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ORIGINAL: pixelslave

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ORIGINAL: HotMistress99

Nothing is for free in this world, everything comes at a price. And someone needs to pay first! That’s you! It just makes things easier for you if you pay with a unconditional heart.

MK

Ummm...  Haven't you just described what some would call unconditional love?  If I loved a woman unconditionally, I'd hope she was able to reciprocate that same kind of love.  Although I doubt I'd be keeping track of such things, if it's unconditional love, does the sub really need to pay first?? 
 
 - pixel

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ORIGINAL: HotMistress99

<if it's unconditional love, does the sub really need to pay first??>

Yes, we are self-centered, self-seeking by nature. We are in fact born into this nature. Unconditional love 24/7 doesn’t exist. Our self-centered nature will always rear its ugly head and this is when the sub must self sacrifice his needs and pay first. As this nature in the Dom is increasing that same nature within the Sub should be simultaneously decreasing to a point of  'almost' selflessness.

This is why I say 'Nothing is for free in this world, everything comes at a price.' Very few can pay this price!

I wouldn't want to serve a Domme who expected me to become "almost" selfless.  I like myself and wouldn't want to lose all that makes me who I am.  I'd hope my Domme wouldn't expect that of me either and wouldn't want to lose the things that attracted her to me.  I also happen to believe that love can be unconditional 24/7.  To receive the self-sacrifice you speak of, I suspect you'd need to find a sub who also believed much the same.

I suspect this is one we'll have to agree to disagree on. 

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ORIGINAL: HotMistress99

quote:

ORIGINAL: pixelslave

quote:

ORIGINAL: HotMistress99

Nothing is for free in this world, everything comes at a price. And someone needs to pay first! That’s you! It just makes things easier for you if you pay with a unconditional heart.

MK

Ummm...  Haven't you just described what some would call unconditional love?  If I loved a woman unconditionally, I'd hope she was able to reciprocate that same kind of love.  Although I doubt I'd be keeping track of such things, if it's unconditional love, does the sub really need to pay first?? 
 
 - pixel

<if it's unconditional love, does the sub really need to pay first??>

Yes, we are self-centered, self-seeking by nature. We are in fact born into this nature. Unconditional love 24/7 doesn’t exist. Our self-centered nature will always rear its ugly head and this is when the sub must self sacrifice his needs and pay first. As this nature in the Dom is increasing that same nature within the Sub should be simultaneously decreasing to a point of  'almost' selflessness.

This is why I say 'Nothing is for free in this world, everything comes at a price.' Very few can pay this price!

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That said, there`s nothing wrong with being a service bottom or just wanting to play, just be honest though, admit what you want, or rather how you view things, straight out. You may not get things all your own way, but honesty goes a long way.

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ORIGINAL: Aimtoplease101

I've been reading this post with a great deal of interest because it relates to a philosophical question about which I've often thought, both within and without the D/s context.

Specifically, I've often questioned whether people really act out of "selfless" motivations, or whether their motivations are, in fact, self-realization driven, but simply differ from the mainstream view of what "should be" a person's self-interest?

The easy example is a masochist whose proclivities perfectly complement a sadist seeking to indulge her sadistic tendencies. The mainstream belief would be that the person who allows himself to be disciplined/ punished must be acting selflessly-- consenting to be hurt simply because it makes the sadist happy, without regard to his personal pain and discomfort. However, we who are wired to appreciate the receipt of pain may see the situation quite differently- "that lucky guy," we think, "he's found someone who does the most deliciously wicked things to him." The jaded might even refer to the fellow as a "do-me sub," quite a different person from that altruistic provider of whipping boy services with which we started.

It doesn't take a radical gestalt shift to apply this same conundrum to the "service sub" (whether semi-sexual or mostly chore oriented service is involved). Such folks are wired to derive a great deal of personal enjoyment from vicariously experiencing the joy that their service provides to others. Think of the person who "slaves" over a hot stove to produce a great meal, and finds the sacrifice gratifying when he sees how much the people eating the meal enjoy the food. They bask in the reflected happiness of the recipients of their services.

Under these circumstances, it becomes much harder to make a relative value judgment about the character, or "goodness quotient," of the service provider. It may not be that they are inherently nicer, more selfless, etc. It may just be that what drives their pleasure principal is different than many others, so that their aim to please (nominal pun quasi-intended) is interpreted as being more altruistic than it perhaps deserves to be. They are getting their rocks off, like everybody else is, just doing it in a different way. Perhaps it is given value only because it is different from the mainstream, and represents one of the instances in which rarity is equated with value.

Then again, if you look at this from a purely pragmatic perspective, maybe the reason people do these things doesn't matter-- maybe it's just the results that count?

Hope everyone had a great holiday

Regards, ATP

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ORIGINAL: HotMistress99

Is there such an act as unselfish giving? (We, Opps, I mean I :) would like to think so. Gives me a warm and fuzzy feeling. Does it really matter? Or is it the 'intent' of the heart that matters?

MK

I can't say if the intent of the heart matters or not (I'm not certain and like you don't know if it matters), but I can say that there is indeed unselfish giving.  It's something I find all the time, both from things I do for a friend or strangers such as helping stranded motorists in need, or those I've found without water on hiking trails in the mountains who looked dehydrated, and the times I've experienced it myself as "gifts" coming freely from others which I did not expect. 

Just yesterday I asked a stranger if they had change for a $20 so I could purchase soft drinks for myself and my UM's from a vending machine.  They didn't, but without my asking, generously gave me two $1 bills so I could.  I'd call that unselfish giving.  Perhaps it made them feel better inside from their "gift" to us, thus an intent from their heart, or perhaps it was just in their nature or part of their being in the holiday spirit.  I don't know and can't say.  It made me feel good to be able to provide for the needs of my UM's and that there are people still out there who aren't totally selfish and can share the spirit of giving to others without an expectation of anything in return.

I've also experienced that same outpouring from those who know my dog and dearest friend Tabitha, was diagnosed on Sunday as being very ill and that I will have put her down within days or weeks at the most.  It was unexpected news I did not at all expect as her illness came on very suddenly.  I'm grateful for all the unselfish acts of support from people I didn't know who've reached out to me in support.  So yes, there are many examples I could cite where I see and experience the gifts of unselfish giving frequenly happening in my life.  I don't expect to receive them but appreciate them when I do.  Perhaps that's the difference between your experiences and mine.

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ORIGINAL: ShaktiSama

It is sometimes as difficult for a man to learn to give without resentment as it is for a woman to learn to take without shame. There can be struggle on both sides of that equation.

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ORIGINAL: pixelslave


I've also experienced that same outpouring from those who know my dog and dearest friend Tabitha, was diagnosed on Sunday as being very ill and that I will have put her down within days or weeks at the most.  It was unexpected news I did not at all expect as her illness came on very suddenly.  I'm grateful for all the unselfish acts of support from people I didn't know who've reached out to me in support.  So yes, there are many examples I could cite where I see and experience the gifts of unselfish giving frequenly happening in my life.  I don't expect to receive them but appreciate them when I do.  Perhaps that's the difference between your experiences and mine.
 
 - pixel
 
Aww pixel, I am sorry to hear that, as fellow dog-lovers, Master and I both send condolences. Master's Mum had to have their big dog put down suddenly just before Christmas, his hips gave out and despite all tried, he couldn't stand. Sadly he hadn't in himself come to terms with it as some pets manage to do, and that seemed to make it even more traumatic. Master was unashamedly crying His eyes out when He phoned me in Perth to tell me about it, and i totally understood, having made that difficult decision a number of times myself. Know that this is an act of love for the furry friend who gave you so much love in her life.  And perhaps seek out the Rainbow Bridge site for consolation?

Best wishes
Maam Jay aka violet[A] and Master too

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ORIGINAL: Aimtoplease101

I've been reading this post with a great deal of interest because it relates to a philosophical question about which I've often thought, both within and without the D/s context.

Specifically, I've often questioned whether people really act out of "selfless" motivations, or whether their motivations are, in fact, self-realization driven, but simply differ from the mainstream view of what "should be" a person's self-interest?

The easy example is a masochist whose proclivities perfectly complement a sadist seeking to indulge her sadistic tendencies. The mainstream belief would be that the person who allows himself to be disciplined/ punished must be acting selflessly-- consenting to be hurt simply because it makes the sadist happy, without regard to his personal pain and discomfort. However, we who are wired to appreciate the receipt of pain may see the situation quite differently- "that lucky guy," we think, "he's found someone who does the most deliciously wicked things to him." The jaded might even refer to the fellow as a "do-me sub," quite a different person from that altruistic provider of whipping boy services with which we started.

It doesn't take a radical gestalt shift to apply this same conundrum to the "service sub" (whether semi-sexual or mostly chore oriented service is involved). Such folks are wired to derive a great deal of personal enjoyment from vicariously experiencing the joy that their service provides to others. Think of the person who "slaves" over a hot stove to produce a great meal, and finds the sacrifice gratifying when he sees how much the people eating the meal enjoy the food. They bask in the reflected happiness of the recipients of their services.

Under these circumstances, it becomes much harder to make a relative value judgment about the character, or "goodness quotient," of the service provider. It may not be that they are inherently nicer, more selfless, etc. It may just be that what drives their pleasure principal is different than many others, so that their aim to please (nominal pun quasi-intended) is interpreted as being more altruistic than it perhaps deserves to be. They are getting their rocks off, like everybody else is, just doing it in a different way. Perhaps it is given value only because it is different from the mainstream, and represents one of the instances in which rarity is equated with value.

Then again, if you look at this from a purely pragmatic perspective, maybe the reason people do these things doesn't matter-- maybe it's just the results that count?

Hope everyone had a great holiday

Regards, ATP

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ORIGINAL: Politesub53

This is a topic that really interests me. i often wonder if there are underlying reasons for being this way, or if it`s just because of how some submissives are wired. i know others will get what i mean, as i have read your previous posts.

Not so long back, there was a long thread on a submissives rights to have sex. my opinion is that as a submissive we dont have that right, it`s more of a bonus, and yes i know a relationship is two sided but i will come to that.

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ORIGINAL: Politesub53 One thing that really floats my boat, is when a Mistress, or even just a vanilla girlfriend, is enjoying Herself sexually. Like most guys i thought the ultimate aim was penetration and orgasm. i realised though that sometimes the focus is so much on this, that lifes other little joy was missed. Have you ever pleased a woman but not yourself, and seen the pure look of joy on Her face, knowing She does not have to worry about you and can concentrate, or just drift, on Her own dreamy state. Infact having sex and Her rolling off as soon as She is done and saying coyly, thanks that was wonderful is mind blowing, but the look of contentment on Her face for the rest of the day was worth it. The bonus of thinking like this is twofold, firstly, your partner really enjoys Herself, and secondly that fact alone brings its own little rewards

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ORIGINAL: VeryCurious07
I will say one thing in response to your post, Politesub: If you "get off" on "servicing her" and have no problem with abstaining from your own pleasure, because this sacrifice, in fact gives you pleasure, then more power to you. <snip>

she would never find herself there again if she did act so selfishly.