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RE: Self-Mastery - 12/30/2007 4:21:11 AM   
NorthernGent


Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

Tearing away and developing your own morals, based upon what you feel is best for you, is also extremely difficult, but something I feel is necessary

the difference between following your own path and accepting the consequences,



Speaking of fear and consequence, parting company with old friends is uppermost in my mind.

'Difficult to know what's "your own path" when you've had 30 years of information flooding your brain from all angles. Using Nietzsche as an example, as we've dicussed him in the past: was he following his own path, or was his path a result of his background? i.e. his Father dying when he was young, German politics and culture at that time, his illness, commercialisation - it could be argued that all of these events/situations conspired to direct him towards an introspective, isolated life. I wouldn't pretend to have anywhere near the answers; it will take a wise man indeed to unravel that one.

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to OrionTheWolf)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: Self-Mastery - 12/30/2007 4:25:45 AM   
NorthernGent


Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: lusciouslips19


quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

quote:

ORIGINAL: charmdpetKeira


In that case, I too am self- mastered. lol
 
k


I take great satisfaction in knowing that this thread, aimed at sharing a few ideas, has steered a few lads and lasses towards understanding their wanking potential.

The BBC wouldn't air this debauchery.


I Master myself......regularly.


Does you BBC know? Maybe you can change their collective mind!

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to lusciouslips19)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: Self-Mastery - 12/30/2007 4:28:32 AM   
NorthernGent


Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

Would you shy away from perfection if it were within your reach?



I suppose it depends what you have in mind with regard to perfection?

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to Aswad)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: Self-Mastery - 12/30/2007 4:30:50 AM   
TreasureKY


Posts: 3032
Joined: 4/10/2007
From: Kentucky
Status: offline 		In a thread earlier this week, I wrote the following on self-mastery:

"To me, it (self-mastery) encompasses most of what has been mentioned above... being self-aware and having clear goals in life, but the action and results are what really count.  A person can be self-aware and know where they want to be in life, yet if they lack the skills, methods and self-discipline to actively address issues and make consistent and steady progress toward achieving those goals, then they still haven't begun to master his or herself.

I've known people who are very self-aware, but they weren't interested in correcting any flaws or they lacked the self-discipline to do so. 

Some people are very self-disciplined and have great control over themselves, but because they don't understand who they are and why they do what they do, they can't pinpoint problems. 

There are also people who have tremendous vision... they can tell you in great detail how they want their lives to be, but in reality they have neither the awareness or discipline to get there. 

I believe self-mastery is a combination of self-awareness, motivation and self-control."

To answer your questions...

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

... Is discipline the hallmark of self-mastery?


If one takes "discipline" to mean the same as "self-control" then no, not a hallmark, but more a cornerstone.  I believe it takes a balance of the three qualities I mention above to acheive self-mastery.

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

Does this centrally imposed doctrine concerned with discipline, order and restraint necessarily equate to self-mastery?


Again, no.    Without self-awareness and motivation, all you have is someone who is ordered, restrained and disciplined.

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

Are there grounds to suggest that self-expression, romanticism and excess are more in tune with self-mastery?


I would consider these qualities to be more a style or flavoring... personal attributes that help define the individual.

(in reply to NorthernGent)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: Self-Mastery - 12/30/2007 4:36:06 AM   
NorthernGent


Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: wandersalone

eg. giving up a secure job to pursue a dream. 


 
'Couldn't agree more: the means to an end, rather than the end in its own right.

quote:

ORIGINAL: wandersalone

Have a safe and joyful 2008 everyone.



Same to you, Wanders - 'best of health and prosperity for the New Year and beyond

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to wandersalone)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: Self-Mastery - 12/30/2007 4:46:44 AM   
NorthernGent


Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TreasureKY

I believe self-mastery is a combination of self-awareness, motivation and self-control."




Treasure/Firmhand, an all encompassing response, and one I agree with. Self-awareness appears to be the trickier of the three, as a consequence of years of information absorbed from all angles. 

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to TreasureKY)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: Self-Mastery - 12/30/2007 5:57:43 AM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

quote:

ORIGINAL: charmdpetKeira

I am working on a theory that dispels ethics as I once thought of them; in terms of right/wrong, good/bad. I find your preceding post to Bull to be inspirational, as I had already discerned the only way to fight fear is to stop being afraid. Perhaps soon, I will feel confident enough to share.
 


I imagine this is a process common to most people - it certainly was/is to me - pride comes before a fall. Of course, there are some probable truths out there; for example, murder isn't exactly neighbourly, don't lose sight of that!

In terms of fear, well, people crave security, but are so fearful that it undermines their security. There are ways 'round this: believe what you see, keep shackles like the bank to an absolute bare minimum, live according to your means, the world is the same for those of us fortunate enough to be born to decent parents in a prosperous nation - some see the bad, others see the good - optimism/pessimism tells the story of personal approach, rather than the world, perhaps

People aren't gods; you try and fail, so what, get back on the horse and have another go. Guilt is a bind.

quote:

ORIGINAL: charmdpetKeira

I am thinking along the lines of (perceived) experiences + environmental conditioning + personality / ability to reason = individual.
 


Agreed, I can think of a few enlightened thinkers who support your point of view: Machiavelli, Sartre, Nietzsche, Locke, Hobbes, Spinoza - all influenced by the circumstances of the day and their personal experiences. I tend to think that we're very easily manipulated; fashion is a good example, walk in a club and they all look the same: there's one person who's been cloned a 1000 times. I suppose part of the trick is not to ride the wave of fad pursuits.

Regardless of all else, you've got to be in it to win it. Good luck!


Kudos to you NG for starting such an interesting thread.

CharmdpetKeira, i found your comment about fear very interesting, as its something i have overcome in recent years.

Since a bad childhood experienced i have had a fear of dentists. I didnt go for ages and yet knew i had a few bits need doing. Eventually i decided i just had to go, as expected it took several visits to put things right. i am glad to say that since then i have only needed a check and clean up over the past 4 or 5 years. My point is i spent ages worrying about this, all for nothing. The worry caused me to have more fear than the actual treatments did.

Flying was something else that i had always avoided. Yet i met some people in Texas via the net that i wanted to go visit. I gritted my teeth and booked a flight ( Ok i cheated and took a small valium ) But again i realised me fear of flying had held back my joy of travel. Flying now holds no fears, yes i am still nervous but not fearful. I found breaking down fears into worst case scenarios against possible benefits really helps.

Your other points about good/bad right and wrong are also interesting. We all see stealing as wrong, yet stealing food to survive is just inherent human nature. Sometimes we just do what needs to be done to get by. To a degree i feel that the same inherent nature, especially the herd instinct, stops people truly taking their own path. We all want to fit in, so we normally act as everyone else does.

NG made the point about fashion earlier, its not so much we all want to look the same, more that we dont want to look different, if that makes sense. Once one person tries a new fashion, then its easier to make the choice to try it ourself. People have a desire to conform to the enviroment they are in. Probably due to a fear if ridicule from those around us.

Human nature in my opinion, is partly learned and partly hard wired. Self Mastery to me, is knowing myself, knowing my limits and trying to push them that bit further. Yet also knowing when to quit and maybe try another day. Its also about sticking to what i think is right and refusing to go along with things i think are wrong, just to be part of the crowd.

(in reply to NorthernGent)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: Self-Mastery - 12/30/2007 6:09:41 AM   
NorthernGent


Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Since a bad childhood experienced i have had a fear of dentists. I didnt go for ages and yet knew i had a few bits need doing. Eventually i decided i just had to go, as expected it took several visits to put things right. i am glad to say that since then i have only needed a check and clean up over the past 4 or 5 years. My point is i spent ages worrying about this, all for nothing. The worry caused me to have more fear than the actual treatments did.



It helps to maintain perspective; providing you have your health, physical and mental, then you have the foundations to maixmise your potential/life.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

We all want to fit in



We're pack animals, of course, but there's always the option of the pack who share your personal ethics.

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to Politesub53)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: Self-Mastery - 12/30/2007 8:46:24 AM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7803
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline 		Of course all of those events directed him towards his path, but I do not believe they forced him to that path. Life creates who we are, we cannot be who we are in a vacuum. There will always be outside influences, but what I refer to as societal teachings, are those things that are deemed proper and good graces. If you examine your morals, and actively decide they do not need to be changed, you have still made an active choice.

Changing friends can be very difficult, and something I did about 15 and then 8 years ago. During my life, I have only ever found one person that was able to stay close to me, during my personal growth.

Maybe I should isolate myself and write a book......Wait.....I am already doing that ;).

Live well


quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

Tearing away and developing your own morals, based upon what you feel is best for you, is also extremely difficult, but something I feel is necessary

the difference between following your own path and accepting the consequences,



Speaking of fear and consequence, parting company with old friends is uppermost in my mind.

'Difficult to know what's "your own path" when you've had 30 years of information flooding your brain from all angles. Using Nietzsche as an example, as we've dicussed him in the past: was he following his own path, or was his path a result of his background? i.e. his Father dying when he was young, German politics and culture at that time, his illness, commercialisation - it could be argued that all of these events/situations conspired to direct him towards an introspective, isolated life. I wouldn't pretend to have anywhere near the answers; it will take a wise man indeed to unravel that one.


_____________________________

When speaking of slaves people always tend to ignore this definition "One who is abjectly subservient to a specified person or influence."

(in reply to NorthernGent)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: Self-Mastery - 12/30/2007 10:57:49 AM   
TreasureKY


Posts: 3032
Joined: 4/10/2007
From: Kentucky
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

Treasure/Firmhand, an all encompassing response, and one I agree with.


lol... Just treasure, this time.  Contrary to popular belief, we aren't one and the same... though we do share computers some.  We probably ought to merge into one dom/sub profile, but I hate to perpetuate the rumors that we are the same person. 

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

Self-awareness appears to be the trickier of the three, as a consequence of years of information absorbed from all angles.


I agree that self-awareness seems to be the hardest to achieve.  Personally, I think it's because to be self-aware, you have to be willing to face some things about yourself that may not be so pleasant... and mature enough to handle it.

(in reply to NorthernGent)
Profile   Post #: 50
RE: Self-Mastery - 12/30/2007 9:00:57 PM   
charmdpetKeira


Posts: 916
Joined: 6/2/2007
Status: offline 		NG
quote:

I imagine this is a process common to most people - it certainly was/is to me - pride comes before a fall. Of course, there are some probable truths out there; for example, murder isn't exactly neighbourly, don't lose sight of that!

True that! I will keep these wise words in mind. :)
quote:

In terms of fear, well, people crave security, but are so fearful that it undermines their security.

Something important about not being afraid I forgot to mention, you first have to accurately identify what it is you are afraid of.
quote:

There are ways 'round this: believe what you see, keep shackles like the bank to an absolute bare minimum, live according to your means, the world is the same for those of us fortunate enough to be born to decent parents in a prosperous nation - some see the bad, others see the good - optimism/pessimism tells the story of personal approach, rather than the world, perhaps

Also, in choosing one or the other, realism tends to be excluded.
Is it contradictory for an idealist to advocate realism?
quote:

People aren't gods; you try and fail, so what, get back on the horse and have another go. Guilt is a bind.

Guilt, it comes from (bruised) ego, doesn’t it; sometimes called for, sometimes not, sometimes overextended?
quote:

Agreed, I can think of a few enlightened thinkers who support your point of view: Machiavelli, Sartre, Nietzsche, Locke, Hobbes, Spinoza - all influenced by the circumstances of the day and their personal experiences.

Looks the beginings of more research. It will be interesting to get an idea of their thoughts; I have done limited reading on the topic thus far, but am finding I do not completely agree with what was being said in what I did read.
quote:

I tend to think that we're very easily manipulated;

I agree, thankfully, knowing is half the battle.
quote:

fashion is a good example, walk in a club and they all look the same: there's one person who's been cloned a 1000 times. I suppose part of the trick is not to ride the wave of fad pursuits.

It is definitely hard to soar as an individual when one has anchored themselves to conformity.
quote:


Regardless of all else, you've got to be in it to win it. Good luck!

*smiles* Thank you, again.
k

_____________________________

Life is tough, that does not mean it isn't fair.

There is no wrong choice, only consequence.

(in reply to NorthernGent)
Profile   Post #: 51
RE: Self-Mastery - 12/31/2007 5:54:15 AM   
charmdpetKeira


Posts: 916
Joined: 6/2/2007
Status: offline 		Politesub,

quote:

CharmdpetKeira, i found your comment about fear very interesting, as its something i have overcome in recent years.

Since a bad childhood experienced i have had a fear of dentists. I didnt go for ages and yet knew i had a few bits need doing. Eventually i decided i just had to go, as expected it took several visits to put things right. i am glad to say that since then i have only needed a check and clean up over the past 4 or 5 years. My point is i spent ages worrying about this, all for nothing. The worry caused me to have more fear than the actual treatments did.


At some point I began to realize most, if not all, of my emotional trigger responses originate in some experience from my childhood. I have been trying to recognize and rationalize them away as an adult. There has been some definite progress, but still some hang-ups. More recently I discovered the hang-ups are caused, at least to some extent, by the fact I was considering the experience as an adult and didn’t think to take into account the inaccurate assumptions came from my perspective as a child.

quote:

Flying was something else that i had always avoided. Yet i met some people in Texas via the net that i wanted to go visit. I gritted my teeth and booked a flight ( Ok i cheated and took a small valium ) But again i realised me fear of flying had held back my joy of travel. Flying now holds no fears, yes i am still nervous but not fearful. I found breaking down fears into worst case scenarios against possible benefits really helps.


I started my possess in a similar fashion, a physiologist once told me to ask myself “What’s the worst that can happen?”; it works well toward evaluating individual situations.
It is also useful to recognize; success is measurable in increments towards a goal, not necessarily reliant on the accomplishment of a goal; as goals can change.
quote:

Your other points about good/bad right and wrong are also interesting. We all see stealing as wrong, yet stealing food to survive is just inherent human nature. Sometimes we just do what needs to be done to get by.

I will refrain from responding to this part for now, only because I am unsure how to do so without leading into my theory.
quote:

To a degree i feel that the same inherent nature, especially the herd instinct, stops people truly taking their own path. We all want to fit in, so we normally act as everyone else does.

I am wondering if the “herd” instinct in humans isn’t misidentified. I was under the impression, one of the main reasons animals form herds is because, for them, there is safety in numbers. As a human I am able to discern, sometimes being in a herd only serves in making me a sitting duck.
Not to mention, unless I’m a leader, by the time I get there everything will have been trampled and the view on the way is nothing but butt.
quote:

NG made the point about fashion earlier, its not so much we all want to look the same, more that we dont want to look different, if that makes sense.
Once one person tries a new fashion, then its easier to make the choice to try it ourself. People have a desire to conform to the enviroment they are in. Probably due to a fear if ridicule from those around us.

We strive for acceptance, which we try to accomplish by becoming the same, and fail to realize; if we could only learn to accept ourselves, others will eventually get over our differences as well. If they don’t, the problem exists within them, not us.
quote:

Human nature in my opinion, is partly learned and partly hard wired. Self Mastery to me, is knowing myself, knowing my limits and trying to push them that bit further. Yet also knowing when to quit and maybe try another day. Its also about sticking to what i think is right and refusing to go along with things i think are wrong, just to be part of the crowd.

Brings to mind the saying; grant me the strength to change the things I can, the ability to accept the things I can not, and the wisdom to know the difference.
It is not always easy to see the difference between actual limits and those that are self-imposed. Self-imposed limits can be overcome, actual limits, we can compensate for.
k

_____________________________

Life is tough, that does not mean it isn't fair.

There is no wrong choice, only consequence.

(in reply to Politesub53)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: Self-Mastery - 12/31/2007 9:55:47 AM   
Aswad


Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

I suppose it depends what you have in mind with regard to perfection?


It's a simple word, backing a simple concept, and with infinite scope.

Health,
al-Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to NorthernGent)
Profile   Post #: 53
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