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RE: Ron Paul: Get government out of healthcare! - 12/14/2007 9:42:20 AM   
pahunkboy


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Now I am dizzy!   egads.  From an investors point of view  healthcare is a great investment.  i wish i could be 20 just for today. i want to be naked and dance in the rain.  instead of this dreadful snow with a chill down to the bones.

You see kids- nothing has changed since the days of the great train robberies.  the robber barrons are alive and well.

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RE: Ron Paul: Get government out of healthcare! - 12/14/2007 11:14:06 AM   
camille65


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SugarMyChurro

Camille65:

Why don't you do us all a favor and decrease the surplus population by one, eh?

Bah humbug!

Trying to make a point here...a point made over 100 years ago by a famous someone...

 

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RE: Ron Paul: Get government out of healthcare! - 12/14/2007 11:56:22 AM   
OrionTheWolf


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Then they are looking for cash clients, because Medicare usually pays more than a private insurer will. Not sure where you will find the amounts for each procedure, but here is a link to rates for many other things. Compare these to contracted amounts from private insurers. Also, 95% of all senior citizens pay with Medicare as their primary, even if they have other insurance that they are paying for, or is being paid froma retirement account.

http://www.cms.hhs.gov/center/dme.asp

quote:

ORIGINAL: angelikaJ

There are Drs who will not accept medicaid because they are not reimbursed at a decent rate.
In addition the lag time for payment can be terrible.
My point is that not all MDs who won't accept medicare or medicaid are doing it out of altruism.

This is what I do not understand and perhaps the good MD1 can explain this to me...if universal health care is alive and well in other countries then why not here?
(I will agree that medicine in some of those countries may be far from perfect...but it is not close to perfect here.)

I could understand the POV that it sounds like a good idea but it is not do-able, were it not for the fact that it is in fact quite possible...other countries have proved that...so again...why not HERE?
aJ



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RE: Ron Paul: Get government out of healthcare! - 12/14/2007 12:56:19 PM   
subfever


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SugarMyChurro

A fundamental problem for any civilization is the need to collect taxes. I don't think anyone is complaining about that, not precisely. The complaint is more to do with what is done with our money after collection.

I want that money spent on me and my class - the middle class. I specifically oppose our many foreign entanglements and corporate pork/favoritism. The way I send master straight to hell is by trying to legislate against him - in this case I am thinking about the many loose organizations, mainly corporate entities, aligned so closely with our supposed political representatives. Certainly, I think we should try to take back for ourselves that which has been so richly lavished on undeserving corporate interests.

Others will want something else I suppose.




I want an equitable system, and I'm sure you do too. We just have very different ways of seeing things.

I have no problem with taxes, or a safety net for extreme cases. But I do have a problem with taxes on labor. I see a general tax on labor as immoral. I believe it is more than just a coincidence that the federal income tax was imposed upon us within two months of the Federal Reserve Act (which, for those who don't already know, gave the power of the issue of our money to private banking interests).

If you really want to send massa straight to hell, the only way to accomplish this is to dismantle its true source of power. Repeal the Federal Reserve Act of 1913, and repeal the 16th Amendment to the Constitution. Abolish the fractional banking system.

Then abolish the IRS Tax Code, and then the IRS itself. Be gone with the federal tax on labor for US citizens earning within the US. Create a new 4th branch of government (which the founding fathers should have done in the first place) to define and issue our new non-debt money (like our coin system, issued by the US Treasury, already is) with a stated goal of zero percent inflation. The newly created money would be spent into the economy in a variety of positive ways, but rebuilding our infrastructure would be one of the keys. (Yes, even a safety net for catastrophic health-care for the truly unable would be possible under such a system... though I believe it would be better served at the state level.)

These changes would kill massa and level the playing field by taking the international banking interests out of our lives, and the burdens of their insidious usuary and monetary inflation... along with all of the indoctrinations and illusions they've created over the years.

From that point, the masses would finally begin to see and think more clearly. The people would no longer allow Congress to be for sale. The lobby system would be abolished, along with all of the evil and harm that comes along with it. The endeavor for worldwide empire would cease, along with immoral, unjust wars.

You see, I really want to send massa to hell. It seems to me that you're just trying to compromise with him for a few more crumbs to be thrown your way. There's a big difference.


(in reply to SugarMyChurro)
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RE: Ron Paul: Get government out of healthcare! - 12/14/2007 1:27:34 PM   
SugarMyChurro


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The difference is that the electorate is 100% going to oppose your ideas - albeit mainly because they don't understand shit.

My ideas are least plausible and worth pursuing. Value for the money and all.

Ron Paul is not going to have the support needed to win diddly fuck all...I just don't get the ongoing interest in some guy that is basically just Republican Lite without enough muscle to achieve anything of consequence.

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RE: Ron Paul: Get government out of healthcare! - 12/14/2007 1:31:19 PM   
cyberdude611


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If the choice is between Hillary and Huckabee I think you will see a low voter turnout and Hillary would win that matchup. But an independant candidate like Bloomberg or Paul might get a good percentage of votes.

Hillary against Guiliani or Romney will be a much closer race and is a toss-up at this point but an independant would not do well.

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RE: Ron Paul: Get government out of healthcare! - 12/14/2007 8:33:54 PM   
samboct


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I'm sorry,- and I know about ad hominem arguments- but this is just too much.  Ron Paul is either a candidate for a Darwin award or a demagogue to rival the Gaffish.
To anybody that falls for the line- the only way to improve something is to get gov't out of there- I have a bridge in Brooklyn I want you to look at.  Also- your high school diploma has just been revoked- you flunked US history.

There is a world of difference between a free market and an unregulated market.  A free market means that anyone can bring a product or service to the market and sell it- without having to answer to a central gov't about whether or not it's needed for the overall economy.  Having regulations such that consumers know that they're not going to buy snake oil (often toxic) and can trust that the products in the marketplace are safe is part of having a free market.  It helps grow the economy- and anybody who thinks that an unregulated economy will be more successful than a regulated free market economy doesn't know history or economics.  Without regulation- consumers don't trust corporations because they know damn well that the corporation will lie, cheat steal, murder etc. to make a buck if there are no repercussions from regulation- that's the history- hence, limiting growth.  Anybody that thinks that corporations don't do that anymore- hasn't been paying attention to what's coming in from China- which is effectively an unregulated economy.

Health care should not be a for profit enterprise- any more so than education.  It makes no financial sense to keep someone alive over the age of say 75- they're really not going to contribute to the bottom line.  Nor does spending money to keep a kid alive who may not make money to pay off the cost of his medical care for over 20 years.  Corporations in this country don't have this time horizon- so health care can't work on a strictly economic basis- plus it's totally dehumanizing.  The end result will be the same as Nazi Germany's eugenics- so if you haven't got money (in Nazi Germany, the mass killings began with the mentally retarded) you're flushed.  That's a system that makes the former USSR look like heaven- and I'd suck on a bullet first.

The problem with health care in this country isn't too much gov't regulation-it's that what we've got has been done abysmally.  A good analogy involves pollution controls- in the long run, it's a lot cheaper to clean up pollution before it gets released to the environment.  Health care is the same way- it's cheaper to have good neonatal care, pediatric care etc, rather than telling people to use the ER which is both expensive and terribly inefficient.  Hence the US is spending 16% of GNP and getting lousy health care- anybody look at the rates of infant mortality?

Ron Paul is throwing the baby out with the bathwater.  Rather than laying the blame squarely on the lawmakers who've done a terrible job, he wants to throw health care to corporations- who will do far worse.  Don't believe me?  Read a history of the tenements in New York City- or any other industry where regulation was a joke.

Sam

< Message edited by samboct -- 12/14/2007 8:37:11 PM >

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RE: Ron Paul: Get government out of healthcare! - 12/14/2007 9:06:05 PM   
popeye1250


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One reason I want to see Ron Paul in the W.H. is to *SHAKE UP* Washington!
It's loaded with lawyers, lobbyists and special cause/interest groups all trying to suck our money up. That stuff needs to stop.
Wudy won't do it neither will Hillary.
Both of them are "Bush Lite."
Plus, both of them are *already* indebted to Big Business for all those tens of millions of campaign dollars.
So, if we put them in it'd just be like Bush's "mini-me."
The only other person I like other than RP is Mitt Romney.
He's got his own money so he's not on someone else's payroll, he's clean as the driven snow compared to the other candidates, he's a great manager (winter olympics turnaround.) and he said he'll do an audit of the federal government top to bottom.

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RE: Ron Paul: Get government out of healthcare! - 12/15/2007 6:42:38 AM   
samboct


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Let me expand a bit on my comments that existing gov't regulation has been done badly and throw out some history-

1)  Medical licensing boards- done on a state by state basis, rather than a federal level, and populated solely by physicians.  Hence, getting a medical license is challenging, but once gotten, it becomes a sinecure for the most part.  Also- a doc who loses his/her license in one state can basically set up shop in another.  Consumers are angry because they know that when a doc has been drunk, or left a scalpel inside a patient, they should lose their license.  Instead, docs are often not even given a slap on the wrist, thus consumers have lost confidence in the medical profession.  Self regulating rarely works- and this is yet another example of when it doesn't.  The legal profession sees a need- and presto- multi million dollar lawsuits and skyrocketing malpractice rates which are passed on.  Yet the heart of the problem is a regulating board that isn't working.  In Ron Paul's version of dystopia- what- anybody who wants to set up a practice can? (Hey- no gov't regulation of health care.)  You think that today's physicians are bad?  Wait till you get a load of the faith healers, quacks, and kooks that will be setting up shop in a heartbeat.

2)  Let's look at the FDA.  Yet another example of an agency that the neocons took a hammer to, and then complained the system was broken.  Reagan gutted the FDA back in the 80s and consequently, it took longer than ever to get new drugs through the pipeline.  The FDA also doesn't work from a corporate perspective.  It costs a fortune to get a drug through the pipeline, but it provides little protection in an adverse event.  This is because the FDA hasn't educated consumers well in terms of what a pharmaceutical compound can do and can't do- along with Congress that passed the Pure Food and Drug act of 1913.  Congress declared that drugs have to be safe and effective.  Well, any toxicologist will tell you there is no such thing as a "safe" drug.  All drugs can be toxic- it's just a matter of dose.  Don't believe me?  Try eating a bottle of aspirin- but name me in your will first please.  This is an example of bad regulation-consumers now have an unreasonable expectation that drugs carry no risks and side effects.  Well, they do- and yet again, the lawyers have seen an opportunity and exploited it.  Now we have manufacturers who have taken reasonable precautions (and some would say that they've gone overboard in lots of ways, but that's another debate) still getting multi million dollar lawsuits.  Again- bad regulation- and inadequate responsibility on the part of the gov't.  If the FDA is going to stand by their work- then the pharma company should be shielded if they've complied with the FDA and the FDA has granted approval.  Only if there has been criminal action (i.e. deliberately falsified results) should either a lawsuit or a criminal prosecution be needed.  If people are concerned about adverse events- use the vaccine model- have a pool of money established through taxes that pay for damages- but eliminate the lawyers.  Be much cheaper and more effective.

Let's look at existing health care companies.   Once insurance premiums have been collected- there is no profit in dispensing health care it's only an expense.  Insurance works backwards compared to most capitalist enterprises where the goal is to sell more goods/services to increase profit.  Insurance works that you decrease goods/services and wind up with increased profit- hence the need for regulation.  These companies have found that dispensing health care costs them money- but bureacracies make them money- so now we have large bureacracies bent on denying care.  This is an idiotic business model- and the reason why US health care is so expensive and lousy compared to the rest of the world.  How is getting rid of the role of gov't here going to make anything any better?

One of the definitions of insanity is doing the same thing over again, and expecting a different result.  Well, we've tried unregulated health care- and guess what-like most other unregulated part of a capitalist economy- it generally doesn't work to well.  Look at the "advances" of the health care industry up to the 1920s.  That our lifespans have increased so dramatically in the 20th century is due to scientific advances, and the role of gov't in wiping out diseases such as smallpox, diptheria, polio, cholera etc- by a combination of mandatory vaccines and improved infrastructure.  The role of gov't in a free market economy isn't to stay off the playing field, it's to keep it level.  We should be demanding better gov't- not less of it.

Sam

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RE: Ron Paul: Get government out of healthcare! - 12/15/2007 8:55:47 AM   
popeye1250


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Samboct, I am all for a national healthcare system.
Like I said, it's not socialised medicine if we're paying for it through our taxdollars.
The ones who are fighting against it are all the "for profit" organisations.
For profit = more profit, less care.
If they're making 30% profit then patients are only getting 70% care.
Sure, the govt. could raise the taxes for a national healthcare system but we'd need a whole seperate non-governmental , non-business entity to run it.

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RE: Ron Paul: Get government out of healthcare! - 12/15/2007 9:00:15 AM   
farglebargle


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Put the HMO's to sleep, let The People buy "Catastrophic Care" insurance, and they can easily afford regular medical expenses out of pocket.

The idea that HMO's add any benefit to anyone BUT the HMO's is a fucking joke.



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ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

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RE: Ron Paul: Get government out of healthcare! - 12/15/2007 12:14:55 PM   
subfever


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SugarMyChurro

The difference is that the electorate is 100% going to oppose your ideas - albeit mainly because they don't understand shit.



Then may I assume that you agree on principle? 

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RE: Ron Paul: Get government out of healthcare! - 12/15/2007 12:32:03 PM   
SugarMyChurro


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Yes and no. 6 billion plus people means we are passed the tipping point for anything like traditional capitalism to work.

There just ain't no going back home again.

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RE: Ron Paul: Get government out of healthcare! - 12/15/2007 2:40:37 PM   
Politesub53


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i really feel  health care should be paid for, but not run by, the state. After all no one is talking about having private insurance for policing or the fire service. All three are essential services and should be available to everyone. Here in the UK, although not perfect and often slow, everyone gets full treatment.

The problems occur when the government interfere with actually running the service. They have targets that they set, which become the be all and end all. Long term i think they do more harm than good. Let the professional medical people run the services, make them accountable for providing a set standard. Build a system where all Doctors can be checked on a national data base, incase they have been struck off in a different state. Cosmetic surgery and such should remain private, unless it can be proved to have a detrimental effect on a patients health.

Come up with a fairer pricing system for drugs, that takes into account research and development. The UK and US should be able to run a health service available to all. A good starting point would be more education for kids about healthy lifestyles. It wont be easy but it should be possible.

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RE: Ron Paul: Get government out of healthcare! - 12/15/2007 3:58:32 PM   
subfever


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SugarMyChurro

Yes and no. 6 billion plus people means we are passed the tipping point for anything like traditional capitalism to work.

There just ain't no going back home again.


Then it appears as though you agree on principle, but not on practicality.

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RE: Ron Paul: Get government out of healthcare! - 1/8/2008 4:23:23 AM   
Aheeb


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zensee

It's funny listening to all the nay sayers blathering on about how universal healthcare cannot work when a few degrees north of you is a perfect example that it does work.


Canada is a perfect example of health care now?!? thats odd since most people that get medical degreas in Canada move to the United States to actualy make a living. Also Canadas health system is so bogged down it could take weeks or months to see a doctor. I have first hand experience when I visted some one in Toronto her back went out and she could barly walk (had to crawl to make it up and down the stairs) and we had to go to the emergency room and we went in around 9-10am and waited untill 8ish to be moved to room where doctors where and it took another couple hours to just see a doctor and get some x-rays done to make an apointment to see some one. So Canada is a perfect example of health care if You don't mind waiting a whole day to see a doctor and waiting months to get needed stuff done and then paying half your income in taxes.

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RE: Ron Paul: Get government out of healthcare! - 1/8/2008 6:57:01 AM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aheeb

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zensee

It's funny listening to all the nay sayers blathering on about how universal healthcare cannot work when a few degrees north of you is a perfect example that it does work.


Canada is a perfect example of health care now?!? thats odd since most people that get medical degreas in Canada move to the United States to actualy make a living. Also Canadas health system is so bogged down it could take weeks or months to see a doctor. I have first hand experience when I visted some one in Toronto her back went out and she could barly walk (had to crawl to make it up and down the stairs) and we had to go to the emergency room and we went in around 9-10am and waited untill 8ish to be moved to room where doctors where and it took another couple hours to just see a doctor and get some x-rays done to make an apointment to see some one. So Canada is a perfect example of health care if You don't mind waiting a whole day to see a doctor and waiting months to get needed stuff done and then paying half your income in taxes.

An about 12 hour wait for something not truly a triagable emergency? That would be roughly on par with a very good day in the US at big urban hospitals. last I heard wait times at Cook county were running more like 18 hours for non life threatening emergencies.

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RE: Ron Paul: Get government out of healthcare! - 1/8/2008 8:24:29 AM   
Leonardo


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There are many modernized countries wherein the government is very involved in healthcare through nationalization. And the healthcare provided under those governments is sine quo non.
 
Free trade is beneficial to all so long as equitable and mutual benefits derived from such free trade would exist; however, though on paper, it all sounds great, in practice, history has shown that the government has to step in due to the inequities that come about when anarchical systems come into being.

Lassaiz-faire capitalism sounds wonderful, but generally those same folks that tout lassaiz-faire capitalism are the first to want government regulations that protect their sector of business or profession. 

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