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RE: Outed in reverse, and demo doms taking advantage... - 12/19/2007 12:20:58 PM   
DarkDaddyZ


Posts: 805
Joined: 4/7/2006
Status: offline 		Tigrita!  Didn't you know that the holiday season causes many people to experience the disease HMDS?  It'll clear up by the New Year, you'll see.

Keep your head up!

Z-

_____________________________

"Flirting is part of the job description." DJ Jesus (Lucy Daughter Of The Devil)

Vanilla Official Music Page http://www.myspace.com/djzulu

(in reply to LadyHugs)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: Outed in reverse, and demo doms taking advantage... - 12/19/2007 12:27:23 PM   
Tigrita


Posts: 484
Joined: 8/16/2007
From: California
Status: offline 		Thanks for the support and input everyone.  Lots of good ideas in how to handle all the situations, and I admit, I certainly had a part in creating these situations, and I intend to change that.  The 'outing' in reverse has happened twice now.  The first time, I told the person later that I wasn't comfortable with just anyone knowing my personal info, and he said "of course, I wouldn't discuss your private life with strangers."  He didn't even realize that he just had, a couple hours before...  I corrected him, but it just concerns me that people are understanding and intend to be considerate, but it just slips their mind...  I will be more careful about who I let in on my vanilla info, and be clear that it is privilaged info not to be discussed around others. 

As for the doms taking advantage, I've told the group leader before that tickling is a limit, and I did tell him I don't like the pressure points but I should be more assertive about it.  He hasn't done it again, but at the same time I don't think he really takes it seriously, so I will find a way to make it very clear before the next meeting.  Actually his sub who also knows I hate tickling who tickled my foot last night.  My feet aren't really ticklish so I didn't care at the time, but realizing she knowingly violated my limit really frustrated me.  It is so hard to convince people tickling is a limit, 'cause you can't die from it or anything and it sounds like you're having fun because you laugh, but, crap, it really pisses me off!  

I think I will make a light-hearted public announcement at the beginning of the next meeting, asking to recruit nobel dominants to protect me while I'm tied from abusers who might try to violate my limits of tickling, pressure points, and non-consensual touching while I'm tied.  I think that will keep it light, keep specific people's names out of it, keep the audience at large aware, and encourage support of my position.


_____________________________

~ Tigrita

There is no right path, only the path you take.

Success is making life happen, versus just letting life happen to you.

"Many of the things I enjoy, I enjoy because I don't enjoy them." - Charlotte

(in reply to Tigrita)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: Outed in reverse, and demo doms taking advantage... - 12/19/2007 12:32:14 PM   
Stephann


Posts: 4214
Joined: 12/27/2006
From: Portland, OR
Status: offline 		Darlin,

We've already talked about much of this stuff so this is more for other folks.

Rant #1; It might not hurt to change your name slightly.  I've tried googling yours, and I can't find any personally identifiable information (unless I use your last name) so you're pretty safe there.  Still, if I introduced myself as "Stephen from CA" I'd be pretty safe.  It's a tough call.  A quick whisper in the friend/acquaintance's ear that "careful with my personal info, please" might be in order though; some people just don't think.

Rant #2; Since it's someone you know and have worked with before, I suggest you need to decide if their friendship and interaction is worth maintaining.  As you clearly feel it is, then writing a respectful but firm handwritten letter saying "I really enjoy playing/tying/demoing with you, but these are some very serious limits that I need to clearly draw; if they're crossed again, I'm no longer going to be willing to continue scening with you."  If anything less than a sincere display of contrition comes, then obviously this is a person you really shouldn't be engaging in activities with.

Rant #3; Something similar happened to gretchen at a much a couple years ago.  I was there, but didn't see what happened. She told me about it half an hour later, and angry as I was (and I wanted to literally throw his ass off the top of that building) I put my hand on his shoulder, and growled to him, very quietly "You know better than to TOUCH without PERMISSION."  He turned four shades of white, and I doubt he's ever done it since.

Damage done, but we survived in once piece.

Stephan

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"The blade itself incites to violence" - Homer

Men: Find a Woman here

(in reply to DarkDaddyZ)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: Outed in reverse, and demo doms taking advantage... - 12/19/2007 12:40:56 PM   
LadyHugs


Posts: 2299
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		Dear Tigrita,
 
Personally--I would not make it a 'light hearted' announcement.  They are not taking you seriously and being sweet isn't going to make a point.  I am not saying you have to swear, use profanity and or act ugly.  But, make a serious point.  If you must be angry when you get up to address the crowd/people.  A 'dominant' posture-in your face-- 'You will NOT do this again.'
 
If I was in your position -- I would loudly protest someone touching--cause attention, be noticed.  Violation of limits--especially hard ones; are like violating the safe word RED or being 'raped.'  If they aren't going to respect you now--withdraw yourself from those who don't respect you--let them torture someone else.  This is the time to be your own 'white knight.'
 
If you were my slave--I am sure I will leave no doubt in anybody's mind--that you will not be tickled period.  If they dare--they will deal with me--and that won't be pretty.
 
wiki.answers.com/Q/Is_excessive_tickling_abuse - 74k - Similar pages
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Is_excessive_tickling_abuse
 
http://www.narcissistic-abuse.com/abuse.html
 
In summary--these sites state that when the tickled ask/beg to have the tickling stopped--failure is deemed torture and abuse.  In addition, prolonged tickling can lead to breathlessness, which then can lead to choking and or vomiting.  Not allowing a person to breath--can also cause panic.  Those who are abused by tickling, are also proned to depression.  Tickling can lead to coughing--cannot breath while coughing.  In my opinion--this is a form of suffocation and or 'breath play' which may/may not be wise to do.
 
So--as I stated, put it in such a way that there is a reason to honor YOUR limits as far as tickling goes.
 
This is my support for why 'tickling abuse' can/may lead to death--

 
Just some thoughts.
 
Respectfully submitted for consideration,
Lady Hugs
 
 
 
 

< Message edited by LadyHugs -- 12/19/2007 12:58:26 PM >

(in reply to Tigrita)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: Outed in reverse, and demo doms taking advantage... - 12/19/2007 12:58:29 PM   
Tigrita


Posts: 484
Joined: 8/16/2007
From: California
Status: offline 		Particular thanks to you LadyHugs for your very thoughtful, thorough, and sincere sentiments and suggestions.  I will certainly stand up for myself and make sure this behavior doesn't continue. 

~ J


_____________________________

~ Tigrita

There is no right path, only the path you take.

Success is making life happen, versus just letting life happen to you.

"Many of the things I enjoy, I enjoy because I don't enjoy them." - Charlotte

(in reply to LadyHugs)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: Outed in reverse, and demo doms taking advantage... - 12/19/2007 2:21:01 PM   
Tigrita


Posts: 484
Joined: 8/16/2007
From: California
Status: offline 		Thank you Sir, I will be writing that letter.  I know you would defend me ruthlessly if you were there.  I do want to be able to stand up for myself too though and handle it well. 

I will write the letter to the instructor, and also make an assertive announcement to the class as to unacceptable behavior towards me while I'm tied.  I'll also have to be more conscious of what is going on and who/where people are while I'm being tied and not just drift off into happy, oblivious rope slut space, and make sure the insturctor is more aware and defensive about other people around me too.  

Thanks again everyone.  I hope this thread helps other bottoms who participate in things like this stand up for themselves. 

DarkDaddyZ, what is HDMS?


_____________________________

~ Tigrita

There is no right path, only the path you take.

Success is making life happen, versus just letting life happen to you.

"Many of the things I enjoy, I enjoy because I don't enjoy them." - Charlotte

(in reply to Stephann)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: Outed in reverse, and demo doms taking advantage... - 12/19/2007 3:32:46 PM   
DesFIP


Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline 		The only person who can put an end to it is you. Next time someone comes up and begins to say "Hey, Jane Doe, long time since we worked together at the ABCD Corp, how is it there?", you yell "stop" just as they say Jane. They'll stop and look at you and you tell them, "when I'm here I only respond to my scene name because there are all kinds of creepy types listening who would stalk me and I don't want that". And then, when everybody's listening to you because of your yell, you go up to the group leader and ask if keeping personal info personal isn't one of the group rules and would they please enforce it for a change.

Same thing with the workshop. The next time he gets you tied up and starts to tickle, yell "Red, red, red" loud and clear. And then yell 'I said tickling and hitting pressure points was a hard limit. How dare you break my hard limit?". Now here you may want to tell him that you're going to do this in order to let everyone know he can't be trusted. Or you may not, because the truth is he is breaking your hard limit and he is not being trustworthy. You need to be loud so as many people as possible hear, because they will all agree with you. Nobody wants to be outed to some creepy type listening in and nobody wants to play with someone who won't respect a hard limit.

_____________________________

Slave to laundry

Cynical and proud of it!


(in reply to LadyHugs)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: Outed in reverse, and demo doms taking advantage... - 12/19/2007 3:47:19 PM   
Sinergy


Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Phin

Rant #1 The only way I can thing to reduce (still not stop) the giving out of your information is to tell them not to pass it out when you give it to them.

Rant #2 and 3 If my limits were pushed like that, I would not play with the person that again.


What he said.

I seldom share my inner world with people, and I point out to them when I invite them in that if they betray me it is unlikely they will ever be allowed back in.

Sinergy


_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


(in reply to Phin)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: Outed in reverse, and demo doms taking advantage... - 12/19/2007 6:48:56 PM   
YourhandMyAss


Posts: 5516
Joined: 6/25/2006
From: Sacramento
Status: offline 		Were they aware you wanted to get away from them, Iwill openly admit to sometimes in the past not realizing people wanted to get away and being clueless while they stood there pinned, they gave no indication they wanted to get away, however some people are socially clueless sometimes and wouldn't recognize an attempt to get away unless you said I am trying to get away from you lol.

quote:

ORIGINAL: topcat

Well, that may work fine for you-
 
Oftentimes I have found myself trapped in a conversation with someone that resisted my efforts to disengage from politely, and it's been handy to scratch my nose and have a friend come over to make noises about having to get the sitter home or the like.

(in reply to topcat)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Outed in reverse, and demo doms taking advantage... - 12/19/2007 6:51:36 PM   
YourhandMyAss


Posts: 5516
Joined: 6/25/2006
From: Sacramento
Status: offline 		Call the house safe word next time they willingly do that.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Tigrita

Actually his sub who also knows I hate tickling who tickled my foot last night.  My feet aren't really ticklish so I didn't care at the time, but realizing she knowingly violated my limit really frustrated me.  It is so hard to convince people tickling is a limit, 'cause you can't die from it or anything and it sounds like you're having fun because you laugh, but, crap, it really pisses me off!  


(in reply to Tigrita)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: Outed in reverse, and demo doms taking advantage... - 12/19/2007 7:06:00 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		What does everything in your post have in common, people invading your boundaries... why does it continue to rankle? Because you have not reinforced your boundaries by telling people they had overstepped your line.

I was at work a couple of months ago and a customer made comments to another customer about my breasts, how nice they were, as if i was not there. I did not know what to say, so I said nothing... he overstepped my boundary, and by not saying anything I "allowed" it. It bothered me just as much that I allowed it (was a victim) as it did that he invaded my boundaries.

Boundaries are very important, demand others respect yours in a very firm way, and you will feel all the more empowered for it, and you will never be a victim in your own mind.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to Tigrita)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Outed in reverse, and demo doms taking advantage... - 12/19/2007 7:10:05 PM   
Sinergy


Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

What does everything in your post have in common, people invading your boundaries... why does it continue to rankle? Because you have not reinforced your boundaries by telling people they had overstepped your line.

I was at work a couple of months ago and a customer made comments to another customer about my breasts, how nice they were, as if i was not there. I did not know what to say, so I said nothing... he overstepped my boundary, and by not saying anything I "allowed" it. It bothered me just as much that I allowed it (was a victim) as it did that he invaded my boundaries.

Boundaries are very important, demand others respect yours in a very firm way, and you will feel all the more empowered for it, and you will never be a victim in your own mind.


I pointed out to julia after the fact that she could have told him (loudly, in public) that such comments were really innapropriate to make to an employee doing her job.

I also mentioned that if he persisted, she should have her supervisor deal with the issue.  That is why the pay them the big bucks.

Sinergy


_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Outed in reverse, and demo doms taking advantage... - 12/19/2007 7:57:36 PM   
CalifChick


Posts: 10717
Joined: 10/28/2007
From: California
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHugs

Regarding Rant #1.  Oh I have had individuals countless times slip my personal information more than once but, those in the scene who slipped their tongue I cut off from any and all communication



Not to detract from the seriousness of the original post (and all I can say is "ditto ditto ditto" to what has already been said), but I just officially became very very skeered of LadyHugs... I swore she said "I cut their tongue off."  <GULP>

Cali


_____________________________

AKA "The Undisputed Goddess of Sarcasm", "Big Bad Cali" and "Yum Bum". Advisor to the Subbie Mafia, founding member of the W.A.C. and the Judgmental Bitches Brigade, member of the Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair-a's and Team Troll

(in reply to LadyHugs)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: Outed in reverse, and demo doms taking advantage... - 12/19/2007 9:09:24 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline 		I love these rants, this is exactly what a rant should be- legitimate issue, legitimate reasonable level of venting, mixed with a sincere desire to grow beyond the point you are now.

Point 1- that's just a mix of bad luck and timing mostly.  Once you put info out there, it's out there.  You can ask others nicely, but it's not their responsibility to keep information down low.  I personally work across the street from one of the most awesome donut shops in the world, so telling people where I work tends to make them feel more connected to me and impressed and get smiles.  I also have very low risk issues.  But I NEVER make anyone else responsible for MY outness.  That is mine and mine alone- I know there are idiots out there and either I keep it to myself or I just figure it's all out.

Point 2- As Top said, freezing in the moment is good, they WANT a reaction.  Also work on your death at 20 meters stare.  Later you can explain how you considered it rude and inappropriate and appreciate them not intentionally pushing things in the future unless they want you to act rude and do things they don't enjoy to them in public on a regular basis as well (not that their lack of propriety excuses your own, but it can help get the message across)

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"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to CalifChick)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Outed in reverse, and demo doms taking advantage... - 12/19/2007 10:07:45 PM   
soul2share


Posts: 7084
Joined: 12/18/2007
From: somewhere out there.....
Status: offline 		I too am very careful about my personal information...fortunately, the few I have as friends are in the same career field as I am, and they value their privacy just as much as I do.  You won't find me listed in any phone book, my cell is a pay as you go untraceable one, even googling me won't get any current information.  You'll just have to explain to folks that your personal    life and info is just that...not open for discussion, and certainly not to be given freely.

As far as the other problems....If you have already spoken to  the Demo Dom about tickling you, and he continues to do so, then the suggestion to safeword out and leave him without a volunteer would work....for myself, tickling is a hard limit, he'd end up with an elbow to the nose for sure.  Tickling me is a sure way to not only piss me off, but to encourage a very violent reaction.  And he should have been aware of Stranger Dude taking advantage of your position, and stopped him before he even got close enough to touch you.....of course, if he was unaware that SD was there, a good swift kick to the SD's groin area would have definitely gotten his attention!  Restrained in any fashion is not an opportunity for just anyone to start playing wth someone.  

Just my .05 worth!


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I have to stop saying "How stupid can you be?"...people are starting to take it as a challenge!

*Not a fuck was given.*

(in reply to LadyHugs)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: Outed in reverse, and demo doms taking advantage... - 12/19/2007 10:29:06 PM   
Tigrita


Posts: 484
Joined: 8/16/2007
From: California
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

What does everything in your post have in common, people invading your boundaries... why does it continue to rankle? Because you have not reinforced your boundaries by telling people they had overstepped your line.

I was at work a couple of months ago and a customer made comments to another customer about my breasts, how nice they were, as if i was not there. I did not know what to say, so I said nothing... he overstepped my boundary, and by not saying anything I "allowed" it. It bothered me just as much that I allowed it (was a victim) as it did that he invaded my boundaries.

Boundaries are very important, demand others respect yours in a very firm way, and you will feel all the more empowered for it, and you will never be a victim in your own mind.


Well, you do say it like it is (and the others who have said similar).  Yes, I am afraid to admit I can often be more concerned about not ruffling feathers myself, rationalizing and making excuses for others than I am about my own boundaries in some cases.  It is ridiculous, and hard for me to admit that I let that happen, and I'm not really sure how to change it.  And afterwards, I feel just like you said, just as bad for letting it happen as for the invasion its self.  I'll be standing up for myself about this, and I guess awareness and practice will make perfect as far as handling future circumstances.  As LA suggested, I'll work on that 'death at 20 meters stare'!

LA, thanks for the encouragement.  And you helped me think of the privacy issue a little differently.  I suppose it is most safely considered an all or nothing thing.  Like pictures that may make it onto the internet.  Once it is out there, you have to be prepared for the worst, you are either private, or out.  I didn't really think of it that way before.

Thanks everyone.

~ J

< Message edited by Tigrita -- 12/19/2007 11:08:08 PM >

_____________________________

~ Tigrita

There is no right path, only the path you take.

Success is making life happen, versus just letting life happen to you.

"Many of the things I enjoy, I enjoy because I don't enjoy them." - Charlotte

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Outed in reverse, and demo doms taking advantage... - 12/20/2007 5:41:57 AM   
RedMagic1


Posts: 6470
Joined: 5/10/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Tigrita

Yes, I am afraid to admit I can often be more concerned about not ruffling feathers myself, rationalizing and making excuses for others than I am about my own boundaries in some cases.  It is ridiculous, and hard for me to admit that I let that happen, and I'm not really sure how to change it. 

~ J

Like anything else -- practice.  I've had to deal with similar things inside myself, and I have helped friends do it too.  The most important point is this: the first few times (maybe the first 100 times) you do it things will come out wrong.  Your announcement at the munch will be obnoxious, julia's reaction to the customer will be shrill, etc.  Not because you suck, but because you are doing something brand new.  It is more important that you just spit the words out.  You already know how to be polite.  Now you need to learn "assertive."  When you've got that in your toolbox, you can be *both* assertive and polite.

(in reply to Tigrita)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: Outed in reverse, and demo doms taking advantage... - 12/20/2007 6:50:31 AM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

I think that will keep it light, keep specific people's names out of it, keep the audience at large aware, and encourage support of my position.


If you make it light, there is a good chance you will not be taken seriously.


_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to Tigrita)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Outed in reverse, and demo doms taking advantage... - 12/20/2007 7:05:45 AM   
LadyHugs


Posts: 2299
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		Dear CalifChick,
 
As much as I would like to hack out those with Ex-Lax mouths, to which I am well equipped to do--I just wouldn't do it--might bloody my fancy gloves or blood gets into the diamond settings. [Smiles] 
I do have a very nice collection of knives and ax, sword and rapier.
Fun would be to single tail the tongue hanging out or, mild treatment would be rat trap on the tongue. Tongue piercing..well, tongue could be locked into place using their belly button piercing or lower--ears will do if necessary also. [Smiles] 
 
By saying 'cutting off' all communication --it means zero communication -- not even in Sign Language.  No news--their tongues will only wag on assumptions--not facts, which are personal.
 
Just some thoughts.
 
Respectfully submitted with Sadistic creativity and humor,
Lady Hugs

(in reply to CalifChick)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Outed in reverse, and demo doms taking advantage... - 12/20/2007 7:26:18 AM   
SweetSarijane


Posts: 3788
Joined: 10/7/2005
From: KC area Missouri
Status: offline 		Tigrita,

I am so sorry these things have happened to you. I too have been more prone to avoid ruffling feathers, keep the peace, rationalize and make excuses for others' behavior. I'm getting better though and have grown more assertive in situations along the lines of yours. I like the advice Stefann gave you. Situations like this, I wouldn't worry about hurt feelings or embarassment of those others. They chose to act as they did apparently knowing it was against your limits. While you don't have to be nasty, a clear statement that if your limits of tickling, inapropriate touching, etc. aren't respected then you will no longer bottom for them for demos or anything and then following through if they choose to ignore this will get your point across.

As for the first part. If you choose to give such info to a person, make it clear it is not to be repeated at all to others and if it is, speak up about it and if necessary limit or cut contact with the offender and tell them why you are doing so.

I hope things get resolved for you in these situations and again, I'm sorry you had to go through that.

Take care.

_____________________________

Sarah2
Deviant Mind
Wild Side Readers KCSass

(in reply to LadyHugs)
Profile   Post #: 40
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