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RE: Iams animal testing - 8/18/2005 7:01:12 AM   
cellogrrlMK


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tinkJH

quote:

pinkpleasures


Wow.... not even I am that bitter and cold hearted.


Me neither tinkJH... but now I'm pretty disgusted and have a change in opinion of the OP (not quoted) here.

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RE: Iams animal testing - 8/18/2005 7:06:39 AM   
DesertRat


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tinkJH

quote:

pinkpleasures


Wow.... not even I am that bitter and cold hearted.


I agree...that is pretty cold, pink. Humans are just animals and not deserving of any special status or treatment in this world. A suffering human baby is no more or less deplorable than a suffering cat...or horse...or pig. We, as humans, might ascribe more importance to the suffering baby, but that significance is not intrinsic; it is significant because we decide it is.

Bob

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RE: Iams animal testing - 8/18/2005 7:06:49 AM   
pinkpleasures


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ok; i'm confused? What was so offensive?

pinkpleasures

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RE: Iams animal testing - 8/18/2005 7:18:38 AM   
cellogrrlMK


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quote:

ORIGINAL: pinkpleasures

ok; i'm confused? What was so offensive?

pinkpleasures


Here are some of my thoughts: animal cruelty is a symptom of evil. However, animals are not human. Using them to test products and to make fur coats seems reasonable and desirable to me.






THIS is offensive to ME!


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RE: Iams animal testing - 8/18/2005 7:25:59 AM   
DesertRat


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quote:

ORIGINAL: pinkpleasures

ok; i'm confused? What was so offensive?

pinkpleasures


Your assertion that it's acceptable to make animals suffer for our sake...in some cases for our mere entertainment (e.g., fur coats...not really an essential, is it?)...is offensive to me.

I am also put off when people use the old "I'll worry about this after they take care of that." argument. It is possible for people to address more than one issue simultaneously. Dumping old drugs in poor countries surely is a bad thing. Does it trump mistreatment of animals? Does that question even need to be asked?

Bob


< Message edited by DesertRat -- 8/18/2005 11:42:48 AM >

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RE: Iams animal testing - 8/18/2005 7:49:38 AM   
Jennsen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: pinkpleasures

Here are some of my thoughts: animal cruelty is a symptom of evil. However, animals are not human. Using them to test products and to make fur coats seems reasonable and desirable to me. Killing horses for insurance money will buy you a one-way ticket to hell, i hope.



When cruelty to children is wiped out, i'll worry more about animal cruelty. However i do think people convicted of these crimes should do some hard time.


There's so much pain and suffering; here and abroad. i honestly cannot get animated about animal testing.

pinkpleasures


Killing horses for insurance money? You really should watch the Chinese Raccoon Fur trade video...skinned alive(face and all) and lives for awhile after being thrown in a pile with other skinned raccoons. White fox were done the same way in a different video. All these people better get a one way ticket to Hell!

People who abuse and kill children, usually started out abusing and killing animals. Stop the animal abuse, and your one step closer to stopping child abuse.

There will always be pain and suffering everywhere. But when it's out of sight , out of mind, it's out of luck...or help...or an ending.





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RE: Iams animal testing - 8/18/2005 8:21:00 AM   
pinkpleasures


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i think it's generally accepted that the tri-fecta of predictors of an adult violent sociopath in a child is (1) animal cruelty; (2) fire-setting; and (3) sexual abuse of another child. That's one reason i think sentences for animal cruelty should be at least one year and qualify as felonies. i get frustrated watching "Animal Patrol" where, after all the investigators have done, the judge hands down a $500 fine.

As for wanting a mink coat -- so sue me. i think they're gorgeous and have always wanted one. i remember the "What Becomes a Legend Most" ad campaign and it is like a trip to Italy; something i'd do if money were no object. i am sensitive to the issues of fur coats; i am not comfortable with furs that are from trapped, not farmed, animals. But no one need worry; i am poor and see no reason to expect that to change; the mink coat is an illusion.

In my life, i can only accomplish a certain amount. i do not look down my nose at people who put their energy into fostering animals or otherwise attempting to address animal cruelty. It's not where i put mine, but i see no reason we cannot respect one another.

pinkpleasures

< Message edited by pinkpleasures -- 8/18/2005 10:03:25 AM >

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RE: Iams animal testing - 8/18/2005 8:26:45 AM   
perverseangelic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mandalin

I can accept animal testing for medical purposes with extreme cases such as cancer, MS, and those types of illnesses. And I can hope the medical profession will someday redirect their ambitions towards finding cures, and off the money they will be losing if they do. But, I cannot accept sewing a baby monkey's eyes shut, inserting devices in it's brain and cutting major sensories, isolating it with no comforts, keeping it always hungry and thirsty so it will cooperate...just to see how the brain relates to blindness. I cannot accept spraying a kitten down 5-6 times with flea spray to learn what kind of reaction it will have. Common sense should tell them it will suffer horribly and die.
Animal cruelty is just one of the things I find important to have a voice in. Child abuse and cruelty, Health insurance for everyone, stopping the war, eliminating dishonest politicians, stem cell cures, education, gas prices, and many more are important to me.
Animal suffering just happens to be my choice for this week. I feel my voice will be heard if I cry out long enough and so will other's.


Agreed.

Tired to sum that up in "unnecessary suffering." I think research that furthers treatment lines is a good thing, if done humanely, but sometimes over do.

But with things like genetic inheretance, it makes sense to test with mice, because their generations are so short...thigns that make sense and don't cause completely unecessary harm I can support. Not things purely for esthetic reasons.

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RE: Iams animal testing - 8/18/2005 8:28:32 AM   
perverseangelic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jennsen
Killing horses for insurance money? You really should watch the Chinese Raccoon Fur trade video...skinned alive(face and all) and lives for awhile after being thrown in a pile with other skinned raccoons. White fox were done the same way in a different video. All these people better get a one way ticket to Hell!



Incedentally, as far as I could find, the video is largely faked by PETA.

Not saying I support the fur trade. If I use fur it's 2nd hand and not buying into it. SImply that that particular video isn't accurate.

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RE: Iams animal testing - 8/18/2005 8:29:34 AM   
perverseangelic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: pinkpleasures
As for wanting a mink coat -- so sue me. i think they're gorgeous and have always wanted one. i remember the "What Becomes a Legend Most" ad campaign and it is like a trip to Italy; something i'd do if money were no object. i am sensitive to the issues of fur coats; i am not comfortable with furs that are from trapped, not farmed, animals. But no one need worry; i am poor and see no reason to expect that to change; the mink coat is an illusion.


Get a recycled fur coat or a second hand one. There are companies that restore and resell fur. Often you can find coats and thrift stores and have them restored to perfection.

That way, you can get the coat for less without buying into the fur trade.

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RE: Iams animal testing - 8/18/2005 8:38:28 AM   
DesertRat


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quote:

ORIGINAL: pinkpleasures


As for wanting a mink coat -- so sue me. i think they're gorgeous and have always wanted one. i remember the "What Becomes a Legend Most" ad campaign and it is like a trip to Italy; something i'd do if money were no object. i am sensitive to the issues of fur coats; i am not comfortable with furs that are from trapped, not farmed, animals. But no one need worry; i am poor and see no reason to expect that to change; the mink coat is an illusion.

pinkpleasures


Oh, I see. You think they're gorgeous and have always wanted one. Well, that's a completely different thing, isn't it? Gee, it is just like a trip to Italy. I am not criticizing you for your priorities; it's your apparent lack of compassion that is offensive to me.

Bob


< Message edited by DesertRat -- 8/18/2005 11:44:15 AM >

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RE: Iams animal testing - 8/18/2005 8:39:47 AM   
cellogrrlMK


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quote:

ORIGINAL: perverseangelic


Incedentally, as far as I could find, the video is largely faked by PETA.

Not saying I support the fur trade. If I use fur it's 2nd hand and not buying into it. SImply that that particular video isn't accurate.


And with this the thread comes full circle in a way. PETA is not be believed. Perhaps before it becomes a flame war over such material things as fur coats we should consider closing it.

I'm off to spend some quality time with my babies now.

cello

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RE: Iams animal testing - 8/18/2005 9:17:56 AM   
Quivver


Posts: 1953
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Status: offline 		Ok, I've not read everything in this post. BUT........ I am a critter lover, period.
(ok except Possums) But PETA is rarely accurate. Animal Plannet if I heard correctly
is funded by PETA. I've been involved in rescue, adoption and placement on and off
for more years then I would care to mention. What it all comes down to is what
*we* consider as humane. Possibly a Safe and Sane in respect to our fuzzy friends.
Yet I see life from a Farmers perspetive. I eat Beef but why waste the hide?

just my .02

Q

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RE: Iams animal testing - 8/18/2005 10:10:29 AM   
pinkpleasures


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quote:

Get a recycled fur coat or a second hand one. There are companies that restore and resell fur. Often you can find coats and thrift stores and have them restored to perfection.

That way, you can get the coat for less without buying into the fur trade.

perveseangelic


Man..what a terrific idea! Thank you.

pinkpleasures

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RE: Iams animal testing - 8/18/2005 12:14:29 PM   
Mandalin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: perverseangelic


quote:

ORIGINAL: Jennsen
Killing horses for insurance money? You really should watch the Chinese Raccoon Fur trade video...skinned alive(face and all) and lives for awhile after being thrown in a pile with other skinned raccoons. White fox were done the same way in a different video. All these people better get a one way ticket to Hell!



Incedentally, as far as I could find, the video is largely faked by PETA.

Not saying I support the fur trade. If I use fur it's 2nd hand and not buying into it. SImply that that particular video isn't accurate.


Well, the only part of that video that isnt normally done by the skinners is when they skin the Raccoon alive. That part is obviously Peta's idea. In the beginning of the video it shows you what they really do...they pull the Raccoons out of their cages by their back legs, swing them up in the air, and then slam their heads down on the pavement....over and over until they are dead. Other places that can afford it electricute them...which is instant without the unecessary suffering.


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RE: Iams animal testing - 8/18/2005 12:27:01 PM   
Mandalin


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Joined: 2/7/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Quivver

Ok, I've not read everything in this post. BUT........ I am a critter lover, period.
(ok except Possums) But PETA is rarely accurate. Animal Plannet if I heard correctly
is funded by PETA. I've been involved in rescue, adoption and placement on and off
for more years then I would care to mention. What it all comes down to is what
*we* consider as humane. Possibly a Safe and Sane in respect to our fuzzy friends.
Yet I see life from a Farmers perspetive. I eat Beef but why waste the hide?

just my .02

Q


Concerning leather, I completely agree with you. Beef are slaughtered everyday humanely in modern processing plants and will continue to be. (At least here in Iowa they are, I've checked it out myself) Their meat is in high demand and that's not going to stop. Their hides would be wasted and rot if nothing was done with them. I believe that nothing should be wasted just as the Indians believed. Their hides should be used for leather.


< Message edited by Mandalin -- 8/18/2005 12:30:26 PM >

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RE: Iams animal testing - 8/18/2005 11:04:28 PM   
mistoferin


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quote:

such material things as fur coats


This reminded me of a bumper sticker I once saw that read:

"It takes 40 stupid animals to make a fur coat and only 1 to wear one."

Just a side note, by wearing second hand fur you are still supporting the fur trade. It would be nice if there were no market available for those wishing to sell their furs. They sell them and get new ones...women see you wear them...they want one....by wearing one you are condoning the action. Not to mention there is another entire group of people making profit off of dead animals. Those who recondition furs are dependent upon the supply and demand of the fur trade. If there was no demand, there would not need to be a supply at any level. If you truly feel that the mass slaughter of animals for no purpose other than their fur is wrong, then the best way you can get your message across is to stay away from fur.

If you really feel the need to have fur adorning your body, take a hunter's safety class, go on a hunt, EAT the MEAT, tan yourself a hide and make a coat or stole.

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RE: Iams animal testing - 8/18/2005 11:28:18 PM   
EmeraldSlave2


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Status: offline 		Let's see...I agree that PETA is another example of a reasonable idea taken to ridiculous extremes and they do more harm than good with their over exertions. I agree that animal cruelty is hideous and people who neglect or cause unnecessary pain in animals are awful people.

I tend to agree with Pinks perspective, though her presentation was lacking. I enjoy kitties and snakes as pets, I enjoy eating many animals for food, and I'm ok with wearing leather and furs and other skins. I'm ok with enjoying animals in many forms, dead or alive.

By the way, I'd be ok with using human products as well, though I wouldn't advocate raising them on farms with the specific purpose of fattening them up and killing them off.

I also recognize that the reason I can do some of those things is because I make a conscious choice not to think about it much and understand that this stance fuzzes the line between acceptable treatment and usage of animals and abuse.

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RE: Iams animal testing - 8/18/2005 11:33:05 PM   
Mandalin


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Joined: 2/7/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

quote:

such material things as fur coats


This reminded me of a bumper sticker I once saw that read:

"It takes 40 stupid animals to make a fur coat and only 1 to wear one."

Just a side note, by wearing second hand fur you are still supporting the fur trade. It would be nice if there were no market available for those wishing to sell their furs. They sell them and get new ones...women see you wear them...they want one....by wearing one you are condoning the action. Not to mention there is another entire group of people making profit off of dead animals. Those who recondition furs are dependent upon the supply and demand of the fur trade. If there was no demand, there would not need to be a supply at any level. If you truly feel that the mass slaughter of animals for no purpose other than their fur is wrong, then the best way you can get your message across is to stay away from fur.

If you really feel the need to have fur adorning your body, take a hunter's safety class, go on a hunt, EAT the MEAT, tan yourself a hide and make a coat or stole.


Excellent advice mistoferin!

*chuckles* I can see the women now...out there in the woods creeping around looking for their fur coat




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RE: Iams animal testing - 8/19/2005 5:00:40 AM   
mistoferin


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quote:

I agree that animal cruelty is hideous and people who neglect or cause unnecessary pain in animals are awful people.


quote:

I'm ok with wearing leather and furs and other skins. I'm ok with enjoying animals in many forms, dead or alive.


If you agree that animal cruelty is hideous and that people who neglect and abuse animals are awful people, why then would you choose to support them with your own money?

quote:

By the way, I'd be ok with using human products as well


Could you please clarify this statement? What exactly does this mean? For food? A new shirt or jacket? Tattoo purses? What kind of human products do you think it would be acceptable to sell and use?

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to EmeraldSlave2)
Profile   Post #: 60
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