RE: Hard wired for BDSM? (Full Version)

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IrishMist -> RE: Hard wired for BDSM? (12/14/2007 9:06:22 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rover

quote:

ORIGINAL: IrishMist

LOL

Great. Now I am a blind squirrel

[&:]


Actually, I was (graciously) playing the part of the squirrel.   But if you prefer.....
 
John

LMFAO




TNstepsout -> RE: Hard wired for BDSM? (12/14/2007 9:07:26 PM)

Not to make things complicated but are you referring to the D/s aspect, or BDSM? Well either way, I don't know if I'm hardwired for either. I ended up here because I was curious. I'm always interested in things that are different and give me fodder for contemplation and growth. I am hardwired to be curious and have a desire to experience new things. Does that count?

In terms of D/s, my own personal opinion is that everyone has an innate hardwiring for power dynamics. It's part of our animal instincts. Some of us just fall further on the spectrum of D or s and so we become more aware of it than others. I was not one of those. I had no idea there was such a thing. I'm glad that I found out about D/s because it has helped me to understand myself much better.




wisteriaV -> RE: Hard wired for BDSM? (12/15/2007 5:17:11 AM)

I know that I'm not "hard wired" for any aspects of alternative life choices. I chose them because they enhance who and what I see myself to be through my own interpretations of my life experiences. Anyone in my conservative family would freak if they had a  clue that my relationship with Master goes beyond the old fashioned concepts of women submitting to their men.[:D]




hejira92 -> RE: Hard wired for BDSM? (12/15/2007 6:46:46 AM)

Oh, I have so many thoughts on this subject.
 
I didn't discover BDSM until I was 40. Upon reflection, with my new knowledge, I see signs of my submission in every (good) relationship I've ever had. About a year ago, I met up with my first college love- hadn't seen him in 25 years. We discussed what had happened and I realized that I was totally devoted to submitting even then. He couldn't handle my worship.
 
In my 20's, I had a two year extra-marital affair with an older man who was totally dominant- if either of us knew what that was. He controlled my behavior, our sex, changed my thinking and I needed his permission for everything. In many ways I blossomed in that relationship. Now I know why.
 
So, I think I was hard wired into it. I remember seeing a movie when I was about 10 (I was supposed to be sleeping in the back of the car - remember drive-ins?) where a woman was brought into a mining camp on a horse with her hands bound behind her. She was auctioned off and won by this old guy. He took her to his cabin and, while her hands were still behind her, he took a knife and cut open her bodice. Her breasts spilled out. I think that scene influenced my sexuality more than anything. It obviously stayed with me! And I still think the set-up is extremely hot.
 
As to close genetic ties to kink- my parents were not kinky per se (my Mom told me they once went to an S&M party but it didn't do anything for them), but they were pioneers in the open marriage movement of the 70's, very open to alternative sexuality and both had very high sex drives (the apple didn't fall far in my case...)
 
Biologically speaking, I think homosexuality is hard wired to a certain extent- the examples of percentages of most animal populations displaying homosexual behavior tends to verify that. I don't think BDSM is, though. I think we are in the lucky position of having most of our needs met (think Maslow's hierarchy), so we can contemplate sexual desire and fetishism. I mean, I know there are documented cases of homosexuality being known and accepted in native american peoples, but is there a case of shoe-fetishism? We have the luxury of this kind of exploration. Sometime I think this kind of discussion is so much navel contemplation. But fun navel contemplation never-the-less.




SingleRarity -> RE: Hard wired for BDSM? (12/15/2007 7:01:11 AM)

Thanks for that well written reply John. Saved us the job of writing one ourselves! :)




slavekal -> RE: Hard wired for BDSM? (12/15/2007 9:26:43 AM)

I have had these desires since I was a small child.  When I met Julie Newmar, the first and greatest Catwoman, I told her that I have been in love with her since I was two years old. 
I had to learn that my desires had a name and that there was a whole subculture and lifestyle, but I always knew what I needed.




Jeffff -> RE: Hard wired for BDSM? (12/15/2007 9:39:51 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: IrishMist

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rover

quote:

ORIGINAL: IrishMist

LOL

Great. Now I am a blind squirrel

[&:]


Actually, I was (graciously) playing the part of the squirrel.   But if you prefer.....
 
John

LMFAO


Is this squirrel dominant or submissve......it is trainable?....and of utmost importance, is it after my nuts?


I think I am probably hardwired for bdsm but I have and can lived quite happily with out it

Jeff




ItalianSMistress -> RE: Hard wired for BDSM? (12/15/2007 10:48:09 AM)

I just wrote a blog about this a few days ago, thinking of a few conversations I have had about this topic,,,,here is some of it:



I have talked to woman, that have had the same general bad experience with men, for some reason, some of those woman become dominant, others submissive.  That is where the innate part comes in.  I have not had a really bad experience with any male, but other things I can look at and kinda point the finger so to speak at.  Things in My environment that may have affected how I have relationships and such. 
 
The funny thing is, I did not grow up with fantasies of BDSM like so many people in the lifestyle do.  I did not know really anything about it until I was 18.  For those of you that don’t know, the way I was introduced to this lifestyle I find is different than most.  I was young, and had a boyfriend, and a girlfriend, and was sexually bored.  Amie was using this dating site, one that was just local to our area.  I saw it had some kind of alt area, so I thought hey, what an idea.  All I said on the ad was that I was looking for something kinky and different.  I replied to two of the messages I got back.  One was a crossdresser, and the other a submissive male.  I had ongoing relations with both of them for a while.  With the male sub for about four years, he was a very well trained slave by the end of it.  To My surprise, when that ended, I decided to look for a slave again, wow, I had no idea how many there were, LOL. 
 
Now, on the other hand, there were many things in My past, before that relationship, that would suggest that I would have always been interested in BDSM.  I use to play the strangest childhood games, that you could say paved the way.  I even remember I use to play with this one boy all the time, (I mostly played with boys, cuz I had more in common with them) and I use to tie him to a tree and whip him with a stick, all the time, and he let Me do it, he never fought or even said no to Me.  Sometimes he would cry, and I would stop, but he always let Me do it again.  Now I don’t tend to stop when someone is crying,,,,,funny how things progress eh? LOL 
 
My mother was very dominating and My father was very quiet and submissive.  My sister always just took whatever shit My mother was dealing out.  I would not, hence the big difference in our personalities.  My father was always very submissive to Me, but not to My sister.  I could do no wrong in his eyes, and he did everything for Me.  Every morning he got up with Me, even tho he worked nights, he would sit with Me over breakfast and then brush My hair.  He drove Me back and forth to school everyday, bc he did not want Me waiting for a bus.  Once I hit about 11 I started fighting back at My mother, a few years later, she was rather submissive to Me also, but still kept her sadistic streak.  My sister never did, in fact, even tho she is ten years older than Me, it turned out that I was the one that would deal with My mother for her misdeeds to My sister and her family.   I think that says a lot for the “born with it” side, but there was still that environment part.  
 
 

 
Edited to make the blog smaller, so the whole thing was not this big

 




BondageSlaveMN -> RE: Hard wired for BDSM? (12/15/2007 11:05:15 AM)

Alright, after some deeper contemplation, I have come to some of my own conclusions regarding this subject.
Firstly, I will address the genetics or “hard wiring” aspect of the question. Genetics is a very complex field that very little is actually known about. Science understand the structure and mechanisms behind DNA and transcription, but how a nose/ear/arm/etc. is actually coded for within the DNA is unknown. It is obvious that some behaviors are genetically programmed into an organism. For example, my dog exhibits nesting and marking behaviors when I know for a fact he has never seen another dog nest (although I'm sure he's seen other dogs urinate on trees). The question, then, is whether or not BDSM can be coded for genetically.

I am certainly not an authoritative voice on genetics, but I have some background in genetics. This belief is not something I can back up with evidence, but rather something that seems to be common sense to me. I truly believe my dog does not understand why he nests. I believe he does so because he feels compelled to do so and finds that the hole he has produced is warm once he has done it. Over time, perhaps he learns that holes are warm and digs them willfully. I believe coding for BDSM or D/s dynamics is probably very similar. We are not coded knowing that whips are fun and being bound can be really erotic. Instead, we are programmed with a disposition toward the lifestyle and through experience discover that the lifestyle is desirable.

I think we can all agree that there exists some predisposition in all persons who are active in the BDSM lifestyle. If someone had no predisposition, they simply would not be interested much as a person who has never much liked music and instruments probably won't play in a professional band. But this predisposition could be genetically based and/or psychologically based.

From what I'm hearing on this forum, there seems to be a general consensus that most people are hard-wired at least somewhat. In some cases, people feel they have no hard-wiring but that experience has brought them to BDSM.

In my personal case, I feel that I cannot so easily separate the two. I do not have many memories of before I was eight and those that I do have were generally traumatic. I have no memory of being interested in anything close to BDSM back then. Once I started becoming sexually “activated” (interested in sex and my own sexuality), I would often become fixated on BDSM scenes. I remember wanting this one girl at school to tie me to her bed for days and weeks and use me for her own purposes. I, obviously, didn't realize that I was interested in a whole sexual subculture.

Now, in my case was it nurture or nature? I feel that I will honestly never know. The traumas of my youth and the examples and biology passed down by my parents seem inextricably intertwined.

In summary, I am certain that BDSM affinity can be caused entirely or in part by both genetics and socialization/experience. I think that finding a person on either end of this continuum would be a rare circumstance indeed.

Edited for formatting.




SensibleSam -> RE: Hard wired for BDSM? (12/15/2007 12:57:11 PM)

This person Rover seems to want to insult me. Why should that be? I was trying to be pleasant.

The central topic of this thread is whether there is a genetic component to BDSM and D/s. I think this kind of question only arises amongst those who have inadvertantly accepted some sort of quasi-Freudian  or cryto-psychoanalytic explanation for sexual behavior. Such explanations try to brand D/s practices as perversions or some other infamous mistake of development.

When people wonder if there might be a genetic explanation to their BDSM proclivities they are on the way to liberating their mind from this kind of Victorian nonsense.

My main point was that to wonder at all if there is a genetic component to human Dominance and submission is very strange indeed. All around us we see our animals struggle to assert their dominance so as to pass on their genes.

Watch the nature channel sometime. Those Big Horn Sheep that have butting contests are in a dominance competition for access to mates. This kind of contest is true of many if not most mammals. How then can anyone be surprised that in humans dominance and submission are intertwined with sex? 

Certainly human D/s looks like animal D/s. It is possible, I suppose, that human sexuality has no connections with the sexuality of other animals. But when you can clearly see animal analogs of human behavior, why bother to posit all these tenuous psychosocial theories?

My message is that people who partake of D/s are in the mainstream biologically. That is to say, they are normal. They are not some abberation of an odd upbringing. This rather impolite fellow Rover seems to have tried to suppress that message in his zeal to show everyone how smart he is.

Let me be clear. I think the Dominance/submission behaviors that you see in a pride of lions are genetic. I think the Dominance/submission behaviors that you see in herd of cattle are genetic. I think the Dominance/submission behaviors that you see in gorilla groups are genetic. Etc...





IrishMist -> RE: Hard wired for BDSM? (12/15/2007 12:59:43 PM)

quote:

This person Rover seems to want to insult me. Why should that be? I was trying to be pleasant.

Hmmm, really? Interesting. I found nothing insulting in his remarks; but then of course, I have been around the boards a bit longer than you and am used to his style of speeking.

Of course, maybe it also has to do with the fact that your skin may be a bit too thin for honest answers or responses to something you state.

/shrug





laurell3 -> RE: Hard wired for BDSM? (12/15/2007 1:06:33 PM)

There are many past threads where people from these forums have indicated they do have some type of abusive past.  Did that cause them to be interested in bdsm d/s?  Who knows?

There are equally as many that say they have had no abuse in their past.  Were they born for bdsm or did something happen in their lives that may not seem significant to them but formed their opinions at a younger age?  Again, who knows?

This the age old psychological debate of nature vs. nuture.  Are we and our behaviors a product of biology or our upbringing?  I would guess most people are probably both, however, I tend not to personally favor approaches that focus too much on the question as it is an unanswerable one.

Personally, when I am dealing with someone in the lifestyle, my bigger focus in on the extent they are able to accept that part of them and incorporate it into a balanced, healthy life.  With a few execeptions (family of origin and trauma type counseling being two I can think of offhand), in my opinion, accepting who we are today is so much more meaningful then trying to assess why.

I did grow up in an abusive home.  However, there is plenty of indication that there are others in my family that did not that have some d/s bdsm tendencies.  If my prior history of abuse caused me to form my version of sexuality and relationships, I'm ok with that, I look for others that are too.





BondageSlaveMN -> RE: Hard wired for BDSM? (12/15/2007 1:23:09 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SensibleSam

This person Rover seems to want to insult me. Why should that be? I was trying to be pleasant.

The central topic of this thread is whether there is a genetic component to BDSM and D/s. I think this kind of question only arises amongst those who have inadvertantly accepted some sort of quasi-Freudian  or cryto-psychoanalytic explanation for sexual behavior. Such explanations try to brand D/s practices as perversions or some other infamous mistake of development.

When people wonder if there might be a genetic explanation to their BDSM proclivities they are on the way to liberating their mind from this kind of Victorian nonsense.

My main point was that to wonder at all if there is a genetic component to human Dominance and submission is very strange indeed. All around us we see our animals struggle to assert their dominance so as to pass on their genes.

Watch the nature channel sometime. Those Big Horn Sheep that have butting contests are in a dominance competition for access to mates. This kind of contest is true of many if not most mammals. How then can anyone be surprised that in humans dominance and submission are intertwined with sex? 

Certainly human D/s looks like animal D/s. It is possible, I suppose, that human sexuality has no connections with the sexuality of other animals. But when you can clearly see animal analogs of human behavior, why bother to posit all these tenuous psychosocial theories?

My message is that people who partake of D/s are in the mainstream biologically. That is to say, they are normal. They are not some abberation of an odd upbringing. This rather impolite fellow Rover seems to have tried to suppress that message in his zeal to show everyone how smart he is.

Let me be clear. I think the Dominance/submission behaviors that you see in a pride of lions are genetic. I think the Dominance/submission behaviors that you see in herd of cattle are genetic. I think the Dominance/submission behaviors that you see in gorilla groups are genetic. Etc...




I am not here to challenge anyone's beliefs. I am here to have an academic discourse concerning the topic. That said, there are still rights and wrongs as far as this topic is concerned. There is a significant difference between the dominance seen in the animal world and that exhitibted in D/s dynamics and BDSM in general. One example of this is the S/M aspect of BDSM. If you beat a dog, it does not generally enjoy the experience and it's reactions are indicative of this. I adopted my dog from the animal humane society. He has a history of abuse and his behavior to this day certainly is indicative of this. Humans who as masochists are so not because of a strugle for a mate as you imply. Likewise, the D/s aspect of BDSM is not really analogous to animals butting horns over a mate.

I am a firm believer that BDSM is not displayed in the animal kingdom, at least not an analogous manner to that of human BDSM.

Firstly, please please please note that I am not drawing a correlation between BDSM and molesters by this next train of thought. I am merely attempting to show that psychological trauma can and does affect behavior. Many molesters were subjected to molestation themselves in their youth. Would these people have molested had they not had the experience that they did? Where they born and destine to molest?

Again, I am not saying you must accept my thoughts on the subject. I have come to my own conclusion that BDSM is a product of some combination of both nature and nuture.




BondageSlaveMN -> RE: Hard wired for BDSM? (12/15/2007 1:28:48 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: laurell3

There are many past threads where people from these forums have indicated they do have some type of abusive past.  Did that cause them to be interested in bdsm d/s?  Who knows?

There are equally as many that say they have had no abuse in their past.  Were they born for bdsm or did something happen in their lives that may not seem significant to them but formed their opinions at a younger age?  Again, who knows?

This the age old psychological debate of nature vs. nuture.  Are we and our behaviors a product of biology or our upbringing?  I would guess most people are probably both, however, I tend not to personally favor approaches that focus too much on the question as it is an unanswerable one.

Personally, when I am dealing with someone in the lifestyle, my bigger focus in on the extent they are able to accept that part of them and incorporate it into a balanced, healthy life.  With a few execeptions (family of origin and trauma type counseling being two I can think of offhand), in my opinion, accepting who we are today is so much more meaningful then trying to assess why.

I did grow up in an abusive home.  However, there is plenty of indication that there are others in my family that did not that have some d/s bdsm tendencies.  If my prior history of abuse caused me to form my version of sexuality and relationships, I'm ok with that, I look for others that are too.




Just because a question is not easily answered does not mean it is not worth contemplating. I find that this sort of introspection helps me grow and understand myself. Perhaps this is not helpful to others, but it is helpful to me.

For me, accepting who I am is necessarily dependent on asking the question of why. I have a very logical, analytical mind. For me, I need to know why something works, not simply that it does. This doesn't mean I cannot be happy until I have all the answers. As I said in my previous post, I am certain I'll never know how much of my BDSM is nature or nurture. Honestly, it doesn't really matter in the long run. I just find myself growing, personally, from such discussion.




Rover -> RE: Hard wired for BDSM? (12/15/2007 1:39:33 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SensibleSam

My main point was that to wonder at all if there is a genetic component to human Dominance and submission is very strange indeed. All around us we see our animals struggle to assert their dominance so as to pass on their genes.


I hope it comes as no insult to note that physical dominance in a social heirarchy has nothing whatsoever to do with Dominance in a personal relationship dynamic (and is often indicated by the capitalized "D" to signify relationship dominance... and not the silly capitalized "D" to indicate that an individual named Dave, Doug or Darren is a Dominant).
 
I'm sorry, and I'll try say this as nicely as possible so as not to offend you.  But if you're making any correlation between the two, you don't understand the basic foundations of power exchange relationships. 

quote:


Watch the nature channel sometime. Those Big Horn Sheep that have butting contests are in a dominance competition for access to mates.


And Dominance in a relationship dynamic is not a contest between potential suitors.  Nor a contest of wills between two potential partners.  If it's a contest, you might consider doing it a bit differently.  And while I readily acknowledge that some submissives/slaves desire to be "overpowered", this is a function of role play while the nature of the relationship dynamic remains consensual.

quote:


This kind of contest is true of many if not most mammals. How then can anyone be surprised that in humans dominance and submission are intertwined with sex? 


If that were the case, then power exchange relationships would be the norm rather than the exception.  And last time I checked, we are a decided minority.  Besides, although power exchange dynamics may be erotic for many people, they do not always have an actual sexual component (ie: a power exchange does not require sex, nor does S/M or B/D).

quote:


Certainly human D/s looks like animal D/s.


It only looks that way to those who do not understand the nature or dynamics of power exchange relationships. 

quote:


It is possible, I suppose, that human sexuality has no connections with the sexuality of other animals. But when you can clearly see animal analogs of human behavior, why bother to posit all these tenuous psychosocial theories?


Human sexuality and power exchange relationships are two entirely different issues.  Perhaps that's where you're having difficulty?

quote:


My message is that people who partake of D/s are in the mainstream biologically. That is to say, they are normal. They are not some abberation of an odd upbringing. This rather impolite fellow Rover seems to have tried to suppress that message in his zeal to show everyone how smart he is.


Hate me now and beat the Christmas rush.  But don't blame others for your own shortcomings.

quote:


Let me be clear. I think the Dominance/submission behaviors that you see in a pride of lions are genetic. I think the Dominance/submission behaviors that you see in herd of cattle are genetic. I think the Dominance/submission behaviors that you see in gorilla groups are genetic. Etc...


And none of those examples of dominance (note the small "d") and submission have anything to do with power exchange relationships.  They are all examples of social hierarchies, rather than consensual power exchange relationships.
 
John




laurell3 -> RE: Hard wired for BDSM? (12/15/2007 1:45:12 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BondageSlaveMN

quote:

ORIGINAL: laurell3

There are many past threads where people from these forums have indicated they do have some type of abusive past.  Did that cause them to be interested in bdsm d/s?  Who knows?

There are equally as many that say they have had no abuse in their past.  Were they born for bdsm or did something happen in their lives that may not seem significant to them but formed their opinions at a younger age?  Again, who knows?

This the age old psychological debate of nature vs. nuture.  Are we and our behaviors a product of biology or our upbringing?  I would guess most people are probably both, however, I tend not to personally favor approaches that focus too much on the question as it is an unanswerable one.

Personally, when I am dealing with someone in the lifestyle, my bigger focus in on the extent they are able to accept that part of them and incorporate it into a balanced, healthy life.  With a few execeptions (family of origin and trauma type counseling being two I can think of offhand), in my opinion, accepting who we are today is so much more meaningful then trying to assess why.

I did grow up in an abusive home.  However, there is plenty of indication that there are others in my family that did not that have some d/s bdsm tendencies.  If my prior history of abuse caused me to form my version of sexuality and relationships, I'm ok with that, I look for others that are too.

Given some of your responses, I do think you might be reading too much into other's responses at times.  We all have opinions and most of them are based on our own experiences, which will never be the same as yours.  That's not personal or a comment on you or yours.




Just because a question is not easily answered does not mean it is not worth contemplating. I find that this sort of introspection helps me grow and understand myself. Perhaps this is not helpful to others, but it is helpful to me.

For me, accepting who I am is necessarily dependent on asking the question of why. I have a very logical, analytical mind. For me, I need to know why something works, not simply that it does. This doesn't mean I cannot be happy until I have all the answers. As I said in my previous post, I am certain I'll never know how much of my BDSM is nature or nurture. Honestly, it doesn't really matter in the long run. I just find myself growing, personally, from such discussion.



I'm not at all suggesting you shouldn't consider it, contemplate it or discuss it.  I have in the past pondered it and many other issues in my life and been faced with the question many times of would you change it or other things if you could?  The simple answer is no, I wouldn't.  Although I've been through some significant trauma and struggled, I like who I am today (most days) and I think that point is the more important one to reach.  However, I think we actually agree given the bolded statement you made above.




BondageSlaveMN -> RE: Hard wired for BDSM? (12/15/2007 1:46:19 PM)

Well put Rover. Your argument is similar to mine, although a bit more flushed out.




TheInstrument -> RE: Hard wired for BDSM? (12/15/2007 5:06:30 PM)

It's been proven that some people are naturally proned to be adrenaline junkies. Tests on certain groups of children tracked from birth to their early 20s have shown that the same people who respond more calmly to aggititating stimuli than most of the group - though a small percentage - made up the majority of violent offenders later.


Food for thought.




RCdc -> RE: Hard wired for BDSM? (12/15/2007 5:13:32 PM)

Are people hardwired for BDSM?
I would suggest the answer is mostly - no.
 
However, hardwired to be dominant or submissive then the answer is yes - can be.
 
Masochism, I feel is also possibly a hardwire (which is why I answered mostly no).
 
the.dark.




BondageSlaveMN -> RE: Hard wired for BDSM? (12/15/2007 6:42:53 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheInstrument

It's been proven that some people are naturally proned to be adrenaline junkies. Tests on certain groups of children tracked from birth to their early 20s have shown that the same people who respond more calmly to aggititating stimuli than most of the group - though a small percentage - made up the majority of violent offenders later.


Food for thought.


Oh god, I should just turn myself in now. Not only do I jump out of airplanes for kicks, but burning my fuse is near impossible.




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