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RE: Alternative upbringing and adult attitudes - 12/15/2007 8:49:55 PM   
AquaticSub


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quote:

ORIGINAL: hejira92

In his community- married women MUST wear wigs- no choice there- it is de facto. 
 

So what? Some BDSM groups require that all dominants and all submissives behave in a certain way or they are kicked out. Either way it is expressing yourself by living the way you want to live and not living the way someone else thinks you should.
quote:


Not all Orthodoxy is the same.

As I said, some groups are very strict, others are not. You did not specify in your first post. Either way, it is personal expression to choose to live that way. Confirmist would be to not live the way you want to because society or family disapproves. They live no more strict of a life than some of the slaves here on the board.

< Message edited by AquaticSub -- 12/15/2007 8:50:39 PM >

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

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(in reply to hejira92)
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RE: Alternative upbringing and adult attitudes - 12/15/2007 8:51:59 PM   
hejira92


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From: Palm Beach County, Fl
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quote:

ORIGINAL: spanklette

quote:

ORIGINAL: hejira92

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomMeinCT

It's interesting because, to your brother, your life as owned property might appear equally restrictive.



On one hand, true- if he knew. On the other hand he would understand the comfort in having the big decisions made for you. That is what his religion does for him.
 
 
I am sorry this thread has taken off towards my brother. I just mentioned him as an example of the same upbringing leading to a very different path and attitudes.


It seems strange to me that you wouldn't be open with your brother about the nature of your relationship. I guess it's because your parents were open about their alternative relatio.nship
 


Oh lord. Seems I've opened up a real can of worms.
 
My brother lives in Jeruselum. I may see him once a year. He is way more concerned that Master is not Jewish than he is about our dynamic. If I ever had a conversation with him about this topic, I would tell him. My mom knows, and my sisters kind of understand that Master is the "dominant personality" in our relationship. What they do all know is that I am happier than I ever have been before and, whatever we're doing to achieve that- keep on keeping on.

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RE: Alternative upbringing and adult attitudes - 12/15/2007 8:54:10 PM   
spanklette


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Status: offline 		You didn't have to explain...I was imagining all kinds of good reasons why!  

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(in reply to hejira92)
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RE: Alternative upbringing and adult attitudes - 12/15/2007 9:03:35 PM   
hejira92


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From: Palm Beach County, Fl
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quote:

ORIGINAL: AquaticSub

quote:

ORIGINAL: hejira92

In his community- married women MUST wear wigs- no choice there- it is de facto. 
 

So what? Some BDSM groups require that all dominants and all submissives behave in a certain way or they are kicked out. Either way it is expressing yourself by living the way you want to live and not living the way someone else thinks you should.
quote:


Not all Orthodoxy is the same.

As I said, some groups are very strict, others are not. You did not specify in your first post.  Either way, it is personal expression to choose to live that way. Confirmist would be to not live the way you want to because society or family disapproves. They live no more strict of a life than some of the slaves here on the board.


I did specify Ultra-Orthodox in my first post.
 
My brother and his wife did and do choose to live this way. They were as secular as could be for the first ten years of their marriage. They find it very fulfilling.
 
My original point was not that Orthodoxy is bad, or wrong, or too restrictive, but that, in finding comfort in that lifestyle, my brother was in some way responding to our upbringing- just as I embraced my parents' open-mindedness and experimentation, he found himself attracted to and embracing a more regulated life.

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RE: Alternative upbringing and adult attitudes - 12/15/2007 9:09:18 PM   
AquaticSub


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Status: offline 		I must have missed where you specifically said "ultra-Orthodox". I understand what you are trying to say, but you also said that you don't see any personal expression in that lifestyle whereas I see a great deal. The limits placed on Orthodox women really aren't different than limits placed on very high protocol slaves and so to say that they lack personal expression is to say the same about those in the BDSM lifestyle.

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

(in reply to hejira92)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: Alternative upbringing and adult attitudes - 12/15/2007 9:20:31 PM   
hejira92


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From: Palm Beach County, Fl
Status: offline 		I do see the parallels you mean, but I choose to submit. Well, it is my nature, but you know what I mean. A woman born into a strict community does not have the choices I do. And if she finds she has different needs, she must choose between them and her family.
 
The Orthodox women in my family are among the happiest and most fulfilled I know. They know where they stand in the world and what their relationships must be. But none that I know want to express themselves differently.
 
But I also know some gay men who used to be in that community- they had to leave the world they knew (and were rejected by it) to live freely.

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Profile   Post #: 26
RE: Alternative upbringing and adult attitudes - 12/15/2007 9:27:11 PM   
AquaticSub


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quote:

ORIGINAL: hejira92

I do see the parallels you mean, but I choose to submit. Well, it is my nature, but you know what I mean. A woman born into a strict community does not have the choices I do. And if she finds she has different needs, she must choose between them and her family.
 

That's not all that different then strict BDSM relationships. Some require that the master must come before family and others do have families reject them for being into BDSM.
quote:


The Orthodox women in my family are among the happiest and most fulfilled I know. They know where they stand in the world and what their relationships must be. But none that I know want to express themselves differently. 
 

That makes sense. If they did, they wouldn't be Orthodox women and you wouldn't know them as such.
quote:


But I also know some gay men who used to be in that community- they had to leave the world they knew (and were rejected by it) to live freely.

No community is perfect, including the BDSM community. Switches feel rejection on a regular basis for being what they are.



_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

(in reply to hejira92)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: Alternative upbringing and adult attitudes - 12/16/2007 9:47:52 AM   
DesFIP


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Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline 		Yes, the ultra orthodox women wear wigs when married, cover their hair otherwise to prevent other men from lusting over them. They save their crowning beauty for their husband who usually appreciates the great gift she gives him. She gives him something that nobody else ever sees, not like those of us who give it away to everybody on the street.

I find it funny that the op denigrates her brother's family for picking a highly structured routine when she has done the same by giving up the great freedom she boasts of her family of origin having. She just gives it up to one owner and accepts his highly structured routine instead of one that has been proven to work for the whole community.

Btw, it's not at all uncommon of children of nonreligious Jews to chose to become religious when they grow up. The op has just chosen a human to serve instead.

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RE: Alternative upbringing and adult attitudes - 12/16/2007 11:55:12 AM   
ownedgirlie


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Status: offline 		My sister is not Jewish, but ultra conservative Christian.  She wears a head covering, always.  Only her husband sees her hair (beautiful, lusciuos, golden hair).  She dresses extremely modestly.  She is following a rule book that she professes to believe in, and professes is the way to live.  She is a very unhappy woman.  Her children are not bright, happy souls, they are raised with a lot of rules that are, in my opinion, stifling.  Anything they witness in our out of their home that does not abide by the rules they are raised with, scares and stresses them.  The littlest nephew (6) is fascinated by my toenail polish, and that I wear jewelry.  The older one (9) is afraid of me for it...he thinks I am evil.

I am not denigrating their life choice, nor did I see hejira denigrate her brother.  We are both entitled to opinions that have us feeling such a way of living is limiting.  Perhaps her choice of words is what confused people, in thinking there is not much "freedom of expression" in that lifestyle.  The posters of this thread are correct - these siblings are free to express themselves as they wish, and this is their choice of expression.  My nephews, however, are not.  They can't go swimming (publicly or privately) without being fully dressed (modesty is a must).  The little guy's favorite color is pink, and he is not allowed pink things because he is a boy.  They are not allowed to talk about magic, or watch TV or listen to anything but Christian music.  My cell phone once rang over there, and it was an up-beat, kind of rockish tune.  The little one's eyes got wide and said, "That's the Devil's music!!!"

So tell me, are those boys free to express themselves naturally?  The little one is showing a LOT of feminine traits.  So they have him in counseling to "de-gay" him.  This is the kind of thing I believe hejira was speaking of, regarding no freedom to express oneself. 

I am mostly interested, however, in what her OP was originally about.  For some reason, everyone felt the need to jump on board the "You are wrong!!" train, and veer completely off course from her OP.  Maybe it's because most of the posters here were not raised in unconventional environments so can not comment on them.  I know I wasn't.  I was raised in a Catholic home - we went to church every Sunday.  Once a year the priest would come and do a rosary with us and bless the house and family.  We went to catechism.  My oldest brother & sister went to Catholic high schools.  We said Grace every night before dinner, and our prayers every night before bed.

As adults, one brother became born-again, then later returned to his Catholicism.  One sister became Hindu, and then Atheist, and has recently married a Catholic man who has brought her back to the Catholic church.  My other sister is the ultra conservative, my other brother is raising his kids Catholic in a Catholic school, but doesn't deeply believe in Catholic doctrine, and I have turned from my Christian faith and find more peace and reality in Buddhism and the Tao.  My Dad once said kids will eventually return to the beliefs with which they were raised, so he wasn't concerned that we all grew away from it, as he had faith we would eventually come back.  So far, 3 out of 5 have done so.  Perhaps that is because we return to where we are comfortable, and the beliefs we are raised with end up being the most familiar.  I really don't know.

I'd love to see this thread get back on course, though.  It's an interesting topic.

(in reply to DesFIP)
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RE: Alternative upbringing and adult attitudes - 12/16/2007 12:07:59 PM   
YourhandMyAss


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From: Sacramento
Status: offline 		We were raised that nudity was ok and our body was not something to be ashamed of or hide, and spent a lot of time naked as children, so consequently as an adult I abhore clothing. I get antsy and uncomfortable and impatient to get out of them when forced to be in them. Even in winter I try to be naked as much as possible, and it's really a noticable diffrence in my comfortableness when I am somewhere I have to wear clothing all the time. I can't describe the feeling, but it's a reliefe to finally beable to take the clothes off after having to be in them long periods of time. I went to my brother's wedding in luisianna, and sleeping on the floor of his and his wifes room, ment panties on all night, I can't tell you what a relief it was to come home and be able to sleep in what was the most natural way for me, au natural. As for bdsm, and how it's affected me, I have no qualms about taking it all off and wandering about sometimes even forget I am naked, like at MAster's den, I spent the whole time not playing up stairs naked, or being played with, I'm not shy at all. and I really think it's cause I am so comfortable naked and
quote:

  
Anyway, I was wondering if anyone else here had an upbringing that deviated from the conventional mores or norms in some way and has it affected you as an adult and in BDSM? 
 

 

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RE: Alternative upbringing and adult attitudes - 12/16/2007 1:44:50 PM   
flower2007


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quote:

ORIGINAL: hejira92
Anyway, I was wondering if anyone else here had an upbringing that deviated from the conventional mores or norms in some way and has it affected you as an adult and in BDSM?


After thinking about this a little bit more, I think I had such an upbringing.  I was raised in a fairly strict enviroment, military officer father and all.  I *think* that's why, even though most would call me "submissive", I really hate the idea of submitting to anyone.  I don't like being told what to do.  The funny thing is, I rarely do anything wrong to begin with.

I'm just not sure which came first, the "submissive" part, or the not wanting to submit part, lol.

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RE: Alternative upbringing and adult attitudes - 12/16/2007 5:02:26 PM   
DesFIP


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Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline 		I'm sorry your sister and her family are so unhappy. I can't imagine a mother trying to make her own ums unhappy, and telling them they aren't lovable as they are. That's just horrible.

But the op isn't saying that her brother and his family are unhappy, she's just denigrating them for choosing a religious structure whereas she has also chosen a highly structured lifestyle. She doesn't seem to realize that she's rebelled against her very liberal upbringing as much as her brother has. He consented to this, and that's what she's missing. They have the option to refuse but haven't chosen to do so.

What comes across in the op is her attitude of how much better and 'cooler' she is for choosing to be in a D/s relationship. Not the mark of a close family, to be putting someone down for finding what is right for him.

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RE: Alternative upbringing and adult attitudes - 12/16/2007 5:54:14 PM   
ownedgirlie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

I'm sorry your sister and her family are so unhappy. I can't imagine a mother trying to make her own ums unhappy, and telling them they aren't lovable as they are. That's just horrible.


She isn't trying to make them unhappy (where did that comment come from?).  She is trying to be happy and trying to create a happy home, but doing so based on a rule book that is not working for them.  Hence, they are all unhappy. I am sorry for them, too, and try to hang out with the boys whenever I can.

I agree it is terrible to try to "de-gay" the youngest.  She loves him, but fears God's wrath will strike him.  I did not say she does not love him.  But I disagree with her approach with him, and have told her that.

quote:


But the op isn't saying that her brother and his family are unhappy, she's just denigrating them for choosing a religious structure whereas she has also chosen a highly structured lifestyle. She doesn't seem to realize that she's rebelled against her very liberal upbringing as much as her brother has. He consented to this, and that's what she's missing. They have the option to refuse but haven't chosen to do so.

She made a point to say, in a clarifying post, that for her it would not be a way to freely express herself.  I saw no denigration in her words.  As I mentioned in my last post, I think she may have used the wrong words, and everyone took off with it.  But I did not see anything in her words that were insulting of her brother or his family.  She said their lifestyle would not allow her to freely express herself.  If anything was denigrated, it was the life they chose, not the family itself.

quote:


What comes across in the op is her attitude of how much better and 'cooler' she is for choosing to be in a D/s relationship. Not the mark of a close family, to be putting someone down for finding what is right for him.


Wow, I did not see that at all. 

"my elder brother reacted to our liberal upbringing by becoming an ultra-orthodox jew. He wears a beard, a black hat and sleeps with his wife only on proscribed days. His son married after meeting the girl four times. Not much freedom of expression in THAT lifestyle!"

"THAT lifestyle" refers to the subject of the sentence, which is living as an ultra-orthodox jew. She said there isn't much freedom expression in that lifestyle (and later clarified it as pertaining to herself).  She did not say anything negative about her brother.

Just as I find my sister's choice of lifestyle utterly stifling, I would in no way put her down for it, and did not.  I love my sister and wish she lived more freely, as I think she would be happier (and I have seen her happier in a "free'er" lifestyle).  I think hejira was saying pretty much the same.

There are things being commented on that were never said in the OP or subsequent posts. 

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RE: Alternative upbringing and adult attitudes - 12/16/2007 9:28:53 PM   
DomMeinCT


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quote:

ORIGINAL: hejira92

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomMeinCT

It's interesting because, to your brother, your life as owned property might appear equally restrictive.



On one hand, true- if he knew. On the other hand he would understand the comfort in having the big decisions made for you. That is what his religion does for him.
 
 
I am sorry this thread has taken off towards my brother. I just mentioned him as an example of the same upbringing leading to a very different path and attitudes.


I'm not sorry about the thread - it's interesting and spirited.  So I hope you don't find it argumentative if I continue this offshoot (it's not my intention to have an argument), because I still find it interesting that you see only the part of his comfort in having the "big" decisions made for him.  First, as others have already pointed out, he and his wife have chosen this path and must take some delight in following it in their everyday ritual.  Many of us find comfort in the things we do every day, even when it's not for religious reasons.

But the second part that I think is more important is that beyond the ritual, as a Jew, he is invited and has the freedom to think and argue and disagree and question - isn't that what Midrash is all about?  Where you see limitations, I see that his daily ritual allows many freedoms to think that others may not permit. 

All that being said, I think the two of you are a good example of paths diverging from the same road.

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