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RE: Is professional domination legal? - 12/20/2007 6:04:31 PM

sissy2screw

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lol !!!

Jerry Springer wrote a check to a whore house when he was Mayor of Cincinnati... They took the check...So bring your checkbook

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RE: Is professional domination legal? - 12/20/2007 6:05:19 PM

unforegvn

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AFlyInYourWeb

quote:

ORIGINAL: dsubmissiveman

... under our corporate expense policy and given the small amount (hourly sessions are usually $200-$300), I probably would not have much difficulty sliding this past our accounting department.

LMAO!!

I wonder what account the accounting department would charge that expense to: Supplementary Employee Benefits? Employee Training?

Diversity & Inclusion Training - air, lodging, meals, beating by pro-domme - is this part of the don't ask don't tell policy?

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RE: Is professional domination legal? - 12/20/2007 6:13:39 PM

MisPandora

Posts: 2911
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quote:

ORIGINAL: RedMagic1

Ms. Saskia's from Colorado. There's a case at the Supreme Court there about a city trying to shut down a fully licensed BDSM club. She and I have discussed that situation at length. I've donated to the club's legal defense fund, for Pete's sake. At least one of the people (and no I'm not saying who) who has responded to you on this very thread is a scene-aware attorney. You're not getting uninformed opinions here. People have good reason to be wary of the excesses of government even though they operate 100% within the law.

Oh for fuck's sake people. The issue IS legality.

There is nowhere, including NEVADA, where BDSM is expressly written as "legal" in any state law in the United States. Furthermore, to my knowledge, BDSM is not expressly written into law as something "legal" or something that you can be licensed for in Canada.

Now, you can have 101 business licenses, permits, insurance certificates, certificates of occupancy, etc -- but the very fact of the matter is that there ARE laws on the books that prohibit some or most of the activities that are done IN the dungeon and playspace, whether it's pro or not.

If you have any concerns about it, call a lawyer or the District Attorney office in your jurisdicton.

And the OP should just call it quits and speak with :
Municipal Licensing and Standards in Toronto: 416-395-7010
Toronto Police, Director Puglash, Public Affairs Unit: 416-808-7100
the provincial Ministry of the Attorney General in his province: http://www.attorneygeneral.jus.gov.on.ca/
do some research in the consolidated statutes: http://www.e-laws.gov.on.ca/navigation?file=home&lang=en

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Post #: 83

RE: Is professional domination legal? - 12/20/2007 6:17:33 PM

MisPandora

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quote:

ORIGINAL: backseatbebe

who are any of you to say he wants to cheat his company?!

Slow down. Re-read one of the original posts where he divulged what he's doing. He actually SAYS that he's deceiving them by "slipping it through", so to speak. He's the one that fully admitted that he's committing the offense. Perhaps in Canada, cheating one's business by putting personal/sexual expenses on your business account is ok, but I know it's not here in the states. Anyone recall the name of the pro that got drug through the mud as result of the fellow working for a non-profit that was accused of using donated monies towards his "training" with her?

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RE: Is professional domination legal? - 12/20/2007 6:35:41 PM

dsubmissiveman

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MissPandora,

I went through the municipality and asked yesterday. I am awaiting their feedback. However, it is one of those things where there really are no clear answers because some establishments starts setting their own rules and many do not use business licenses.

As far as being naive about visiting a pro domme, well, to be honest, I didn't think issuing a receipt would have been that much of a hassle. Like I said, I have only inquired to three establishments, but there are many choices in this city so I should be able to find one that will accomodate me.

Lastly, my employer has in the past expensed non-business related businesses as long as there was a proper paper trail and they could justify it under some type of business related activity (which when you have all the different categories, is not that difficult to do) and your performance is up to par. So until they tell me otherwise, I'm going to do what I have always done.

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RE: Is professional domination legal? - 12/20/2007 7:18:56 PM

Maya2001

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LOL it is not so much a problem hiding the expenses but if the goverment decides to audit the companies books, and as the saying goes shit rolls downhill, you can be damn sure the accountant is not going to say they knew it was sexual entertainment expense nor is the owner going to acknowledge he knew what it was, so whose lap will it fall in ??? so if a problem is found the auditor can than order to have the books checked for the past 7 years which can result in repayments and fraud charges and I am pretty sure the boss is not going to let his head get caught in the noose and admit he knew what the receipts were actually for, and the accountant will simply say well he claimed it was for such and such expense so the next person they approach is the one who was issued the receipt and everyone else will play dumb when the axe falls

One reason for a pro domme not to provide receipts or take credit cards is to protect herself and her clients should the authorities ever decide to enter and do a seizure because some holy roller neighbour or disgruntled clieny makes an anonymous call claiming prostitution is occuring there, and oops!-- if a reciept is found with your name on it guess what you can charged as well and or possibly dragged into court as a witness while the court decides if it is indeed provide prostitution services/operating as a bawdy house and of course newspapers love this sort of thing, by the end of the trial the courts could rule it was operating legally but a paper trail can ruin a lot of reputations in the process

And I do know of one in TO that does accept credit cards

< Message edited by Maya2001 -- 12/20/2007 7:45:40 PM >

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RE: Is professional domination legal? - 12/20/2007 8:26:20 PM

cdclaireck

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Hi all,

First time poster here, I want to see this going to find the outcome.

When the op finds a Pro Domme who will issue him a receipt for the services rendered, I am going to love to see what the accounting department will save to a $200 - $300 expense claim. Any department with any professional accountant will question that one, when you can't explain it all this drama will be a waste of time or if you say it is as Pro Domme receipt I bet no matter how good you are at your job, it will be time to start a search for a new one.

This is a lot different scenario then taking clients to a strip club, I wish you the best of luck on this.

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RE: Is professional domination legal? - 12/20/2007 8:37:18 PM

CalifChick

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quote:

ORIGINAL: dsubmissiveman

However, it really is not that uncommon for many professionals to get certain activities expensed through their employer eventhough they do not related remotely to their work performance.

Yeah, well, it's still ILLEGAL unless you claim it as additional income on your own tax return.

If none of that bothers you (not reporting this additional income), then I am failing to see why generating your own official-looking receipt on your computer would bother you either. And oh gosh, she is not at that name and address anymore? Well she must have moved or gone out of business by the time anyone gets around to checking up on you.

You can claim drinks and entertainment as a business expense if the appropriate parameters are followed. I am failing to see how the services of a Pro Domme even come close to food and drink.

quote:

Lastly, my employer has in the past expensed non-business related businesses as long as there was a proper paper trail and they could justify it under some type of business related activity (which when you have all the different categories, is not that difficult to do) and your performance is up to par. So until they tell me otherwise, I'm going to do what I have always done.

Oh pray tell, how exactly is your visit to a Pro Domme a "business related activity"???

Cali

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RE: Is professional domination legal? - 12/20/2007 9:11:01 PM

dsubmissiveman

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quote:

LOL it is not so much a problem hiding the expenses but if the goverment decides to audit the companies books, and as the saying goes shit rolls downhill, you can be damn sure the accountant is not going to say they knew it was sexual entertainment expense nor is the owner going to acknowledge he knew what it was, so whose lap will it fall in ??? so if a problem is found the auditor can than order to have the books checked for the past 7 years which can result in repayments and fraud charges and I am pretty sure the boss is not going to let his head get caught in the noose and admit he knew what the receipts were actually for, and the accountant will simply say well he claimed it was for such and such expense so the next person they approach is the one who was issued the receipt and everyone else will play dumb when the axe falls

One reason for a pro domme not to provide receipts or take credit cards is to protect herself and her clients should the authorities ever decide to enter and do a seizure because some holy roller neighbour or disgruntled clieny makes an anonymous call claiming prostitution is occuring there, and oops!-- if a reciept is found with your name on it guess what you can charged as well and or possibly dragged into court as a witness while the court decides if it is indeed provide prostitution services/operating as a bawdy house and of course newspapers love this sort of thing, by the end of the trial the courts could rule it was operating legally but a paper trail can ruin a lot of reputations in the process

And I do know of one in TO that does accept credit cards

Maya2001,

Well, somebody can claim a BDSM facility is operating as a brothel regardless of whether they not issue receipts and/or have a valid license. However, if that is the case, I would much rather visit an establishment that is a registered business and at least has the legal standing to say that they are registered under XYZ name and filed the appropriate paperwork. More importantly, I was initially under the impression that a BDSM facility was legal in the first place so therefore, why would authorities need to follow a paper trail for a perfectly legal business? Obviously, if they are illegal, it is apparent why the don't follow business law as there is no need to.

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RE: Is professional domination legal? - 12/20/2007 9:15:45 PM

dsubmissiveman

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quote:

O CalifChick

Oh pray tell, how exactly is your visit to a Pro Domme a "business related activity"???

Cali

Cali,

When I referred a business name and brief description of services, I should have been more specific. Most of these BDSM facilities would use a generic business name like a Consulting Service and/or Personal Service Business. Therefore, it is not easily discernible that is a BDSM facility and my employer can easily claim as either something marketing or employee development related.

As far as audits go, well, this is where the issue is even more specific with my employer and our corporate structure. Actually, it is one of the reasons why I was attracted to this company. However, I don't want to get too specific on these things, but lets just say, that I have done it before and am looking forward to doing it again.

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Post #: 90

RE: Is professional domination legal? - 12/21/2007 4:21:11 AM

MisPandora

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quote:

ORIGINAL: dsubmissiveman
Like I said, I have only inquired to three establishments, but there are many choices in this city so I should be able to find one that will accomodate me.

Ah yes, accomodate you. That's what being a submissive is about. I forgot. You seem to have forgotten all of the concerns that the domina might have about this entire issue because you're too busy figuring out how to sweep the cost under the carpet.

quote:

Lastly, my employer has in the past expensed non-business related businesses as long as there was a proper paper trail and they could justify it under some type of business related activity (which when you have all the different categories, is not that difficult to do) and your performance is up to par. So until they tell me otherwise, I'm going to do what I have always done.

It's probably a hell of alot more ethical to have your boss pay for your groceries or your mortgage than your kinky sex services, dontcha think?

What strikes me as odd is that in all my years doing this, I've come across a majority of the gentlemen who were concerned for their privacy and therefore respected the privacy and discreet/stealth/covery business practices of the domina. Those guys had thought all of this out and had concerned themselves with protecting themselves, *not* leaving a paper trail on the phone or in their bank/credit card accounts. They valued their home life and their career. I wonder if for one minute, the OP has given consideration to the outcome of a corporate scandal -- I mean they're everywhere these days -- that might ruin the company and your career should that ever get out, say, in a governmental audit or even an internal shakeup.

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RE: Is professional domination legal? - 12/21/2007 4:27:33 AM

MsSonnetMarwood

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Wasn't there a scandal about 2 years ago about a business exec who swindled his company of thousands of dollars, a good portion of which was spent on visits to a prodomme?

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RE: Is professional domination legal? - 12/21/2007 4:51:25 AM

MisPandora

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MsSonnetMarwood

Wasn't there a scandal about 2 years ago about a business exec who swindled his company of thousands of dollars, a good portion of which was spent on visits to a prodomme?

Yes, I mentioned that in an earlier rant. He worked for a large non-profit (Cardiovascular Research Foundation) and there was more than a quarter mil unaccounted for. The pro was Lady Sage -- he paid to fly her to NY to do sessions with him. She was drug through the mud in the media. And she had a legitimate business license and he got receipts. That's part of the way they traced the money back to him! He got 2-6 years in prison for the larceny and embezzlement.

http://www.newsnet5.com/news/5462271/detail.html

Pretty hilarious fundie website talking about the case, sex causing you to steal from your employers: http://thechurchmilitant.blogspot.com/2005/12/sex-is-death-sex-is-theft.html

NEW YORK (Reuters) -- An executive at a heart disease charitable foundation who embezzled close to a quarter of a million dollars over two years to pay a dominatrix to beat him was sentenced Tuesday to two to six years in prison.

Abraham Alexander, an accounts payable executive at the Manhattan Cardiovascular Research Foundation, admitted to stealing $237,162 and spending most of it on services provided by a Columbus, Ohio-based dominatrix called Lady Sage.

Manhattan prosecutors said Alexander, a Singapore-born citizen of India, had forged or altered checks payable to himself, to two credit card companies and to an online-based dominatrix company called Through the Looking Glass.

Alexander, 45, bought airline tickets for trips between New York and Ohio, paid for car rentals in Ohio and charged purchases at stores called Wicked Naughty Accessories and Leather Creations and at Victoria's Secret, prosecutors said.

In jail since his arrest in November, Alexander pleaded guilty to grand larceny in Manhattan Supreme Court in March.

His wife, who is raising their two daughters in their Long Island home, filed for divorce after Alexander was arrested.

Judge Renee White told Alexander that if he came up with more than half of the $237,162 he stole, she would shorten his prison term to one to three years. He had faced up to 15 years in prison had he been convicted at trial.

Lady Sage's Web site features dozens of photographs of the stern, unsmiling dominatrix carrying a whip. She is seen in some pictures wearing a feathered boa over leather or with a metal-studded thong bikini in high-heeled boots.

She lists her services at $250 for the first hour and $200 for each additional hour. An eight-hour session costs $1,500 and 12 hours runs clients $2,000. Lady Sage also commands $1,000 a day in travel expenses if she has to beat a customer on his own turf.

http://thefloridamasochist.blogspot.com/2006/05/knucklehead-of-day-award_04.html

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RE: Is professional domination legal? - 12/21/2007 5:16:43 AM

dsubmissiveman

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MisPandora

quote:

ORIGINAL: dsubmissiveman
Like I said, I have only inquired to three establishments, but there are many choices in this city so I should be able to find one that will accomodate me.

Ah yes, accomodate you. That's what being a submissive is about. I forgot. You seem to have forgotten all of the concerns that the domina might have about this entire issue because you're too busy figuring out how to sweep the cost under the carpet.

quote:

Lastly, my employer has in the past expensed non-business related businesses as long as there was a proper paper trail and they could justify it under some type of business related activity (which when you have all the different categories, is not that difficult to do) and your performance is up to par. So until they tell me otherwise, I'm going to do what I have always done.

It's probably a hell of alot more ethical to have your boss pay for your groceries or your mortgage than your kinky sex services, dontcha think?

What strikes me as odd is that in all my years doing this, I've come across a majority of the gentlemen who were concerned for their privacy and therefore respected the privacy and discreet/stealth/covery business practices of the domina. Those guys had thought all of this out and had concerned themselves with protecting themselves, *not* leaving a paper trail on the phone or in their bank/credit card accounts. They valued their home life and their career. I wonder if for one minute, the OP has given consideration to the outcome of a corporate scandal -- I mean they're everywhere these days -- that might ruin the company and your career should that ever get out, say, in a governmental audit or even an internal shakeup.

MissPandora,

I never claimed to be a lifestyler or a lifestyle submissive/slave. I seek the services of a pro domme so that I can enjoy a session and as a paying client, I will enjoy the session that can best accomodate my needs in quality of service, convenience, cost and any other relevant factors. That is the beauty of paying for a service; the ability to chose amongst various competitors.

A lot of people have mentioned auditing and corporate scandals. Well, without getting too specific I will harp back to the corporate structure of our company. Due to our structure, I am not too concerned about a government audit and we are certainly not a non-profit organization. While these issues of paper trails may be an issue for some professionals, I just don't think it would apply to me.

< Message edited by dsubmissiveman -- 12/21/2007 5:18:09 AM >

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RE: Is professional domination legal? - 12/21/2007 5:18:00 AM

mnottertail

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MisPandora---

Are we to glean from this article that he went to the crowbar hotel and Lady Sage was not charged? The average Joe with a modicum of intellect should be able to extract some salient points of interest and reflection here, that being the case.

Ron(ne)

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RE: Is professional domination legal? - 12/21/2007 5:31:15 AM

MisPandora

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MsSonnetMarwood

Wasn't there a scandal about 2 years ago about a business exec who swindled his company of thousands of dollars, a good portion of which was spent on visits to a prodomme?

Concerning Canada and famous cases:
http://www.cbc.ca/news/story/1998/10/09/bedford981009c.html
This case was known around Toronto as the "Bondage Bungalow" case. She was found guilty and fined something lthen that amounted to around 65,000 USD. They appealed all the way to the Canadian Supreme Court, but I have no way of researching those case outcomes for precedent. Canadian law specifies that one cannot run a "bawdy house" for the purposes of prostitution or "indecent acts." Bedford and her attorneys hoped to convince the Supreme Court that Canada's "Bawdy House Laws" are too vaguely worded. A successful appeal would weaken the laws by forcing police to be more specific when they make charges. It is not currently clear whether acts such as spanking, cross-dressing, and fetish play fall under the category of "indecent acts."

There was another case referenced in one of the Bedford articles related to a case in Montreal.
In 1995, Montreal dominatrix and Fetish Cafe owner Sylvia Wahl was also arrested on bawdy house charges, and her case is also being appealed. Wahl argues that a house of domination is not a "house of prostitution" or "bawdy house" if no genital sexual contact takes place.

The freaky part is that the bawdy house laws don't READ as though anything concerning BDSM could possibly be included in that statute, but there is significant case precedent from these above convictions that those alone would be standalone reason to charge someone else with the same offense. Canada has failed to define prostitute in their statute, therefore, it leaves a court to determine whether they consider the act "sex" or not. That's sneaky.

Interestingly enough, there is conflicting info on the Sex Workers in Canada website. One page says sex work is legal, the other talks about decriminalization of sexual services for pay. http://www.spoc.ca/

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RE: Is professional domination legal? - 12/21/2007 5:34:01 AM

MisPandora

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

MisPandora---

Are we to glean from this article that he went to the crowbar hotel and Lady Sage was not charged? The average Joe with a modicum of intellect should be able to extract some salient points of interest and reflection here, that being the case.

Ron(ne)

That is correct, Ron. Other than Sage really being outed all over the damn world (was all over the news here for weeks, plus her legal name is everywhere), there was no criminal charges brought against her. What happened to her personally as a result, however, is open to speculation. Personally, I'd have been VERY concerned for an IRS investigation!

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RE: Is professional domination legal? - 12/21/2007 5:51:29 AM

mnottertail

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I assume that as well, with that sort of notoriety the IRS would be all over it, something she probably did not factor in the original equation with costing structure for this clown.

The spitball here is from a business point of view:

Let's say that he expensed it all, receipted and whatnot, instead of just scraping it off the cuff...........then at some point a business sits in bad state due to economy or anything else, has to cut corners, gets a thourough audit, whatever.......

appparently, dsubmissiveman is at risk as was this clown.

Then, legal/schmeagle as I first intoned; the ProDomme is at risk in a way that is not and cannot be controlled by her...she files taxes, shovels the sidewalk, puts candy without razorblades in all the kiddies bags for trick or treat, hoses down the entire house with potassium permagranite, autoclaves the carpets, cleans up the dog poop on her front lawn, reads the local newspaper.......and because of this fucking clowns patently illegal dodge.......she is wound up with lawyers and government and all kinda shit, missing her nail salon appointments......

OK,
revision to bill for services rendered:

Ron(ne)

Salad Tossing Instruction (2 hrs)                              500.00
Documentation fee                                                     50.00
Attorney Defense Fund *                                     50000.00

*this amount will be held in escrow, until such time as is proven that YOU did nothing illegal or untoward in this transaction. I will hold this amount for a eight year minimum, to avoid any costs that fall to me that may be incurred by your illegal actions.

Wonder where the accounting department is gonna put that under? Same place as frequent flier miles? Many companies claim those, and in fact are pretty cheap and possesive of every dime that could possibly accrue to them, the fact that dsubmissive man 'CLAIMS' to be some unique case is not evidence of that fact, and certainly nothing overwhelming with the clamour of cash payers that one needs to spend 129.99 for business plan software on.

As your board of directors, I would advise that this 'recieptable' market is too small to command your attention.

Sincerely,
Ron(ne)....advisor to the stars

< Message edited by mnottertail -- 12/21/2007 6:12:05 AM >

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RE: Is professional domination legal? - 12/21/2007 7:24:02 AM

dsubmissiveman

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For any who are still interested:- I just made arrangement with a pro domme who is able and willing to provide a receipt. I asked about the details of the receipt and I should have no problem expensing it. Actually, it is probably the first thing I'll do Monday morning.

Thanks for the input.

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RE: Is professional domination legal? - 12/21/2007 8:09:49 AM

MisPandora

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From: Philadelphia, PA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail
Then, legal/schmeagle as I first intoned; the ProDomme is at risk in a way that is not and cannot be controlled by her...she files taxes, shovels the sidewalk, puts candy without razorblades in all the kiddies bags for trick or treat, hoses down the entire house with potassium permagranite, autoclaves the carpets, cleans up the dog poop on her front lawn, reads the local newspaper.......and because of this fucking clowns patently illegal dodge.......she is wound up with lawyers and government and all kinda shit, missing her nail salon appointments......

*spits coffee out on the laptop*
Damnit Ron!!! LOL

It's as if pro doms don't have enough BS to deal with here on the boards, as well as the risks involved with actually running that sort of business, they have to be subjected to this sort of unforseeable nonsense.

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