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an attempt at honsety - 8/20/2005 12:23:58 AM   
thelight


Posts: 82
Joined: 7/31/2005
Status: offline 		i understand that this thread does not belong to me. it becomes community property the moment i begin it. i have no right to to tell anyone else what they may or may not post. but i ask, please refrain from flaming. i want this thread to be a place where people can express themselves honestly, and without fear of criticism. actually, i personaly don't much mind being flamed, so go ahead and flame me if you must, but please don't flame anyone else.

i have a lot on my mind, and i'm not sure were to begin. i'm sitting in te dark, naked. i'm in a dark mood. not a bad mood, but a dark one.

recently, there have been several threads discussing various issues relating to honesty. i don't consider myself an honest person, but i want to become one. this post is an attempt to share a side of myself that i don't often share with others.

so much of life is about preparing a face to meet the faces that you meet. sometimes, i get so used to wearing a face that i forget what i look like underneath it all. sometimes, you put on face so well that it merges with your natural face.

i'm thinking about hatred. i'm not feeling hatred toward anyone or anything. i'm simply contemplating hatred as something that exists in the world.

why do we hate? is it something that can be overcome? is it possible to live a hate-free existence? woud one want to? or are there some things that should be hated?

we often talk of overcoming our fears, but we rarely discuss overcoming our hatred. in fact, we rarely discuss our hatred at all. we just ventilate it.

is it ever right to say one should or should not feel a certain way?

i'm thinking the disparity between my ideal self and my actual self. how much of what i say and do is me being the person i really am, and how much of it is me trying to be the person i think i am "supposed" to be.

i'm thinking about my need to feel superior to others. i remember when i was a student, how good it felt when a teacher praised me in front of my classmates. how superior i felt. but i know that whatever answer i gave to whatever question the teacher asked didn't make me a lick superior to any of my classmates. nothing i do will ever make me any better than anyone else. it just isn't possible to be "better" than someone else. i may be better at doing something than someone else. i may be more honest or ethical or moral than someone else, i may be smarter than someone else, but none of this will ever make me the slightest bit better than that person. but this knowledge does not diminish my need to feel superior.

i'm thinking about how i love to use uncommon words. is it just to help me express myself better, to make my speech more colorful, or is it a form of preening (see)?

i'm thinking about how lucky i am to have someone as tolerant as my wife. i have put that woman throuh so much, and yet she remains by my side. one time i broke the law (misdemeanor), and she told the police that she did it, to keep me from getting in trouble. and yet i still desire to sleep with other women, even though i know how much it would upset her. i don't just desire it, i know that, under the right circumstances, i would do it. i feel guilty about it, but the guilt doesn't quell the desire. we made amazing love tonight. she is a wonderful lover, but still, i want more. it feels like desire and guilt are warring within me. the age old image of the devil on one shoulder and the angel on the other, except they aren't just taking trash to one another, they're fighting with knives, and each time one of them cuts the other, i feel it; the angel and the demon are both me.

i don't aways feel this way. sometimes i can be downright cheerul.

< Message edited by thelight -- 8/20/2005 5:58:31 AM >

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RE: an attempt at honsety - 8/20/2005 1:16:46 AM   
Shayna


Posts: 205
Joined: 1/16/2005
Status: offline 		*battens down the hatches*

There are many directions to go with the musings you raise, but what stands out to me is this: you want to become more honest - start with yourself. Ponder these questions: what are you seeking in your life right now? what do you want from marriage? What is it you don't think you're getting? What do you think you WILL get from women other than your wife?


Then bring her into the conversation. Honesty with yourself first; then honesty with your wife. You can't go around or over the "problem" - you need to face it head on.


By the way, what is so frightening about being honestly the "real" you?



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RE: an attempt at honsety - 8/20/2005 2:01:01 AM   
slavedesires


Posts: 669
Joined: 3/2/2004
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quote:


i'm thinking the disparity between my ideal self and my actual self. how much of what i say and do is me being the person i realy am, and how much of it is me being the person i think i am "supposed" to be.


i received email today that cause this same issue inside of me. i really dont mind sharing my thoughts, openly and honestly on public forums, after all only the people who know me in person know the real me...they are only my opinions. Never meant to harm or humiiliate or flame or waht ever...jsut my fucking views.
Sometimes our opinions change. Are my opinions one given day my ideal or my actual self?
i pretty much know who i am. i have been through alot. But i suppose evryone knows this about themselves.

Honesty. Tough thing. We all want honesty and yet we dont see so much of it here...not in profiles, not in return email, not in the actual or ideal self.......when i was honest i was accused of some really evil things. so why should i be honest if within that honesty, my truth at that time, some one wants to assume and not clarify and accuses me of evil and vile things...... i cried, got angry and then just said to hell with it....yes dark places are good at times....matches the darkness within.

its always darkest before the dawn.

just musing as well....for we all attempt to be honest within ourselves and are judged harshly when at times we do speak.

~~shy

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....the greatest gift.....vulnerability

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RE: an attempt at honsety - 8/20/2005 2:05:05 AM   
slavedesires


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quote:

By the way, what is so frightening about being honestly the "real" you?


In being honest one faces the fears and the judgments of others.
In being honest one faces themselves in the mirror.
In being honest one must choose their right and their wrong.
In being honest one is opened like a bleeding wound and no bandaid will suffice.

~~shy

_____________________________

i speak only my personal opinion, sometimes O/ours.

"i am the keeper of fragile things and i have kept what is indisolvable."
....the greatest gift.....vulnerability

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RE: an attempt at honsety - 8/20/2005 4:06:43 AM   
thelight


Posts: 82
Joined: 7/31/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Shayna

Ponder these questions: what are you seeking in your life right now?



i want to get drunk, i want a better job, i want to get so good at poker that i can play it for a living, i want more kink, i want to get in shape, i want to be rich, i want to say screw work and go travel the world, i want to write a novel, i want to direct a good porn flick (because there are so few of them), i want to run around naked and have sex with whomever suits my fancy, i want to be wanted by whomever i want, i want to be popular, i want to be sexy, i want a cheeseburger and a cigarette afterwards, i want to quit smoking, i want to own my own business, i want the thrill of seducing a new lover, i want a puppy, i want to be a good person (even though i don't believe in good and evil, nor do i want to), i want to take all the homeless people sleeping in front of the building where i work and let them crash at my place, i want to believe that life isn't b.s., i want to love everybody, i want everybody to love me, i want to be kind, i want to make people feel good about themselves, i want to go back to school and get a graduate degree in philosophy, i want to be less superficial, i want to see i want to be less judgmental, and more accepting, of others, i want to learn a second language, i want to learn to play a musical instrument, i want to be less selfish...

quote:

what do you want from marriage?


Someone who: stimulates my mind; motivates me to do more with my life; likes the same things i like; is kinky for herself (doesn't just do it to please me); has ambition and motivation; is bi (so we can seduce other women together); isn't afraid that if she dresses sexy, other people will think she looks slutty; likes to look slutty; is creative and imaginative; is a non-conformist; likes to party; is kind; is loving; is intelligent; accepts my faults and isn't too critical of me; shares my views on life; makes me laugh; is good in bed; will do anything for me; turns me on.

quote:

What is it you don't think you're getting?


the first 11 things on the list (my wife is kind and everything after that).

quote:

What do you think you WILL get from women other than your wife?


A different combination of the things i listed above. and also, the thrill of newness, of getting to know someone.

quote:

Then bring her into the conversation. Honesty with yourself first; then honesty with your wife.


we've talked and talked about these things. the problem isn't with what she does. she'll do whatever i ask her to. the problem is with how she feels and thinks about things. with who she is. these aren't things she can change.

quote:

By the way, what is so frightening about being honestly the "real" you?


nothing. its just that the real me is constantly changing, depending upon the circumstances i'm in. the real me around my wife will be different from the real me when i'm around my brother, which will be different from the real me when i'm at work. i just want some consistancy.







< Message edited by thelight -- 8/20/2005 4:15:54 AM >

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RE: an attempt at honsety - 8/20/2005 4:21:42 AM   
IronBear


Posts: 9008
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
Status: offline 		I'm thinking that you aee being honest to ask yourself these questions. I also believe that each of the facits you showed us about you are honest and part of you, ergo whilst it is good and necessary to do such a reality check at times, dont make the mistake of beating yourself up (and I'm not indicating that you are) because you question some things that give you pleasure, like the use of uncommon words. The reality is that they give you pleasure and if your vocabulary is large enough to house such words then use them. It would in fact be a crime and disrespectful to others to limit your use of words to blend in with the herd.





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Iron Bear

Master of Bruin Cottage

http://www.bruincottage.org

Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.

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RE: an attempt at honsety - 8/20/2005 5:06:33 AM   
Quivver


Posts: 1953
Joined: 11/27/2004
Status: offline 		quote: "so much of life is about preparing a face to meet the faces that you meet. sometimes, i get so used to wearing a face, i sometimes forget what i look like underneath it all. sometimes, you put on face so well that it merges your natural face"

This statement of yours bothers me. Why prepare something that isnt you? Why wear something that isnt a custom fit. What's *wrong* with the one you have? Why shapeshift to be what others want you to be? I wonder if you like *you*?

Years ago, (hell I was a teenager) my Mother gave me a newpaper clipping of a poem.
I rolled my eyes and stuffed it in my wallet. Then a few years later when life's trials began
to show up I read it again in a different light. I'm gonna share, even if it is kinda sappy.
Maybe you'll get something out of it.

When you get what you want in your struggle for self,
And the world makes you long for a day,
Just go to the mirror and look at yourself,
And see what THAT man has to say.
For if it is not your father or mother or wife
Whose judgment upon you must pass.
The fellow whose verdict counts most in your life
Is the one staring back in the glass.
Some people might think you are a
straight shootin' chum and
call you a wonderful guy,
But the man in the glass says you're only a bum,
If you can't look him straight in the eye.
He's the fellow to please, never mind all the rest,
For he's with you dear up to the end. And
you have passed your most dangerous, difficult test
If the guy in the glass is your friend
You may fool the whole world down the pathway of
years, and get pats on the back as you pass.
But your final reward will be heartaches and tears
If you have cheated the man in the glass.

[code][/code]Q


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RE: an attempt at honsety - 8/20/2005 5:14:47 AM   
ShiftedJewel


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quote:

nothing. its just that the real me is constantly changing, depending upon the circumstances i'm in. the real me around my wife will be different from the real me when i'm around my brother, which will be different from the real me when i'm at work. i just want some consistancy.


Change is constant and not a bad thing. I have the social "me", the private "me", the "me" that I take to family gatherings and the "me" that attends the local munch.. but they are all me. We all have complex personalities, I believe that's what makes us so interesting.

My question is this... how is it that you are being dishonest? And to whom? Everyone is a little different at work then they are at home, everyone acts a little different around a sibling then they do in other environments... it's a comfort level. I never experienced the same comfort level at work that I did with my sister therefore I was more guarded and put on a more professional "face"... but I was still being the real me. It's all about being comforable in your own skin. I'm honest for two reasons.... first and foremost, because I respect myself, it has nothing to do with respect for others... I'm the only one that has to look me in the eye every time I pass a mirror, and secondly.... because I'm a very busy person with way to much on my plate as it is and I don't have the time, desire or the energy to try to remember what was truth and what was a lie.

Jewel

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RE: an attempt at honsety - 8/20/2005 5:26:18 AM   
IronBear


Posts: 9008
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
Status: offline
quote:

This statement of yours bothers me. Why prepare something that isnt you? Why wear something that isnt a custom fit. What's *wrong* with the one you have? Why shapeshift to be what others want you to be? I wonder if you like *you*?


Have you NEVER psyched yourself up or pause for a moment before an important meeting or date? We, mostly all anyway, put on our “Best face” for the occasion prior to facing the “Occasion”. Much of life is a role play where we, at work, have our work face on and role play our work facit. When we are home with family we have our family face on, if we have one, and in the guise of being a responsible family member, deal with this. It is when we are alone that we drop our guards and remove all the grease paint and then are naked, bared to the soul and then the “real you” emerges. All the other “faces” are a real part of us which we expose at appropriate times. Its just that sometimes you need to be the inner person so that to can breath and grow.

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Iron Bear

Master of Bruin Cottage

http://www.bruincottage.org

Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.

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RE: an attempt at honsety - 8/20/2005 5:37:56 AM   
Quivver


Posts: 1953
Joined: 11/27/2004
Status: offline 		Yes IronBear all those faces are *us*, but a simple variation of that naked one. I took my statement to TheLight also from this line in his first post: "i sometimes forget what i look like underneath it all. sometimes, you put on face so well that it merges your natural face." It appears to me he's forgotten where he put that naked face.

Q


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RE: an attempt at honsety - 8/20/2005 5:53:17 AM   
IronBear


Posts: 9008
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
Status: offline 		Sheesh Quivver, I guess there is one whole heap of people who do that from time to time. Took me years to relearn who I was...

_____________________________

Iron Bear

Master of Bruin Cottage

http://www.bruincottage.org

Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.

(in reply to Quivver)
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RE: an attempt at honsety - 8/20/2005 5:54:02 AM   
thelight


Posts: 82
Joined: 7/31/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Quivver

quote: "so much of life is about preparing a face to meet the faces that you meet. sometimes, i get so used to wearing a face, i sometimes forget what i look like underneath it all. sometimes, you put on face so well that it merges your natural face"

This statement of yours bothers me. Why prepare something that isnt you? Why wear something that isnt a custom fit. What's *wrong* with the one you have? Why shapeshift to be what others want you to be? I wonder if you like *you*?


thanks for the poem.

sometimes i like myself, and sometimes i don't.

as for the preparing a face to meet the faces that you meet part, i am comvinced that it just isn't feasible to be completely honest with everyone all the time.

for example, i know my boss does not approve of drug use. i, on the other hand, like to smoke pot. if my boss is going off on the evils of drugs, and how drug dealers deserve the death penalty, i am not going to say "well, i smoke pot and i don't see anything wrong with it." i'm just going to stay out of the conversation, no matter how badly i want to speak my mind, because it's not worth losing my job just so i can "be myself."

or suppose my butt itches. should i be like "o.k., i'm just gonna scratch my ass right here in front of everybody, because it itches, it's nothing to be ashamed of, and anyone who forms a negative opinion of me just because i scratch my butt is superficial and shallow," or do i do it in the privacy of the bathroom, to keep everyone from thinking i'm totally gross?

or, if i went on a job interview, and the interviewer asked me what led me to apply for that position with their company, and i said, "look, i really hate having to work, but i need to work somewhere or i'll be out on the street. i chose this position because i felt i was qualified and the money was right, although i have no particular interest in the job itself. i chose your company because every company in this sector is pretty much the same, so i really don't care which company i work for," do you think i would get that job? or might i be better off comming up with some bs answer, and trying to seem enthusiastic, even though i don't feel that way?

or if i go to a bar, and all i want is to get laid, and i don't care by whom. so i go up to a woman and say "i'm horney as hell, how about you," what are my chances of getting laid? I assure you, i would do a lot better if i played the game, struck up a conversation about something other than sex, which i really had no desire to discuss, made her feel like i wanted to be with her, and not just whomever, and gradually eased into the topic of going home together.

or if my wife calls and asks me if i mind if she meets her girlfriends for a drink after work. if i say i mind, she won't go. truthfully, i don't want her to meet her girlfriends, i want her home with me. but, suppose the last time she asked, i told her to come home. if i tell her to come home this time as well, she will feel like i am not letting her have a social life, and will resent me. so i say "no, honey, i don't mind. go out and have fun."

sometimes matters of tact, ettiquette, and decorum conflict with who i am. i supress my true self, in order to influence how others perceive me. we all do this. it is necessary in order to survive in society. the problem is, as we do this, the line between who we are and how we are trying to appear becomes blurred.




< Message edited by thelight -- 8/20/2005 6:09:27 AM >

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RE: an attempt at honsety - 8/20/2005 6:13:49 AM   
FTopinMichigan


Posts: 571
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quote:

ORIGINAL: thelight

i'm thinking about my need to feel superior to others. i remember when i was a student, how good it felt when a teacher praised me in front of my classmates. how superior i felt. but i know that whatever answer i gave to whatever question the teacher asked didn't make me a lick superior to any of my classmates. nothing i do will ever make me any better than anyone else. it just isn't possible to be "better" than someone else. i may be better at doing something than someone else. i may be more honest or ethical or moral than someone else, i may be smarter than someone else, but none of this will ever make me the slightest bit better than that person. but this knowledge does not diminish my need to feel superior.



I would say, based on the sentiments expressed in the above quoted paragraph, that you might began to feel better yourself, if you didn't judge yourself by others.

K

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RE: an attempt at honsety - 8/20/2005 6:20:34 AM   
FTopinMichigan


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ShiftedJewel

Change is constant and not a bad thing. I have the social "me", the private "me", the "me" that I take to family gatherings and the "me" that attends the local munch.. but they are all me. We all have complex personalities, I believe that's what makes us so interesting.




I would find it quite confusing to have so many of me. <g>

I don't put on other personas when in different social settings, or at work, or with friends. What you see, is what you get, and I feel that it's not only a better way to be with others...it's much better for me too.

No offense meant to you, Jewel, as I don't know you personally, but I tend to beware of those that shift personality, to fit a situation. I never know which one I'd be meeting with, and if one was a trusted friend, or one of the everchanging personas.

K

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RE: an attempt at honsety - 8/20/2005 6:45:50 AM   
MsIncognito


Posts: 742
Joined: 5/24/2005
Status: offline 		I think there is a difference between the "me's" that jewel mentiones and what you're refering to, FTIM. I'm always me, but I behave/dress/present different for different situations. My behaviour is situation apppropriate, but that doesn't make me any less myself. When I go to church (ok, it's been a while, but it happens on occassion...like a wedding or baptism) I dress and behave one way. When I go to a play party I dress and behave in another way. That doesn't make me a phoney with ever changing personalities, it makes me someone who knows themselves and who knows that is appropriate in different situations.

I think the questions the light needs to ask himself are "Who am I?" and "What am I afraid of?" I've found that people who spend a significant amount of time trying to be what they think others want usually have a poor self image and are afraid others won't like who they are so they try to fake it. I've often given the advice "Just be yourself" but that's nearly impossible to do when you don't have a clue who you are. Until you know yourself, accept yourself (and that means knowing your strengths and weaknesses and accepting the same) you'll never find inner peace. Inner peace comes not from being perfect, not from being who you think others expect you to be but from knowing, accepting and being yourself.


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RE: an attempt at honsety - 8/20/2005 7:02:06 AM   
ScooterTrash


Posts: 1407
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From: Indiana
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quote:

No offense meant to you, Jewel, as I don't know you personally, but I tend to beware of those that shift personality, to fit a situation. I never know which one I'd be meeting with, and if one was a trusted friend, or one of the everchanging personas.
Knowing Jewel as I do, I have to believe you simply didn't understand her point. We ALL (and I do mean all) adjust or acclimate to our surroundings. It doesn't mean our personality necessarily changes, but we regulate our projected self to fit the occasion. It has to be that way as a survival tactic. If you are around a group of children, you have to behave in a more "nilla" fashion than when at a munch or play party. I deal with corporate Presidents and CEOs in my work and I am compelled to adjust from a Dominant, kinky, biker...to a more accepted corporate style. It's a fact of life. Is this being honest...certainly, these are all me, I simply project myself in a different light. Situations alter cases however, as I do actually conduct business with Harley Davidson Corporation and my behavior is somewhat different with them than when dealing with Delphi or Remy. Now if one of these corporate heads slip and say something about bondage or floggers, well then that's my cue that I can relax a bit...lol. We attend bike rallys and poker runs, at those we have very few restrictions, but when attending the ballet, I somehow believe we would raise more than eyebrows if we kept the same garb and attitude. WE all have that juggling act to perform, but as long as we simply use it as a modifier, not as our true essence, it is still being honest and upfront. If this makes me scary or appearing as a changling, I am concerned, as I do not see how anyone could possibly be successful and not possess and utilize these skills.

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RE: an attempt at honsety - 8/20/2005 7:14:16 AM   
TNstepsout


Posts: 1558
Joined: 8/3/2005
Status: offline 		Honesty doesn't mean being brutally honest with others, even when it hurts their feelings. No one does that. We all fudge when it comes to playing some games, because we have to. The job interview is a perfect example. Some people like to play this game, by saying hurtful things to others and then hiding behind the explanation that they were just "being honest". They are blunt and truthful etc... No, they are just asses.

Honesty means being brutally truthful with YOURSELF and being willing to share that. It's easier to put on a mask because then if you are rejected it's not really you that's rejected, but if you put your real honest (naked vulnerable) self out there and you are rejected OUCH! But on the flip side, if you are loved, adored, cherished, worshipped, and it's all a front??? What have you really gained? You have to keep playing that game to get what you need and you feel like a phony and always fear that if the person knew the real you, they would reject you.

Intimacy and Vulnerability go hand in hand. You can't truly be intimate with someone unless you are vulnerable. If you have not been honest with who you really are then you cannot ever be really intimate because you are always guarding something. Afraid they will unmask you and reject you.

Why do you feel the need to show the world a mask? Why do you need to mirror back to them what they want to see, instead of showing yourself? What happens if they REALLY see you? Are you afraid there is nothing there? Something disgusting? Boring? Dead? Stupid? Worthless?

You are depressed and in a dark mood because you are at an impass. Keep going the way you have been or take a really big risk and show your real self to the world.

As far as your marriage goes, only you know how much of your real self you have shown to your wife. If she's in love with one of your "masks" then you may fear she'll reject you if she knows who you really are, so you share those other parts with other people. If she really does know you, and loves you, warts and all, then you may resent and fear the vulnerability you feel with her.

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RE: an attempt at honsety - 8/20/2005 7:27:13 AM   
LadyJulieAnn


Posts: 979
Joined: 6/29/2005
Status: offline 		If you know all of these things about yourself, and are not happy, what do you plan to do to change things? On the other hand, if you know these things about yourself and accept them, continue being yourself and living life the way you do. Whatever comes of your actions or inactions, if you accept that you are the way you are, then you should accept the situations created by the person you are.

Be well,
Julie

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RE: an attempt at honsety - 8/20/2005 8:06:14 AM   
pinkpleasures


Posts: 1114
Status: offline
quote:

Years ago, (hell I was a teenager) my Mother gave me a newpaper clipping of a poem.
I rolled my eyes and stuffed it in my wallet. Then a few years later when life's trials began
to show up I read it again in a different light. I'm gonna share, even if it is kinda sappy.
Maybe you'll get something out of it.

Quivver


The poem in your post is so pefect i am sending it to my kid. You are one hell of a woman.

pinkpleasures

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(in reply to Quivver)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: an attempt at honsety - 8/20/2005 11:27:30 AM   
junecleaver


Posts: 1145
Joined: 4/6/2005
Status: offline 		I don't hate anything.

From my personal experiences, people have that desire to fill superior because they are insecure. They need that leg up on people, because they're afraid to play on level ground.

If you know what's right....and it seems like you do as far as your marriage goes...then do it.

_____________________________


"No one will ever win the battle of the sexes; there's too much fraternizing with the enemy. "
--Henry A. Kissinger

(in reply to pinkpleasures)
Profile   Post #: 20
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