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RE: My two impressions of America - 12/16/2007 12:03:58 AM   
Owner59


Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: angelikaJ

Stella,
Thank you for continuing to provide us with information.

I am not ashamed to be an American, but neither at this juncture am I especially proud.

I am, however, outraged.

Best wishes,
jenn



I agree with this post.

Sorry, Stella.

Come back,we`ll make it up to ya.

(in reply to angelikaJ)
Profile   Post #: 81
RE: My two impressions of America - 12/16/2007 6:42:14 AM   
Alumbrado


Posts: 5560
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SgtZiggy

I hate to come across as an ass, but the immigration officials were right in denying the OP legal entry to the US, if two facts that I got from the disjointed rambling of the post are correct:

1: The OP has a penis.
2: The OP was attempting to enter the US on a passport that indicated that the OP is Female.

I've worked for an immigration attorney in the past, and this is a clear case of attempting to enter the US under false pretenses. A person with a penis, under US law, is legally male. Attempting to enter the US on a passport that describes the issuee as Female is grounds for deportation, and it is the practice of the US government to mark the refusal of entry on any documents presented that are suspected of being false or used improperly. Honestly, if you're coming to the US, I would expect you to follow our laws during the time you're here... We did have about 3000 of our countrymen (including 5 personal friends of mine) killed a few years back, largely due to being a bit lax on visa control.


Actually, the  most recent court rulings I know of say exactly the opposite... that genitalia set no universal legal standard in determining sex for bureaucratic purposes.
And certainly it would be beyond ludicrous to suggest the inverse (that every person without a penis for whatever reason had to declare 'Female' on their ID). 

So without a codified determination of gender for such cases, the whole house of cards... PC, arrest, incarceration, etc. appears to be built on the ignorance and bigoted personal opinions of a couple of  'Homeland Securahtye' apparatchiks, not on 'following our laws'. 

(in reply to SgtZiggy)
Profile   Post #: 82
RE: My two impressions of America - 12/16/2007 8:00:17 AM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline 		          Ok, I can't let all the self-loathing Americans who are falling all over themselves to apologize for my country go unanswered.  Did any of you happen to read the post from our Canadian member who had exactly the same sort of thing happen to her at a UK airport?  The very same airport Stella flew back to?

       I took a little time to go read some of Stella's stuff, online.  The song parody about waiting for the unemployment check, the fake interview about why it takes the welfare office so long to answer the phone, no shortage of Americans who can do that.

      I find the unmentionable aspect of this tale VERY troubling, and while the "high road" reply is admirable, I'm still waiting to hear what precautions might have been taken by the alleged "victim" to smooth her travel plans.  Entering the United States is not a Right.  There certainly is no ENTITLEMENT to do so.  It is a privilege to do that.  It's one our country grants quite widely, but not one you can just show up at the counter and demand.

      The problem of course, is that she is trying to come in legally.  It's the illegal immigrants who get all the special rights.

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If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


(in reply to Owner59)
Profile   Post #: 83
RE: My two impressions of America - 12/16/2007 8:15:29 AM   
pahunkboy


Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		How can the one poster say the OP is embellishing? Good thing ya never seen ME upset!  It isnt pleasant.  Had this happened to me- my response would have been alot more vocal then what Stella posted.

2. If the polical shoe fits- there is nothing to fear but fear itself.  Or in bushes case- everything is to fear.  especially men who are woman.   egads.

7 years later - soar winners.  -- what the heck was so illegal in this situation?   ??   What law was broken?     

(in reply to TheHeretic)
Profile   Post #: 84
RE: My two impressions of America - 12/16/2007 8:32:48 AM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline

Adjust your attitude to match the reality of having a currency worth shit. Looks like the only viable industry we have going forward is going to be Tourism, and we really shouldn't be shitting on our customers. That "Entry is a Privilege" shit is for people who can afford it. Bush ran up what, 9 - 10 Trillion Dollars of DEBT?





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ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to TheHeretic)
Profile   Post #: 85
RE: My two impressions of America - 12/16/2007 8:43:38 AM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline 		      Read this, Fargle, and then tell me about contributions to our economy...

http://www.mungos.org/Source%2012/docs/benefits.htm



_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 86
RE: My two impressions of America - 12/16/2007 12:00:05 PM   
angelikaJ


Posts: 8641
Joined: 6/22/2007
Status: offline 		the fact that this was going to be a family reunion for the holidays made the mentioning of the um non-gratuitous.

I am wondering then...and I certainly do not want to make an assumption here about something so important...is your concern that said um might be in an unsafe situation?

All children should be kept safe...but there is nothing that I have read in the lines or between the lines that remotely suggests something nefarious is afoot.

(and if you object to the validity of family reunions...'tis the season... family reunions are on every evening news this time of yr.)

Is that because you have personal views that children should be raised in "traditional homes" or that you haven't personaly been able to meet Stella and ascertain her fitness as a parental figure?


Everyday someone will gain access into this country who has no "right" to be here...and conversely, Stella is certainly not alone in what happened to her... ...nor is it unique to this country... but how can changes be made if the problem is not talked about?
These issues need names and faces or else they will never be addressed...

...meanwhile as the diligent employees are busy protecting us from the transexuals, guess who is in the next queue walking in...in theory ?

I did say this a page or 2 ago but I want to repeat it again here:
my tax dollars paid for the employees who behaved abhorently.

That is unacceptable to me and I want some accountability.
aJ



(in reply to TheHeretic)
Profile   Post #: 87
RE: My two impressions of America - 12/16/2007 12:46:50 PM   
NorthernGent


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Joined: 7/10/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyDemonikaTS

quote:

ORIGINAL: SgtZiggy

I hate to come across as an ass, but the immigration officials were right in denying the OP legal entry to the US, if two facts that I got from the disjointed rambling of the post are correct:

1: The OP has a penis.
2: The OP was attempting to enter the US on a passport that indicated that the OP is Female.

I've worked for an immigration attorney in the past, and this is a clear case of attempting to enter the US under false pretenses. A person with a penis, under US law, is legally male. Attempting to enter the US on a passport that describes the issuee as Female is grounds for deportation, and it is the practice of the US government to mark the refusal of entry on any documents presented that are suspected of being false or used improperly. Honestly, if you're coming to the US, I would expect you to follow our laws during the time you're here... We did have about 3000 of our countrymen (including 5 personal friends of mine) killed a few years back, largely due to being a bit lax on visa control.


Being TS is not an attempt to enter under false pretenses.  The person lives full time as female, and has the right to be regarded as such no matter what archaic beliefs might be spouted.



If Ziggy is correct in his statement regarding US law, then deportation was the only possible outcome. It's fair to say I'm a critic of US foreign policy, but within their own borders, it's their country to do as they see fit. It appears that the people of the US have a law that doesn't equate to British law; it's well documented that Western Europe is more liberal than the United States, so the wise move would have been to understand the cultural differences before travelling.

I wouldn't wish this episode on anyone as it sounds horrendous, but the rule of law is paramount, here.

_____________________________

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Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to LadyDemonikaTS)
Profile   Post #: 88
RE: My two impressions of America - 12/16/2007 1:38:33 PM   
LadyDemonikaTS


Posts: 12
Joined: 4/2/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

If Ziggy is correct in his statement regarding US law, then deportation was the only possible outcome. It's fair to say I'm a critic of US foreign policy, but within their own borders, it's their country to do as they see fit. It appears that the people of the US have a law that doesn't equate to British law; it's well documented that Western Europe is more liberal than the United States, so the wise move would have been to understand the cultural differences before travelling.

I wouldn't wish this episode on anyone as it sounds horrendous, but the rule of law is paramount, here.


I understand that, and sadly transsexuals in the US have very little legal protection (at least federally, some states do).  I just wanted to clarify that a transsexual entering a country is not entering under false pretenses.  Even most of the people working the posts at customs know this.  Sadly she was likely flagged for questioning just because she is TS.  And being TS this is just crap that we have to face.

I haven't had the chance to polish up on my US law regarding entering the country, but I would hope any law stating that entering "dressed as the other sex" type thing would be wiped by now.

I would highly recommend that any TS crossing a border carry the following: documents regarding name change, documents regarding transition, and if they have already had surgery, documents supporting that.

(in reply to NorthernGent)
Profile   Post #: 89
RE: My two impressions of America - 12/16/2007 1:42:54 PM   
luckydog1


Posts: 2736
Joined: 1/16/2006
Status: offline 		 
Aj, I could be wrong here, but in Stella's time line of the past several years as she has radically changed her life, I did not see the part where she was hanging out in Mississippi, or was Halley and her child over in the UK living with her in the shelter?  This sounds rather like they were planning a first real life meet.  A first time meeting of an internet fling is not a REUINION.  It is a first time meeting, and yeah I do think kids should be left out of those.  And that they do not already have a familly.  It does  seem to me that a person in radical flux could end up changing thier goals again, seems rather common. 

I notice that Stella changed her rant later in this post, leaving out the child, which will help her as she attempt to build a carreer out of this (likley planned) event.  So I think I did her a favor, in pointing it out, and have helped her more than any of you who chimed in with unqualified support..   Not that I actually expect a thank you or anything, the visible, clear actions demonstrates that my point was taken as valid.

Dragging a child who has no idea what is going on into this, and using her for tear jerk value strikes me as extremely exploitive (not in a sexual way).  And yeah I would prefer those who use kids in such a way stay on the other side of the ocean.

(in reply to NorthernGent)
Profile   Post #: 90
RE: My two impressions of America - 12/16/2007 2:13:43 PM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyDemonikaTS

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

If Ziggy is correct in his statement regarding US law, then deportation was the only possible outcome. It's fair to say I'm a critic of US foreign policy, but within their own borders, it's their country to do as they see fit. It appears that the people of the US have a law that doesn't equate to British law; it's well documented that Western Europe is more liberal than the United States, so the wise move would have been to understand the cultural differences before travelling.

I wouldn't wish this episode on anyone as it sounds horrendous, but the rule of law is paramount, here.


I understand that, and sadly transsexuals in the US have very little legal protection (at least federally, some states do).  I just wanted to clarify that a transsexual entering a country is not entering under false pretenses.  Even most of the people working the posts at customs know this.  Sadly she was likely flagged for questioning just because she is TS.  And being TS this is just crap that we have to face.

I haven't had the chance to polish up on my US law regarding entering the country, but I would hope any law stating that entering "dressed as the other sex" type thing would be wiped by now.

I would highly recommend that any TS crossing a border carry the following: documents regarding name change, documents regarding transition, and if they have already had surgery, documents supporting that.



Do you mean that if she was in men's clothes this wouldn't have happened?

_____________________________

"But Your Honor, this is not a Jury of my Peers, these people are all decent, honest, law-abiding citizens!"

(in reply to LadyDemonikaTS)
Profile   Post #: 91
RE: My two impressions of America - 12/16/2007 2:22:17 PM   
LadyDemonikaTS


Posts: 12
Joined: 4/2/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250
Do you mean that if she was in men's clothes this wouldn't have happened?


It still may have, considering her passport has a female name and the F for female.

For me though, since my passport has neither (name change in Quebec is hard and is $300-$600) I would have avoided.

(in reply to popeye1250)
Profile   Post #: 92
RE: My two impressions of America - 12/16/2007 3:54:47 PM   
laurell3


Posts: 6577
Joined: 5/5/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyDemonikaTS

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

If Ziggy is correct in his statement regarding US law, then deportation was the only possible outcome. It's fair to say I'm a critic of US foreign policy, but within their own borders, it's their country to do as they see fit. It appears that the people of the US have a law that doesn't equate to British law; it's well documented that Western Europe is more liberal than the United States, so the wise move would have been to understand the cultural differences before travelling.

I wouldn't wish this episode on anyone as it sounds horrendous, but the rule of law is paramount, here.


I understand that, and sadly transsexuals in the US have very little legal protection (at least federally, some states do).  I just wanted to clarify that a transsexual entering a country is not entering under false pretenses.  Even most of the people working the posts at customs know this.  Sadly she was likely flagged for questioning just because she is TS.  And being TS this is just crap that we have to face.

I haven't had the chance to polish up on my US law regarding entering the country, but I would hope any law stating that entering "dressed as the other sex" type thing would be wiped by now.

I would highly recommend that any TS crossing a border carry the following: documents regarding name change, documents regarding transition, and if they have already had surgery, documents supporting that.



I'm a white, yuppie, American female and I get flagged for questioning and searching all the time.  I'm not suggesting she didn't draw attention because of this, but I am pointing out that it happens to many of us now.  Unfortunately we seem to go from underreacting to completely overreacting on a massive scale in the US.

I have no idea what our current immigration law is and whether we recognize the UK's laws on transgender classifications on passports or what the work visa requirements are for UK citizens.  That I think is the answer.  I'm willing to bet if Stella gets ahold of someone that knows these answers she can figure out how to get into the country albeit with some harassment.  To suggest anyone doesn't have to follow the laws or they aren't right is just inviting another episode.  Whether one agrees or not, until the law is changed, following it is a necessity for travel for all of us.

I'm not suggesting they didn't treat her poorly or act like ignorant asses and that is in any way excusable.  I am suggesting that saying "the law isn't fair" doesn't really provide any answers for the immediate problem.

< Message edited by laurell3 -- 12/16/2007 3:56:55 PM >

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I cannot be defined by moments in my life, but must be considered for by the entirety of my existence.

When you fail to consider that I am the best judge for what is right for me, all of your opinions become suspect to me.

(in reply to LadyDemonikaTS)
Profile   Post #: 93
RE: My two impressions of America - 12/16/2007 4:15:15 PM   
Marc2b


Posts: 6660
Joined: 8/7/2006
Status: offline 		If I let myself go on this I’ll end up writing twenty pages so I’ll just say that I am gratified to see that you are free, Stella, and I wish you the best of luck in your efforts to right this wrong.

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Do you know what the most awesome thing about being an Atheist is? You're not required to hate anybody!

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Profile   Post #: 94
RE: My two impressions of America - 12/16/2007 4:17:46 PM   
Marc2b


Posts: 6660
Joined: 8/7/2006
Status: offline
quote:

I don't understand why this particular thread seems to be bringing out the worst in a few people, that makes no sense to me.


The same reasons the worst comes out in other threads...

Some people’s preconceived notions are validated and they want to crow about it.

Some people’s preconceived notions are challenged and they feel a need to defend them.

Neither group can understand the obstinance and stupidity of the other.

< Message edited by Marc2b -- 12/16/2007 4:47:23 PM >

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Do you know what the most awesome thing about being an Atheist is? You're not required to hate anybody!

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Profile   Post #: 95
RE: My two impressions of America - 12/16/2007 4:30:38 PM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: angelikaJ

there is nothing that I have read in the lines or between the lines that remotely suggests something nefarious is afoot.




         Assuming the post is still there, go read the the third quarter of the OP on the other thread.  Step back from liking one or both of the parties principal to the discussion.  Think about what is actually under consideration.  See any red flags there?   Have any questions come up in your mind?  If not, there won't be any point in me trying to answer. 

    Do keep in mind that we are on the internet here...    

< Message edited by TheHeretic -- 12/16/2007 4:54:17 PM >

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


(in reply to angelikaJ)
Profile   Post #: 96
RE: My two impressions of America - 12/16/2007 4:59:57 PM   
MzMia


Posts: 5333
Joined: 7/30/2004
Status: offline 		Stella, I know you were looking forward to coming to America.
When I read about what you went through, I was saddened.
 
One reason, you went through so many changes is you attempted to come here
legally.
 
If you had done what most do these days, just come through illegally, you would have had it much easier.
In fact, you would have probably been given a pass.
 
I hope you get this straightened out soon, and go through the endless paperwork that those attempting to come here legally go through.
 
Take care and good luck, Stella.

< Message edited by MzMia -- 12/16/2007 5:00:38 PM >

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(in reply to stella41b)
Profile   Post #: 97
RE: My two impressions of America - 12/16/2007 5:09:45 PM   
petdave


Posts: 2479
Status: offline 		Can't say it's all that surprising.... U.S. Homeland Security treats every U.S. citizen like bottom-of-the-barrel criminal scum, so it's hardly a shock to see them latch on to any pretense for disrupting someone's plans. i recommend limiting travel to free countries. 

(in reply to MzMia)
Profile   Post #: 98
RE: My two impressions of America - 12/16/2007 5:55:17 PM   
adoracat


Posts: 1779
Joined: 2/16/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: laurell3
I'm a white, yuppie, American female and I get flagged for questioning and searching all the time.  I'm not suggesting she didn't draw attention because of this, but I am pointing out that it happens to many of us now.  Unfortunately we seem to go from underreacting to completely overreacting on a massive scale in the US.


as an older white american female who was traveling with her child and using a wheelchair....i got flagged for the entire search.  take off those slippers, you may have explosives!

actual quote.  leopard print scuffs.  i couldnt hide toenail polish in those things.  good gravy.

stella, i'm sorry that you were so ill-treated.  no one deserves to be treated like a criminal for such reasons.

kitten

(in reply to laurell3)
Profile   Post #: 99
RE: My two impressions of America - 12/16/2007 7:48:51 PM   
ownedgirlie


Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline 		Well, everyone has to remove their shoes/slippers while flying, whether you are sitting or standing.

The problem is, the first time someone is NOT checked and gets into the plane with explosives...all hell will break loose as to how airport safety did not scrutinize travelers enough.  Remember the guy with the explosive shoe?

From what I have read here, the issue was not that Stella is TG, it was due to confusion of those who did not understand a Female passport being held by a person with a penis.  That said, it is reasonable to me that she was questioned and detained.  Tell me, if she was Seeq, Muslim, from Iraq, would people be reacting the same?

I am reminded of the story of the woman who was unfairly detained for spilling her glass of water, when upset when she was not allowed to carry it with her through the check point.  Everyone thought what an injustice that was, until surveillance cameras reflected a different story.

I do not know Stella.  I have nothing against her at all.  I understand her being extremely upset.   But I also know only one side of this story is being told, and until an actual investigation occurs (as happened with the water lady), we are only seeing one side of a story and screaming injustice to America as a result.

There is a reason both sides of the story is told in every trial.  I think Heretic is raising good questions.  Reminds me of 12 Angry Men here.  Maybe Heretic is totally wrong.  Maybe he has a point.  The truth is, we simply do not know.

Stella, if you were treated injustly, then that is indeed a shame, and you should press appropriate charges.  If you were treated in a way that follows US Protocol and you did not look into this before you traveled, then it has been an unfortunate and stressful lesson learned.  I do wish you the best.

(in reply to adoracat)
Profile   Post #: 100
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