do with adrenaline as far as I can tell, I wasn't adrenalized. I believe I went into slight shock... and I think that the process of acute stress shock can be a factor in such cases...

When a submissive drops that fast it makes them sick, and I almost vomited. I do not know what causes that at the neurological level. I think that shock is the best way to describe it I think there are many aspects to subspace that we just cannot quantify without lab research. I have never said you were "wrong", but I will say that from what I have experienced it is very complicated.. more complicated than adrenaline states, and I think the reason that subspace feels different every time I get there is because different chemistry is involved. If you ask lots of submissives what subspace feels like to them you will get a wide array of answers... and none of those answers are "wrong".

I found your thoughts on hypnotic states very interesting, and as I said in an earlier post, I believe this is one of the ingredients to subspace. How people will use hypnotic techniques to deflect pain and to keep it from registering in a negative way are things i have caught myself doing when I begin to overload during a beating...

I think top space is very much an adrenalized state from everything I have read on the topic, hyper-focus is very much a part of the adrenalized state.


< Message edited by juliaoceania -- 12/9/2007 5:39:40 PM >

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(in reply to SensibleSam)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Top space - 12/9/2007 5:39:35 PM   
laurell3


Posts: 6577
Joined: 5/5/2005
Status: offline 		I actually didn't say you made such claims.  Unfortunately you cannot chose how people respond to the OP.  People seem to be asking are they the same (sub and topspace) and asking for information on both.  There's nothing wrong with saying I'd like clinical information and it implies if anyone has any.  There's also nothing wrong with answering what people are saying and requesting information in the thread even if it's not the topic of the OP, in fact some of the best conversations here start out that way.


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(in reply to lusciouslips19)
Profile   Post #: 40
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