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Nothing and the G.U.N. - 12/8/2007 2:08:00 PM   
ThinkingKitten


Posts: 447
Joined: 6/15/2006
From: Ontari-ari-o
Status: offline 		As in Grand Unified Theory. I'm not trying to start a tiff between the creationists, evolutionists, creationary evolutionists, or "intelligent design" advocates, but I'd like to know peoples opinions of a question I have been pondering, cos I know there's a bunch of you smart-types out there.
 
My question is: What if "nothing" was never an option? What if there has ALWAYS been "something". Physicists and astrophysicists start at the "big-bang", and the creationists start (as best I recall from a metaphysics class I once took) with God as the "self-caused" being, because at some point even He/She didn't exist. Has this been addressed before? Does there actually have to be a starting-point in time for either viewpoint? What is the status of the pre-big-bang argument?


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RE: Nothing and the G.U.N. - 12/8/2007 2:10:04 PM   
Shawn1066


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Joined: 10/7/2007
Status: offline 		I was actually talking about this with my Owner yesterday...  I don't think there's such a thing as "nothing"

It just doesn't make sense to me, personally

Lots of theological types believe that God never didn't exist, as I recall.  A constant, so to speak.

< Message edited by Shawn1066 -- 12/8/2007 2:12:05 PM >

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RE: Nothing and the G.U.N. - 12/8/2007 2:17:51 PM   
Real0ne


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Depends on how far you want to stretch your definition of god.

Everything needs and observer, what can exist without one?

Since matter/energy can neither be creted nor destroyed it seems reasonable that nothing is nonexistant.





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RE: Nothing and the G.U.N. - 12/8/2007 3:21:21 PM   
awmslave


Posts: 599
Joined: 3/31/2006
Status: offline 		The "Big Bang" theory  has its arguments.  It is based on nuclear physics and red shift (Doppler effect). It deals with a matter we can study. We can not say anything about God using the same methods. We may only speculate and offer theories with no verifiable evidence. This is what religious belief systems are.
   I do not argue against religion: the society as we know it wouldn't exist without religion. We just do not have tools to understand higher levels of conciousness if they exist. My favorite hypothesis is they do exist.

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RE: Nothing and the G.U.N. - 12/8/2007 3:30:42 PM   
Alumbrado


Posts: 5560
Status: offline 		Well, the obvious pat philosophical answer is that 'nothing' is something, as in the Chinese concept of Wuji (the Void), which pre-existed the basic components of what we think of as the Universe. 
And there is room for a theory that the transition from nothing to something is part of an infinite cycle.

So there does not have to be either a specific starting point, or an eternal being. 


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RE: Nothing and the G.U.N. - 12/8/2007 4:39:02 PM   
Real0ne


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Since the cosmos; universe even in total vacuum is bathed in energy and energy/matter cycle gives the appearance of nothing to somethingin the transition, you would be suggesting antimatter or some kind of antienergy of sorts.  Is that what you are suggesting?   


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"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

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RE: Nothing and the G.U.N. - 12/8/2007 5:20:55 PM   
ThinkingKitten


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From: Ontari-ari-o
Status: offline 		Interesting. Becomes a question then, of what exactly is "nothing".Truly nothing, or just something different that we can neither comprehend or quantify? Can nothing transform into something?

Oh good, no-one's noticed my spelling oops in the thread title. Should be GUT. Que sera. I'll go back to my wooden building blocks now....

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RE: Nothing and the G.U.N. - 12/8/2007 5:31:17 PM   
Lumus


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Status: offline 		"Nothing" is what exists beyond your senses.  Isn't it?



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RE: Nothing and the G.U.N. - 12/8/2007 5:31:49 PM   
HaveRopeWillBind


Posts: 514
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Status: offline 		Not too sure about pre-God theory. The big bang supposes that there was a prior universe that reached its entropy limit and ran out of energy then collapsed into itself which initiated the bang that brought forth the current universe. So in that sense there has always been something if one presumes that universes continue to expand and contract in an unending string of universes throughout time.

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RE: Nothing and the G.U.N. - 12/8/2007 7:28:49 PM   
luckydog1


Posts: 2736
Joined: 1/16/2006
Status: offline 		My understanding of theology is that God is supposedly eternal, with out begining or end.  Can't be proved one way or the other of course.  He exists beyond time and our universe, theoretically.  The infinite cycle of big bang- universe-collapse-bigbang is one theory, but not the only one.  Are there other universes?  What is outside our universe?  What is beyond the expanding edge of space/time?  Are there other dimensions?  How do they play into this?  Is "nothing" simply a pure vacume or an actuall state of nonexistance?  We don't really know, and quite possibly can't know.  In many ways it can all be summed up by "does a tree falling in the forest that is not heard by anything make a sound?"  How you choose to answer that will shape the way you see many of these realted questions

My personal best guess is that God is energy with an intelligence operating in dimensions we can't possibly concieve with our little limited 3 dimensional physical minds, and has been given far too many human qualities by people.  Quantum theory holds that things can exist or not exist, if the universe is simply a single quantum event, as some theorise, it could come into existance out of nothing, for apperantly no reason.  Or are quantum events controlled by conditions in other dimensions?, that would also render Chaos Thoery as bunk.

Interesting topic

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RE: Nothing and the G.U.N. - 12/8/2007 7:34:54 PM   
luckydog1


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Status: offline 		The big bang supposes that there was a prior universe that reached its entropy limit and ran out of energy then collapsed into itself which initiated the bang that brought forth the current universe.  

If the entropy limit was reached and there was no more energy( actually it would all be perfectly distributed, not actually "run out" right?)  everything would simply sit motionless and unchanging.  It would take energy to draw it all into one mass, it logically seems.

But consider since time is not constant and is related to relative motion.  In a universe with no relative motion at all what would happen to time?  As you go faster, time slows down.  So in a situation of absolute stasis wouldn't time speed up, to possibly infintely high speeds?  I wonder what would happen in such a situation?  Or is that a BS thought?

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RE: Nothing and the G.U.N. - 12/8/2007 7:44:03 PM   
mnottertail


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Status: offline 		nope, it supposes no such thing.......I do.

big bang is singularity and whooshhhhhhh-----no prior cause effect or anything. The gravitas there is  a density that cries out for nuclear expansion.........

Albert Ron




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RE: Nothing and the G.U.N. - 12/8/2007 7:44:32 PM   
farglebargle


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From: Albany, NY
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

Well, the obvious pat philosophical answer is that 'nothing' is something, as in the Chinese concept of Wuji (the Void), which pre-existed the basic components of what we think of as the Universe.
And there is room for a theory that the transition from nothing to something is part of an infinite cycle.

So there does not have to be either a specific starting point, or an eternal being.



http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1523262697019013602

Hunter/Garcia

The wheel is turning
and you can't slow down
You can't let go
and you can't hold on
You can't go back
and you can't stand still
If the thunder don't get you
then the lightning will

Won't you try just a little bit harder?
Couldn't you try just a little bit more?
Won't you try just a little bit harder?
Couldn't you try just a little bit more?

Round round robin run around
Gotta get back where you belong
Little bit harder, just a little bit more
Little bit farther than you than you've gone before

The wheel is turning
and you can't slow down
You can't let go
and you can't hold on
You can't go back
and you can't stand still
If the thunder don't get you
then the lightning will

Small wheel turn by the fire and rod
Big wheel turn by the grace of God
Everytime that wheel turn round
bound to cover just a little more ground

The wheel is turning
and you can't slow down
You can't let go
and you can't hold on
You can't go back
and you can't stand still
If the thunder don't get you
then the lightning will

Won't you try just a little bit harder
Couldn't you try just a little bit more?
Won't you try just a little bit harder?
Couldn't you try just a little bit more?



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RE: Nothing and the G.U.N. - 12/8/2007 7:52:26 PM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ThinkingKitten

As in Grand Unified Theory. I'm not trying to start a tiff between the creationists, evolutionists, creationary evolutionists, or "intelligent design" advocates, but I'd like to know peoples opinions of a question I have been pondering, cos I know there's a bunch of you smart-types out there.
 
My question is: What if "nothing" was never an option? What if there has ALWAYS been "something". Physicists and astrophysicists start at the "big-bang", and the creationists start (as best I recall from a metaphysics class I once took) with God as the "self-caused" being, because at some point even He/She didn't exist. Has this been addressed before? Does there actually have to be a starting-point in time for either viewpoint? What is the status of the pre-big-bang argument?



Oh, god where to begin.....it seems the right question, we are only very small in a very large place.   you exist when your time began and you cease to exist when your time ends---that  is just one of many worlds.  time and space in  our shoes is a far different thing than the machinations of our world.     AS Alumbrado said there is a concpt called Wuji.......the void, nothingness but it also means the grand ultimate.............nah, fuck it, not tonight.

Ron 

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RE: Nothing and the G.U.N. - 12/8/2007 8:00:43 PM   
kdsub


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Status: offline 		According to the latest THEORIES of quantum mechanics you are all right. It more or less states that there are infinite parallel universes that split from any action or thought. Otherwise if Realone thinks there is a conspiracy in the destruction of the World trade Center then in some parallel universe there is … if nothing else because there was a chance…no matter how small that it could be true.

That also means in some universe there is a God… in another there is not…on and on to infinity and beyond.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 12/8/2007 8:08:56 PM >

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RE: Nothing and the G.U.N. - 12/8/2007 8:31:55 PM   
luckydog1


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Status: offline 		"Nothing" is what exists beyond your senses.  Isn't it? "

Lumnus, I think that is only true for sociopaths.  <grin>

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RE: Nothing and the G.U.N. - 12/8/2007 8:45:49 PM   
ThinkingKitten


Posts: 447
Joined: 6/15/2006
From: Ontari-ari-o
Status: offline 		I just asked the question here, because I've run it by a couple of folks (intelligent, but not quantum physicists or anything), and they seemed more comfortable with the idea that at some point there was "nothing". They could not get the idea that there may very well in fact have always been "something" - and as some of you have stated, that "something" may be dimensions, universes, whatever, beyond the comprehension of our little minds. But then they're also the type of folks who might have trouble with the old "no such thing as a straight line"

Damn, I like chaos theory. But then I like butterflies, so maybe I'm biased......

And I agree with Ron... enough for tonight!

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RE: Nothing and the G.U.N. - 12/8/2007 9:41:37 PM   
Real0ne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lumus

"Nothing" is what exists beyond your senses.  Isn't it?





nope.  you cant sense radiation but it will toast you just fine over time.






_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

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RE: Nothing and the G.U.N. - 12/8/2007 9:50:33 PM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

According to the latest THEORIES of quantum mechanics you are all right. It more or less states that there are infinite parallel universes that split from any action or thought. Otherwise if Realone thinks there is a conspiracy in the destruction of the World trade Center then in some parallel universe there is … if nothing else because there was a chance…no matter how small that it could be true.

That also means in some universe there is a God… in another there is not…on and on to infinity and beyond.

Butch


i dont buy into any parallel universe or dimensions beyond mathematical equations.  Then i suppose that depends on how far you want to stretch the meaning of dimension and universe





_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to kdsub)
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RE: Nothing and the G.U.N. - 12/8/2007 9:54:49 PM   
Real0ne


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Joined: 10/25/2004
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quote:

As in Grand Unified Theory.


that should show us in the near future, (next 75 yers), how to define part of our woirld that we set by the wayside because oil rules.   It will bring things like zpe and scalar and lem into our lives from scifi to reality.  yeh i know "boring".


_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to ThinkingKitten)
Profile   Post #: 20
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