RE: Pleasing "Just because" (Full Version)

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darchChylde -> RE: Pleasing "Just because" (12/30/2007 5:50:58 PM)

this subject's already pretty well covered... though i'm of the opinion that even the most submissive of people doesn't truly do anything for nothing... even if the reward is entirely internal, there's always a reason beyond the act itself

take an honest to goodness service submissive... they do something so the Dominant doesn't have to, thus the Dominant's day is made easier with more time and less stress; even if there is no immediate or tangible reward or even an acknowledgement of the work done, the submissive has a sense of things being as they should be, which allows for contentment and a sense self-satisfaction



undergroundsea -> RE: Pleasing "Just because" (12/30/2007 5:54:09 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: VeryCurious07


I recall reading somewhere that people differ with respect to how they rank in importance things like love, respect, etc (I don't remember what else was on this list).

I sense that respect is of paramount importance to you, and that you feel offended or disrespected by activities that you feel marginalize your sense of self worth. And I notice that you enjoy giving full body massages without expectation of reciprocation but not sex, whereas each involves expending energy to give pleasure to your partner. This point makes me wonder if your response to not receiving sex is because of what sex means to you. I wonder if you feel that one depriving you of sex feels to you as if your welfare or wants are being neglected, which feels disrespectful to you. Or perhaps sex means intimacy to you and you feel you are being deprived of intimacy. If so, I think this point would be an important one to touch as you negotiate and define a dynamic, be it within D/s or without.

I think one point relevant to this idea is that people have different philosophies about the significance of respect and what is considered disrespectful. For instance, people have different ideas about how significant it is to not return a phone call. I have come to see over time that if one sees something as disrespectful it does not necessarily mean the other person intends it the same way or in the same degree. I have also come to see that respect or whether one is respectful to you or not is not black and white but grey.

Cheers,

Sea



VeryCurious07 -> RE: Pleasing "Just because" (12/30/2007 6:02:10 PM)

I never thought of it that way undergroundsea, but I think you hit the nail on the head. Respect is very important to me, regardless of the power structure of a relationship, and to use your word, I would be greatly offended by any woman if she marginalized my sense of self worth. I see her "rolling over after she is done" as doing just that, at least to me. However, as you suggest, I am very honest and very clear about this from the outset of any relationship. I also agree with MystressDream that it is not my place to judge anyone else, and in that spirit, I respect Politesub's desires here. Perhaps something that I would consider trivial or unimportant would offend someone else. This is all part of being individuals.

Slightly off topic: Mystress, it isn't that I am not willing to submit to a woman's power in a relationship. If I found the right woman and she was as repsctful to me as I deserve and need, it would be wonderful to immerse myself in her feminine power. However, I have never met anyone like this, and so it usually seems as if I end up being the dominant one in the relationship. However, my point is that, even when I am the dominant one, I always respect her desirfes and wishes. ;)



ShaktiSama -> RE: Pleasing "Just because" (12/30/2007 6:13:26 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: VeryCurious07
Basically, my attitude is this: "If you don't have sex with me, I will have it elsewhere, period."


Lol.  What an unbelievably repugnant, controlling, blackmailing thing to say to someone.  Hell, why don't you just rape her outright?  If she has no right to say no to sex with you, no matter what she wants or how she feels, you might as well, right?

*shakes her head*  Whatever.  If you want a poly relationship, have a poly relationship where both people can sleep with or love others without anger or retribution.  But you don't make threats and bully people who want a monogamous relationship with you, and command them to meet all your physical needs like a freaking automaton or be betrayed and emotionally hurt.  Calling a statement like this "honest" is grotesque.  It's just brutal and ugly--and it would be regardless of whether it was delivered by a sub, a dom or a vanilla man.





undergroundsea -> RE: Pleasing "Just because" (12/30/2007 6:27:25 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: VeryCurious07
I see her "rolling over after she is done" as doing just that, at least to me.


I think hearing the other half--what does rolling over, or having sex, or not having sex mean to her--is also relevant and might help you with how you feel about the matter. Perhaps she feels rolling over is similar to receiving a massage--at that moment she receives but she feels that the relationship as a whole is fair.

Cheers,

Sea



MissMagnolia -> RE: Pleasing "Just because" (12/30/2007 6:41:55 PM)

verycurious, your profile seems to indicate that you are on a BDSM site, simply looking for fantasy sex. Good luck with that.

Try a hooker.

edited for a typo.



VeryCurious07 -> RE: Pleasing "Just because" (12/30/2007 6:46:25 PM)

MissMagnolia, I am not looking for sex here, fantasy or otherwise. If I was interested in meeting people I would have posted pics. I like the board the topics and the discussions, nothing more.


quote:

ORIGINAL: undergroundsea

I think hearing the other half--what does rolling over, or having sex, or not having sex mean to her--is also relevant and might help you with how you feel about the matter. Perhaps rolling over is similar to receiving a massage--at that moment she receives but she feels that the relationship as a whole is fair.




You bring up an interesting point. For some people, who are into being doms/subs, this very thing could be part of the pleasure of his servitude of her and her receiving it from him. Perhaps it is a turn on to some to have a woman simply "turn over" after she is "done with him" because it makes him feel more servile and her more powerful. If this is part of the scene, it makes more sense to me in that context. However, I would feel disrespected if a GF or lover did this to me, and I would say that she would have the right to feel the same if I did that to her. Glad you understand where I am coming from undergroundsea. ;)



undergroundsea -> RE: Pleasing "Just because" (12/30/2007 7:08:59 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: VeryCurious07
If this is part of the scene, it makes more sense to me in that context. However, I would feel disrespected if a GF or lover did this to me, and I would say that she would have the right to feel the same if I did that to her.


Yes, for some people it is part of the scene in the manner you describe. I think the key idea is that it is mutually desired chosen. One might choose to partake in an undesired activity for the sake of the partner or the dynamic. Think of it like your girlfriend going to a football game with you, or you going shopping with her ;-)

I agree that outside the D/s context one lover rolling over without regard to how the other is feeling is very different if it is not mutually chosen.

If you could feel comfortable that a woman respected you, could you then provide her pleasure and have her roll over? In general terms, what form does submission take for you: acts of service, worshipful deference, receiving pain, following orders?

Cheers,

Sea



Politesub53 -> RE: Pleasing "Just because" (12/31/2007 6:47:53 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: VeryCurious07

So you believe that it is okay for women to treat men as shitty as men have been doing to women for centuries? Look, let me make something clear. When I was a lot younger, I was a selfish lover, and I did more than my share of rolling over after "I was done". However, I think this is disgusting behavior, and if I could go back in time, I would bitchslap my adolescent self silly for being such an unfeeling clod. By the same token, why should a man, regardless of the power structure of the relationship, have to go to sleep with blue balls, or get himself off with Rosy Palm and her five friends, simply because his girl wants to be a crappy lover? It's terrible when men do it to women, and it's equally as bad the other way around.

To please a woman with no other reason than to please her is awesome. I love cooking for a girl. I love being a gentleman and pleasing her in many ways. I love giving a woman a full body massage, preparing a wonderful romantic fantasy for her and, yes, being a gentleman. When it comes to sex though, I have a rule, regardless of the power structure of a relationship. That rule is simply that sex is mutual, it is loving and it is sharing. We're in it together, in other words, and for one partner to simply roll over immediately after they get off, with no thought to the other, is collosally selfish.

I will say one thing in response to your post, Politesub: If you "get off" on "servicing her" and have no problem with abstaining from your own pleasure, because this sacrifice, in fact gives you pleasure, then more power to you. In no way am I trying to suggest that you should assert yourself if you are already receiving your rich reward by sacrificing on this level, only that I wouldn't allow it from a woman in my bed. Or, more appropriately, she would never find herself there again if she did act so selfishly.


Why dont you try it one day. Tell your partner to concentrate just on herself. You snipped off the end of my paragraph about the bonus being twofold. I never said it was this way everytime, but just once, give yourself fully, expecting nothing back.

Then get back to me [;)]



Politesub53 -> RE: Pleasing "Just because" (12/31/2007 6:53:01 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: VeryCurious07


Perhaps it is a turn on to some to have a woman simply "turn over" after she is "done with him" because it makes him feel more servile and her more powerful.


Maybe but only partially, it made Her happy and that made me happy. For me, at that moment, it was reward enough, if that makes sense.

Edited for HTML



MystressDream -> RE: Pleasing "Just because" (12/31/2007 10:07:55 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: VeryCurious07

MystressDream, you apparently didn't read the last part of my post where I said that if he got pleasure out of this sort of thing I repect it. I never argued the "legitimacy or rightness" of Politesub's choice. At no time did I judge his feeling on this, I merely posted my own, with regard to my life, not his. Look, being curious (which I am) should not be misconstrued with not discussing the issue from my own perspective. I have noticed a trend in forums all over the web, where someone who disagrees with a particular point is asked why they bother to come to the boards in the first place. As for asking intelligent questions, I think I have done so. However, I also have opinions on various topics, including this one, and feel it is my right as a member to discuss them. Does this bother you? Implicit in my post is a willingness to listen to and discuss other opinions and I welcome anyone who wishes to disagree with what I have posted and who wishes to either educate me or perhaps soften my view on a subject. However, to categorically dismiss my opinion with no other response than you don't like it is an interesting response, but one I think may be a tad rude. I mean you no harm and I am not here to fight. I do have no problem with discussion and/or debate, which I have always thought message boards were for. [;)]


Nowhere did I say you couldn't post.  I have read all of your posts.  All I asked was why you felt the need to.   Educating you is fine.  But, understand one thing.  You are either a Dominant, a submissive, or not.  I get a feel from your posts that you not only judge the wonderful submissive men here, but, that you word your judging in such a way as to put down what it is that that feel and/or do.  If I am wrong about that, I am sorry.  It's just the impression I am getting.



Politesub53 -> RE: Pleasing "Just because" (12/31/2007 11:01:53 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: darchChylde

this subject's already pretty well covered... though i'm of the opinion that even the most submissive of people doesn't truly do anything for nothing... even if the reward is entirely internal, there's always a reason beyond the act itself

take an honest to goodness service submissive... they do something so the Dominant doesn't have to, thus the Dominant's day is made easier with more time and less stress; even if there is no immediate or tangible reward or even an acknowledgement of the work done, the submissive has a sense of things being as they should be, which allows for contentment and a sense self-satisfaction



darch, i agree that to an extent the submissive gains, even if its only satisfaction of a job well done. The crucial difference though is this.

If a submissive does something purely for satsfaction, then the Mistress is not obligated to do anything in return.

If a submissive says " i will clean house if we can play " Then the Mistress is obligated to return the favour.

Im not saying the second way is wrong either, one of the nicest profiles i saw simply stated " Clean My house, then we play "

Straightforward honest and no hidden strings.

Edited for spelling



VeryCurious07 -> RE: Pleasing "Just because" (12/31/2007 10:51:08 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MystressDream

Nowhere did I say you couldn't post.  I have read all of your posts.  All I asked was why you felt the need to.   Educating you is fine.  But, understand one thing.  You are either a Dominant, a submissive, or not.  I get a feel from your posts that you not only judge the wonderful submissive men here, but, that you word your judging in such a way as to put down what it is that that feel and/or do.  If I am wrong about that, I am sorry.  It's just the impression I am getting.


No need to apologize. In fact, if I came off judgmental then I apologize. The fact is that I re-read my posts and I now realize that I was inadvertently taking Politesub out of context and responding to a tangent of his post, that fits things I have seen in the vanilla world, where men use oppressive tactics to manipulate women and women use different but no less oppressive tactics to manipulate men. the part I took out of context was that Politesub (sorry to keep dragging your name into this PS, but it was my mistake in the first place) was speaking strictly as a sub, and I was looking at it from my own point of view and not his.

After exchanging emails with a female member on this site I realized that my interpretation of the situation was in error and I was judging his post from my point of view and not his. I am neither a dom nor a sub, but oddly enough I do have fantasies of being a sub. So, in the same way that I think it is repugnant (to use your word) when men "roll over when they are done" in the vanilla world, I feel the same is true if a woman does it to a man in the world I am used to (not that of doms/subs). However, in looking at the dynamics between true doms and subs, which I have been learning on this site, I now see how it could give a sub incredible pleasure to just please their master for no other reason than the pleasure they derive from the very act.

Additionally, the woman I corresponded with also showed me a completely different point of view than I was looking at even for the vanilla world, in our correspondance, and I found it very interestting to say the least.

Oh and I appreciate that so many of you folks are being patient with someone in this forum who is neither a dom nor a sub. I am gaining incredible inspiration for my Goddess writing here, and I am also finding myself re-evaluating some of my core beliefs as a result.   

<Edited for typos>



MaamJay -> RE: Pleasing "Just because" (12/31/2007 11:41:59 PM)

I'm glad someone has called you on your viewpoint VeryCurious07 ... I agree that in the vanilla world, being "selfish" about sexual pleasure isn't a good way to go. But in the world of D/s ... while it may not be the usual thing ALL the time, at times, it may be just as pleasing (or even more pleasing) for the sub to focus on the Dominant's pleasure instead of their own. i know that as Master's sub ... if it ALWAYS went that way, i'd end up one crazy woman LOL ... but to do that sometimes, just to watch Him cum and know i was the instrument of that without cumming myself ... that is awesome and i love it. Being the kind, wonderful, generous (and sensible!) Man He is, He would never want nor allow that to become the norm ... amongst anything else, because He gets a lot of pleasure out of watching me cum ... and quite often does that just for His pleasure and doesn't want to cum Himself! So what you possibly missed, is that it can work both ways, sub to Dom/me and Dom/me to sub.

Questions and debate are welcomed here ... but it is important to indicate that you are asking or speaking from a position of not understanding this world and the way W/we think and act ... coming across as judgemental is never particularly helpful. Keep saying things like "From my experiences in vanilla life, I would find this ..." and keep repeating that you are interested in hearing other perspectives and viewpoints. That will make more friends than enemies!

Maam Jay aka violet[A]



Politesub53 -> RE: Pleasing "Just because" (1/1/2008 4:41:24 AM)

One problem with the net is that its unlike an ordinary conversation. In as much that you dont speak, get a reply straight off, then get to say "Thats not what i meant". Therefore people can seem harsher or more judgemental than they really are.

As for dragging my name into things, its no big deal [;)]




YesMistressIrish -> RE: Pleasing "Just because" (1/1/2008 6:14:14 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MystressDream

VeryCurious07... You have posted in other threads, and even say in this thread, that you are not into D/s... you are not Dominant or submissive, and this is obviously not your choice of lifestyle.  You are a Female Supremist who does not believe in submitting to a woman.  Interesting combination, but not part of this thread.
 
My question is, why are you on these forums arguing the legitimacy or rightness about what a submissive may or may not want and/or live for, or what a Dominant may or may not require in a D/s relationship?  If it's not your "cup of tea" then I don't understand why you feel the need to debate why we feel as we do or do as we feel.  Each to their own, my dear... I would think there would be many vanilla forums on relationships that you would be an invaluable asset to.

If, in fact, you ARE "curious", then I would suggest you consider asking intelligent questions that do not judge or put down what we do, and read, listen, and learn.  If you are only here to tell people that what they think, feel, or desire is wrong, then you will start hitting a very hard brick wall very quickly.

Thanks M Dream! You stated my thoughts so perfectly, no need to type it out now...
[;)]



Whipseeker61 -> RE: Pleasing "Just because" (1/1/2008 6:39:21 AM)

i was fortunate enough to meet Mystress Dream at a party at Lady Mercy's home in September of 2004.  Beauty, grace, class, elegance and an obviously superior intellect, all Hers in abundance.  Excellent post, Happy New Year to You and best wishes to all the members of WICK"D  for the coming new year.

john

an uncollared male slave



MystressDream -> RE: Pleasing "Just because" (1/1/2008 8:42:19 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Whipseeker61

i was fortunate enough to meet Mystress Dream at a party at Lady Mercy's home in September of 2004.  Beauty, grace, class, elegance and an obviously superior intellect, all Hers in abundance.  Excellent post, Happy New Year to You and best wishes to all the members of WICK"D  for the coming new year.

john

an uncollared male slave


Thank you john.  <smile>  Next time you are in Denver, let me know.  We will make sure you can come and enjoy WICK'D again.  Happy New Year to you as well, and many wishes for a fantastic 2008.



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