RE: Pleasing "Just because"

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Politesub53 -> RE: Pleasing "Just because" (12/25/2007 4:18:07 PM)
pixel, i know what you mean, sometimes the mental pleasure alone gives such a great rush. This allows you to negate the pain that you feel.

HotMistress99 -> RE: Pleasing "Just because" (12/25/2007 7:31:03 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: pixelslave quote: ORIGINAL: HotMistress99 Nothing is for free in this world, everything comes at a price. And someone needs to pay first! That’s you! It just makes things easier for you if you pay with a unconditional heart. MK Ummm... Haven't you just described what some would call unconditional love? If I loved a woman unconditionally, I'd hope she was able to reciprocate that same kind of love. Although I doubt I'd be keeping track of such things, if it's unconditional love, does the sub really need to pay first?? [&:] - pixel <if it's unconditional love, does the sub really need to pay first??> Yes, we are self-centered, self-seeking by nature. We are in fact born into this nature. Unconditional love 24/7 doesn’t exist. Our self-centered nature will always rear its ugly head and this is when the sub must self sacrifice his needs and pay first. As this nature in the Dom is increasing that same nature within the Sub should be simultaneously decreasing to a point of 'almost' selflessness. This is why I say 'Nothing is for free in this world, everything comes at a price.' Very few can pay this price!

pixelslave -> RE: Pleasing "Just because" (12/25/2007 8:38:53 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: HotMistress99 <if it's unconditional love, does the sub really need to pay first??> Yes, we are self-centered, self-seeking by nature. We are in fact born into this nature. Unconditional love 24/7 doesn’t exist. Our self-centered nature will always rear its ugly head and this is when the sub must self sacrifice his needs and pay first. As this nature in the Dom is increasing that same nature within the Sub should be simultaneously decreasing to a point of 'almost' selflessness. This is why I say 'Nothing is for free in this world, everything comes at a price.' Very few can pay this price! I wouldn't want to serve a Domme who expected me to become "almost" selfless. I like myself and wouldn't want to lose all that makes me who I am. I'd hope my Domme wouldn't expect that of me either and wouldn't want to lose the things that attracted her to me. I also happen to believe that love can be unconditional 24/7. To receive the self-sacrifice you speak of, I suspect you'd need to find a sub who also believed much the same. [8\|] I suspect this is one we'll have to agree to disagree on. [&:] - pixel

kc692 -> RE: Pleasing "Just because" (12/25/2007 8:49:01 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: HotMistress99 quote: ORIGINAL: pixelslave quote: ORIGINAL: HotMistress99 Nothing is for free in this world, everything comes at a price. And someone needs to pay first! That’s you! It just makes things easier for you if you pay with a unconditional heart. MK Ummm... Haven't you just described what some would call unconditional love? If I loved a woman unconditionally, I'd hope she was able to reciprocate that same kind of love. Although I doubt I'd be keeping track of such things, if it's unconditional love, does the sub really need to pay first?? [&:] - pixel <if it's unconditional love, does the sub really need to pay first??> Yes, we are self-centered, self-seeking by nature. We are in fact born into this nature. Unconditional love 24/7 doesn’t exist. Our self-centered nature will always rear its ugly head and this is when the sub must self sacrifice his needs and pay first. As this nature in the Dom is increasing that same nature within the Sub should be simultaneously decreasing to a point of 'almost' selflessness. This is why I say 'Nothing is for free in this world, everything comes at a price.' Very few can pay this price! Let's hope that when you say "we" you mean you, your friends, and maybe a mouse in your pocket. Do not presume to speak for all of us please. I, for one, (and I'm sure not the only one) do not happen to share your sentiments. edited to add : I have not read the whole thread, but, if nothing is free, what are you paying, or are you trying to skip out on the check?

insertclevername -> RE: Pleasing "Just because" (12/25/2007 11:45:17 PM)
quote: That said, there`s nothing wrong with being a service bottom or just wanting to play, just be honest though, admit what you want, or rather how you view things, straight out. You may not get things all your own way, but honesty goes a long way. Personally, I don't think anything in the bdsm world is inherently right or inherently wrong. It's just a matter of what works for the people involved. So I am always wary when people move from talking about what's right for them, or for them and their partner, and try to generalized what is or should be right for others. I am sure all of us could find many people here who delight in our own brand of BDSM, as well as some who would find it repellent, boring or any other adjective you might name.

Aimtoplease101 -> RE: Pleasing "Just because" (12/26/2007 12:43:06 AM)
I've been reading this post with a great deal of interest because it relates to a philosophical question about which I've often thought, both within and without the D/s context. Specifically, I've often questioned whether people really act out of "selfless" motivations, or whether their motivations are, in fact, self-realization driven, but simply differ from the mainstream view of what "should be" a person's self-interest? The easy example is a masochist whose proclivities perfectly complement a sadist seeking to indulge her sadistic tendencies. The mainstream belief would be that the person who allows himself to be disciplined/ punished must be acting selflessly-- consenting to be hurt simply because it makes the sadist happy, without regard to his personal pain and discomfort. However, we who are wired to appreciate the receipt of pain may see the situation quite differently- "that lucky guy," we think, "he's found someone who does the most deliciously wicked things to him." The jaded might even refer to the fellow as a "do-me sub," quite a different person from that altruistic provider of whipping boy services with which we started. It doesn't take a radical gestalt shift to apply this same conundrum to the "service sub" (whether semi-sexual or mostly chore oriented service is involved). Such folks are wired to derive a great deal of personal enjoyment from vicariously experiencing the joy that their service provides to others. Think of the person who "slaves" over a hot stove to produce a great meal, and finds the sacrifice gratifying when he sees how much the people eating the meal enjoy the food. They bask in the reflected happiness of the recipients of their services. Under these circumstances, it becomes much harder to make a relative value judgment about the character, or "goodness quotient," of the service provider. It may not be that they are inherently nicer, more selfless, etc. It may just be that what drives their pleasure principal is different than many others, so that their aim to please (nominal pun quasi-intended) is interpreted as being more altruistic than it perhaps deserves to be. They are getting their rocks off, like everybody else is, just doing it in a different way. Perhaps it is given value only because it is different from the mainstream, and represents one of the instances in which rarity is equated with value. Then again, if you look at this from a purely pragmatic perspective, maybe the reason people do these things doesn't matter-- maybe it's just the results that count? Hope everyone had a great holiday Regards, ATP

nick2020 -> RE: Pleasing "Just because" (12/26/2007 2:42:46 AM)
Thank you for the post. From reading the majority of the posts there seem to be few (subs) that understand that it is all about the 'gift of submission' to the Mistress. Thanks agin for a great read!! nick

dreamysubmale -> RE: Pleasing "Just because" (12/26/2007 4:23:15 AM)
What a fantastic post Politesub, thank you. It’s a breath of fresh air to read such a post. And as always I enjoy your posts. For me, feminine adoration is a mystical experience. Adoration elicits obedience, and if you love someone, you obviously want to do anything and everything you can to give pleasure to that person. It is our devotion to a Mistress that drives us to do whatever we possibly can to satisfy Her. Our desire to do so is a direct result of the deep longing that we have within ourselves to please Her. A Mistress is indeed more than worthy of our heartfelt submission, adoration and love

ShaktiSama -> RE: Pleasing "Just because" (12/26/2007 5:49:14 AM)
It is sometimes as difficult for a man to learn to give without resentment as it is for a woman to learn to take without shame. There can be struggle on both sides of that equation. Long live the struggle. [:)] Personally, I do hope to find a man someday who finds his true happiness serving and pleasing me. I could use a little "wind beneath my wings". But I have cut the Gordian knot of these philosophical debates about altruism and selfishness many years ago, with the first submissive lover I ever had. No matter what the formula, mutual ecstasy is never wrong. The trappings and the stimuli necessary to achieve it may be strange, sometimes, but they are secondary and should never fool you. Joy is its own vindication.

HotMistress99 -> RE: Pleasing "Just because" (12/26/2007 1:09:06 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Aimtoplease101 I've been reading this post with a great deal of interest because it relates to a philosophical question about which I've often thought, both within and without the D/s context. Specifically, I've often questioned whether people really act out of "selfless" motivations, or whether their motivations are, in fact, self-realization driven, but simply differ from the mainstream view of what "should be" a person's self-interest? The easy example is a masochist whose proclivities perfectly complement a sadist seeking to indulge her sadistic tendencies. The mainstream belief would be that the person who allows himself to be disciplined/ punished must be acting selflessly-- consenting to be hurt simply because it makes the sadist happy, without regard to his personal pain and discomfort. However, we who are wired to appreciate the receipt of pain may see the situation quite differently- "that lucky guy," we think, "he's found someone who does the most deliciously wicked things to him." The jaded might even refer to the fellow as a "do-me sub," quite a different person from that altruistic provider of whipping boy services with which we started. It doesn't take a radical gestalt shift to apply this same conundrum to the "service sub" (whether semi-sexual or mostly chore oriented service is involved). Such folks are wired to derive a great deal of personal enjoyment from vicariously experiencing the joy that their service provides to others. Think of the person who "slaves" over a hot stove to produce a great meal, and finds the sacrifice gratifying when he sees how much the people eating the meal enjoy the food. They bask in the reflected happiness of the recipients of their services. Under these circumstances, it becomes much harder to make a relative value judgment about the character, or "goodness quotient," of the service provider. It may not be that they are inherently nicer, more selfless, etc. It may just be that what drives their pleasure principal is different than many others, so that their aim to please (nominal pun quasi-intended) is interpreted as being more altruistic than it perhaps deserves to be. They are getting their rocks off, like everybody else is, just doing it in a different way. Perhaps it is given value only because it is different from the mainstream, and represents one of the instances in which rarity is equated with value. Then again, if you look at this from a purely pragmatic perspective, maybe the reason people do these things doesn't matter-- maybe it's just the results that count? Hope everyone had a great holiday Regards, ATP Thank you for the lovely writing. I enjoyed it:) Is there such an act as unselfish giving? (We, Opps, I mean I :) would like to think so. Gives me a warm and fuzzy feeling. Does it really matter? Or is it the 'intent' of the heart that matters? MK

fit2pleaseu -> RE: Pleasing "Just because" (12/27/2007 12:07:57 AM)
this is an interesting subject for me especially on the sexual service side..it has always been in my nature to want to please my partner fully before i ever had release if i did at all! This is equally the same in my vanilla life..i have always desired to concentrate on my partners pleasure first and foremost and the result of this was often long and pleasurable sex for both my partners and myself. i guess it was natural that i desired to be a sub for a Domme so i think i slipped into the new role very easily. And on the odd occasion when perhaps all the pleasure is focussed on me i find it is far more pleasurable than if it were an everyday thing and i enjoy it without a feeling of selfishness.

pixelslave -> RE: Pleasing "Just because" (12/27/2007 10:14:39 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: HotMistress99 Is there such an act as unselfish giving? (We, Opps, I mean I :) would like to think so. Gives me a warm and fuzzy feeling. Does it really matter? Or is it the 'intent' of the heart that matters? MK I can't say if the intent of the heart matters or not (I'm not certain and like you don't know if it matters), but I can say that there is indeed unselfish giving. It's something I find all the time, both from things I do for a friend or strangers such as helping stranded motorists in need, or those I've found without water on hiking trails in the mountains who looked dehydrated, and the times I've experienced it myself as "gifts" coming freely from others which I did not expect. [&:] Just yesterday I asked a stranger if they had change for a $20 so I could purchase soft drinks for myself and my UM's from a vending machine. They didn't, but without my asking, generously gave me two $1 bills so I could. I'd call that unselfish giving. Perhaps it made them feel better inside from their "gift" to us, thus an intent from their heart, or perhaps it was just in their nature or part of their being in the holiday spirit. I don't know and can't say. It made me feel good to be able to provide for the needs of my UM's and that there are people still out there who aren't totally selfish and can share the spirit of giving to others without an expectation of anything in return. [:)] I've also experienced that same outpouring from those who know my dog and dearest friend Tabitha, was diagnosed on Sunday as being very ill and that I will have put her down within days or weeks at the most. It was unexpected news I did not at all expect as her illness came on very suddenly. I'm grateful for all the unselfish acts of support from people I didn't know who've reached out to me in support. So yes, there are many examples I could cite where I see and experience the gifts of unselfish giving frequenly happening in my life. I don't expect to receive them but appreciate them when I do. Perhaps that's the difference between your experiences and mine. [8\|] - pixel

thetammyjo -> RE: Pleasing "Just because" (12/27/2007 10:29:11 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ShaktiSama It is sometimes as difficult for a man to learn to give without resentment as it is for a woman to learn to take without shame. There can be struggle on both sides of that equation. I just wanted to quote this because I think it is a big problem at least in American (USA) culture -- don't know enough about other cultures to say. I, personally, think it's a matter of socialization too so if we were to raise people to not feel this way about sexuality I think it would stop. For example, I learned how not to feel shame or guilt about demanding and expecting what I want sexually.

MaamJay -> RE: Pleasing "Just because" (12/29/2007 1:21:16 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: pixelslave I've also experienced that same outpouring from those who know my dog and dearest friend Tabitha, was diagnosed on Sunday as being very ill and that I will have put her down within days or weeks at the most. It was unexpected news I did not at all expect as her illness came on very suddenly. I'm grateful for all the unselfish acts of support from people I didn't know who've reached out to me in support. So yes, there are many examples I could cite where I see and experience the gifts of unselfish giving frequenly happening in my life. I don't expect to receive them but appreciate them when I do. Perhaps that's the difference between your experiences and mine. [8\|] - pixel Aww pixel, I am sorry to hear that, as fellow dog-lovers, Master and I both send condolences. Master's Mum had to have their big dog put down suddenly just before Christmas, his hips gave out and despite all tried, he couldn't stand. Sadly he hadn't in himself come to terms with it as some pets manage to do, and that seemed to make it even more traumatic. Master was unashamedly crying His eyes out when He phoned me in Perth to tell me about it, and i totally understood, having made that difficult decision a number of times myself. Know that this is an act of love for the furry friend who gave you so much love in her life. And perhaps seek out the Rainbow Bridge site for consolation? Best wishes Maam Jay aka violet[A] and Master too

hardbodysub -> RE: Pleasing "Just because" (12/29/2007 8:59:52 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Aimtoplease101 I've been reading this post with a great deal of interest because it relates to a philosophical question about which I've often thought, both within and without the D/s context. Specifically, I've often questioned whether people really act out of "selfless" motivations, or whether their motivations are, in fact, self-realization driven, but simply differ from the mainstream view of what "should be" a person's self-interest? The easy example is a masochist whose proclivities perfectly complement a sadist seeking to indulge her sadistic tendencies. The mainstream belief would be that the person who allows himself to be disciplined/ punished must be acting selflessly-- consenting to be hurt simply because it makes the sadist happy, without regard to his personal pain and discomfort. However, we who are wired to appreciate the receipt of pain may see the situation quite differently- "that lucky guy," we think, "he's found someone who does the most deliciously wicked things to him." The jaded might even refer to the fellow as a "do-me sub," quite a different person from that altruistic provider of whipping boy services with which we started. It doesn't take a radical gestalt shift to apply this same conundrum to the "service sub" (whether semi-sexual or mostly chore oriented service is involved). Such folks are wired to derive a great deal of personal enjoyment from vicariously experiencing the joy that their service provides to others. Think of the person who "slaves" over a hot stove to produce a great meal, and finds the sacrifice gratifying when he sees how much the people eating the meal enjoy the food. They bask in the reflected happiness of the recipients of their services. Under these circumstances, it becomes much harder to make a relative value judgment about the character, or "goodness quotient," of the service provider. It may not be that they are inherently nicer, more selfless, etc. It may just be that what drives their pleasure principal is different than many others, so that their aim to please (nominal pun quasi-intended) is interpreted as being more altruistic than it perhaps deserves to be. They are getting their rocks off, like everybody else is, just doing it in a different way. Perhaps it is given value only because it is different from the mainstream, and represents one of the instances in which rarity is equated with value. Then again, if you look at this from a purely pragmatic perspective, maybe the reason people do these things doesn't matter-- maybe it's just the results that count? Hope everyone had a great holiday Regards, ATP Exactly! Well stated. I and a few others made comments along this line, but didn't elaborate as you did. Virtually everything a person does is economic in nature. An act may appear completely selfless, but if you look deeper, you'll understand that a person gets something from doing it. The "something" that they get isn't always obvious, but it's there, whether it's a warm fuzzy feeling from being so "selfless", or the hope of a better life in the hereafter. So when I say the only real difference between a service sub and any other kind of sub is what turns them on, that's what I'm talking about. Something about service turns the service sub on, makes them want to do it, and by doing it they get something for themselves in return. It doesn't have to be a sexual turn on, it can be anything. Something about receiving pain turns the masochist on. If the top/dominant has complementary desires, then you have a good match. One sub is not better than the other except in relation to a specific dominant with a specific desire.

LadyHugs -> RE: Pleasing "Just because" (12/29/2007 9:26:18 AM)
Dear pixelslave, Please accept my sincere regrets to hear about your dear Tabitha. I'm sure Tabitha is in heaven where the angels are giving big treats and tender care. Respectfully, Lady Hugs

VeryCurious07 -> RE: Pleasing "Just because" (12/30/2007 5:12:30 PM)
I firmly believe that any act of pleasing your partner (whether she is your Domme, sub or just your GF) should be "just because". When it comes to relationships, ulterior motives in your actions are not the act of kindness or love, but some underlying bartering for the favor of your partner. quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 This is a topic that really interests me. i often wonder if there are underlying reasons for being this way, or if it`s just because of how some submissives are wired. i know others will get what i mean, as i have read your previous posts. [;)] Not so long back, there was a long thread on a submissives rights to have sex. my opinion is that as a submissive we dont have that right, it`s more of a bonus, and yes i know a relationship is two sided but i will come to that. And this I completely disagree with. It is my opinion that if you are in a relationship that sex is one of the natural, and dare say expected things that you can share with your lover. I have been in a lot of relationships, and I can honestly say that, while I have never been a domme or a sub, that there were those relationships where I had slightly more power and those where she did. However, I am an honest person in all of my dealings with others. So as an honest person, it made no difference to me who had more power in the relationship, I was always VERY clear about one thing, at the first sign of a woman withholding sex from me. Basically, my attitude is this: "If you don't have sex with me, I will have it elsewhere, period." I also made it very clear, even in relationships where I held more power, that she had this same right. Meaning if I was not giving her sex, she had the right to break it off with me and get it from somewhere else. By the way, I have never dangled sex over a woman or used it as a weapon and I have absolutely no respect for anyone who attempts to do so to me. While, I tongue-in-cheek said to women that I would, in effect, "get it elsewhere", I would absolutely have the decency to break it off with her first, if that were my intent. Sex is a wonderful gift from Goddess, both for men and women. Anyone who would use it as a weapon or act as if either one of us didn't have a right to it from one another, is not someone I would want anything to wo with, at least not in a relationship. quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 One thing that really floats my boat, is when a Mistress, or even just a vanilla girlfriend, is enjoying Herself sexually. Like most guys i thought the ultimate aim was penetration and orgasm. i realised though that sometimes the focus is so much on this, that lifes other little joy was missed. Have you ever pleased a woman but not yourself, and seen the pure look of joy on Her face, knowing She does not have to worry about you and can concentrate, or just drift, on Her own dreamy state. Infact having sex and Her rolling off as soon as She is done and saying coyly, thanks that was wonderful is mind blowing, but the look of contentment on Her face for the rest of the day was worth it. The bonus of thinking like this is twofold, firstly, your partner really enjoys Herself, and secondly that fact alone brings its own little rewards [:)] So you believe that it is okay for women to treat men as shitty as men have been doing to women for centuries? Look, let me make something clear. When I was a lot younger, I was a selfish lover, and I did more than my share of rolling over after "I was done". However, I think this is disgusting behavior, and if I could go back in time, I would bitchslap my adolescent self silly for being such an unfeeling clod. By the same token, why should a man, regardless of the power structure of the relationship, have to go to sleep with blue balls, or get himself off with Rosy Palm and her five friends, simply because his girl wants to be a crappy lover? It's terrible when men do it to women, and it's equally as bad the other way around. To please a woman with no other reason than to please her is awesome. I love cooking for a girl. I love being a gentleman and pleasing her in many ways. I love giving a woman a full body massage, preparing a wonderful romantic fantasy for her and, yes, being a gentleman. When it comes to sex though, I have a rule, regardless of the power structure of a relationship. That rule is simply that sex is mutual, it is loving and it is sharing. We're in it together, in other words, and for one partner to simply roll over immediately after they get off, with no thought to the other, is collosally selfish. I will say one thing in response to your post, Politesub: If you "get off" on "servicing her" and have no problem with abstaining from your own pleasure, because this sacrifice, in fact gives you pleasure, then more power to you. In no way am I trying to suggest that you should assert yourself if you are already receiving your rich reward by sacrificing on this level, only that I wouldn't allow it from a woman in my bed. Or, more appropriately, she would never find herself there again if she did act so selfishly.

MystressDream -> RE: Pleasing "Just because" (12/30/2007 5:32:06 PM)
VeryCurious07... You have posted in other threads, and even say in this thread, that you are not into D/s... you are not Dominant or submissive, and this is obviously not your choice of lifestyle. You are a Female Supremist who does not believe in submitting to a woman. Interesting combination, but not part of this thread. My question is, why are you on these forums arguing the legitimacy or rightness about what a submissive may or may not want and/or live for, or what a Dominant may or may not require in a D/s relationship? If it's not your "cup of tea" then I don't understand why you feel the need to debate why we feel as we do or do as we feel. Each to their own, my dear... I would think there would be many vanilla forums on relationships that you would be an invaluable asset to. If, in fact, you ARE "curious", then I would suggest you consider asking intelligent questions that do not judge or put down what we do, and read, listen, and learn. If you are only here to tell people that what they think, feel, or desire is wrong, then you will start hitting a very hard brick wall very quickly.

undergroundsea -> RE: Pleasing "Just because" (12/30/2007 5:33:54 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: VeryCurious07 I will say one thing in response to your post, Politesub: If you "get off" on "servicing her" and have no problem with abstaining from your own pleasure, because this sacrifice, in fact gives you pleasure, then more power to you. <snip> she would never find herself there again if she did act so selfishly. You want there to be a level of parity or fairness with respect to sex in the relationship you wish to have. Fair enough. You think it is fair for a man to willingly forego orgasm after providing one to a woman. Fair enough. I would add that if the woman is aware that the man is happy to provide her pleasure without wishing for her to reciprocate, or if they both have mutually chosen this mismatch as an expression of the power or status imbalance, then more power to her as well. In some contexts, to roll over after achieving orgasm is not selfish just as it is not selfish for whomever you are cooking to not help you cook (because you want to cook for her) and enjoy the fruit of that for which only you worked. Cheers, Sea

VeryCurious07 -> RE: Pleasing "Just because" (12/30/2007 5:46:58 PM)
MystressDream, you apparently didn't read the last part of my post where I said that if he got pleasure out of this sort of thing I repect it. I never argued the "legitimacy or rightness" of Politesub's choice. At no time did I judge his feeling on this, I merely posted my own, with regard to my life, not his. Look, being curious (which I am) should not be misconstrued with not discussing the issue from my own perspective. I have noticed a trend in forums all over the web, where someone who disagrees with a particular point is asked why they bother to come to the boards in the first place. As for asking intelligent questions, I think I have done so. However, I also have opinions on various topics, including this one, and feel it is my right as a member to discuss them. Does this bother you? Implicit in my post is a willingness to listen to and discuss other opinions and I welcome anyone who wishes to disagree with what I have posted and who wishes to either educate me or perhaps soften my view on a subject. However, to categorically dismiss my opinion with no other response than you don't like it is an interesting response, but one I think may be a tad rude. I mean you no harm and I am not here to fight. I do have no problem with discussion and/or debate, which I have always thought message boards were for. [;)]

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